Would it be possible (or feasible) to come up with a specific set of tests to use in conjunction with the rollover test page? i.e., Press letters x-y-z...press e-r-x-c...etc and standardize it? Or is that ultimately flawed due to the various in keyboard configurations?
I think keyboard designs are similar enough to have a standardised test.
Model M 1391401, 1984,
4 keys
qwer
pex: I think zilldot is referring to the keyboard wiring and not necessarily the language or the layout.
Most foreign keyboards are variations of US keyboards with different keycaps and a few extra keys. It takes a long time to develop a good wiring for a keyboard that prevents ghosting for commonly used key combinations. It usually has to do more with human factors (i.e. in what ways are you unlikely to contort your hands.. for ex, no one would ever press qwas together naturally). Because people's hands tends to be the same, these wiring schematics become rather universal.
Model M 1391401 wasn't made in 1984.
If only it were that simple. It's surprising the number of judgment calls we see on keyboards as far as what blocks what.
Hmmm, I guess someone is going to have to post a pic of their "birth certificate".
I've got a Model M 1393278 made in 2007. ;)
I don't think anyone is, intentionally, trying to pass misinformation. I'm asking anyone that is willing to draft one up, to come up with a comprehensive, idiot-proof, rollover test plan that we can post here so that everyone is testing the same things. Once that is done and we have a general consensus, I will clear out this thread and allow everyone to resubmit using the standardized test.
If we're going to be true to the cause, I just don't want any keyboard getting away under- or over-credited. I don't have enough keyboards lying around to find a semblance of proof for my baseless, anecdotal claims on keyboard electronics layouts. However, until someone does some specific and somewhat scientific testing, I don't think any of us, with our anecdotal evidence, should make final decisions on what constitutes a test!
I mean, we can find out n-key rollover if we take a standard school ruler and run it across any line of a keyboard. That'll get at least 10 keys, probably many more. But what if it passes on the top line, but we do it to the next line, and it fails? What if it passes on the top line but the numpad isn't n-key rollover? It's certainly not n-key rollover, then.
Hmmm, I guess someone is going to have to post a pic of their "birth certificate".
We all use USB to connect our peripherals, so who cares? I just don't understand this.
Since no member here has tried this on a PS/2 computer, I'm guessing none of us have one that's worth the time, so really what is the point of n-key rollover?
Since no member here has tried this on a PS/2 computer, I'm guessing none of us have one that's worth the time, so really what is the point of n-key rollover? I think the vast majority of humanity can live just fine with the ability to use only three alphanumeric characters in conjunction with the existing modifier keys.
I'm trying to kick things off here with some empirical study. I've dissected my broken Model M.
OK. What this study needs is someone with a true n-key rollover keyboard to test this out with iMav's test on a PS/2 connector-baring computer. What would you say if it was still only 7?
Keys: more than I can press :)
7 keys at a time with my brand new shiny Filco (model number in sig).Which keys?
Hope this helps you:
Done via USB on a MacBook with OS X 10.5.2
The keyboard has an American layout and I use qwerty.
You're right, both combos you mentioned failed. It usually showed up as registering 2 keys.
Hey Zillidot, have tested your Filco connected to USB? Might be interesting.Yes, it registers at most 6 keys on USB. So QWEASD works but QWERASD doesn't.
How do you like your Filco?
Unfortunately Unicomp don't currently make or plan to make a model that will recognise more keys.
I was going for minimum, not maximum.
I thought they would fabricate you anything you wanted. They may not mass produce such a model.
Bought it for $20 at office max while I wait for my endurapro to arrive.I'm quite fond of my EnduraPro. I think you will be pleased with it.
What is the point of knowing your n-key rollover?One may also ask what's the point of spending $200 on a keyboard. :)
What practial purpose does it server?
Sorry, I just noticed this sticky. What is n-key rollover and why do I care?
I had asked this same question awhile back also. The n rollover seems to be important when playing games.
I have an IBM Model M 1319401 made in '89 and I can get anywhere from 4-8 (4 fingers from left hand on qwer, 4 fingers from right hand on asdf) keys on that test, depending on how "in-sync" my right hand is.
Interesting. I thought the Model M's failed on this. Can you throw up a screen shot of "asdfqwer" from the rollover page? (well, it likely won't be in that order, but you get the idea)
I decided to do qwerhjkl since it's more natural place for my fingers, not sure if it matters or not if they were on a separate row or what.It does matter since the failure arises from the fact that you have multiple keys pressed on the same column as well as the same row. Since qwerhjkl are all on separate columns, even keyboards which do not have n-key rollover would be able to detect them all.
