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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tauburn on Fri, 15 February 2013, 17:22:23
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They can't possibly cost that much to manufacture. Unless it's like mac computers where they are expensive for the sake of being "cool", why hasn't any company offered a topre keyboard that isn't preposterously expensive? Wouldn't they make a killing off it?
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Why would they?
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They do! You can get $5 Topre keyboards at walmart
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Why would they?
...because lots of people would buy them...
They do! You can get $5 Topre keyboards at walmart
o u
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We have so many options on Cherry based boards because the switches are modular and can be purchased on the open market...therefore building a new board requires basic production of a pcb, case, plate ...a little soldering, buy some key caps on the open market as well and you're there. The Topre requires a specialized rubber membrane and contact layer an specialized key caps...not to mention licensing of the topre design. When you buy a cherry switch, the license is built in.
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i didn't mean an individual i meant a company that already makes keyboards
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I think that Topre has patents, plus its a niche market with people in the niche willing to pay the current prices.
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Why hasn't someone made an affordable Topre yet?
^ is the first time I have ever seen the words "affordable" and "Topre" in the same sentence...
The better question is: Why are Topre's so expensive? I mean, does it have anything to do with patents on the Topre design? It really doesn't make sense that a standard rubber dome costs between $10-$40, yet a rubber dome with a spring underneath it costs $250-$350 bucks. Never did make any sense to me...
EDIT: Dammit SmallFry, you beat me to it with the patents comment! :))
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Why hasn't someone made an affordable Topre yet?
^ is the first time I have ever seen the words "affordable" and "Topre" in the same sentence...
The better question is: Why are Topre's so expensive? I mean, does it have anything to do with patents on the Topre design? It really doesn't make sense that a standard rubber dome costs between $10-$40, yet a rubber dome with a spring underneath it costs $250-$350 bucks. Never did make any sense to me...
I concur! An affordable Topre is essentially any rubber dome.
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Capacitive PCB more expensive than membrane sheet.
Dye-sub PBT more expensive than ABS
I don't think that accounts for the entire price difference, but just throwing it out there.
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I don't think it's an easy design to make, not to mention patents and demand.
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We considered Topre switches initially since we saw that there was almost no availability of them in the US, especially not at reasonable prices. However, the reason we opted to abandon the idea of using Topre switches is that they have no public face or contact information available. We found an email address for their US branch, but never received a reply. Also, Elite Keyboards is the sole distributor of Topre switch keyboards in the US, and that could mean either they're the only ones because no one else distributes them, or because they have exclusive rights to them. In either case, we determined it wasn't worth the effort of trying to track down a company that makes it extremely difficult to work with them when we could more easily work with manufacturers that can already provide us with Cherry MX switches that are considered great quality as it is.
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Well first of all, Dye Subbed PBTs are about $100 more expensive than normal Lasered ABS keycaps. Simply switching to ABS keycaps would bring Realforces down to about may $10-$20 more expensive than an equivalent Filco. And then... I'm pretty sure Topre manufactures a bunch of affordable Topre keyboards, the thing is they do not sell these keyboards to the public at all, they are only sold direct to companies making large orders, would make sense why when these keyboards are sold used, instead of going for the $200 or so of a normal used Topre they are sold for around $100. (I got my HE0100 for $90)
About from what the guys at MechanicalKeyboards.com have said when they contacting Topre, EK has exclusive rights to Topre in NA (And Keyboardco for EU or some parts of EU). Also from general experience with mid-sized Japanese companies, most of the time you're not going to get a good reply if any unless you contact the Japanese branch.
EDIT: Also I would not expect them to release a keyboard without PBTs, Topre is a plastics company, I'm pretty sure they make the PBT keycaps in their own factories (Which would also make sense why they can't make big PBT spacebars, their factories aren't tooled for it and they don't want to retool it.)
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Are Topres as expensive in the countries where they have a market?
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Well first of all, Dye Subbed PBTs are about $100 more expensive than normal Lasered ABS keycaps.
*coughcough* UTTER BULL**** *coughcough* COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL. *slap*
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For this simple reason..
Cherry-mx >> Topre
....BOOM... SWISH.... ;D
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Well first of all, Dye Subbed PBTs are about $100 more expensive than normal Lasered ABS keycaps.
