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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: dante on Sat, 02 March 2013, 18:30:59
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I'm interested in those who are staunch supporters of the ISO layout: Why are you holding out from switching to another?
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Errrr... I'm guessing it's just whatever you're used to.
Why are some ANSI supports unwilling to use any ISO boards? (such as myself)
For me, I can't see any usefulness of the vertical enter key.. but I've never really tried to see any either.
So, before you ask others to depend ISO. Why don't you defend ANSI?
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I guess it comes down to - if ISO has any advantages that other layouts don't.
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I still like ISO, because of the huge enter key. It was what my keyboards had when I was a kid growing up (born 1988)
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ISO layout has an extra key because of national alphabet extensions (AFAIK e.g. Nordic layouts depend on it a lot).
For me, vertical Enter is more comfortable when doing stuff in TeX, due to the backslash key on home row (it should be noted that I use US Colemak). Obviously, I prefer ANSI for other purposes, though.
Physical ISO layout makes it easier to use some wide layout mod (e.g. DreymaR's wide Colemak mod (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1438)). I'd definitely switch to something like that because it feels much more comfortable than just ordinary staggered QWERTY... if I weren't about to completely convert to matrix keyboards.
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I use both as happened to have one of each. I like the layout of the ISO more, I think it comes down to what you have used all the time. Plus ANSI doesn't have an easy to access \ key when you use it with a UK layout.
I don't see what the fuss is about really. It's a shame you can't always get the nicest keys for ISO but the recent group buys have catered for that so now my home board will look good as well as be good to type on.
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I am not using English-ISO, I am using Swedish layout, which just happens to be an ISO layout.
As a Swede and as a programmer by profession, I need easy access to all letters in the Swedish alphabet (three more than in English) and to all symbols and dead-keys that are available in the Swedish layout under Windows . I am used to this layout and I know all symbols on Shift and Alt Gr without looking.
That is what is important with the layout, not the shape of the Return key. I am pretty sure that I could adapt to use a horizontal Return.
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I dunno... why should we defend ISO?!
ANSI proponents always say ISO left Shift is too far away, even though it's only as far as right Shift is. :rolleyes:
Yet they also say Enter is within easy pinky reach, even though it's further than any Shift. :rolleyes:
ISO is easy to defend for a programmer - two more symbols within reach of the home keys. 'Nuff said. :cool:
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My keyboard layout is designed around it, shifting my right hand over one place. So, basically I gain another key, and a more useful layout around the right hand.
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I only "support" ISO, because the EU-ISO keyboards have one additional key - and i need that key. If there were a 105 key ANSI layout i would have no problem switching between the layouts. Maybe this isn't just me but many (non-english) european customers.
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I am not using English-ISO, I am using Swedish layout, which just happens to be an ISO layout.
^ this, since we have 3 more letters.
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For me it is pretty simple, I grew up with ANSI layout.
If I learned to type (not basic letter block, but all symbols programmer need) on ISO keyboard I would use ISO layout, but I learned on ANSI.
For me preferred keyboard layout is like religion, at first it is a matter of where you were born, and after that most of users do not care to accustom themselves with new one.
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Grew up with the big F*ck off enter key and i love it :D Always miss the smaller one D;
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For me it is pretty simple, I grew up with ANSI layout.
If I learned to type (not basic letter block, but all symbols programmer need) on ISO keyboard I would use ISO layout, but I learned on ANSI.
For me preferred keyboard layout is like religion, at first it is a matter of where you were born, and after that most of users do not care to accustom themselves with new one.
Nevertheless, some people convert to a different religion or yet better become atheists. I guess it would be more suitable to compare ANSI/ISO to left-/right-hand traffic.
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Except that it is sort of difficult to drive on the left side of the road, with a car that has the steering wheel on the left side. The whole traffic system is set up against you. However, if you want to change from an ISO keyboard to ANSI, you just plug it in and start banging away. In those rare occasions you need to type a special character that is not mapped to a key, you just have to press a combination of keys to produce that character.
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@davkol:
Some of us convert to vintage keyboards (most Buckling Spring 122 key keyboards are ISO).
Some of us choose ANSI HHKB despite being raised in ISO region.
And even some of us leave IOS/ANSI discussion and take ergonomic way (ErgoDox anyone)?
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Funny you mention it. My secondary keyboard is TypeMatrix.