I decided to do qwerhjkl since it's more natural place for my fingers, not sure if it matters or not if they were on a separate row or what.
It does matter since the failure arises from the fact that you have multiple keys pressed on the same column as well as the same row. Since qwerhjkl are all on separate columns, even keyboards which do not have n-key rollover would be able to detect them all.
(I cited sdfjkl as an example, because that one's REQUIRED for brailling, as someone who came on here a while back said. Quick question, does the Customizer 101 support it? Because the 104 family of boards fails - d is blocking k, and l isn't registered while k is being blocked.)
Even "qwas" has been documented to fail on the Model M's, so it does matter.
BTW, welcome to geekhack!
apple extended keyboard ii
interface: griffin imate ADB to USB adapter
operating system: ubuntu 8.10
minimum keys accepted: 4
maximum keys accepted: 6
Logitech Classic Keyboard 200
Model: Y-UR83
Interface: USB
N-key-rollover: 6
keys used: qasdew
Bought it for $20 at office max while I wait for my endurapro to arrive.
I don't mean to judge your credibility, but can anyone else verify this? I am specifically looking for "qweasd" and if this keyboard can do it for $20 then I'm sold
ABS M1 Heavy Duty Professional Gaming Mechanical Keyboard
Interface: USB
Operating System: XP / Linux
Minimum keys: 2 (WAS and CAPS+Shift+S fail)
You need to contact ABS for warranty service. That sounds like a mfg issue from early models of the M1.
A combination that fails on the ABS is "WEXC." [...] I have no idea how keyboards are designed logic-wise, but it seems that they did "work" to ensure likely combinations would work but other, less likely combinations, might not.
You're right, but I don't realy care as I am not a gamer, and I don't really button mash.
Confirmed. I can do this combination with both of my ABS 'boards. Looking at the reviews on Newegg, it seems that a small number (2-3) of reviewers had an issue with this 'board. It seems, though, Costar has resolves this and Newegg/ABS is making sure customers experiencing these issues are getting taken care of.
Anybody know the rollover capabilities (or lack of) for the Omnikey Evolution?
I think keyboard designs are similar enough to have a standardised test. I suggest the following:
1. Q-W-A-S
2. Q-W-E-A-S-D
3. Q-W-E-R-A-S-D-F
(and so on...)
When a failure is encountered (i.e. not all the keys register), try to reduce the number of keys to find the minimum at which the failure occurs.
Most non n-key capable keyboards would fail on 1. My guess is that keyboards limited by the USB protocol would pass 1 and 2 but fail on 3 (but I don't have one with me to test right now).
We can transpose these tests to different locations on the keyboard, eg a few keys to the right, or up or down a row. But I suspect that wouldn't make a difference, unless it's an unusual keyboard design. If we encounter those we can always add more tests to the list. :)
If I remember correctly, I think it's N-Key. I think I tested it one time, and had no trouble whatsoever with rollover. If I am not mistaken, all Northgate keyboards are N-Key.
The thing that will piss you off about the Evolution, though, is that it will spazz out on you from time to time due to a buggy programming chip. It seemed to happen when I would press (or maybe hold Shift) quite a bit; it would happen most often when I was using the Shift key (normally the left Shift) while I would permanently delete mail items in Outlook. It might put into a programming state or something (these were programmable keyboards). The only fix, other than removing the programming chip, is to shut down (yes, shut down, not restart) your PC and hold the Esc key as it reboots. You should be able to let it go after the beep during POST. Other than that, it is a fantastic keyboard.
Doesn't that happen with a lot of the northgates? I may just end up removing the programming chip if it becomes an issue.
Maybe we should have a contest. Who can post a screen capture from the rollover test page (http://rollover.geekhack.org) with the most keys recognized?
:)
The script posted on the first page is useless. You want to know the MINIMUM of keys that are accepted when pressed together. The aforementioned http://random.xem.us/rollover.html is much better suited.
The only thing that bothers me about this thread is that we have a sticky with over 13,803 views that doesn't address the basic issue if NKey is really worth the money or not.That would have been a good thing to discuss in more detail, agreed. Maybe something for the Wiki?
This is the most interesting:
Only 2 of their keyboards support it (I woulda thought he'd include the G19) and they sell exactly 1 Kajillion keyboards. This is just an assumption but I would think if it was a real issue the gamers would be all over it.
- Ripster
Given the way the PC game industry is going we may be looking back at gaming on a keyboard with nostalgia.
