it's silly that you would join a discussion forum to dismiss legitimate discussion.
community can exist without over-commercialization. one just have to actually care about the community rather than oneself and one's collection.
It's silly that we're even having this discussion. It's simple...if you don't like the price, then don't buy!
Any business willing to work with Geek Hack in providing products we want is beneficial in my eyes. Even if the price is a little bit more expensive than a group buy, as is the case with Originative, I'll be more than willing going directly to a quick and simple transaction with Originative. Sherryton has asked and is listening to what we want to see on his site. The products that will soon be available for purchase will show this to be true.
It's silly that we're even having this discussion. It's simple...if you don't like the price, then don't buy!
I think we do a good job of protecting our own from bad deals, but I think if someone wants something bad enough, there should be no stopping them spending more than you would for something.i mostly agree with that but here's my problem with that way of thinking:
It's silly that we're even having this discussion. It's simple...if you don't like the price, then don't buy!
This is a moot point to argue these days, we are very close to free energy..
Assuming the ruling class doesn't use that to make a space based ion weapon.. World peace would be quite easy...
This is a moot point to argue these days, we are very close to free energy..
Assuming the ruling class doesn't use that to make a space based ion weapon.. World peace would be quite easy...
wtf?
lol what the hell, can I please have some of what you have been drinking?
lol what the hell, can I please have some of what you have been drinking?
what don't you get about what I've said.. it's really easy to imagine.. :D :D
I give you 3 meals a day, and tell you to f off and do whatever you want to do.... That's in the VERY near future...
Stay on topic sir.
Please stop, we all understand that this conversation isn't representative of EVERYTHING EVERYWHERE ALL THE TIME.
This conversation is about whether people selling things for profit on the forum is good, bad or permissible. If you want to have a conversation about how everything is linked and we are all hiding from reality then start a separate thread
Case in point being sherryton and Originative - the community spoke up and he responded in a positive way.
TL;DR: there is a way for commercialism and community to live together in harmony.
What specifically makes you feel that GeekHack is leaning more towards the overly commercial side of the equation?I'd even say that it is the natural progression of enthusiast forums. In the beginning, there are only the ones most interested by the topics involved, the most invested if you will. These also happen to be the people most interested by what a community has to offer, and most likely to contribute. As the community increases in size, so does the potential for profits and the amount of less devoted people who spends less time with it and generally just has a little bit of interest. Naturally, with decreasing input from the community, and increasing potential for commercial interests, there will be tendencies towards the latter.
I think we do a good job of protecting our own from bad deals, but I think if someone wants something bad enough, there should be no stopping them spending more than you would for something.
i mostly agree with that but here's my problem with that way of thinking:
CONSIDERING nearly all of us got into this hobby as a result of some community, and the greater keyboard hobbyist community at large that existed before and without us (comprised of GH, DT, OTD, KBDM, KBT etc),
CONSIDERING those with deep pockets do not comprise the entirety of said community,
CONSIDERING profiteering/auctioneering raises expected prices for products not previously valued at specific amounts,
when somebody spends a lot of money to get something, they cause harm to the community that afforded them the knowledge, the place to post WTB/FS threads, and the continued research and reporting of keyboard related information by individuals.
you have to consider yourself part of a greater collective of people who share your interests.
if, for you, your hobby boils down to "give me what I want, when I want it, for whatever price" it's no longer a hobby but a selfish collection of valuable goods. there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong about selfish behavior, but when it negatively impacts the community by putting products out of reach for reasons other than their existing rarity/demand, you better be able to own up for your behavior and not hide behind a veil of 'capitalism'/'free market'/any other econ 101 BS.
I'm new to this hobby, so I don't know all the backstory of what has happened when some members of the community started commercial ventures, but I'm a small business owner myself. Whenever one of these discussions come up there's always a budding young socialist who wants to make the two concepts out to be diametrically opposed in some way, or try to shame others into bowing to their beliefs. I believe that communities and markets overlap to a very, very large degree. Communities (like markets) feature transactions. Businesses (like communities) are personal.
How does GH or DT or any other forum community feature 'transactions'? There are benefits to associating with people with similar interests. When someone posts to the 'great finds' sub-forum, or posts a lengthy, photo-journal of their latest strip down of a new (or antique) keyboard, or offers up a review -- they are making a transaction into the community fund of knowledge and information. But it would be a mistake to believe that this is completely altruistic. Sure, there are those rare few who only want to be saints -- but in reality most people who post those sort of community-building posts do it because they want to throw another brick on the wall, maybe to encourage someone else to throw another brick on top of theirs at some point (at which point they collect on their investment). Or... they want to show off their expertise! And there's nothing wrong with that impulse.
Markets are similar. Most transactions are emotional. People can buy anywhere, but they really want to buy where they are most comfortable -- for whatever reason.
