geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: quickcrx702 on Wed, 27 February 2013, 21:38:10
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If so, what is your business, and why did you get into it? I own an IT consulting firm, and I got started because I got tired of being laid off, and working 70-80 hour work weeks in corporate IT on a crappy salary way below market rate, because the job market was so tough, just wasn't cutting it for me. I still work stupid hours(7am-2am most of the time), but at least I pay myself well, and treat my employees like family.
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I ran a very small web consulting business in an attempt to get a relative moving somewhere in life... Our first big client basically destroyed him by claiming bankruptcy and not paying a single penny. As far as we can tell this was their plan since ever single vendor we know of that they dealt with was treated the same way, including the pizza guy.
On the books I didn't lose anything but time. My relative however is reticent to try anything like it ever again :(
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I ran a very small web consulting business in an attempt to get a relative moving somewhere in life... Our first big client basically destroyed him by claiming bankruptcy and not paying a single penny. As far as we can tell this was their plan since ever single vendor we know of that they dealt with was treated the same way, including the pizza guy.
On the books I didn't lose anything but time. My relative however is reticent to try anything like it ever again :(
You live, you learn. I had a big client walk out on a $20k bill. I busted my ass for a whole month from morning to evening, for nothing. Now, I don't deal with any shady customers, and I actually refuse business that I feel is risky. I also collect payment up front for big projects. I could have gone the lawyer route, but it would have been time and effort that I could use towards other customers. I also could have remoted in, and shut **** down until I got paid, but I have too much integrity for that. Even if the owner is a douche bag, I wouldn't want to negatively impact their employees.
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Never got stuck with a bill, cause I never trusted anyone to any payment terms (except explained below).
- If its a small job less than 1 day work, its pay when I'm leaving - cash or check.
- If it's a website or bigger project pay half upfront (when you start) and at the end the the other 50% (you don't start unless you get 50%).
No refunds on work performed (you have to keep the customer informed). They don't get the site unless they are happy, and pay the 50% at the end.
- You have to have a contract stating this and keep the customer informed of your progress.
- You will have some mishaps where some customers try to get a discount or not pay in the end (but this is usually in the big contracts) but if you keep it to the contract above the customers will have to pay OR loose the other 50% which they paid in the beginning (if you did the first 50%).
- If the customer is a nuisance make sure that you can cancel/rescind the contract (for any reason, but you will have to refund ALL moneys).
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Never got stuck with a bill, cause I never trusted anyone to any payment terms (except explained below).
- If its a small job less than 1 day work, its pay when I'm leaving - cash or check.
- If it's a website or bigger project pay half upfront (when you start) and at the end the the other 50% (you don't start unless you get 50%).
No refunds on work performed (you have to keep the customer informed). They don't get the site unless they are happy, and pay the 50% at the end.
- You have to have a contract stating this and keep the customer informed of your progress.
- You will have some mishaps where some customers try to get a discount or not pay in the end (but this is usually in the big contracts) but if you keep it to the contract above the customers will have to pay OR loose the other 50% which they paid in the beginning (if you did the first 50%).
- If the customer is a nuisance make sure that you can cancel/rescind the contract (for any reason, but you will have to refund ALL moneys).
Ah... Don't worry so much about percentages... Just sticking to "YOUR" guns is enough..
In game theory, the "unreasonable" party always come out ahead, regardless of morals or any "optimized" outcome...
However, the counter to this is, you shouldn't have to drop to such a predicament to begin with... and so that's where a little more "sorting" goes a long way "before" you decide to engage.
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I ran my own IT consulting firm for 10 years. It was a one-man shop, but I had a few large clients and lots of small and mid-sized clients to keep me busy. Did everything from networks, to web sites.
In 2007 I added a partner and changed the name of the company and after a couple of years, our largest client "acquired" us. I now am 1/3 owner in my business. The company is called EarthChannel (http://earthchannel.com) and we provide the tools for municipalities to put their meetings online (think YouTube for Government).