Of course, now I'll never look at my IBM Model M Mini the same (sob...).
- Ripster
I just searched the Logitech forum (gawd I forgotten how awful that forum is) for "Nkey rollover" and got 8 hits out of 14,947 posts.
...
Only 2 of their keyboards support it (I woulda thought he'd include the G19) and they sell exactly 1 Kajillion keyboards. This is just an assumption but I would think if it was a real issue the gamers would be all over it.
If the WASD key layout tends to have rollover issues with other important keys, why not remap movement to another key group?
the 6 key thing is more of a usb limitation rather than a keyboard limitation. If it has full key rollover in the standard port it wouldn't bother me
How about the Cherry Blue Cherry Chinese special. I think I'll shorten that to CBCC - sounds Communist like the DPRK.
I don't know of any n-key rollover keyboards without any issues.
So the Steelseries 7g is $121 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000W6IY6O).
I didn't find the Raptor on this side of the pond but I guess it's 129 Euros ($180 US!!). Boy, their website (http://www.raptor-gaming.de/raptor/raptorUK/)was annoying.
The Kensington K6435 (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=5770) is reported to have n-key - not sure how rigorous his testing was. Would be OK for gaming if you like scissor switches. LOL - read the review though and expect to buy one a year.
This Scorpius M10 review (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?t=4369) states n-key but the testing in this thread (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=75662&postcount=103) indicates 2 key minimum. Nobody start talking about maximum. Who WOULD care about maximum? Oh yeah, the Scorpius MARKETING DEPARMENT, that's who.
And anyone reading this DO NOT USE THE OP TEST - use this one! Be sure to check keys on different rows, don't just mash down QWERTY. Throw a spacebar in there for good measure.
http://random.xem.us/rollover.html
Hey Homeless. I just noticed your first post is Jan 27th looking for a nkey board! I thought I had killed this thread before you came back. :rip: :rip:
If N-Key is that important to you I think the Filcos are the way to go. Under $100 looks like a LOT of compromises. The Das obviously has it's problems or the CEO wouldn't be apologizing for it. (http://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/)
Much better. I liked the camo mousepad:Show Image(http://www.shop-016.de/mod_show_image.php?user=raptor&urlimage=zs_desert1_black_top.jpg&width=270)
I was looking at the Filcos and have read good things about them, but I have no idea where to purchase one or if it's even the best choice for me.
N key is important to me because I notice a large amount of the time when I type fast, the keys come out ot instead of to
Let's send him to Costar and make him live there 6 months until the Das 4 is ready!
2nd that! And where's Bhtooefr. He actually nailed the Das problem way back in November!!
(http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=69511&postcount=121)
IBI, if I remember correctly you said the true definition of N-Key as N = number of keys recognized PLUS one. I've been "loose" with that definition since I don't think I wanna try and explain that. In other words, technically 6-Key means you'll be fine pressing 5 keys at once in any combination, including modifiers (CTRL, SHFT mainly). Seems that makes sense.
Boy, for someone who whined about this being ALL irrelevant I sure am posting a lot in this thread. I think as the Geekhack community grows more and more gamers will wander in.
Yeah, makes me wonder about those people buying antimicrobial keyboards (http://www.sealshield.com/silversealboard.htm) - I don't want to think about what they're up to. Eww....
Good luck with that. Most people wandering in here use the term "Ghosting" because it sounds cool and many gaming keyboard marketing deptartments are starting to use it.
I think we're stuck with being a little loose on the N-key definition and not worrying about it.
Hey all,
First post here...
I recently learned of the key block/rollover issue that plagues most modern keyboards. I discovered the problem when I couldn't perform certain key combinations in some of the games I play.
I just found a keyboard this morning (had it lying around0 that was surprisingly decent. I maxed out at 8 keys at the same time. I tested using the random.xem test posted previously in this thread.
I can mash WEXC, and even ASX. Other combinations i can mash up to 8. I can't do RTYU, which surprised me.
It's a PS/2, Key Tronic brand with model number E03601QUS201-C. It caught my eye because it looks just like an IBM Model M that I read a lot about here.
Does this keyboard seem decent? The only other issue is that the TAB key and Q key are blocked at times with the WASD cluster.
Thanks,
Matt!
Sorry, I missed that it was for a G80, I was thinking it was a rubber dome keyboard. I don't know what the pins correspond to on the MX switch so I guess I'll have to read up on that.