Also, markets and communities are generally self-regulating -- if they are allowed to be. Screw people over with a lousy product, or poor service and they will go elsewhere and word will spread. The general axiom in business is that if a customer has a good experience, they tell two other people about it. If they have a bad experience... they tell twenty people. This is evident even here on GH, I'm sure. Likewise, if you're a nasty member of a community who does nothing but take without gratitude, then yeah, you're not going to get much out of the community once people realixe what kind of person you are.
A few observations on some statements made thus far:I think we do a good job of protecting our own from bad deals, but I think if someone wants something bad enough, there should be no stopping them spending more than you would for something.
Boilermaker: I don't know you, never bought a thing from you -- you're absolutely right. Buyer beware. Hell, that's what communities are for in the first place. I posted a thread asking people for their advice on getting my first Cherry switch keyboard, listed my requirements, my preferences, and patiently waited. The community responded and they gave me great advice. But I have no inherent right to their advice. It's freely given, and the axiom of buyer beware still holds. Would I be right to buy a keyboard and then come back and accuse those people of giving me bad advice? No -- it was freely given, with NO WARRANTY.
Boilermaker -- charge as much as you think you can get, because that's how markets work. And I hope you make your hobby into something profitable -- because that's a beautiful thing, to do what you love to do and be able to make living at it. Take that money and roll around in it with some perky-breasted minx in a European thong bikini like a ribald Alan Greenspan, I'll cheer you all the way! The surest way to spot the genius? All the mediocrities are confederated against him (or her).
Now, sth, your response to Boilermaker was, well... let's review.Quotei mostly agree with that but here's my problem with that way of thinking:
CONSIDERING nearly all of us got into this hobby as a result of some community, and the greater keyboard hobbyist community at large that existed before and without us (comprised of GH, DT, OTD, KBDM, KBT etc),
CONSIDERING those with deep pockets do not comprise the entirety of said community,
CONSIDERING profiteering/auctioneering raises expected prices for products not previously valued at specific amounts,
#1 -- You have no idea why people came to this community. People could have discovered keyboards first, and then discovered GH or DT or some other keyboard enthusiast forum. Some of the forum members could have been laboring for years on their private hobby.
#2 -- What difference does it make if not everyone in this community has the same amount of disposable income?
#3 -- Profiteering? You mean charging an excessive amount? Sounds like you wish you could purchase something, but... didn't have the lettuce. That's okay, someone just wanted the product more than you and was willing to pay more. That's upsetting, but a fact of life. Also, so what if a previous object sold for $20 and now it's selling for $200 -- that's between the seller and the buyer, not you.
The message you're sending sth is very clear: GH (and other communities) made it all possible for this marketplace to exist in the first place, so participants in that market should owe some sort of fealty to the 'community' (as you define it). And therefore buyers and sellers should ... well, they should do what you want them to do.Quotewhen somebody spends a lot of money to get something, they cause harm to the community that afforded them the knowledge, the place to post WTB/FS threads, and the continued research and reporting of keyboard related information by individuals.
You believe that buyers and sellers didn't make GH happen -- it was the 'community' that made it all possible. Sth, has it ever occurred to you that GH survives as a popular forum partly because it acts as a way for buyers and sellers to meet? That that is in fact one of the primary reasons that some people congregate here? Why buy from an anonymous eBay seller when you can buy from someone you actually know? If the geekhack 'community' rose up in a socialistic revolution against buying and selling and banished it all from the forum.... do you think it wouldn't happen? No, they would go to eBay, or start a new forum not dominated by socialists. Or they would private PM one another, and it would still happen. And you probably still would not have the green to buy what you wanted to buy. So nothing would change, but you could feel good knowing that you were at least an impedance to others with more money. Buying and selling does NOT 'harm the community' -- it helps it. If neither the buyer or seller is upset about the transaction, what's your beef? My guess is you didn't get what you wanted, so now the system is 'broken' as far as you are concerned.Quoteyou have to consider yourself part of a greater collective of people who share your interests.
No I don't! I can be a selfish, self-centered jerk with a dozen CC's to sell for $10 a piece and the geekhack community would consider me a hell of a guy! KMACs for $10, Topre RealForces for $20 (they are imported after all) and if I'm happy with the price and the seller is happy, then why are you involved? Altruism is not a requirement for a working market -- all that is needed is to allow prices to be set by the market, not by nosy people without any money, and the absence of fraud. But even fraud makes the market react to prevent it from occurring again.Quoteif, for you, your hobby boils down to "give me what I want, when I want it, for whatever price" it's no longer a hobby but a selfish collection of valuable goods. there is nothing intrinsically right or wrong about selfish behavior, but when it negatively impacts the community by putting products out of reach for reasons other than their existing rarity/demand, you better be able to own up for your behavior and not hide behind a veil of 'capitalism'/'free market'/any other econ 101 BS.
