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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: quanticle on Tue, 12 March 2013, 17:03:40
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
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I like trackpoints too.
I ended up with "building" a keyboard with trackpoint for me.
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/mod-add-a-trackpoint-to-a-tipro-mid-series-t4214.html (http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/mod-add-a-trackpoint-to-a-tipro-mid-series-t4214.html)
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
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Most reports say Unicomp's trackpoint isn't that good, though-- apparently, it's based on the TrackPoint II, and neither feels right nor creates reasonably fast cursor movement (changing Windows cursor speed is not legitimate).
I think there are at least a few of us who would be very interested in a TKL with MX (or perhaps good ALPS, though I'm not sure that would work for me personally as, as far as I know, there isn't any acceptably good ALPS equivalent to MX Black currently in production) switches and a TrackPoint of TrackPoint IV quality-- but thus far, it seems that no manufacturer is both willing and able to overcome the challenges of delivering such a product.
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That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
soon™
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Most reports say Unicomp's trackpoint isn't that good, though-- apparently, it's based on the TrackPoint II, and neither feels right nor creates reasonably fast cursor movement (changing Windows cursor speed is not legitimate).
This is correct. Remember that TrackPoint itself was created by IBM, licensed out to Maxi-Switch and Lexmark for manufacture, and then jointly developed with Maxi-Switch for the TrackPoint II improvements. Since then, we're up to TrackPoint IV - and yes, these are hardware changes - but nothing above a II has been put in a keyboard from the factory. Unicomp would need to get a new license from Lenovo, or redesign their controller to accommodate a license from HP, Dell, etcetera.
The biggest problem with pre-III's is that III introduced basic momentum. (IV's is much better.) That's what makes a TrackPoint II suck so much after using a III or IV. It's incredibly slow in the keyboard due to controller design choice and being from a different era of monitors, and it lacks momentum in any fashion. Don't blame Unicomp for that - the thing comes from an era where 1280x1024 was high resolution. And if you're running at that resolution, the TrackPoint II is actually quite nice.
Now that said, you can get a mechanical (scissor switch) TrackPoint III keyboard which is TKL. It is literally, and I do mean literally, a ThinkPad keyboard with a lower housing. But I have had no luck finding them anywhere of late. The current Lenovo is essentially identical, but I've heard complaints about lower quality keyboard switches on those. Still, they're found on eBay for under $50 often, so worth a shot.
I think there are at least a few of us who would be very interested in a TKL with MX (or perhaps good ALPS, though I'm not sure that would work for me personally as, as far as I know, there isn't any acceptably good ALPS equivalent to MX Black currently in production) switches and a TrackPoint of TrackPoint IV quality-- but thus far, it seems that no manufacturer is both willing and able to overcome the challenges of delivering such a product.
That's because it's impossible to do with most switches and it is extremely expensive from an engineering standpoint. What you need to understand is that on a TrackPoint or similar, there is a fairly large strain sensor underneath the stick itself. That strain sensor footprint isn't much smaller than an MX switch. There simply isn't the PCB real estate - or vertical real estate - to slap it into an existing design. The amount of engineering work required to actually make this happen is very high, and very costly, because it would require modifying the actual TrackPoint itself substantially.
There's also ancillary costs. For one, you can't do it with plate mount boards. Those are straight out. There's not enough room for the stick to pass through, the end. That means PCB mount only to start with. Well, that doesn't work for a strain sensor - it has to be isolated from the PCB flex. Then you have to make new molds for the GHB keys. You also need a larger memory space in the controller and more processing power, meaning a whole new controller design is required. (It won't fit on the U-shaped ones, either.)
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Well, this thread has sorta dampened my interest in the Unicomp Endurapro. I have a great keyboard with a trackball that doesn't have basic momentum, and I'm getting a bit tried of the slow speed.
The trackpoint could work on a split mechanical keyboard like the Ergodox. I'm sure somebody that bought the thing during the Massdrop buy will try to throw a trackpoint on there. Heck, if I knew how to do it, I would give it a try. Perhaps I'll take the time to learn...
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Well, this thread has sorta dampened my interest in the Unicomp Endurapro. I have a great keyboard with a trackball that doesn't have basic momentum, and I'm getting a bit tried of the slow speed.
The trackpoint could work on a split mechanical keyboard like the Ergodox. I'm sure somebody that bought the thing during the Massdrop buy will try to throw a trackpoint on there. Heck, if I knew how to do it, I would give it a try. Perhaps I'll take the time to learn...
The momentum is a perception thing, largely. And it makes a huge difference. Other differences with modern TrackPoint is that it's capable of tracking slightly faster, but not much. Any time you're dealing with high resolution (e.g. 5760x1200 like me) a TrackPoint is going to be slow. Be it II or IV. It's primarily for laptops - where you've got a single screen at 1920x1080 or lower.