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i find it baffling that people who are so enthusiastic and knowledgable about keyboards still use staggered layouts at all.
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Defend that Enter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just don't chew on it, size might be hazardous :D
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ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut :))
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ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut :))
Circumcised? :-\
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ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut :))
Not a valid comparison. None of ISO or ANSI is better than the other, while uncut is clearly superior to cut.
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ANSI vs ISO reminds me of cut vs uncut :))
Not a valid comparison. None of ISO or ANSI is better than the other, while uncut is clearly superior to cut.
Not a valid statement. With most films even the trailer isn't cut enough
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i find it baffling that people who are so enthusiastic and knowledgable about keyboards still use staggered layouts at all.
I would call it a matter of availability.
Mechanical non staggered keyboards are hard to get Europe. The only two I can name from top of my head are Kinesis Advantage and Maltron, their prices are outrageous.
We will have to wait until someone in China streamline ErgoDox for mass manufacture.
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Nah, just look at all those POS terminals.
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Nah, just look at all those POS terminals.
its called vintage, nothing wrong with it, and you never need new keycaps with quality as IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp....
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I wouldn't call a brand new 112key elcom I bought last summer vintage, but nevermind...
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I prefer ISO because it is easier to type in cyrillic. Not a problem for most people, but it is the only reason I will defend ISO as much as I do.
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Basically it's what I've been working on all my life, and I've grown to love it. Where's the advantage to me of losing a key, and losing that beautiful return key?
I mean, if there was advantages it would be something I could consider sure, but it's like a downgrade to go from ISO to ANSI.
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I like it for the extra key, and I plan to use that with the GH60 to have an ISO HHKB without having a small backspace. I'm going to move the `~ key to the right of the left shift.
And I spent some time in Europe working on software - had to get used to the ISO layout (I still sometimes accidentally hit the long enter key).
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I like it for the extra key, and I plan to use that with the GH60 to have an ISO HHKB without having a small backspace.
Someone said "ISO HHKB"? ;D
I am building this keyboard, having taken the opposite choices of yours (if I understand correctly).
The layout is Swedish with a short left Shift key and another symbol key next to it, but the Return key is horizontal, Backspace is over Return and Delete is over Backspace like on the HHKB. The legends are not very visible in this picture because they are engraved and strong sunlight is hitting them from the wrong angle...
[attach=1]
The plate is a modified Phantom (PHWIN) plate, keycaps from WASD Keyboards. The build is on hold for now, will prioritize my Phantom which is still not done.
BTW, if you use a Phantom plate without a PCB, then you must glue horizontal stops around some switches to keep them from moving sideways. The Caps Lock key and the Space Bar need this mod, and my modified plate needed it in a few more...
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I switched to ANSI when I started getting interested in keyboards, but the main reason for doing so was because there are fewer ISO keyboards, and especially fewer ISO custom keycaps (although that seems to be changing)
If I could switch my current keyboards for ISO versions without any other loss etc then I'd be happy to :)
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its always cool to have as much variety as possible. monoculture is boring as hell....mkäy.
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its always cool to have as much variety as possible. monoculture is boring as hell....mkäy.
Oh wait, those are standards. It's better to have less of them, even though it doesn't work like that (http://xkcd.com/927/) in the end.
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With big buttons comes great power.
I love smashing my ISO enter key and make it resound all over the place.
It's like taming a wild beast!
Ok, I'm gone too far :))
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I was born with spanish iso, I even have something along what I think as a signature...
I can't get used to ansi, the enter key is for sissy fingers. I like my enter big and where I cannot loose it from sight.
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Can we not hate both but prefer ansi because the " position actually makes sense and it's harder to accidently hit backspace (atleast for my mother lol).
Why hate both? Lack of useful symbol placement (surely degree is more important than(`), lack of thumb usage and poor backspace placement...
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I live in Holland. Over here we have the pleasure of having different common keyboard layout , differing from ANSI to ISO and strange hybrids. The most common ones are the Dutch layout and something they call US international, which is the same most of the time, but sometimes suddenly ISO, and changes only some of the symbols around. Pointless imo.
Personally I avoid ISO like the plague.
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I'd love to try out more keyboards so I may be forced to switch from ISO to ANSI... :(
Having that extra key right next to the modifiers is an absolute godsend for custom hotkeys! Not sure how I'd cope without it.
