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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: gnubag on Fri, 22 February 2013, 22:10:51
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Is there some kind of table with all the spring stiffness and actuation forces?
Because the actuation forces of mx switches are different because of the tactileness/linearness (are those even real words?!), so greeen and black have apparently have the same spring while their actuation force are 60g and 80g. Red, blue, and brown switches have also the same spring while having different actuation forces.
also how are the 55g, 62g, 65g sorted in?
wiki post maybe?
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I believe there's a table at Deskthority.
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ripster is the #1 keyboard wizard:
http://imgur.com/a/RJqM4#0
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You are referring to the Korean springs, I assume, which measure the force at the bottom of the stroke. The stock MX "light" spring (blue/brown/red) come in around 60g. The black/green/white spring is about 80g. To quote myself from another thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40558.0):
Be careful not to conflate switch actuation force with spring force. The Cherry switch has two springs: the coil spring to return the stem and the leaf spring of the switch contacts. The two switches interact in different ways, depending on the design of the stem. That is why red/brown/blue switches have different actuation forces even though they all use the same spring. For tactile switches, the leaf spring increases the actuation force because it has to ride over the bump. There is also friction to take into account from the side-loading introduced byt he leaf spring. For a linear switch, the leaf spring will slightly reduce the actuation force because the ramp of the stem is making the leaf spring help it along.
The Koreans were wise to measure the force at the bottom of the stroke rather than at actuation. This mostly-eliminates the effect of the leaf spring, because the contact is now closed. Only a small amount of tension from the leaf remains on the stem.
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You are referring to the Korean springs, I assume, which measure the force at the bottom of the stroke. The stock MX "light" spring (blue/brown/red) come in around 60g. The black/green/white spring is about 80g. To quote myself from another thread (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40558.0):
Ha, I was just about to link your post :)
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That Ripster I only know by name provides some usefull studies
But now I'm confused, which Korean springs would provide a 45-50g actuation force on a clear stem?
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The clear spring is an oddball. You can see from the pic that they have fewer turns of a heavier wire and are shorter. These three variables affect the effective ramp rate of the spring from the top and bottom of the stem movement. I did some measuring of comparative actuation forces of a blue stem with a blue, green, and clear spring. The clear spring actually had a lower actuation force than the green spring, but a higher bottoming-out force. I suspect this was done to make sure the clear stem quickly rebounded when released. Anyone who has done an ergo clear mod is familiar with this problem. So the answer is: you can't really go any lighter than the "light" cherry spring on a clear stem. Even that spring is marginal and I end up having to lube my ergo clears to get consistent rebound performance.
Ripster's method of measuring actuation force with nickels on tactile switches produces odd results. Frictional effects from the stem and guide in a static test like that skew the peak force. I believe that is why his results consistently came out higher than Cherry's for tactile switches. The larger the tactile bump, the more the friction while at rest comes into play. No one types like that.
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Thanks for the input rknize
If I got it right you wouldn't go lower than 62g on Korean springs with clear stem.
I was about to try all of them but I guess I'll skip 55g and only go with 62g and 65g
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I've suspected that the 62g springs exist to overcome the ergo-clear problem. I don't know this for a fact, though. 55g might work if you use a good lubricant. The Teflon-Silicone stuff I use probably won't cut it.
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62g korean springs and clears sound like something to try, off i go to order from sherry's shop!
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Thanks for the input rknize
If I got it right you wouldn't go lower than 62g on Korean springs with clear stem.
I was about to try all of them but I guess I'll skip 55g and only go with 62g and 65g
I'm using clears w/62g springs. Others like Beast prefer clears w/55g springs, but I'd imagine you may have to hand pick the springs. For lube, WFD recommends Victorinox oil (Cheap) for the springs and a Krytox GPL 103 oil/205 grease mix (Not cheap) for the stems/sliders. I don't have any experience with lubing switches (Will soon), but I think you'd be fine using 55g with this method.
You could also send The_Beast a PM and ask what he used for lubing.
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I ordered some GPL205 few days ago but I didn't pick the oil to mix it with
Did WFD also made a lubing thread? I only checked MMB's so far
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I ordered some GPL205 few days ago but I didn't pick the oil to mix it with
Did WFD also made a lubing thread? I only checked MMB's so far
He actually posted a couple of videos that I found very helpful. You can here on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EaKBfLB28U).
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I've suspected that the 62g springs exist to overcome the ergo-clear problem. I don't know this for a fact, though. 55g might work if you use a good lubricant.
The lube is actually some of the problem.
Lube lowers friction, but it can make things sluggish. Water has low friction at low speeds, but the faster you go the harder it is to push through. The same happens here.
The light springs have just enough to get over the bump, but by adding a bit of lube, which initially makes them sluggish, they no longer can get enough momentum to help get over the bump. Once the lube settles, they become more snappy and they go right over the bump. The Korean springs may have just enough to make sure this doesn't happen.
This is why many people don't recommend lubing blues. You either initially get some stuck keys and keep tactility, or you have to lube the switch itself, which removes tactility.
Testing I did on my boards showed that lubed blues and clears functioned fine at 50grams actuation force once the lube settled, unfortunately, they needed 55-60 grams actuation force to reliably operate right after being lubed.
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He actually posted a couple of videos that I found very helpful. You can here on YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EaKBfLB28U).
thanks mashby!
edit: this looks like a very tidious task :/