After giving up client services work, I don't miss it in the least. I really like having a product/service that I get to work on everyday and take pride in providing the best product I can. Working for clients, I was always one step removed and it was frustrating when their business goals, assuming they had some, were in conflict with my recommendations.
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I ran my own IT consulting firm for 10 years. It was a one-man shop, but I had a few large clients and lots of small and mid-sized clients to keep me busy. Did everything from networks, to web sites.
In 2007 I added a partner and changed the name of the company and after a couple of years, our largest client "acquired" us. I now am 1/3 owner in my business. The company is called EarthChannel (http://earthchannel.com) and we provide the tools for municipalities to put their meetings online (think YouTube for Government).
After giving up client services work, I don't miss it in the least. I really like having a product/service that I get to work on everyday and take pride in providing the best product I can. Working for clients, I was always one step removed and it was frustrating when their business goals, assuming they had some, were in conflict with my recommendations.
Nice!!! Do you use colocation services to house your own equipment, or cloud services like Gogrid/EC2/Rackspace to deliver your service? I agree, it's really frustrating when clients don't take your recommendations. Especially when they go with something else more expensive yet inferior because they bought into marketing hype. I feel good when I rip the stuff out, and put in what I originally recommended, but feel bad that clients didn't take my advice and ended up spending tons of unnecessary money. I agree about having a product/service that you control. I'm thinking about starting a VOIP phone company, and looking into colocation space, instead of using Amazon EC2 which I have less control over. Right now I'm basically giving away phone service to other VOIP vendors without taking a markup, other than the phones themselves. I can provide cheaper service, more features, better call quality, etc. than a lot of other companies that are just using Asterisk based solutions, I just need to get off my ass and put this stuff in motion. You'd be surprised with what VOIP vendors get away with charging, compared to their actual delivery costs and features that they nickel and dime customers for.
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I co-owned (more ran) a kitchen fitting business for about 18months and the amount of people who tryed to f*ck us was incredible over 10 at least, but the best way of doing it was 3 payments, the first one before you build (This pays for all your supplies) the second one in the middle and the final one on completion. I took a back seat from business running since then as I couldn't really cope with the hassle as I'm weak :(
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Small business owner here as well. I run a family business -- we sell international flags, and make custom banners and flags, displays, etc. It's a great business because we get to make stuff. There are probably easier ways to make a living, but it's always a thrill to see our work out in the world. We do work for television and movies as well, and that can be really cool. We do work for a lot of NYC-based shows, like 'Person of Interest' and 'Blue Bloods'. Basically, you know the vertical flag sets in judge's and lawyer's offices you see in 'Law & Order' and other 'Cop Drama'-style shows? Sold by me.
All the stories I'm hearing about being in business and getting screwed -- pretty much... yeah, that's business sometimes. The simple truth is that all business is based upon trust. We had a client for whom we did a lot of work, and then complained that the graphics we made were unusable. So we show up in court with photos of the client's event -- with our signage all over, looking great. We weren't the only vendors he screwed over, but we showed up in court, and we won. The sheriff (yeah, they have sheriffs in NYC) was set to seize some of his physical assets in order to pay us, but the court then rescinded that order on the grounds that it would ruin the guy even further. So no, there's no real way to get your money.
Since so much of our work is custom, we customarily take a deposit for people we have not yet worked alongside, and allow others that we have a relationship with place orders without a deposit. The actual rate of bad debt is relatively low, and a lot of clients with problems paying are (shocker!) people starting up small businesses. So if they cannot pay in full, we ask them to pay what they can, when they can. And instead of being paid in a month, we're paid in a year.