(http://i.imgur.com/eDxxxLw.png)
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Personally (as a German) I couldn't live without a 2-row Enter and a big backspace. I tried a keyboard once which had a small backspace and a big fat enter - so horrible xD
Also, I have taught myself 10-finger-writing on this layout, and it was hard enough to do so and cost about 3 years - there's just no point to switch to another one.
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Personally (as a German) I couldn't live without a 2-row Enter and a big backspace. I tried a keyboard once which had a small backspace and a big fat enter - so horrible xD
Also, I have taught myself 10-finger-writing on this layout, and it was hard enough to do so and cost about 3 years - there's just no point to switch to another one.
Thank god for the gh60, I'm not sure if there even are 60% boards with iso layout. Of course I'd give my left nut for iso hhkb but for now cherry has to cut it ^^
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I didn't have the chance to use an ISO layout but I really do like dat enter key (grew up with big enters), but i can't live with a shorter left shift :(
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its just the habit. :)
ergonomic wise.....small left shift is on the same position as right shift. So people telling they cant reach the small left shift, should have the same problem with right shift. That isnt the case....so either its just bollocks or they have different sized pinky fingers. ;D
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its just the habit. :)
ergonomic wise.....small left shift is on the same position as right shift. So people telling they cant reach the small left shift, should have the same problem with right shift. That isnt the case....so either its just bollocks or they have different sized pinky fingers. ;D
There are 2 controls yet I rarely use the right side ctrl :D Only time I'll use the right shift is when my left hand is occupied
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For Europeans like me who use national layouts, there is no discussion about this. The national layouts are ISO-only, and for typing texts it doesn't make any sense for us to use an American layout that doesn't have some of the characters that we need.
From my perspective, there are good reasons, too, why the national layouts were based on ISO instead of ANSI in the first place. For languages with more characters, the additional key makes sense, but even more the clear concept of the AltGr key that has no other function than to open a new layer of characters. And these characters are printed on the lower right part of the key legend.
The German layout could be better of course, and as a programmer I have to use AltGr far too much, but that's another story ...
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I grew up with an Ansi keyboard, but then my family moved back to sweden so I got used to the ISO layout. I'm not to bother to order an ansi board even if i might type slightly faster/more properly on one because shipping is an ass, and the enter keys are pretty sweet, I think I would actually enjoy a terminal keyboard as the enter key looks so satisfying. The small shift key is kinda handy for starcraft as I can bind the < key to patrol.
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Simply with my national layout i feel at home, MY home
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JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.
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JIS also has a small Backspace and various additional keys on the bottom row for Japanese. These keyboards often have small Space bars in the exact centre of the bottom row. Personally, I hit the Space Bar right below 'N' and 'M' where on a JIS keyboard there would be a Kana key.
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JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.
Burn the false prophet
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I also hit the spacebar only with my right thumb between N and M, on my laptop keyboard you can see the shiny dot very well there :D
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JIS layout is much smarter than ISO, where they place the extra key as subtract from the much larger right shift, and also since that extra character is a punctuation on most layouts, it makes sense if it was where the rest of the punctuation is grouped on the right side. I move that all ISO keyboards should be replaced with JIS for a better tomorrow.
Even though the right space key is much larger on the ISO layout, what matters is the distance to the home position of the pinky. With the ISO layout, both shifts are nearly at same distance from A or ; respectively. With ANSI or even more with JIS Layout, the right shift is further away than the left one. Also I don't care about the punctuation being grouped together. For me, it's actually easier to remember what's where if they're not grouped together.
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We're talking about staggered layout. Wrists are positioned at different angles, hence you can't just compare distances.
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JIS is even worse when you hold your wrists asymmetrically.
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I prefer ISO! When using an ANSI keyboard, it takes some time to get used to the size and position of the Return key. There shouldn't be any typeable characters in between the function keys, which is just begging for making mistakes. The extra language characters on most of the ISO layouts also puts the less common characters under the second level Alt Gr, which makes a lot of sense (how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?). The smaller Shift key on ISO doesn't bother me as it's still the same size as Ctrl, although it makes me use the right Shift more often.
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how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?
Almost every software developer, TeX user,... Mostly people who are actually serious about computers. ^.^
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how many people seriously use \ that often that it needs to have its own key?