So, in order to be a 'true' collector you can't make a profit from your collection? Sounds like something a burnt-out, failed grunge musician sitting on a street corner might say when looking up at Kurt Cobain on the Jumbotron and saying, "Stinkin' sellout, man!" (takes a toke) Being a failure is so heroic, isn't it? To know that the pursuit of your hobby has been of absolutely no financial gain whatsoever -- now that's a sure sign of nobility. A sense of community is not what drives your argument; it's simple envy. The items you want are only out of your reach -- not others. Sales are being made. Collecting keyboards is an expensive hobby -- making it into a business is not a bad thing if it allows people to acquire keyboards they want at a price they are willing to pay. You, sth, want to dictate prices ("you better be able to own up for your behavior") for your own benefit -- that's not a market or a community, that's a dictatorship.
you're making some stupid-ass baseless assumptions about who i am and what i believe to make it easier for you to dismiss what i'm saying.
i don't have time to respond to every point but i can assure you that a vast majority of the suppositions you're making are inaccurate or based on a distortion of things i have said in the past.
i don't want to be a part of a community that thinks like you do because that's not a healthy community.
you're making some stupid-ass baseless assumptions about who i am and what i believe to make it easier for you to dismiss what i'm saying.
Explain to me how I misrepresented your position, please.Quotei don't have time to respond to every point but i can assure you that a vast majority of the suppositions you're making are inaccurate or based on a distortion of things i have said in the past.
You don't have to respond to every point I made. I'll make it easy. Pick one point (the weakest point that you believe I made) and explain why it's wrong. Just one, please. And I didn't review everything you've ever said, just the comments in that one post.Quotei don't want to be a part of a community that thinks like you do because that's not a healthy community.
What thought(s) of mine are not conducive to a healthy community? And how do you define a 'healthy' community? I would consider a healthy community a place where people can trade knowledge, and items, freely, without compulsion and with a minimum amount of fraud. So far GH seems to fit the bill. I don't expect it to be perfect -- that's not really reasonable. A 'healthy' community I define as one that self-corrects for the most part when fraud occurs. What's your definition, sth?
you're the only one talking about socialism. your $10 examples are ridiculous. you're comparing me to a fictional bum that doesn't share your values rather than as a real person that exists who also doesn't happen to share your values. i don't understand where you're coming from with this nobility **** either.
quit using hyperbole to make your points; there are enough examples of price gouging and dishonest behavior that actually exist here (though i am not going to be the one to name names; been there done that haters gonna hate).
it sure would be nice if we could get together as a community and agree on that concept, but all it takes is two people who disagree with the majority opinion: a seller with a product and a buyer with money, both with a disregard for their negative affect on the market.
Being a forum owner (3 actually), and long time internet user, what Mkawa said is exactly it.
It comes down to how you manage the companies on the forum.
Companies appear on forums because it's profitable for them. Allowing them to take over your forum may put money in your pocket, but it can drive people away, when that happens the companies also move on to other places. There is no long term benefit to letting companies do whatever they want, they have zero to no concern for the forums health.
Can they co-exist? Of course.
In this particular case, how do you think many small companies get started? Is it good or bad? It depends. So long as they don't interfere with existing group buys it won't change anything and could actually be a boon. Look at the hassle of getting stickers and springs right now? It would be nice to have a place where we could get some of these things when we need it, not months away in a group buy that never happens.
it sure would be nice if we could get together as a community and agree on that concept, but all it takes is two people who disagree with the majority opinion: a seller with a product and a buyer with money, both with a disregard for their negative affect on the market.
I don't get your point; please explain.
It's a really nice ideal to think that we could all just 'do the right thing'. unfortunately i just don't have faith that that is going to happen even with a plurality, let alone a full consensus, because the upper echelons of this hobby consist of spending ludicrous amounts of money to complete a collection or to own a product that is rare and/or valuable.
any attempt to self-regulate by means of forcing sellers to drop their prices could conceivably work in the short term. but that will only last until a compromise of those ideals is made by somebody who does not ascribe to them, most likely because they don't feel any obligation to the framework that allows them to pursue their hobby as it exists. as soon as that happens it is only a matter of time until things become... messy.
It's a really nice ideal to think that we could all just 'do the right thing'. unfortunately i just don't have faith that that is going to happen even with a plurality, let alone a full consensus, because the upper echelons of this hobby consist of spending ludicrous amounts of money to complete a collection or to own a product that is rare and/or valuable. any attempt to self-regulate by means of forcing sellers to drop their prices could conceivably work in the short term. but that will only last until a compromise of those ideals is made by somebody who does not ascribe to them, most likely because they don't feel any obligation to the framework that allows them to pursue their hobby as it exists. as soon as that happens it is only a matter of time until things become... messy.
in defense of sth, markets don't only work unregulated. that's total claptrap. every successful market-based system is a hybrid in which regulation attempts to make up for deficiencies in the market algorithm and actions of realistic, non-ideal players. recall that even in a perfectly ideal case with rational actors and ignoring time to convergence, the simple market algorithm is only pareto, or locally, optimal.
Do we want a community where most if not all members would happily help others out for free, or almost free. Trading, listing great finds on craigslist or ebay, that sort of thing.