If you're working off the back of the PCB that explains why it's the wrong way round - if you plan to do any others I'd flip it first before you start lettering.
Whoa, that looks like a fair bit of work there. If I'm not mistaken, that should be an M-style matrix.
I haven't taken an M apart yet, so I can't tell. Would be interesting to know, though. I'll try to polish my matrix table up a bit, make a nice spreadsheet and upload it here for anyone who's interested.
Unicomp BO40B56 122-key Host-attached Terminal-Emulator keyboard, Model M architecture.
Keys Accepted: 10
I suppose this is the highest practical maximum as that is all the fingers you have. If you try to get cheeky with it and push an extra key with the heel of your hand, it will register 1-4 keypresses only, but will produce no spurious charcters.
For WOW guys just mash your forehead against the keyboard and post a webcam shot.
For 6-key bragging rights try CTRL-QWAZX.
I dunno - just picked it because it's a scenario you could have in a FPS and it's a combo of modifier and different rows. So I'm surprised that combo works for you and others don't. What ones don't and what board are we talking about??
For my $10 Logitech Media Keyboard (BN-52) it blocks any keys after CTRL-QW. 3-key.
It's like arguing the need for 12 key rollover when you have 10 fingers.
If Dilbert worked in a keyboard company.
Boss: We need N-Key Rollover in our next board! Everybody charges over $100 and puts a Hackers Special! label on it.
Dilbert: It costs $2.49 in parts to add true N-key.
Boss: Forget the true part, make it for 29 cents in parts.
Dilbert: Here it is, doesn't quite work for the following 2598 combinations.
Boss: Close enough. Marketing already put it on the box. Don't forget the pink WASD keys.
QFT. I never understood the mystique of NKRO when this is exactly the case. In gaming, where many people express the desire for NKRO, you generally have one hand on the mouse, so even the above statment doesn't apply. In that case, you only have five available fingers to use.
QFT. I never understood the mystique of NKRO when this is exactly the case. In gaming, where many people express the desire for NKRO, you generally have one hand on the mouse, so even the above statment doesn't apply. In that case, you only have five available fingers to use.
I suspect that to guarantee ANY combination of 6 keys work, you need to make it NKRO capable, i.e. diodes in series with all keys. Of course you can still mess it up at the controller stage, which would be a shame after spending the money on the parts. Sadly I think many keyboard makers do exactly that.
Better than the current situations. Paying 50% more for something that doesn't do what the box says it should do.
Exhibit A: The ABS M1 (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=96958#post96958)
Yep, 3-key by the wiki definition. It seems most keyboards are.
Thank MS and HP for saving a few pennies on diodes.
The controller for the keyboard seems to freak out though if you try to press any 3 nearby keys. If you press 3 nearby keys at the sametime, instead of it blocking one, it blocks all of them and nothing comes out.Sounds like the rollover bug on the ABS M1. I'd guess it's ghosting suppression gone wrong - doesn't exactly speak for the keyboard controller's programming. Not like that would be surprising with the other properties you describe.
Sounds like the rollover bug on the ABS M1. I'd guess it's ghosting suppression gone wrong - doesn't exactly speak for the keyboard controller's programming. Not like that would be surprising with the other properties you describe.
Strange to find this in what seems to be designed as an office workhorse. Besides, reviews indicate that the keyboard should actually be pretty good. A lemon, maybe? I'd bother the support.
Not MAX keys please. ONLY post minimum keys registered. Try the ones in the wiki (http://geekhack.org/showwiki.php?title=Do+I+need+N-key+rollover%3F) or in this post. (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=97612&postcount=239)
I don't think its a lemon. Unfortunately we have 15 of them and they are all identical. I guess it could have been a bad run of them or something. One of them has a broken key so I'll be getting a replacement keyboard for it under warranty. If its any better I may be ordering 14 more under warranty :-D
i don't normally read the wiki, so i've only noticed this just now, but the wiki's definition of rollover appears to be incongruent with itself.
Any technique that can correctly recognize a new key even though n - 1 keys are
already pressed and are still down is said to exhibit n-key roll-over. ...
Two-key rollover will generate two keystrokes accurately if the second key is depressed before the first key is released.
There are two approaches to solving this problem — 2-key rollover and N-key rollover. In 2-key rollover, once a key is pressed, any other pressed key is not ...
My bad. My Comfort Curve 2000 is a 3-key, then. It only seems to have trouble when you press down the center keys of the middle row, though.
The original Microsoft Natural I've got is a 3-key as well. It's such a crying shame considering that its fit and finish is light years beyond any of Microsoft's current models.