*coughcough* UTTER BULL**** *coughcough* COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL. *slap*
Agreed.
All you have to do is look at the Klaxxon group buy and you can immediately see how much markup there is for low volumes verses high. SP wants $70 for a single base set, but order 200 sets and suddenly it comes down to $22 a base set.
Do that same deal in China and it would be 1/10th that price and PBT isn't really much more expensive than ABS.
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Well first of all, Dye Subbed PBTs are about $100 more expensive than normal Lasered ABS keycaps.
*coughcough* UTTER BULL**** *coughcough* COMPLETE AND UTTER BULL. *slap*
agreed on bull excrements.
here you can buy a keyboard with pbt's, which is similar in feel to 55g topre, for $79:
http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/QTRD
the only difference being membrane switch. is this difference worth $221?
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Everyone crying foul at Topre's prices clearly have never used a Topre board before. Just because it uses rubber doesn't mean it's as cheap to make as regular rubber dome boards. Read: you're forgetting about the rest of its body and frame, which are of MUCH higher quality and are sturdier than any Filco/CM Storm board I've tried.
Pre-emptive strike: Don't listen to tp4tissue's input on the build quality of Realforce bodies.
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Everyone crying foul at Topre's prices clearly have never used a Topre board before. Just because it uses rubber doesn't mean it's as cheap to make as regular rubber dome boards. Read: you're forgetting about the rest of its body and frame, which are of MUCH higher quality and are sturdier than any Filco/CM Storm board I've tried.
Pre-emptive strike: Don't listen to tp4tissue's input on the build quality of Realforce bodies.
;D
My 87 body was fine.. It wasn't however "more" sturdy than a filco...
If you're talking about the way the "keys-traveled" yes they are more sturdy feeling than the cherry mx switches, because there's less side to side movement on the way down..
Though I find this to be a "Flaw" rather than a plus. Because key travel is "not" a situation that requires high engineering tolerance.
The fact that Cherry mx has a bit of wobble to it actually improves the typing because this allows for smooth angles and less friction.
I don't remember if my top cover was loose like many of the "other guys" on GH reported..
"TOPRE" fanboism hinges on the fact that these poor kids were tricked into attending a really bad circus, and now they're adamant about getting every one else there, so they don't feel as bad.
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It's a niche market. It's not going to be cheaper if they aren't as big as cherrys.
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Don't listen to tp4tissue's input on the build quality of Realforce bodies.
tp4 was the actual person who unintentionally talked me into buying a 87u.
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The fact that Cherry mx has a bit of wobble to it actually improves the typing because this allows for smooth angles and less friction.
I find that Topre has lower friction than all Cherry switches, except maybe vintage Cherry MX Blue, even if there is less wobble.
They are the best rubber domes, but not that much better than the next best rubber dome that costs less than half as much.
There is some good engineering in there, that I think that other keyboard manufacturers should mimic -- both rubber dome and mechanical manufacturers could take a few hints for new keyboard models, and without a substantial price increase.
With a Topre, you pay more for the features, the engineering, high tolerance manufacturing and the solid, luxurious feel, but most of all I think that you pay more for Topre being able to put a "Made in Japan" sticker on the keyboard.
It is not like Filco -- a Japanese brand, but where manufacturing is outsourced to a low-wage country.
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Don't listen to tp4tissue's input on the build quality of Realforce bodies.
tp4 was the actual person who unintentionally talked me into buying a 87u.
My intention was never to Talk people OUT of buying TOPRE..
My intentions were always to Give people a "REALISTIC" expectation of what TOPRE is.....
Because the rest of the crowd here are like those amp peddlers on headfi, dreaming up random adjectives to describe the feel of the switches..
For example the chap above me describes topre as "LUXURIOUS -feel"... WTF does -luxurious- have to do with key feel...
On the other hand..
My description:
Topre = Rubber dome+ less wobble.
If you expect or currently believe that there's anything MORE to topre, You're fking delusional....
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Less wobble..smoother transition..defined, not mushy, satisfying bottom out...
They are definitely different than standard rubber dome keyboards...but they are very similar at the same time...
You say your intention is to give them a realistic expectation but really you're giving them your opinion based on the fact that you had one for a short while and you were so upset about it, you're trying to convince others of the same...Your experience with Topre is limited..you're going off of memory..you couldn't even remember that they make less noise on the way up than Cherry....