As far as incorporating it into a custom design, it's really not hard if you've got a donor board. It's just a PS/2 or USB device, depending what you harvest from. Other than the strain sensor itself and the controller that translates those signals into input, you can pretty much just plug it in and go.
But make no mistake - the advantage of TrackPoint is in the location. Period. If you put it in the middle of a split keyboard? It will suck. It will suck so hard it is not even funny. The whole POINT of it from day one was to reduce hand movement by placing the mouse within zero-reach. (Move the mouse without moving the hands at all.) As soon as you take that away, it becomes a miserable to use mouse and nothing more.
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That's because it's impossible to do with most switches and it is extremely expensive from an engineering standpoint. What you need to understand is that on a TrackPoint or similar, there is a fairly large strain sensor underneath the stick itself. That strain sensor footprint isn't much smaller than an MX switch. There simply isn't the PCB real estate - or vertical real estate - to slap it into an existing design. The amount of engineering work required to actually make this happen is very high, and very costly, because it would require modifying the actual TrackPoint itself substantially.
There's also ancillary costs. For one, you can't do it with plate mount boards. Those are straight out. There's not enough room for the stick to pass through, the end. That means PCB mount only to start with. Well, that doesn't work for a strain sensor - it has to be isolated from the PCB flex. Then you have to make new molds for the GHB keys. You also need a larger memory space in the controller and more processing power, meaning a whole new controller design is required. (It won't fit on the U-shaped ones, either.)
Given that people have successfully modded TrackPoints into existing MX-switch keyboards of both plate-mount and PCB-mount varieties, it's clearly not impossible. Difficult to execute in a non-sketchy manner, perhaps, but not impossible. Typically, the TrackPoint unit mounts underneath the keyboard PCB/membrane...for a mechanical keyboard, you'll need a longer stick to make a TrackPoint IV high enough, but this lengthening has been done before by modders. I'm sure there are a lot of challenges that would face someone trying to come up with a better-quality implementation of the sort of changes that these modders have done, and lots more challenges with putting the end result of that procedure into production, but there's definitely enough of a proof of concept established that it's not something unreasonable to ask or hope for.
At the very least, there could be something released as a limited edition, kind of like a "custom" or community-project board, that's basically in line with what the modders have done, but a little less sketchy thanks to a purpose-built plate (if desired) and PCB, maybe a bit more of a "professionally-done" job of producing filed-down keycaps and switch housings, and a lengthened TrackPoint stem, if it's not possible to produce purpose-built parts, and hopefully some possibility of having someone do the parts harvesting and assembly for you-- personally, I don't think I could fast for long enough without dying to afford something like that, but it's hardly a sort of endeavor without precedent.
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Given that people have successfully modded TrackPoints into existing MX-switch keyboards of both plate-mount and PCB-mount varieties, it's clearly not impossible. Difficult to execute in a non-sketchy manner, perhaps, but not impossible. Typically, the TrackPoint unit mounts underneath the keyboard PCB/membrane...for a mechanical keyboard, you'll need a longer stick to make a TrackPoint IV high enough, but this lengthening has been done before by modders. I'm sure there are a lot of challenges that would face someone trying to come up with a better-quality implementation of the sort of changes that these modders have done, and lots more challenges with putting the end result of that procedure into production, but there's definitely enough of a proof of concept established that it's not something unreasonable to ask or hope for.
These are complicated, ugly affairs that require no small amount of engineering effort to do right. And no small cost. Oh, sure, it only adds what - $50ish to the cost of your typical laptop. That's because of volume and longevity. TrackPoint I was introduced in 1994 - and we're only now up to TrackPoint IV. Now figure IBM was shipping a tens of thousands of laptops (or at least the requisite keyboard assembly with TrackPoint III) per year, using the same exact design for 5 years - that's several hundred thousand units they get to recover those engineering costs across. (Plus those little nubs - holy crap, the list on those is hilarious.)
Cooler Master sells a lot of keyboards, no question, but even they don't come anywhere near the volume required to recoup the engineering costs. Nor can they get the longevity required to do it, because frankly, they're not IBM/Dell/Toshiba/etc. That's pretty much exactly why TrackPoints have never been available from anyone other than massive, massive manufacturers and why the Alps GlidePoint was such a big deal when it first came out. You need to have not only the engineering outlay, but the ability to keep a part in production essentially unchanged for years and years at a time - or a source that can do that. And no, IBM will not let you license it, nor does it solve the OTHER engineering problems.
Oh, and also there's the raw component cost. Here's a selection of force transducers (http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en/sensors-transducers/force-sensors/1966743?k=force%20transducer) to give you some idea. (I keep calling it strain gauge, but that's actually what it is.) This one (http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/FS01/480-2632-5-ND/1248967) is most accurately comparable - 0 to 1.5lbs of force, 5V supply, 1V output, pushbutton. And it's $96. I also have no idea if that's sensitive enough for the application, but I'm guessing likely not.