Or, would we prefer a forum where we could buy novelty keycaps, and then post pictures of them and not much else.
in defense of sth, markets don't only work unregulated. that's total claptrap. every successful market-based system is a hybrid in which regulation attempts to make up for deficiencies in the market algorithm and actions of realistic, non-ideal players. recall that even in a perfectly ideal case with rational actors and ignoring time to convergence, the simple market algorithm is only pareto, or locally, optimal.
any attempt to self-regulate by means of forcing sellers to drop their prices could conceivably work in the short term. but that will only last until a compromise of those ideals is made by somebody who does not ascribe to them, most likely because they don't feel any obligation to the framework that allows them to pursue their hobby as it exists.
of course in reality, we don't have anything like a perfect world, so we can't even establish or run ideal markets, which means we can't even close to rely on any theoretical proof of even pareto-optimality. in this sense, sth is completely correct.
in defense of krogenar and others, we have to face the fact that we live in a system in which there is currency, goods, pricing, and it's almost impossible to just decide on an optimal set of prices from on high at all points in time. we are all individuals here, with limited information, back by a variety of resources and amounts of those resources, and ultimately what comes out of this is some kind of marketplace, in the most colloquial sense of the word. hence, we have to think about how to make this market better for everyone, and in some cases this is going to mean stepping back and letting stuff happen. if Alice really really wants something from Bob, and Alice has a lot of something (CASH MONEY) that Bob really wants, there is very little we can do to stop Alice from exchanging large amounts of resources for an asset of Bob's. If the transaction doesn't happen on geekhack, it will happen on DT, or BT, or HF, or any of the other practically uncountably many places on the web.
I believe Demik once said something about GH turning in some kind of "Look at me, I have bigger e-pennis than you" kind of forum. He didn't tell it with those words but that was the point if I remember correctly. People in this forum is no longer interested in the Hobby. They just want to collect the most expensive items and share the pictures in Geekhack Media subforum to compare their e-pennis size.
User 1 : Hey look my new Skull arrived[shows picture of a skull]
User 2 : Oh boy your collection sucks[shows picture with TONS of skulls]
User 3: Both of your collections suck because I've received a Box [shows picture of a box]
User 1: WOWOWOWO! (He's excited because he has shown a Box) Where can I buy that box?
The only reason a lot of users are joining this forum it's because it has become popular to own mechanical keyboards. Some time ago they even looked at us like those rare "keyboards geeks" that spend 100$ in a keyboard and doesn't even have a colourful screen or shiny leds and made laugh of that. Now some of them are joining GH and the only way they see to adapt to this community is by buying expensive items to show that they're worth of this forum. For this reason GH derailed to a Marketplace where people seems excited with the single idea of buying/selling in mind. Sharing finds has started to be something really rare. The only idea of organising something for free or manage GB without earning money makes some people sick. They only care for $$$$$$$$$, I can see their faces:
I'm not saying that every single user that joined GH recently is like that, I've been a noob too but not that kind of noob, at least I was interested in learning something in the forums and share knowledge. I've never been interested in making money here in Geekhack like some are.
It's nice to see that there is still some great people left (Old and new) but reading some posts in this thread and some other threads makes me think If It would be better to stay out of this forum for a while and see if the attitude changes.
I can remember those days were Click Clack keys were in stock for weeks on EK without being sold because people thought they were expensive. Now people has changed their mind and it seems that the more you pay for something the more it's worth it like if you were receiving badges for buying items at ultra-expensive prices.
I feel like all this market talk is beside the point. The issue for me is not rights and efficiencies, but the flavor of the community. If geekhack is a place where clacks purchased on EK for $30 are resold immediately for > $100, the sense of community diminishes IMO.
Don't you dare tell me that I sound like a sour old fart who can't afford clacks, because I don't give a damn about them, per se.
Pretty much. This is a great read, however, and Krogenar has made some excellent points in my opinion.
I think the one thing that could help the community the most would be to simply allow threadcrapping in the marketplace, within the limits of respectful conversation. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I just sold that same keyboard for $20 less, yours might sell faster at that price;" and another to say, "Quit being such a douchebag with your high prices!" If personal attacks are moderated without bias or the need for explanation, I think a little threadcrapping can be a good thing. That's how the marketplace works on DT, and it seems to work well.
If you are someone who sells things often using our classifieds forum, and you want threadcrapping to continue to be disallowed, please use this thread to explain your position.
This was so well said, and seems to have been subsequently ignored. I'm on board with Mr. samwisekoi.Case in point being sherryton and Originative - the community spoke up and he responded in a positive way.
TL;DR: there is a way for commercialism and community to live together in harmony.
Hmmm. As a person who missed the window between his web pre-launch and the great hullabaloo after which it came down, I'll buy that the on-topic feedback worked for the positive. And that this thread seems a useful discussion. I don't think that having this discussion in the "great finds" thread about his site was helpful to the community. As someone interested in keyboards and keycaps, I wanted to at least SEE what was up with the new site. But what I found was this discussion instead.