Topres are great for typing...they actually make Cherry switches feel a bit cheap in comparison...but I don't like Topres for gaming...I don't like that there are limited options keycaps wise...keyboard wise...If I had to pick one only, I'd rather go with Cherry...strictly because I think they're good for everything.
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topre is a worthless membrane keyboard
if you pay $300 for one of those you are a sucker
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See... I don't have a problem with differing opinions. But the problem I have with tp4tissue is the outright lies he writes. Which is why arguing with him is a useless endeavor. Ciao! See you later Tp!
All the things he's said about Topre's being less accurate, and them being not that more more sturdy than Filco's are all lies. That's all I can say.
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topre is a worthless membrane keyboard
if you pay $300 for one of those you are a sucker
You are a ****ing idiot.
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See... I don't have a problem with differing opinions. But the problem I have with tp4tissue is the outright lies he writes. Which is why arguing with him is a useless endeavor. Ciao! See you later Tp!
All the things he's said about Topre's being less accurate, and them being not that more more sturdy than Filco's are all lies. That's all I can say.
You are correct.
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Well first of all, Dye Subbed PBTs are about $100 more expensive than normal Lasered ABS keycaps
nope
it's more of an exclusivity game when it comes to licensing the switches on top of the higher production cost of each switch.
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If I had to pick one only, I'd rather go with Cherry...strictly because I think they're good for everything.
But not very good.
Cherry's weakest area is, strangely, touch typing. Few people prefer a linear switch for that task, and Cherry's tactile switches are all out of kilter in one way or another: Too light, too stiff, too noisy. At least ALPS et al. seems to have "hit the spot" for typists a few times (and hit some real lows, too, unfortunately). If Cherry could make a very good tactile switch, then I'd be sold on getting a premium-priced board that uses them.
Let's face it, Cherry aims for factory/industrial/retail applications and a bit towards gaming too. There's no other explanation I can think of that describes the level of indifference that causes collectors to constantly hold out hope that the next obscure MX color they find will be the one that gives them tactility without making them stuff the keyboard in the closet after a couple weeks of use. Switches like green and white are obscure because Cherry anticipated a few vendors would like stiffer spacebar switches... that's all. So now GH is full of grail-seekers buying into keyboards with all spacebar switches. :))
MX blue! That lovely switch with moderate actuation force... But oh my ears!!! Why would Cherry want to hurt our ears? Answer: They don't, and the vaunted MX blue (regardless of their current intentions toward the switch) was likely never designed for the office or the home. It seems obvious to me that it was made with a SHRILL sound so that it could be heard in a noisy environment.
I now return you to our regularly scheduled program: Boundary-bending Rubber Domes and the People Who Will Never Get To Try Them...
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I feel like the Topre price issue might actually be, in part, a marketing problem. No matter how much better the switch is than your typical contact-based rubber dome, if it were sold for less, would they be able to convince people with no interest in typical dome switches to try them?
Bit of a case study...a while back, Noppoo released a version of their Choc Pro keyboard with a capacitive dome switch. It didn't use a spring for sensing, but rather represented a revival of the old "foil and foam" capacitive sensing technology-- which, perhaps, might not be quite the same, but is still a form of non-contact-based sensing and could be expected to carry the advantages of such. The domes were individual, rather than in a sheet, and placed under some rather fancy-shaped plungers (which featured the Cherry compatible "plus and ring" stem design used by previous foil and foam switches). Pricing was set to be the same as other versions of the Choc Pro, with marketing continuing to call it a mechanical keyboard (which is a designation under which many will include Topres).
And how did people react to this? Well, you had lots of people, none of whom seemed to have tried it, crying out "OMG RUBBER DOME DO NOT BUY" and "Noppoo is a horrible, dishonest company for trying to foist such a thing on us". Sales were low, if significant price drops are any indication, and the the capacitive version was quite quickly discontinued (or allowed to disappear from TaoBao, at any rate).
That case is the closest I can think of to an attempt to make an affordable Topre, and it seems to have been quite a disaster.
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If I had to pick one only, I'd rather go with Cherry...strictly because I think they're good for everything.
But not very good.