The worst people to work for (sorry about your toes, some of you) are government institutions. You can't imagine how many times they give us a bid request that is 200+ pages, and it's for a very small order. And to read their contract would make you want to have nothing to do with them. I had one bid contract declaring that the custom flags I would (possibly) make 'shall be impervious to weather.' I love the use of the word 'shall' -- get Charlton Heston on the phone, there are a few more Commandments to add! Try pointing out to them that nothing (not mountains, shorelines, etc.) are 'impervious' to weather. And if they're not happy, you, then vendor are solely responsible for everything. They have clauses in the contracts that state that if they are not happy with your product they have the right to buy from another vendor (at a super high cost) and you will be responsible for the expense!
And then they ask if you're a black, female oboe-player from a disadvantaged family from Kenya. (I'm not.)
But if I were I am notified that I can raise my bid by 30% and still be on par with other bidders. Could that be more nakedly racist and sexist?
I'm not joking, people. So what do people do? They hire a black female oboe player and that person acts as their 'proxy' to win the bid, they then pay that proxy off, and complete the job. Only government could engineer such evil.
Working for clients, I was always one step removed and it was frustrating when their business goals, assuming they had some, were in conflict with my recommendations.
Yeah, we get some clients who ignore our every recommendation and then when the job goes south we are expected to take the economic hit. It seems to me that every business is becoming a service business, to some degree. It would be nice to simply make a product some days, and let people take it or leave it, but service seems to be the single best way to distinguish oneself.
- If it's a website or bigger project pay half upfront (when you start) and at the end the the other 50% (you don't start unless you get 50%).
No refunds on work performed (you have to keep the customer informed). They don't get the site unless they are happy, and pay the 50% at the end.
Yeah, if clients have little to no skin in the game, they're more apt to just walk away.
You live, you learn. I had a big client walk out on a $20k bill. I busted my ass for a whole month from morning to evening, for nothing. Now, I don't deal with any shady customers, and I actually refuse business that I feel is risky. I also collect payment up front for big projects. I could have gone the lawyer route, but it would have been time and effort that I could use towards other customers. I also could have remoted in, and shut **** down until I got paid, but I have too much integrity for that. Even if the owner is a douche bag, I wouldn't want to negatively impact their employees.
Exactly right on lawyers. Sorry if this offends some people, but the only people who win lawsuits are lawyers. You spend so much time and energy and it drags on forever and nothing really happens. You don't get your money, generally. The worst I ever had to do was hold onto someone's sign. They had not yet paid for it, and then they had the nerve to be upset when it was damaged in the Sandy Superstorm Hurricane. So we repaired it for free -- and then held it until they paid for it.
These sorts of stories are why I have so much respect for capitalism and entrepeneurs -- they make the world work. I was once at a BBQ with friends, and they started talking about their bosses (not knowing I'm my own boss) and they all said, "It's amazing... my boss is so stupid!" ... "I know -- my boss is an idiot!" On and on this went, then they looked at me and I said, "Isn't it incredible. The dumbest guy somehow manages to end up as the boss; over and over! " They received that statement without any irony whatsoever.
Haters Gonna Hate. (that's as 'street' as I get)
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And then they ask if you're a black, female oboe-player from a disadvantaged family from Kenya. (I'm not.)
But if I were I am notified that I can raise my bid by 30% and still be on par with other bidders.
diversity policy! 'murica!
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And then they ask if you're a black, female oboe-player from a disadvantaged family from Kenya. (I'm not.)
But if I were I am notified that I can raise my bid by 30% and still be on par with other bidders.
diversity policy! 'murica!
Are you a business owner? Seems you're from Russia.