It could be they are sourcing keyboards from different manufacturers. For the Thinkpad T60 series, apparently there are some made by NMB and others in China. BTW, the rollover hehavior might be according to US patent 4420744. Do any of the missing keys appear when one of them is released?
This whole definition topic is a bit of a pain in the rear really, as the web is lacking good references.
I tried it with Google Books now, hoping to find something in dead tree format. Alas, it seems like the definition was anything but clear even in the olden days.
- For every keyboard that doesn't have a hardware solution to ghosting (diodes, capacitive switches, etc) , there exists a combination of keys that can be pressed at the same time, up to the number of rows in the matrix, that won't cause ghosting. As soon as a second key is pressed in the same row as one already being depressed ghosting may occur (depending on the state of the rest of the switches.
- For every keyboard that doesn't have a hardware solution to ghosting, there exists one or more combination of 3 keys that, when pressed together will cause ghosting.
- With a hardware solution, any number of keys can be pressed simultaneously, and correctly decoded by the controller.
- Its possible for the hardware designer to limit the above to ignore any key presses past x.
- The USB interface limits the number of keys that can be transmitted to the host to 6, and therefore any (standard, driverless) USB keyboard is limited to at most 6 simultaneous keys, regardless of the number of rows in the matrix, or any hardware solution to ghosting (however with a solution in place, you are always guaranteed 6 keys).
'Hardware solution to ghosting' is meaningless without context, the statement applies to keyboards that use the matrix method of detecting keys in what's currently it's most common form.
The maximum number of keys is going to be equal to or less than the number of rows or columns, whichever is smaller. I don't know if it's guaranteed to be equal to that though.
QuoteWith a hardware solution, any number of keys can be pressed simultaneously, and correctly decoded by the controller.This one is just meaningless stated as is.
No, the USB specification allows six keys plus modifiers per packet so assuming your keyboard has the standard modifiers you can send ten or so keys.
From what I've gathered the issue is that USB only sends key down events and assumes that if a key isn't reported in the next packet that it's been released. I could be wrong though, but if you want to make definitive statements about the USB spec I'd read it first, I believe it's freely availible.
For every keyboard that doesn't have a hardware solution to ghosting, there exists one or more combination of 3 keys that, when pressed together will cause ghosting.
A necessary condition for ghosting is to have two keys in the same row pressed (that's what sets up the loop in the circuit), so its possible to find a combination of key presses up to the number of rows that will not ghost. Unless I'm missing something, you can have any number of keys in the same column pressed without seeing a ghosting effect (provided there are no other keys pressed in the same row).
What I mean by hardware solution is either something like diodes, non-closure type switches, or something similar. Its not a problem that can be solved in software, and still use a matrix layout.
I just mean that if you correctly implement hardware anti-ghosting, that there is no limit on how many keys the controller can detect (obviously within the bounds of the matrix). At this point the matrix design, and row/column layout are no longer set the bound on the number of keys the computer will ultimately see pressed.
Would ghosting be the term for when a keyboard does not detect a keyup after a button is pressed? So that it thinks the button is pressed until you press and release it again to reset it?
It's called "KeyScan" v0.9 by Digital Genesis. Unfortunately, the download link is no longer working at http://www.digitalgenesis.comActually, for me it worked (http://ftp://ftp.digitalgenesis.com/pub/keyscan/).
Oddly, I've had better luck with cheap (read: less than $10) keyboards playing nicely and not one single "gaming" keyboard will accept my key combination variations using the directional keys...Interesting point. I think you're not the first one to notice that these cheap boards tend to be doing better than their fancier cousins. I'd guess that these may be using a standard IBM matrix layout or at least something close, and that isn't too badly designed. You can check the wiki for blocking patterns.
I cannot recall if the G15/G11 version1 (blue backlight; folding LCD screen) failed my directional keystoke tests...both pass WASD/ESDF easily, but directional keys are where it's important to me.
On my G15 V1, holding down the right Shift and/or Ctrl keys stops the inverted T direction keys from working well. E.g. Shift-Up-Right fails, Ctrl-Down-Left fails. Ironically, if you use left Shift and Ctrl, any combination of the four arrow keys works. Isn't that a kick in the teeth?!
You know what would be useful? An algorithm that takes a blocking pattern and spits out a matching key matrix. Obviously you'll only catch a single column/row permutation but that usually does the job (otherwise you still have sort of a Rubik's Cube problem remaining). Basically one would have to start with two keys and then note the ones that are blocked. Then replace one of the two keys with a new one and check again. Might become somewhat tedious, but still better than opening up the board and tracing the matrix by hand.