I am here because I am interested in keyboards and keycaps, but mostly keyboards. I like the aesthetics of a nice PBT or DS set of keycaps with some novelty keys tossed in for looks. I don't have a CC key because I don't see the value, and only have a single anthropomorphic keycap because MMB had a closeout sale and I got a gasmask 'cap for under twenty bucks. But I've bought a bunch of stuff from Techkeys, Imsto and WASD, and most of my keyboards from classifieds and great finds here.
I'm not a vendor, but I have started a few buys for items that I - personally - couldn't find anywhere else, and thought the community needed to have. I didn't spend thirty grand on an MOQ for Cherry-mold keycaps, but I did spend more than a few bucks getting media keys custom-made so I would have something to show on a group buy. (Sign up for those, please!) And if any of my group buys ever makes it to the point of having leftover cash, I'll donate it to GH. But that is because I have another job that pays my rent and keeps my kids fed and clothed.
And except for scale, I don't see a difference between putting up a few hundred bucks to make something available and putting up a few (many) thousands to make something bigger available. Except perhaps courage.
Sherryton the person has signed up for a damn Elvish keyboard; Sherryton's enterprises have made it possible for me and others to have things we wouldn't otherwise have. Sherryton the person posts, runs group buys, helps other people make group buys, and is generally courteous to everyone here. Sherryton's enterprise has -- in the longest recession in recorded history -- invested significant coin in actually having something made that we can choose to buy.
Large German plastics firms don't invest in obsolete tooling unless they have a market. Entrepreneurs don't invest in product unless they can cover their costs and maybe make a buck for the effort. And unless we want to be a community of people who sell each other old pieces of plastic harvested from old keyboards, we need companies, entrepreneurs and individuals who are willing to take risks on our behalf.
In my personal opinion, there is room for both the slow, low-cost group buy path and the commercial path. Both are helpful to this community. Sherryton has paid his dues here, and continues (I hope) to comment and contribute. And right now, at this very moment, HE has more money on the line with those keycap sets than anyone else.
Good for him. And thanks as well.
Now I am going to go check to see if his site is back up. I'd really like to see that Olivetti set.
Peace and harmony, y'all,
- Ron | samwisekoiShow Image(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)
But why is there a need to post it in the thread? Just send a PM stating that the price might be dropped to sell, who cares if someone thinks that the price is too high? If it is then the item won't sell and the seller might drop the price.
I think the one thing that could help the community the most would be to simply allow threadcrapping in the marketplace, within the limits of respectful conversation. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I just sold that same keyboard for $20 less, yours might sell faster at that price;" and another to say, "Quit being such a douchebag with your high prices!" If personal attacks are moderated without bias or the need for explanation, I think a little threadcrapping can be a good thing. That's how the marketplace works on DT, and it seems to work well.
On the subject of auctions, I have said before that I believe auctions should always be handled off-site. eBay has protections setup for buyer and seller, and their bidding system is well-known. GH as a forum doesn't have the resources to deal with auctions.
I think the one thing that could help the community the most would be to simply allow threadcrapping in the marketplace, within the limits of respectful conversation. It's one thing to say, "Hey, I just sold that same keyboard for $20 less, yours might sell faster at that price;" and another to say, "Quit being such a douchebag with your high prices!" If personal attacks are moderated without bias or the need for explanation, I think a little threadcrapping can be a good thing. That's how the marketplace works on DT, and it seems to work well.
I think that's a good idea, but might be tough on moderators. Who's to determine what is or is not theadcrapping? One person's threadcrap is another person's useful advice, right?
I honestly don't see how that diminishes the 'sense of community'. Let's say that people bought the CCs from EK for $30 and then resold them a month or two later (tired of the CC, needs to fund purchase of something else, etc.) and they choose to sell for $30 -- does the 'sense of community' remain unharmed? More importantly, would the 'sense of community' be enhanced if he gave the CC away for free?
1. It clutters up a thread which is about selling an item, muddling up genuine comments with a random conversation.
2. It can take over a FS thread and massively derail it.
3. It doesn't help is anyway, the thread is about advertising an item for sale. If someone thinks that the price or information is wrong then they can send the seller a friendly PM. If the price is deemed unfair then I don't think that comes into it, someone might be willing to pay the price and that is their prerogative.
1. It clutters up a thread which is about selling an item, muddling up genuine comments with a random conversation.
We're not talking about random conversation. Most "threadcrapping" is comments pertaining to the item being sold.Quote2. It can take over a FS thread and massively derail it.
Thread only gets derailed if members start discussing something totally unrelated. Comments about the item for sale do not derail the thread. Hell, the seller gets free "bumps" by it.Quote3. It doesn't help is anyway, the thread is about advertising an item for sale. If someone thinks that the price or information is wrong then they can send the seller a friendly PM. If the price is deemed unfair then I don't think that comes into it, someone might be willing to pay the price and that is their prerogative.
It doesn't help in what way? Doesn't help the seller who can't answer questions regarding his item or its price? It certainly helps other members decide if something is a good value or a ripoff.
Just because someone is willing to pay an inflated price for an item doesn't make it right to profit off fellow members, who may be uninformed as to an item's value.