Cherry's weakest area is, strangely, touch typing. Few people prefer a linear switch for that task, and Cherry's tactile switches are all out of kilter in one way or another: Too light, too stiff, too noisy. At least ALPS et al. seems to have "hit the spot" for typists a few times (and hit some real lows, too, unfortunately). If Cherry could make a very good tactile switch, then I'd be sold on getting a premium-priced board that uses them.
Let's face it, Cherry aims for factory/industrial/retail applications and a bit towards gaming too. There's no other explanation I can think of that describes the level of indifference that causes collectors to constantly hold out hope that the next obscure MX color they find will be the one that gives them tactility without making them stuff the keyboard in the closet after a couple weeks of use. Switches like green and white are obscure because Cherry anticipated a few vendors would like stiffer spacebar switches... that's all. So now GH is full of grail-seekers buying into keyboards with all spacebar switches. :))
MX blue! That lovely switch with moderate actuation force... But oh my ears!!! Why would Cherry want to hurt our ears? Answer: They don't, and the vaunted MX blue (regardless of their current intentions toward the switch) was likely never designed for the office or the home. It seems obvious to me that it was made with a SHRILL sound so that it could be heard in a noisy environment.
I now return you to our regularly scheduled program: Boundary-bending Rubber Domes and the People Who Will Never Get To Try Them...
If any type of mechanical switch is loud enough to hurt your ears, you should see a doctor.
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If any type of mechanical switch is loud enough to hurt your ears, you should see a doctor.
Hurt them physically... no. In terms of sanity, yes.
And I'm not even saying blues are the loudest. Their pitch does seem to pierce through everything else though.
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If any type of mechanical switch is loud enough to hurt your ears, you should see a doctor.
Hurt them physically... no. In terms of sanity, yes.
And I'm not even saying blues are the loudest. Their pitch does seem to pierce through everything else though.
hmm. i guess you're just sensitive. the noise doesnt bother me at all.
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Why hasn't someone made an affordable Topre yet?
^ is the first time I have ever seen the words "affordable" and "Topre" in the same sentence...
The better question is: Why are Topre's so expensive? I mean, does it have anything to do with patents on the Topre design? It really doesn't make sense that a standard rubber dome costs between $10-$40, yet a rubber dome with a spring underneath it costs $250-$350 bucks. Never did make any sense to me...
EDIT: Dammit SmallFry, you beat me to it with the patents comment! :))
Well, keep in mind that board with Topre switches also happen to have dysub PBT keycaps and well made metal cases adding to the cost. So comparing the two is a bit unfair.
Still, I agree with you that they are expensive regardless.
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Well, keep in mind that board with Topre switches also happen to have dysub PBT keycaps and well made metal cases adding to the cost. So comparing the two is a bit unfair.
Read: you're forgetting about the rest of its body and frame, which are of MUCH higher quality and are sturdier than any Filco/CM Storm board I've tried.
I'm kind of a Topre fanboy, but I have to disagree with arguments about the case or plate on Realforces being better/sturdier than ones from other manufacturers. I've disassembled several Realforces and other keyboards, and there's nothing about the quality of the plastic or design in the case that sets Topre apart from a Filco/CM/etc.
The metal plate inside is not very different either. It's not thicker or better machined than a Costar metal plate. In fact, the metal plates on the white Realforces are left bare and unfinished. I painted mine black because the galvanized metal looked so cheap in between the keys.
I think Realforces feel like they're studier because their switches feel sturdier. And the fact the switches are sandwiched between the metal plate and PCB with dozens of screws holding the them together makes it more rigid. But if you were to examine the case and metal plate alone, they're not any higher quality than any other keyboard.
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MX blue! That lovely switch with moderate actuation force... But oh my ears!!! Why would Cherry want to hurt our ears? Answer: They don't, and the vaunted MX blue (regardless of their current intentions toward the switch) was likely never designed for the office or the home. It seems obvious to me that it was made with a SHRILL sound so that it could be heard in a noisy environment.
I like the tactile feel of blues and hate the floaty return feel and noise.
Ergo Clears will give you the feel of blues without the noise, as will Jailhouse Blues, the JB's just give a shorter travel. Both have the same feel on the down stroke as a blue, but quieter and no float.