So yeah. $96. For a single component. That still requires the ancillary components to interpret output. And a great deal of code that has to be very, very tight on the microcontroller (which is necessarily distinct from the keyboard so no code sharing) that either has to translate your sensor to PS/2 and/or USB HID Mouse output (which requires you do ALL momentum handling in the uC) or you have to produce a signed USB HID driver to do that host-side.
So yes, it is pretty much the definition of unreasonable to expect anyone at all to make one. And no, there is no mythical 'precedent' for it - the only scale manufacturers for the technology is Tier 1s. It's too damn expensive. Unicomp is using a license from IBM and Elonex uses a very coarse, low quality off the shelf component (what do you expect? They specialize in sub-$50 readers and sub-$100 tablets.)
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I'd get a current Thinkpad USB or wireless keyboard. They are very nice to type on and not expensive either. You probably have a decent shot at trying it out beforehand if any local computer retailers carry Thinkpad laptops.
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apparently, it's based on the TrackPoint II
Not quite, Unicomp have their own design which is (in the opinion of most Trackpoint snobs) inferior to the Trackpoint II. IIRC, the Unicomp pointing stick uses a basic force sensor, whereas the IBM designs (II-IV) use a strain gauge. According to Unicomp, their design is cheaper and uses less energy. I can dig up the details if someone is particularly interested.
In addition to the poor sensitivity (which is probably something they could fix if they re-jigged the controller's electronics, but they don't seem to be too interested. At any rate, when I bought an Endurapro back in 2008, it had a controller board with (C) 2001 Unicomp stamped over it, so it is quite possible that they are no longer producing the electronics) the stick wiggles around, almost like a joystick. The Trackpoint II stayed in place like modern Trackpoints, the main problem is that the sensitivity is poor as it was designed for 800x600 or 1024x768 screens.
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As other people say... to build it yourself is almoust the only solution. I mine by disassembling a Lenovo USB keyboard and butting the trackpoint inside a Cherry G80-3000 keyboard.
... I also ergo cleared my board and put in a Logitech hyperwheel.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=11420.0
http://65.111.241.205/index.php?topic=18233.0
https://plus.google.com/photos/103690929877689543487/albums/5682640761259031889?banner=pwa
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Didn't know people still used trackpoints
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I like trackpoints too.
I ended up with "building" a keyboard with trackpoint for me.
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/mod-add-a-trackpoint-to-a-tipro-mid-series-t4214.html (http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/mod-add-a-trackpoint-to-a-tipro-mid-series-t4214.html)
did you have to drill thru the pcb? did that complicate things? i am so confused how to do this but also so interested!
is it easier on handwired keyboards?
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I think Tex may be getting ready to release a new line of Yodas soon.
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A buckling spring tlk with a trackpoint is a bit of a unicorn I believe. And even if it does exist, I don't see one going for anything less than $250. :(
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
I am also interested in a TKL Unicomp keyboard, as long as it has a sensible layout of course. They posted an update on their Facebook account in February with "more news on it in the next several months." No update since :-(.
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
I am also interested in a TKL Unicomp keyboard, as long as it has a sensible layout of course. They posted an update on their Facebook account in February with "more news on it in the next several months." No update since :-(.
The IBM ssk is the only tkl in buckling spring at the moment. With all the threads I've seen about Unicomp's tkl going back years, I don't think it will happen.
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
I am also interested in a TKL Unicomp keyboard, as long as it has a sensible layout of course. They posted an update on their Facebook account in February with "more news on it in the next several months." No update since :-(.
The IBM ssk is the only tkl in buckling spring at the moment. With all the threads I've seen about Unicomp's tkl going back years, I don't think it will happen.
Sadly I have to agree with you :-(. I hope they do release a TKL layout this year but it has been in circulation for such a long time, and at this point it looks like vapourware.
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I have a friend who I'm trying to convert to mechanical keyboards. The problem is that he really likes using the IBM Trackpoint. Now, I know Unicomp makes trackpoint enabled mechanical keyboards (like this (http://pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB40PGA) one, for example) but they all have number pad. Does anyone make a ten-keyless mechanical keyboard with a Trackpoint, or am I looking for a unicorn?
That reminds me, what ever happened to the TKL unicomp people were trying to get them to build? I thought they said they had enough interest to build one?
I am also interested in a TKL Unicomp keyboard, as long as it has a sensible layout of course. They posted an update on their Facebook account in February with "more news on it in the next several months." No update since :-(.
The IBM ssk is the only tkl in buckling spring at the moment. With all the threads I've seen about Unicomp's tkl going back years, I don't think it will happen.
Sadly I have to agree with you :-(. I hope they do release a TKL layout this year but it has been in circulation for such a long time, and at this point it looks like vapourware.
It actually pained me to make that post. I would rather be positive, but at this point the only thing I'm almost positive about is that they won't be making one anytime soon. :(