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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: bankergeek on Mon, 18 February 2013, 23:08:19
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I have a Kinesis Advantage Pro Keyboard with cherry browns, but the keyboard is quite loud and this is a nuisance to coworkers. I want to install O-Rings but I don't want to risk damaging the keyboard; I've read posts on here that people have broken keys when they have taken out their keys on their Kinesis. I'm a complete noob when it comes to soldering so I'd like to avoid that. Any suggestions? Thanks!
Also, are the cherry reds less loud?
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Browns shouldn't be too much louder than a rubber dome keyboad with the red o-rings from WASD Keyboards. It's exactly what I currently use on my browns. As long as you're not mashing the keys, they'll sound much softer.
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Great. I'd definitely like to put in O-Rings, but any idea how I can pull out the keys on a Kinesis without damaging them? I've saw in some threads, people have messed up the wiring by pulling the keys out.
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Sorry, I'm not familar with the Kinesis/edox type keyboards to be able to confirm that. However, as long as you're using a wired puller, I can't imagine you damaging the keyboard whatsoever. Perhaps they were doing something else like replacing the switches?
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I had the same Kinesis KB like you. I had installed rubber o-ring on all keycaps without any issue.
Do take note:
1) Use good keypuller like below
(http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/31lO8N00o2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
2) Do be very careful when you pulling out the keycaps at Thumb cluster. I had few time pulled out the top portion of Cherry Switch. :S
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Great, thanks! Would you recommend using the Filco keypuller as opposed to the keypuller that comes out of the box with the Kinesis advantage?
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I personally recommend using the keycap puller that came with the keyboard. It looks like this but beige:
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm244/saintsheep/C4.jpg)
The reason is because it's shorter and can only grab the keycap edges. When using a longer wired keycap puller, there is a chance that when removing the thumb keys you can accidentally pull the switch itself and break it.
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I've taken the keycaps off my Kinesis Advantage many times to put on/take off orings using the key cap puller that came with the board. Never a problem.
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Great, thanks! I will just use the keycap puller that the product comes with. By the way, which o-ring modifications are the best?
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Nice surprise about this shorter form. Can you tell us what it is you are talking/writing about?
Has any info. about this shorter form been posted before (and i just missed it)?
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Also, are the cherry reds less loud?
No, brown and red cherry MX switches make the same noise. Browns just have a resistance point in the middle of the stroke, reds are completely smooth over the entire stroke, but both register a keypress halfway down, so with practice you can avoid or reduce bottoming out and reduce noise. I'm assuming you have already turned off the keyboard "click" sound with Program+backslash.
For maximum noise reduction I recommend the WASD blue o-rings (40A-R):
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html
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I currently have the blue o-rings from WASD on my Kinesis Advantage LF and it does reduce the noise. Also cushions the impact a bit when bottoming out.
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Awesome! I will get blue o-rings then, thanks for the help guys. As you can tell, I'm new to this community but it's pretty damn cool. I thought I was the only one around rocking this beast of a keyboard (as much as I love it) and it's almost therapeutic to find a group of people even more passionate about their keys.
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I've taken the keycaps off my Kinesis Advantage many times to put on/take off orings using the key cap puller that came with the board. Never a problem.
Hmmm, I just used my fingers. Am I crazy. ;)
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i have used my trust butterknife for at least 1,000 keycap removals.
when i couldn't be bothered to go into my kitchen my swiss army knife worked fine,
no injuries so far!
btw if your co-workers find cherry browns loud, they are either
1. trolling you and just being stupid
2. still being trolls
unless you work in a library that doesn't have computers, cuz like ppl have said browns are just a tad bit louder than rubber domes, and depending on the user, quieter if they don't slam on it.
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I think part of the problem was that I was bottoming out too much and I've now also been working on typing without bottoming out.
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Of course the blue 40A-R are sold out on that site! Is there any other site I can look to buy those particular O-rings for my Advantage LF?
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Of course the blue 40A-R are sold out on that site! Is there any other site I can look to buy those particular O-rings for my Advantage LF?
I might be getting rid of mine if my next package of o-rings arrives soon and I like those better than the blue o-rings.
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Which rings are you getting as a replacement, if I may ask?
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Which rings are you getting as a replacement, if I may ask?
Imsto in the vendor forum sells these thick rubber o-rings, and I wanted the thickest, hardest o-rings I could get. They might now feel as good as softer o-rings. I just like to try different stuff.
They ship from China, so it takes awhile for them to arrive. I bought them a month ago they are not here yet.
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To minimize noise I would stay away from hard o-rings. I've tried 70A, 50A, 40A, and the softer the o-rings, the quieter.
bankergeek, if you can't wait a couple of weeks for the 40A-R to be re-stocked, I think you'll do fine with the 40A-L instead.