In the former case, I think the head-fi is THE canonical example of crass commercialization ruining a great community. Many years ago, when I was young and even stupider, I spent quite a bit of time on headwize and the earliest revisions of head-fi, learning to hack, building stuff, and generally having a grand old time. In those heady days, open source designs, cooperation, civility, and support for new users were the principles by which the community lived. Fast-forward 10 years, and now head-fi is a huge mess of advertisements for obfuscated implementations of circuits that have not changed in a decade and are described not without any sense of technical specificity but only with adjectives that appeal exclusively to emotion. Further, the userbase seems to be stuck in a horrible cycle of buying and selling these heavily advertised products while arguing about exactly which appeals to emotion are best. Meanwhile, all the hackers seem to have moved on, and I can find no evidence that the forum is able to incubate or produce cool community projects anymore..
I've only been a member of the community for a couple of months, but it would appear that the success and/or draw of GeekHack is feeding this into a cyclical process. As more people learn about the benefits of a mechanical keyboard, more people will find GeekHack. The more people that become members, demand for products and services will increase. As demand increases, companies will see an opportunity to provide a good, or service in order to make a profit.
So a new question...
If commercialism is inevitable then should the goal be to provide more information to level the scales? If the answer is yes, then how do we do that?
I don't think that the market place is broken so I don't see any need to change it.
http://wiki.simplemachines.org/smf/Karma
How about a "Limited Edition" run of PBT dye-sub litster smiley keys? Say 50-100 max, each numbered like lithographs?
(Attachment Link)
Original Art
SP has DCS ‐ 1X ROW 1 ‐ YELLOW (YBX) in inventory, so we'd only need to get them printed up.
Or perhaps litster could contribute to the community by making each one special and unique? Then perhaps a Dutch auction in benefit of GH?
Yo litster: I'll buy the keycaps and mange the auction if you'll do the customization! (Seriously.)
- Ron | samwisekoiShow Image(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/M.png)
There is only one way that the market approach can work in a community, and that is a completely un-regulated approach. That way markets aren't manipulated by authority and consumers can vote with their dollar.
But what they really SHOULD do is vote with their dollar - that's the only way consumers can control markets. If you don't like the pricing or the product or whatever then shut the **** up and don't buy it. Period.
Yeah, people should be free to sell food with additives that cause cancer - when their customers die 20 years later and their sales drop off they'll regret it!
Ok: why do you confuse the idea of an unregulated market with a a market WHERE SELLERS ARE FREE FROM CRITICISM? Apparently you don't know what regulation is, and you hate free speech... You also don't get what an online community is - it's a place where people TALK about the stuff they buy and might might buy. If you are against that sharing of opinion, you are against the idea of there being a community.
Or perhaps litster could contribute to the community by making each one special and unique? Then perhaps a Dutch auction in benefit of GH?
I feel like all this market talk is beside the point. The issue for me is not rights and efficiencies, but the flavor of the community. If geekhack is a place where clacks purchased on EK for $30 are resold immediately for > $100, the sense of community diminishes IMO. Don't you dare tell me that I sound like a sour old fart who can't afford clacks, because I don't give a damn about them, per se.
mkawa still said it best in his head-fi vs. neogaf post.
Or perhaps litster could contribute to the community by making each one special and unique? Then perhaps a Dutch auction in benefit of GH?
Although on a side note to that, you're more than welcome to give Jdcarpe his $63 back if that's how you feel about auctions.
Or perhaps litster could contribute to the community by making each one special and unique? Then perhaps a Dutch auction in benefit of GH?Although on a side note to that, you're more than welcome to give Jdcarpe his $63 back if that's how you feel about auctions.
However, all winning bidders need to pay only the lowest qualifying (successful) bid. If there are more successful bids than items available, priority goes to the bidders who submitted their bids first.
Yeah, people should be free to sell food with additives that cause cancer - when their customers die 20 years later and their sales drop off they'll regret it!
Actually not only do I believe they should be free to sell what they want, but the worst thing abot regulation is it legitimizes that very issue, since you can't trust government bodies to regulate what is healthy or good for everyone.
I have accepted the fact that life is filled with risk.
QuoteOk: why do you confuse the idea of an unregulated market with a a market WHERE SELLERS ARE FREE FROM CRITICISM? Apparently you don't know what regulation is, and you hate free speech... You also don't get what an online community is - it's a place where people TALK about the stuff they buy and might might buy. If you are against that sharing of opinion, you are against the idea of there being a community.
I was being sarcastic dude: honestly I don't care if sellers are criticized publicly.
QuoteI have accepted the fact that life is filled with risk.
I doubt it. I suspect you have, by global standards, an unusually soft and well-cushioned life.
QuoteI have accepted the fact that life is filled with risk.
I doubt it. I suspect you have, by global standards, an unusually soft and well-cushioned life.
yeah but he's an anarchist.
I mean, really, what's the point? I'm not European. I don't plan on being European. So who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists, it still doesn't change the fact that I don't own a car.