I once had an employee from Russia, Yuri, who ran my silkscreening department. So he's very good at what he does, and he tells me these stories about Soviet era conditions. He says that when he was a printer in Russia they would work all day and then at night they would 'close' the shop (cover the windows, etc.) and then do printing work on the side, for their own profit. During the day (state time) they move slowly. At night, when it's their profit, they work like banshees! Another time he was at my house for a BBQ, and in my backyard there's a fence. Over the fence there's a parking lot for a series of huge apartment buildings. So there's Yuri, in my backyard with a drink in his hand, and he's just staring at the apartments. I ask him, "What are you looking at?" and he says, "They would never believe me." "Believe what?" "My family, my friends back home. They would never believe this." And he points out to me that every one of the probably hundreds of windows has a different style of curtain. He was absolutely astounded that no two were the same. He explained to me that under the Soviets people had to wait for basic things, and that people accepted it, and they eventually got what they needed. But an unforeseen by-product of having the state provide everything (including window drapes) is that they decide which four styles are optimal, and those are your only choices. And so the entire Soviet world takes on a subtle, oppressive homogeneity. Imagine a world painted in just four state-sponsored colors... so drab and dull. I was glad Yuri made it to 'Murica.
Anyway, iri, thanks so much for your priceless contribution to the discussion.
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wasn't your employee glad soviet times have gone 22 years ago?
damn, i read krogenar's post... again
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hmmm, my dad once lost 50k because his client's shop(in Thailand) got caught in the flood, and they filed for bankruptcy. Guess insurance don't always cover natural disasters.
I think the hardest part when it comes to business is having to keep the business afloat with employees and such, even when there are no clients.
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Exactly right on lawyers. Sorry if this offends some people, but the only people who win lawsuits are lawyers. You spend so much time and energy and it drags on forever and nothing really happens. You don't get your money, generally...
These sorts of stories are why I have so much respect for capitalism and entrepeneurs -- they make the world work. I was once at a BBQ with friends, and they started talking about their bosses (not knowing I'm my own boss) and they all said, "It's amazing... my boss is so stupid!" ... "I know -- my boss is an idiot!" On and on this went, then they looked at me and I said, "Isn't it incredible. The dumbest guy somehow manages to end up as the boss; over and over! " They received that statement without any irony whatsoever.
Most of the people who have screwed me over on bills are lawyers. I figure, they could drag it out forever since they have free representation, and I would end up even deeper in the red. Seriously, F most lawyers with a dry broomstick and no lube. I've met a few good ones, but most deserve to be cheese grated to death.
Some employees are funny. Every job I've had there would always be employees that had been at a company forever, hardly did any work, and would complain about how crappy the company was and that they are underpaid. These were the same people being paid way more than anybody else in the same position due to their length of time at the company and yearly raises. My response was always to find another job, but it's obvious that they would never do that because they are just too complacent. The way I structure raises I think is how it should be. If you don't grow as an employee, I don't care if you've been with the company for 20 years, I won't even give a cost of living raise. But if you've been with the company for 20 days, and make yourself more valuable by increasing your skills and showing personal dedication, I'll give a raise right away. Hard work should pay off, not time in.
There is also some truth about some bosses being idiots compared to the employees. I once had a successful client tell me that part of being successful in business is hiring and keeping people who are smarter and harder working than you are. Some bosses really care about their employees, and others are greedy, unethical jerks. There was a business that I worked with where the owners decided that due to the rough economy they would either need to lay people off, or give everyone in the company a paycut. That sounded fair enough to their employees, except that their business actually was recording more profits than before the recession, and they were taking advantage of the economy to increase profits further!!! Another customer of mine fired pretty much his entire staff of about 10 people, and replaced all of them but one. In his case it was justified, because none of them were doing their jobs, and they were all covering up for each other and hiding things.
Since I deal exclusively with other small business owners, I get to see lots of behind the scenes stuff that most employees never see, and I get to see it in a variety of industries. I think most small business owners are really good people who sometimes have to make tough decisions, but there are also ones who are just greedy d-bags. Those are the ones who never get a discount from me, and if they are too shady I won't even do business with them out of principle. Anyway thanks for the feedback guys, I'm really interested in what other entrepreneurs are doing, it helps motivate me.
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wasn't your employee glad soviet times have gone 22 years ago?
Aren't you?