So test to see which 2 of the 3 original keys have that property. You now know the remaining key is the corner one, and have started solving the puzzle.
Is there any difference between rows and columns when it comes to working out the matrix?Don't think so.
I'm maxing out 9 here with the Steelseries 7G.
They must have some crazy matrix routing in that Chicony KB-5312.
Now I'm wondering whether I should really toss that one.
matias tactile pro 2.0 ("PC no optimizer" firmware)
min: 3
max: 5
Max and typical mean nothing. Post the lowest. So in this case, you have a zero key rollover 'board...
Keyboard : TVS Gold USB
OS : Windows Vista
Rollover test score - 5 keys register at once (QWEAS)
i'll have a tvs gold in about 4 days, lol. I'm looking forward to owning the infamous board.
Infamous? It's a piece of crap. Makes the DSI ASK-6600U seem like a Topre in comparison.
Infamous? It's a piece of crap. Makes the DSI ASK-6600U seem like a Topre in comparison.
But it's legendary crap. Show it some respect! :lol:
lol, dude I know. Its a piece of crap but its got some kitch value for some of us.
MINIMUM score is what you want to report. Maximum keys registered doesn't tell you much since most keyboards can register 6 keys maximum.
Also DO NOT USE THE TEST in the OP. It doesn't register arrow keys. Wish iMav were around to change the link to THE BETTER TEST ------>>>> http://random.xem.us/rollover.html
Try squashing ASX. If you pass you just beat the venerable IBM Model M.
For 6-key bragging rights try CTRL-QWAZX.
i'll have a tvs gold in about 4 days, lol. I'm looking forward to owning the infamous board.
I paid a price of approx. 28 USD for that board. Not bad for a blue cherry board with decent construction.
I paid a price of approx. 28 USD for that board. Not bad for a blue cherry board with decent construction.
You'd be surprised how much feel is dependent on the keycaps, and not the switches. Most likely, the TVS Gold has really cheap keycaps.
Do you really feel the TVS gold has decent construction?
Also, does it use genuine Cherry MX Blue key switches or copies?
My experience with Blue Cherry key switches is limited to the Das (which I promptly returned for a refund) and the Filco FKBN104MC/EB with plate mounted switches, the famous Filco texture coating, and true NKRO using the ps/2 connection. (no transposition problems so far)
I briefly typed on a TVS Gold owned by a contract developer who brought it over from India and I have to tell you, I was not impressed. It seemed like I had to hit each key directly on-center to get it to register. Although the key presses were clicky, it didn't sound like my Filco which is why I ask whether or not the TVS uses genuine Cherry switches or knock-offs. I guess the difference in sound and feel could also be attributed to the metal plate mounting of the switches in the Filco vs. PCB mounting in the TVS.
Wellington will be able to answer all these questions and more when his bright and shiny TVS Gol d keyboard arrives!
Infamous? It's a piece of crap. Makes the DSI ASK-6600U seem like a Topre in comparison.
The previous version of TVS Gold had only PS/2 option, and it had loose keycaps - due to really thin walls around the + shaped switch mount.
The new USB version has no problems with keycaps, they seem to have increased the wall thickness to take care of the wobbly keycaps.
Also, the switches are original blue cherry, I'll upload some photos later today.
Don't dis the 6600... well that much.
It's not a bad board-- decent switches at least-- in an ugly case and an awkward layout.
:repeats his mantra of "Blue cherries for Christmas"
Hey man, I own a DSI ASK-6600U and I think it's a great keyboard, especially for the money.
I like the way it looks - the lettering on mine is perfect.
If I could just get rid of that annoying ringing soud...Definitely. I've been on buckling springs for years, and the family complains regarding the noise. It seems to have reduced a bit.
Although practically, they are Fukkas.
If you ask Santa Claus for a Blue Cherry keyboard for Christmas, insist on a Filco FKBN104NC/EB or one of Filco 10 keyless Blue Cherry keyboards.
That's the definition of insanity - or at the very least, a sign of an obsessive-compulsive disorder :crazy:
is it normal to always have the keypresses in the same order
i mean i switch hands and everything but its always the same
if the keyboard were 100% accurate this would be statistically unlikely
xraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraxraraxraxraxraxraxraxraxra
I'm all for hypothetical situations and success, but if my keyboard WAS true NKRO but failed this test I don't think I would care.