To quiet them more, I lube the sliders/guides with a very light silicone oil, and put some grease on each spring end (nothing on the switch itself), add o-rings and an aluminum case which I stuff with foam. The next thing I plan to try is to run some silicone bead all over the plate to dampen it as well. I use double shots, but double thick PBT would probably help as well.
It's not cheap (you could probably achieve similar results with a Filco case), but feels fantastic, and while a different pitch, while typing it has similar noise levels to a rubber dome.
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topre is a worthless membrane keyboard
if you pay $300 for one of those you are a sucker
I agree about the "overprices-ness" and about the fact that people are suckers for keeping it..
So....hm... I guess I just plain agree with you... :D
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topre is a worthless membrane keyboard
if you pay $300 for one of those you are a sucker
I'm so glad your close-mindedness has found its way to GeekHack!
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topre is a worthless membrane keyboard
if you pay $300 for one of those you are a sucker
I'm so glad your close-mindedness has found its way to GeekHack!
LOL, well you don't know, maybe he has a rational explanation for his views, but "those crude" terms were arbitrarily chosen in summation..
Doesn't mean he's close-minded, at least "not certainly"..
and from his handle model f, he's certainly not completely noober.
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Well, keep in mind that board with Topre switches also happen to have dysub PBT keycaps and well made metal cases adding to the cost. So comparing the two is a bit unfair.
Read: you're forgetting about the rest of its body and frame, which are of MUCH higher quality and are sturdier than any Filco/CM Storm board I've tried.
I'm kind of a Topre fanboy, but I have to disagree with arguments about the case or plate on Realforces being better/sturdier than ones from other manufacturers. I've disassembled several Realforces and other keyboards, and there's nothing about the quality of the plastic or design in the case that sets Topre apart from a Filco/CM/etc.
The metal plate inside is not very different either. It's not thicker or better machined than a Costar metal plate. In fact, the metal plates on the white Realforces are left bare and unfinished. I painted mine black because the galvanized metal looked so cheap in between the keys.
I think Realforces feel like they're studier because their switches feel sturdier. And the fact the switches are sandwiched between the metal plate and PCB with dozens of screws holding the them together makes it more rigid. But if you were to examine the case and metal plate alone, they're not any higher quality than any other keyboard.
Well, if you say so. I can't argue with you there. But, notice I spoke about the Topre "body and frame" in general, not the casing and the metal plate specifically. The casing not being that much better than Filco's was expected by me; they're just pieces of plastic. And I can see how the metal plate might not be that much more than a Filco board's metal plate.
But by going by memory, I remember that the Filco, and the CM Storm keyboards I had were definitely lighter in weight. Also, they just didn't quite have that well put-together feeling as my Topre board does now. Which has been explained by what you wrote about the way all the parts are put together. And from what I remember of my uncle owning a small factory in Korea many years ago, machining all those extra things does take extra time, and better machinery, which means higher costs for Topre, and therefore the consumers.
Seeing as how you only mentioned the plate and the plastic casing... are you sure you didn't leave out any information that would explain the higher costs for Topre? Such as better quality in other parts of the board? =P
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Well, keep in mind that board with Topre switches also happen to have dysub PBT keycaps and well made metal cases adding to the cost. So comparing the two is a bit unfair.
Read: you're forgetting about the rest of its body and frame, which are of MUCH higher quality and are sturdier than any Filco/CM Storm board I've tried.
I'm kind of a Topre fanboy, but I have to disagree with arguments about the case or plate on Realforces being better/sturdier than ones from other manufacturers. I've disassembled several Realforces and other keyboards, and there's nothing about the quality of the plastic or design in the case that sets Topre apart from a Filco/CM/etc.
The metal plate inside is not very different either. It's not thicker or better machined than a Costar metal plate. In fact, the metal plates on the white Realforces are left bare and unfinished. I painted mine black because the galvanized metal looked so cheap in between the keys.
I think Realforces feel like they're studier because their switches feel sturdier. And the fact the switches are sandwiched between the metal plate and PCB with dozens of screws holding the them together makes it more rigid. But if you were to examine the case and metal plate alone, they're not any higher quality than any other keyboard.
Well, if you say so. I can't argue with you there. But, notice I spoke about the Topre "body and frame" in general, not the casing and the metal plate specifically. The casing not being that much better than Filco's was expected by me; they're just pieces of plastic. And I can see how the metal plate might not be that much more than a Filco board's metal plate.