This makes no sense at all. It's like saying "Let's legalize murder, because we still have *some* of them even though we have cops." In fact, food safety and child labour laws have all been enormously effective over the past century, as have government standards to increase vehicle safety over the past couple of decades. And arguing that you can't trust "government bodies" is semantically meaningless - trust them to a -perfect job? Or a job that it us reasonably effective? If you can't define your ideas better than this, you really don't have any ideas - just things you say.
I doubt it. I suspect you have, by global standards, an unusually soft and well-cushioned life.
I think he's a libertarian: anarchism is much more intellectually consistent.
Hey now, I'm a libertarian. Tread lightly there. :)
Hey now, I'm a libertarian. Tread lightly there. :)
You have a Trekkie icon, so I think we all took that for granted.
If you REALLY think any laws are "effective", no offense, but you know nothing about legal systems.
Regagrdless, I fundamentally disagree that guns should be pointed at peaceful people in order to force them to sell or not sell anything.
Of course I have a soft and well-cushioned life by global standards. Everyone who lives in the USA does.
But unlike you I have accepted the fact that life is inherently filled with risk. Because unlike you I don't need to legitimize a monopoly on violence to be comfortable with my life.
watch it, i kill and eat libertarians for breakfast, during which i watch star trek.
If you REALLY think any laws are "effective", no offense, but you know nothing about legal systems.Argument by assertion: an intelligent 8 year old can explain why it is frakked, but it's the basis of the libertarian intellectual diet!QuoteRegagrdless, I fundamentally disagree that guns should be pointed at peaceful people in order to force them to sell or not sell anything.So you wouldn't use force to stop the sale of slaves? Of children to paedophiles? Of poison laced food? Of an h-bomb to al qaida?QuoteOf course I have a soft and well-cushioned life by global standards. Everyone who lives in the USA does.Congratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.QuoteBut unlike you I have accepted the fact that life is inherently filled with risk. Because unlike you I don't need to legitimize a monopoly on violence to be comfortable with my life.Repeating this cliche makes you sound like a Moonie. It's meaningless junk that shows that you have no ability to think rationally, because you are confusing two quite different concepts:
1. The contention that life has an element of risk that can't be reduced to zero
and
2. The question of how well regulation works at reducing risk
This is a huge intellectual fail. You are literally incapable of reasonably rational thought when you make errors like this. This isn't about your political views, it is about the laws of logic.
watch it, i kill and eat libertarians for breakfast, during which i watch star trek.
Wouldn't it be better to kill the libertarians in advance and smoke cure them? They'd be tastier, last longer, and your mornings would be less hassled, leaving you time to watch a man's SF show like reboot BSG...
Actually, response #3 sounds like someone making excuses to me. If I were black, I wouldn't want someone else making excuses as to which school I attended, the conditions in which I was raised, or the prison system targeting my racial/ethnic group.
Actually, response #3 sounds like someone making excuses to me. If I were black, I wouldn't want someone else making excuses as to which school I attended, the conditions in which I was raised, or the prison system targeting my racial/ethnic group.
Actually, response #3 sounds like someone making excuses to me. If I were black, I wouldn't want someone else making excuses as to which school I attended, the conditions in which I was raised, or the prison system targeting my racial/ethnic group.
People who say this are usually the first ones who want special treatment when they have minor hiccups with their life - if they have flu during an exam, hayfever, whatever. But mention that blacks are enormously more liable to go to jail than white Americans for the same, often victimless, offenses and much more likely to go to inadequate schools, and suddenly some white middle class kid is ***certain*** of what he'd want if his life was totally different...
Sup is that black people (and any other race of people) are humans, too. Why must one group of humans be treated differently than another?
Aren't the people who see racism to be an issue the same ones who are promoting a racial divide between people?No. racism is a huge issue and there's already a racial divide in this country. You're confusing symptoms with causes.
Sup is that black people (and any other race of people) are humans, too. Why must one group of humans be treated differently than another?
http://www.allgov.com/news/top-stories/black-americans-given-longer-sentences-than-white-americans-for-same-crimes?news=843984
A new academic study of 58,000 federal criminal cases has found significant disparities in sentencing for blacks and whites arrested for the same crimes. The research led to the conclusion that African-Americans’ jail time was almost 60% longer than white sentences.
According to M. Marit Rehavi of the University of British Columbia and Sonja B. Starr, who teaches criminal law at the University of Michigan Law School, the racial disparities can be explained “in a single prosecutorial decision: whether to file a charge carrying a mandatory minimum sentence….Black men were on average more than twice as likely to face a mandatory minimum charge as white men were, holding arrest offense as well as age and location constant.” Prosecutors are about twice as likely to impose mandatory minimums on black defendants as on white defendants.
P.S. I just want to say, it doesn't bother me that either of you have a differing position than mine on these issues. I'm just glad you HAVE an position, and are willing to defend it. :)
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Actually, response #3 sounds like someone making excuses to me. If I were black, I wouldn't want someone else making excuses as to which school I attended, the conditions in which I was raised, or the prison system targeting my racial/ethnic group.