Need to try it on my non-NKRO Filco.
HE QUIC BROWN OX UMP OVER HE Z OG
TJE QYICK BRPWM FOX KIMPED PVER TKE KAZI DIG
Blue Cherry Filco NKRO QWERTY. I never was any good with that right shift key - I find the pinky extension too far.
Razer Lycosa - USBWell, if "hjk" only prints "hj", the keyboard is only 2-kro. Sad but true.Show Image(http://i37.tinypic.com/2m2yo08.jpg)
HE QUIC BROWN OX UMPS OVER HE AZ DOG
ASX - Does ASX
Passes the test, but I can press "hjk" and k wont work.
Has anyone ever heard of the NKRO test which has you type
THE QUICK BROWN FOX JUMPS OVER THE LAZY DOG
...with BOTH shift keys held down?
I never had, and my HHKB got every letter, but I looked on Google and apparently most boards skip letters and it is a somewhat popular test.
I just tried my Logitech G15v1 and came up with QWAZX + ctrl + enter + shift
So six keys + modifier keys.
so wait
you are misspelling 'fox', or spelling 'fox' prints 'fpx' on the filco?
fancy bullets!
- Boards with a poor algorithm that can't track complex sequences of key presses/releases. (I.e. needs all keys to be released often it order to reset its tracking.)
Correct - especially that last part. Bwahahaha!
Spotted **** can. It's a strange conversation starter for the office.
HR: "Excuse me, what's in that can?"
ItlnStln: "It's a British desert".
HR: "**** is an obscene word".
ItlnStln: "It's short for Richard (mumbling ****head under his breath)".
HR: "Get rid of it"
ItlnStln: "We carry it on our Grocery shelves! We have a Special Relationship with the Brits. You have cultural insensitivity!"
HR: "You're fired - we're writing 'Has Spotted **** and Refuses Treatment - medical reasons' - on the form".
BTW - We have a Wiki. O2dazone likes to hide it though.
KB: Deck Legend
Interface: PS/2
switches: black cherry linear
Keys accepted: 36
No combo I can try fails. I don't doubt I could get more than 36 if I could position my hands right.
Better to post Minimums though like whether it passes CTRL-QWAZX.
He works at a school. Mrs. Green AND Mrs. Brown's kindergarten classes all put in a hand or two or three or......
Could some people with NKRO boards repeat the test I did here (http://geekhack.org/showpost.php?p=139649&postcount=12).
If you have the same problem as me, do you still get it with a PS/2 connection? All my NKRO boards are USB only, so I can't test it.
Deck 82 fails on some 3 key combos (QWE). I guess only the 105 gets rollover.
by the way, a totally immaculate blank black keyboard looks awesome.
So in other words you have 1key rollover. That's pretty funny!It's unrealistic though. It seems like the TVS Gold uses a fairly straightforward IBM-style keyboard matrix, no diodes and stuff (as I'd have expected). It should always manage 2KRO.
Whoa, my HP controller has 4-key rollover minimum. QWAZ ever time. Time to put real switches on that one.
no, he has 8 key rollover on QWERUIOP
I never visit AVSForum anymore. I can't stand wading through hundreds of "me too" and "has anyone fixed this yet" posts. It's hard to find what you are looking for there.
Sure you can. It's just that the forum strips them away when creating a new post in an attempt to avoid mail-list-esque quote wrecks.QuoteQuoteWell, in case anybody wanders in here ignore the OP and use this:
MINIMUM score is what you want to report. Maximum keys registered doesn't tell you much since most keyboards can register 6 keys maximum.
Also DO NOT USE THE TEST in the OP. It doesn't register arrow keys. Wish iMav were around to change the link to THE BETTER TEST ------>>>> http://random.xem.us/rollover.html
Try squashing ASX. If you pass you just beat the venerable IBM Model M.
For 6-key bragging rights try CTRL-QWAZX.
(wow, I didn't know you could nest quotes)
Sure you can. It's just that the forum strips them away when creating a new post in an attempt to avoid mail-list-esque quote wrecks.
I first learned about this idea from 4chan, someone on /v/ did it, but I remembered that the phrase "The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog," has all the 26 letters of the alphabet in it. What I learned was it can be used as a way of testing keyboards. The idea of the test is to hold in both shift keys and type the phrase. I guess performance is based on how many characters show up. This probably doesn't directly matter for gaming, but it's kind of fun just to compare results, I think.
Also, I did a lot of forum searches, didn't find this anywhere, so if it did exist, my apologies, I tried.