Almost every software developer, TeX user,... Mostly people who are actually serious about computers. ^.^
I see that TeX users need it, and they sure need it a lot, but I don't really see the need even for software developers. When I write C or C++ code, the backslashes turn up at places where you would need to pause to think for a while anyway, and it's really not difficult to press two keys at once those times. Sure, it could save some time to use a US layout to get faster [ ] and semicolons, but i would then prefer the UK ISO layout, which is pretty similar. For most local country versions, I think that the ISO layouts are more logically planned, to resemble the normal usage in standard language, and place the lesser used characters under modifiers.
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Don't forget that the pipe is on the same key on standard QWERTY.
Moreover, there's this retarded use of backslash as path delimiter on MS Windows.
edit: escape sequences
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Don't forget that the pipe is on the same key on standard QWERTY.
Moreover, there's this retarded use of backslash as path delimiter on MS Windows.
edit: escape sequences
Yeah, sure but it's still two keys to push for the pipe (shift+\ in a US layout, compared to AltGr+< in some European ISO layouts). The escape sequences is the only thing that I use the backslash for, and when you do them, you need to think, so I have no problem doing that. Well, the backslash key debate is actually more about the language layout than about ISO/ANSI, but most of the extra characters on the US keyboard layout is more directed towards technical use, than to regular writing.
In the ANSI layout, the backslash key would be the most "annoying" part for writing anything other than TeX, or programming as it gets in the way of the return key. For me, I can press the ISO return key with my pinky without moving the hand too much, and without bending the finger in any direction. Using the ANSI layout, I need to bend my finger in a crazy way, to avoid hitting backslash, or move my full hand to push return.
I consider the absolutely worst keyboard layout to be the European ANSI keyboard layout, where the backspace key is the same size as any other key on the keyboard, to get the space for the extra key. Here, it's not only that you easily can write the wrong characters, but when you want to remove them, you also miss the backspace key.
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Yeah, sure but it's still two keys to push for the pipe (shift+\ in a US layout, compared to AltGr+< in some European ISO layouts). The escape sequences is the only thing that I use the backslash for, and when you do them, you need to think, so I have no problem doing that. Well, the backslash key debate is actually more about the language layout than about ISO/ANSI, but most of the extra characters on the US keyboard layout is more directed towards technical use, than to regular writing.
AltGr + Q/W on Czech QWERTZ. IMO national layouts are complete mess AFAIK.
In the ANSI layout, the backslash key would be the most "annoying" part for writing anything other than TeX, or programming as it gets in the way of the return key. For me, I can press the ISO return key with my pinky without moving the hand too much, and without bending the finger in any direction. Using the ANSI layout, I need to bend my finger in a crazy way, to avoid hitting backslash, or move my full hand to push return.
It works the other way around for me. I $@#!ing hate ISO enter, because I have to move whole hand to hit it.
I consider the absolutely worst keyboard layout to be the European ANSI keyboard layout, where the backspace key is the same size as any other key on the keyboard, to get the space for the extra key. Here, it's not only that you easily can write the wrong characters, but when you want to remove them, you also miss the backspace key.
Ummm, what? You mean that wicked Asian layout with big-ass Enter? That has nothing to do with ANSI.
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Ummm, what? You mean that wicked Asian layout with big-ass Enter? That has nothing to do with ANSI.
No, not that one, but it has the same tiny backspace, but otherwise ANSI layout, and then localized to the local language. They have the ANSI shift keys and the ANSI return key, but the extra key from the ISO layout is squeezed right next to the backspace. I couldn't find any pictures now, but I used to have one a few years ago, that was about $3 new (rubber dome and the cheapest possible plastics). I suspect that they come from a Chinese factory that wanted to save money on not making a new key mold.
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Never seen that.
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I'm posting from Rhodes island, and this is the first time I have to use ANSI layout keyboard.
And it's goddamn horrible when trying to press enter, all the time the *cking \\\\\\\ comes to spoil, because the enter key is only one row "high". The keyboard I use home has bigass enter and finnish model-f styled "ISO" layout, so the difference between enter keys is really big.
Also, the ""''::{]][[] and other symbols are in very, very strange places for me. I must watch the keyboard all the time when trying to type such symbols.
Never going to buy a keyboard with ANSI layout :smoke:
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The extra keys make it necessary. Swedish uses them quite a bit and having them in some far of location or behind multiple modifiers would be a hassle, especially singe you may also want to write a capital ÅÄÖ which might then require quite a few keys being pressed at once.