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Yea I should note that I want the thick, hard o-rings for reduced key travel and quicker return after bottoming out.
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At one point in time about a year ago or so, someone was selling O-rings and had a "sample package" with a couple of each hardness/size....I forgot who it was, but I know a few of you guys got them and I think the majority consensus was that softer was better, but that the difference was very slight and not a deal breaker. As far as the different thicknesses, I think it was all over the charts what people preferred. If anyone remembers and I'm incorrect, please toss in on this. It was very helpful at the time.
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I actually managed to order the 40A-R just before they stocked out, so I got lucky there!
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In my experience, Kinesis boards are louder than most other mechanical keyboards that use the same Cherry switches. I think it'd because the switches are mounted to a plastic keywell which is suspended within the case. The open space in between acts as a chamber, and there are gaps around the edges for the sound to get out.
I recently installed O-rings on one of my Kinesis Advantage boards, so I can offer some tips:
- Older Kinesis keyboards had doubleshot keycaps with shorter skirts than modern keycaps. Many of these have long stems that leave too much room for the O-ring to slide up, preventing it from doing its job. I suppose you could stack a bunch of O-rings to make it work, but that'd get expensive. However, I found some of these older keycaps, such as the 8 home keys, work fine with O-rings.
- I used the same puller that natas206 suggested, and it does generally work well. Be careful to ensure that it's clipped over both sides before pulling hard to prevent damaging the switch.
- Some keys are harder than others. If you're having trouble getting it to snap over both sides, you can try sliding it in from the side. For 1x1 keys, you can also try rotating the puller 90 degrees and coming in from a different direction.
- The hardest keys to pull with this puller are the 8 home keys. It'll tend to hook one side or the other, but not both. Either very carefully position the puller, or remove the keys around them first, and then pull these caps off with your fingers. If you have a wire puller, I'd use that just for these 8 keys.
- I used the larger 0.4mm reduction blue 40A-R rings from wasd keyboards on most of my keys, but I went with the thinner 0.2mm reduction red 40A-R for the 8 home keys, for which I chose to use some old doubleshot keycaps that feel better than the newer ones.
- The effect on keyboard noise is noticeable, but it's still not that quiet. However, I much prefer the key feel with the O-rings. It's hard to explain, but it feels a lot better, like a more polished, sophisticated product.
After installing the O-rings, I decided to put some soft compressible foam inside the keyboard to absorb sound. It's easy to do, with only 6 screws to remove. I open my keyboards up every year or so to give them a thorough cleaning, so I'm familiar with the guts. Once inside, I cut some pieces of compressible foam to fill the major voids, leaving the space around the circuit board open so it's still ventilated. The effect on noise was noticeable, but it's still probably louder than a flat Cherry brown board.
I turned of the electronic key sounds years ago. It's really not needed once you adapt to the board, since there is plenty of tactile feedback from the Cherry browns.
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I have several Kinesis keyboards old and new. I have some doubleshots, and yes, I like them much better. The doubleshots are quieter than the singleshots.
There is an interesting difference:
Natas206 and I took pics and confirmed that the old doubleshots (with the shorter skirts) also have the surface of the keycap sitting lower on the switch relative to the newer singleshots. But the old doubleshots and newer singleshots have the same key cap profiles.
Therefore, if you were to swap keycaps you'd find that the newer singleshots are slightly higher on the keyboard than the doubleshots.
Some of us have been looking to get the doubleshots from SP but the cost is crazy unless we buy MANY sets. We've been looking to get keycaps in PBT but have not found all the profiles. We started looking at molding about a year and a half ago, but 3D printing is taking off so maybe that will be an option.
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I haven't noticed that the doubleshots are quieter, but since many of them aren't compatible with O-rings, I switched to singleshots for all but my 8 home keys. I noticed that mixing doubleshots and singleshots on the same keyboard doesn't always work out, since the doubleshots sit lower.
I read some of the adventures you guys have been going through trying to get a full set of high quality keycaps for Kinesis keyboards. I'm not up to speed on all the keyboard terminology, but it sounded like the problem keys were the 8 home keys and the 4 command/control/windows and alt/option keys. I'd be fine with using singleshots for the latter, but high quality home keys are a must.
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I agree that home keys are a priority and the least used keys could be lesser quality. We never discussed that aspect…Much of the desire for the custom keys (that is one hell of a crazy long and detailed thread…very frustrating) were issues of quality, color, legends, etc. Many masters to serve. I believe a few things have changed/progressed recently since that thread was in full momentum, that may provide more options for custom keycaps.