But by going by memory, I remember that the Filco, and the CM Storm keyboards I had were definitely lighter in weight. Also, they just didn't quite have that well put-together feeling as my Topre board does now. Which has been explained by what you wrote about the way all the parts are put together. And from what I remember of my uncle owning a small factory in Korea many years ago, machining all those extra things does take extra time, and better machinery, which means higher costs for Topre, and therefore the consumers.
Seeing as how you only mentioned the plate and the plastic casing... are you sure you didn't leave out any information that would explain the higher costs for Topre? Such as better quality in other parts of the board? =P
What extra parts?
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Seeing as how you only mentioned the plate and the plastic casing... are you sure you didn't leave out any information that would explain the higher costs for Topre? Such as better quality in other parts of the board? =P
I only mentioned those two because I thought people might be getting the wrong impression about them as they read through this thread. And I did mention the stuff in Topre boards that would account for some of the higher costs. Half way through page 1:
Capacitive PCB more expensive than membrane sheet.
Dye-sub PBT more expensive than ABS
I don't think that accounts for the entire price difference, but just throwing it out there.
Believe me, if I knew what other material or manufacturing factors resulted in drastic difference in pricing, I would let people know, and it would make me feel better about spending so much money on my Realforce. I can't explain why, but I still think the feeling of Topre is worth it.
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I am sure that they could sell them cheaper but what would it get them? Maybe 1,000 more unit sales to enthusiasts? The main market for Realforce is commercial orders, companies will pay the higher price so why would they sell them cheaper to private customers?
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They can't possibly cost that much to manufacture. Unless it's like mac computers where they are expensive for the sake of being "cool", why hasn't any company offered a topre keyboard that isn't preposterously expensive? Wouldn't they make a killing off it?
There are many companies who want to make a cheaper Topre keyboard but it is illegal.
It is only legal for Topre to make a cheaper Topre keyboard. And they absolutely do not want to do this.
When the patent expires it will suddenly become legal for anybody to make a cheaper Topre keyboard and you will see the prices fall toward the actual value of the product. Also the quality will increase.
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We considered Topre switches initially since we saw that there was almost no availability of them in the US, especially not at reasonable prices. However, the reason we opted to abandon the idea of using Topre switches is that they have no public face or contact information available. We found an email address for their US branch, but never received a reply. Also, Elite Keyboards is the sole distributor of Topre switch keyboards in the US, and that could mean either they're the only ones because no one else distributes them, or because they have exclusive rights to them. In either case, we determined it wasn't worth the effort of trying to track down a company that makes it extremely difficult to work with them when we could more easily work with manufacturers that can already provide us with Cherry MX switches that are considered great quality as it is.
This experience reminds of a video I watched in college about international business. This American guy was in a negotiation with the Japanese guy about the closing of a deal. The Japanese guy wanted to talk about golf for a bit, but the American guy insisted upon shifting the conversation back to business. After a couple of these exchanges, the Japanese guy smiled, said thank you, said he had to go, and left the office. The deal was off.
Moral of the story? When dealing with Japanese companies, it's important to get to know the businessman before diving straight into negotiations. So start your next email with a question about golf.
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They can't possibly cost that much to manufacture. Unless it's like mac computers where they are expensive for the sake of being "cool", why hasn't any company offered a topre keyboard that isn't preposterously expensive? Wouldn't they make a killing off it?
There are many companies who want to make a cheaper Topre keyboard but it is illegal.
It is only legal for Topre to make a cheaper Topre keyboard. And they absolutely do not want to do this.
When the patent expires it will suddenly become legal for anybody to make a cheaper Topre keyboard and you will see the prices fall toward the actual value of the product. Also the quality will increase.
I suppose that I should delay my µTron purchase until this happens, to save a few hundred bucks?
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If any type of mechanical switch is loud enough to hurt your ears, you should see a doctor.
Hurt them physically... no. In terms of sanity, yes.
And I'm not even saying blues are the loudest. Their pitch does seem to pierce through everything else though.
hmm. i guess you're just sensitive. the noise doesnt bother me at all.
It's not just about you or I. :) There are scores of people commenting on GH alone how they would like MX blues if not for the sound.
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The sound is the best part!