Try either typing the whole alphabet or the above phrase with both shift keys held down.
I'll try both:
ABDFGHJKLNSTY - alphabet
THKBNFJDOTHLAYDG - The quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog.
Laptop keyboard on an HP Pavillion dv5z. Wow...
OK, I'm game:
The Quick Brown Fox Jumps over da lazy dog an dat boil on mah ass.
You do realize that the double shift test is the stupidest keyboard test ever? As proven here as well. (http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=880505)
And we must be thankful for this, as newsgroup-type quote wrecks are truly terrible things, especially when the reader (the interface, not the person) is doing a bad job segmenting things visually.Crappy software, crappy output - surprise surprise. (Haven't had any issues with 40tude Dialog or Seamonkey Mail / Thunderbird. Let's not even mention Ouchlook Excess.)
Here's a browser based test for people wanting to try the rollover capabilities of their keyboard.
From the Microsoft R&D team. LINK. (http://www.microsoft.com/appliedsciences/AntiGhostingExplained.mspx)
It doesn't have the FCN keys or ALT (weird) but anyway test this:
1. ASX
2. ASZ
In a FPS imagine a diagonal retreat and trying to Radio.
The app is a bit flakey (stops working randomly like most Microsoft products) but pretty intuitive.
then http://random.xem.us/rollover.html remains the best test?
I mean, at SOME point Pause has to send a break code.
Filco Blue Cherry. Same result as my 87U.
I mean, at SOME point Pause has to send a break code.
I suspect it's your computer, not the keyboard.
I'm using the PS/2 adapter that came included. Perhaps that's the reason?I think Pause is treated as a normal key for USB keyboards, but is special for PS/2 keyboards -- in particular, it always sends a make/break pair whenever you press it. My Pause key won't stay held down on my PS/2-connected Filco, but it does stay held down on a USB-connected Filco (they are different keyboards on different machines, but I don't think that fact affects the result).
You probably have a diode inside each Cherry MX switch. Next time you have a key off shine a light down there.Show Image(http://geekhack.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2198&stc=1&d=1240887075)
Ok, use THIS LINK (http://rollover.geekhack.org) to test your keyboard's rollover capabilities.
Reply in this thread with your results and with as much info about the keyboard as possible (including the interface, USB, PS/2, etc).
Enjoy!
Links or it didn't happen.
With others words, the USB HID driver CAN handle the XL descriptors if you just tell it to?
I could understand that most vendors would like to keep just one mode though, saves on testing in all those different modes.
This may have been answered before, but what rollover do the non-nkro Filco keyboards have? Is it 6 key rollover? thanks in advance!
Anything rubber dome except for the Microsoft X4 is going to be 2 key rollover.Incidentally, I just happen to know a little bit about the X4. (Recently had a short conversation with one of the designers, public parts posted here (http://www.thebestcasescenario.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24147).)
But yah, I wish iMav would wikify stickies, edit the OP, or something. This is turning into a pretty useless sticky ...lol, I suspect iMav is a busy man. Overlooks a few (sticky) loose ends here and there. He probably just polled this thread out when he wanted opinions about something, got what he wanted (or didn't want), then promptly forgot all about it and left his helpful community litter all over the bloody place.
LOL I included an actual picture of it, with the name written on top.
PS: Sorry for the bad quality pictures, but my graphics card broke and is awaiting replacement so I have to make do with a PCI S3 Virge 4MB, which cant even support high resolutions and true color :D
I'm cranking on this Nkey Wiki BTW - it's gonna snuff this most useless of stickies.Nice one taking the time to do it. It will be greatly appreciated.
I meant I'm creating a Nkey entry in the wiki section of the forum summarizing which keyboards are:
Tested Full NKRO or Tested 6-Key
"Gaming Optimized" and failure modes
Standard 2KRO and failure modes
As well as halfway coherent instructions on how to test. Reading this thread shows that 99% of the American population needs to join the Military and learn how to follow instructions.
Got a link? Frankly I'm concentrating on the currently shipping models and the classic keyboards: IBM and....uh, IBM.
Yep, I had that one for a while too to harvest Double shots off of. AKA MX8100.
That and one other Cherry POS keyboard (where is that sucker in this 35 page thread?) are NKRO. For a while the Cherry "Advanced Performance Line" was rumored to all be NKRO but that proved to be false.
I have to work on this Nkey Keyboard Reference Wiki in small bursts. Gives me a headache. I figure I have until the Razer Pseudo-Nkey BlackWidow ships before it gets interesting.