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Just bought my first mechanical although it hasn't arrived yet (Leopold) and am kinda worried about the ansi layout. I hadn't even considered it. After years of massive enter keys I think I may miss it. Although I've been using a Spanish laptop set to UK layout for the last few years (don't ask) so anything will be better than that. I can see me getting a terminal keyboard sometime though if I can one as quiet as brown switches, or maybe a cherry keyboard. I really like those raised alt keys old keyboards used to have too.
Yeah, really hoping the small enter key isn't an issue.
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My 2 cents.
I'm an ANSI user since I'm American.
Since I'm a touch typer with relatively high WPM I have alot of trouble adjusting to the other keyboard layouts.
I've used the ISO layout a few times in Europe, it's very annoying to have to look down to look for those symbols such as @. #, " " and etc
Particularly, the @ which I commonly use and is normally typed with the left hand for us ANSI users but it's over on the right for the ISO layout.
I've also used the JIS layout (which is close to the ISO layout) when I was over in Japan. I was typing in English and it was just difficult again because of the different key layout.
I don't think one keyboard layout is better than the other - it's just a matter of what you are used to and your typing proficiency.
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The big enter, baby. I love it on my Model F.
The small left shift, however, takes some adjustment.
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I grew up with ISO, and while I don't think we need the extra key so much in the UK, I like having the \| key right next to shift on the left (Very useful as one of the 3 push to talk buttons I use when gaming). I also like that there's nothing between the enter and backspace keys because I have pretty long fingers so its much easier for me to use the top of the enter key.
Could I use ANSI? Yes. Would it be as quick and easy even after I learned where the keys are? No.
However I am starting to research and consider switching one board to colemak, and I'm not entirely sure whether ANSI would prove as disadvantageous in that case as ANSI colemak seems more established. I still think that the small enter is a drawback, but caps being remapped as backspace still gives me that extra useful key.
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Gaming, baby! Oh yeah!
The extra key within reach of your left hand when gaming is nice. And I am quite used to the big Enter key and like to just bash somewhere in the general vicinity to emphasise "I am now done with this line!" and know it will work.
Like that!
BAM!
And again.... MUAHAHAHA!
Also, as a Windows programmer, having backslash and pipe in easy to reach places is nice (UK ISO layout). Finnish ISO layout isn't so code-friendly (it's actually really sucky, so it just proves it doesn't really matter too much since there are so many brilliant Finnish coders).
But it sucks finding keycaps to fit. Most of the best sets are ANSI only. :(
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That extra key is useful. Standard keyboards already have too few keys available, every little helps. One day I could switch to Japanese keyboards.
I also type with the bottom left keys shifted one column to the left, and the ISO layout fits such scheme perfectly. Such scheme helps with the admittedly awkward placement of the left Shift key: it has the same distance as the right Shift, but since in traditional touch typing hands do not follow a symmetrical pattern, the left Shift feels farther.
Since I type with my right keys shifted one key to the right, I wouldn't mind the smaller Enter key of the ANSI layout.
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That extra key is useful. Standard keyboards already have too few keys available, every little helps. One day I could switch to Japanese keyboards.
I also type with the bottom left keys shifted one column to the left, and the ISO layout fits such scheme perfectly. Such scheme helps with the admittedly awkward placement of the left Shift key: it has the same distance as the right Shift, but since in traditional touch typing hands do not follow a symmetrical pattern, the left Shift feels farther.
Since I type with my right keys shifted one key to the right, I wouldn't mind the smaller Enter key of the ANSI layout.
Some mechanical keyboard PCB's allow for either layout on the same board, so you could possibly move the switches on the right hand side and use a mix of ISO and ANSI caps.
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I use ISO because it is necessary in order to fit the required extra characters. You do not want letters used frequently to be hidden under layers.
I've used the ISO layout a few times in Europe, it's very annoying to have to look down to look for those symbols such as @. #, " " and etc
Particularly, the @ which I commonly use and is normally typed with the left hand for us ANSI users but it's over on the right for the ISO layout.
I've also used the JIS layout (which is close to the ISO layout) when I was over in Japan. I was typing in English and it was just difficult again because of the different key layout.
I was confused there for a while because I did not understand how you could possibly use the right hand to press @ on ISO. Most ISO-types, including mine have @ on the left side, for instance located under 2 or Q. I did not realize that UK ISO has placed the @ elsewhere. I do not see the reason for doing that. It would likely be easier for me to switch from my ISO to ANSI rather than to UK ISO.