OMFG. this is exactly what's wrong with libertarianism. Sup with individuals perpetuating institutional racism?
Quote from: TheGreatAmphibianPling
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TheGreatAmphibianPling, you are my GHero.
Congratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.isn't there equality in the united states?
HAHAHAHAHAHACongratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.isn't there equality in the united states?
HAHAHAHAHAHACongratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.isn't there equality in the united states?
After adjusting for everything, our income inequality is on par with China, Malaysia and Mozambique.
income inequality isn't a problem... Doesn't matter how "rich" you are on paper..It may not matter when you have money, but to those who are poor, it certainly matters.
You eat 3 meals a day, poop 1.5 times a day, and live to ~70
i wasn't talking about income inequalityHAHAHAHAHAHACongratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.isn't there equality in the united states?
After adjusting for everything, our income inequality is on par with China, Malaysia and Mozambique.
Income inequality often goes right along with other inequality.i wasn't talking about income inequalityHAHAHAHAHAHACongratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.isn't there equality in the united states?
After adjusting for everything, our income inequality is on par with China, Malaysia and Mozambique.
So you wouldn't use force to stop the sale of slaves? Of children to paedophiles? Of poison laced food? Of an h-bomb to al qaida?
Congratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.
Repeating this cliche makes you sound like a Moonie. It's meaningless junk that shows that you have no ability to think rationally, because you are confusing two quite different concepts:
1. The contention that life has an element of risk that can't be reduced to zero
and
2. The question of how well regulation works at reducing risk
This is a huge intellectual fail. You are literally incapable of reasonably rational thought when you make errors like this. This isn't about your political views, it is about the laws of logic.
Plus your avatar is Spock, a member of a species that would put Ayn Rand in a mental hospital (rather than having her executed for crimes against literature the way any sane species would.)
So you wouldn't use force to stop the sale of slaves? Of children to paedophiles? Of poison laced food? Of an h-bomb to al qaida?
Nope. Unlike you I am a peaceful person
and unlike you I don't legitimize even my own slavery now.
Congratulations on knowing about your own society: a lot of black inner city kids face a higher risk of violence than most third worlders, not to mention poorer schools, a prison system that disproportionately targets blacks, etc.
That is fair, but global poverty is a very serious problem caused by statism.
I know that crises of war and poverty are caused by statism
Repeating this cliche makes you sound like a Moonie. It's meaningless junk that shows that you have no ability to think rationally, because you are confusing two quite different concepts:
1. The contention that life has an element of risk that can't be reduced to zero
and
2. The question of how well regulation works at reducing risk
This is a huge intellectual fail. You are literally incapable of reasonably rational thought when you make errors like this. This isn't about your political views, it is about the laws of logic.
Cliche? Lol. It's a fact that destroys the statist mindset that a monopoly on violence is crucial to preventing risk and you know it.
That's why you're getting defensive.
Laws of logic? Do you actually believe that risk in life can be reduced to zero?
It's meaningless junk that shows that you have no ability to think rationally, because you are confusing two quite different concepts:
1. The contention that life has an element of risk that can't be reduced to zero
and
2. The question of how well regulation works at reducing risk
This is a huge intellectual fail.
Hey now, I'm a libertarian. Tread lightly there.
:)
I mean, really, what's the point? I'm not European. I don't plan on being European. So who gives a crap if they're socialists? They could be fascist anarchists, it still doesn't change the fact that I don't own a car.
watch it, i kill and eat libertarians for breakfast, during which i watch star trek.
Or perhaps litster could contribute to the community by making each one special and unique? Then perhaps a Dutch auction in benefit of GH?Although on a side note to that, you're more than welcome to give Jdcarpe his $63 back if that's how you feel about auctions.
Wait, what? I don't have Jdcarpe's $63, and I am cool with auctions. (Jdcarpe, please tell me if I owe you money!)
I said Dutch Auction because (according to my understanding and Wikipedia):Quote from: WikipediaHowever, all winning bidders need to pay only the lowest qualifying (successful) bid. If there are more successful bids than items available, priority goes to the bidders who submitted their bids first.
So if we had a Dutch auction, everyone would pay the lowest successful bid. That seemed fairer to me, but any other format is ok as well.
Was I misunderstood or am I misunderstanding?
Seriously, I'll buy the blanks and if litster will do the artwork, all proceeds can go to GH. Isn't that a good thing?
- Ron | samwisekoiShow Image(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/M.png)
What does your ownership of a car have to do with the utility of capitalism versus socialism?in socialist times, my granddad had three cars. i own none. *sigh*
What does your ownership of a car have to do with the utility of capitalism versus socialism?in socialist times, my granddad had three cars. i own none. *sigh*
an emergency vehicle driver.Was he a member of the politburo?What does your ownership of a car have to do with the utility of capitalism versus socialism?in socialist times, my granddad had three cars. i own none. *sigh*