geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: rationull on Thu, 14 March 2013, 21:30:17
-
I'm currently a Kinesis Advantage user (and have been for several years) but am getting the itch to try something a little different. There are some other ergo keyboards out there that look interesting but I really want to keep the mechanical switches and don't want another keyboard that approaches the price of the Advantage. I've narrowed down the possibilities to either a Unicomp Model M or something with Cherry Blue switches (probably a Das or a Leopold).
I'd love to go with the Unicomp both for nostalgia reasons and because of the reputation they have for durability and for having just about the best tactile feedback you can get, but I'm going to use this at work and don't want to tick off my co-workers. Some noise is fine -- the Advantage isn't exactly quiet (especially when the keys bottom out) and a bunch of my co-workers have them too so we're used to it.
There are tons of YouTube comparisons but it's hard to get a really good feel for actual volume from those videos.
Is there actually much of a volume difference between a Unicomp and, say, a Das with blue switches? If the Unicomp isn't actually louder then might as well go with the legend, but if it is then I'd shoot for one of the alternatives.
Note that I realize the Das is available with brown switches, but I already have those in the Kinesis and I want to try something different.
-
I don't have both switch types at my disposal presently, but I believe the Unicomp will be the loudest. However MX Blues provide a much higher frequency click which may be perceived as even louder / annoying.
-
In actual decibels, Browns are actually louder than blues. I think that buckling springs might be technically louder, but the click of blues is much higher pitched and will be perceived as louder.
-
I think that buckling springs might be technically louder, but the click of blues is much higher pitched and will be perceived as louder.
Based on Fletcher-Munson curves, it's actually the other way around. Human hearing is less sensitive to low and high frequencies, while mid-range frequencies are heard more prominently.
-
In actual decibels, Browns are actually louder than blues. I think that buckling springs might be technically louder, but the click of blues is much higher pitched and will be perceived as louder.
I fail to see how that would be possible. Shouldn't they have the same bottoming out noise, with blues having the added click near the actuation point?
-
Both give me a headache without headphones on or white noise.
-
The "tick" of Cherry blue and green is just annoying to me. It is not particularly loud, but it just seems "wrong"
The "thock" or whatever you call it from the buckling spring is far less bothersome for me, regardless of the actual decibel level.
And coming from a flossed Model F, it is actually soothing.
-
I fail to see how that would be possible. Shouldn't they have the same bottoming out noise, with blues having the added click near the actuation point?
It's not by much, only a couple dB. Somebody on here a few years back did a test on a bunch of different mechanical keyboards using an SPL meter, and posted the results. I was just as surprised.
-
Based on Fletcher-Munson curves, it's actually the other way around. Human hearing is less sensitive to low and high frequencies, while mid-range frequencies are heard more prominently.
Technically, that's correct, but generally that refers to the range of human hearing. "Mids" are usually considered roughly from 500Hz up to 2-3KHz. Both key clicks fall well within that range, and in that range the higher pitches at the same dB are perceived as louder.
-
The high pitched tick of the blue switches is something I'd worried about a little bit, and one of the reasons for the question I guess. If the volume level (perceived) is *nearly* the same between the keyboards, that would probably give the nod to the Unicomp to me since I'm guessing the deeper sound is both less annoying and probably closer to the sound of the Kinesis keys bottoming out (and that sound already exists in our office!).
Hmm..
-
Be warned though that buckling springs have a higher actuation force.
-
I can attest to the phenomenon of blues/greens being more annoying than buckling springs. The MX click is just plain irritating to me. However, some older Model Ms and all Model Fs I have used have springs that ring. That boing-boing noise is equally irritating to me, but there are simple remedies for it.
-
Totally agree about the reverb on some of the IBM boards, one of the most annoying sounds ever next to a crying baby. I always though it was a factory defect on the boards because only a few do it.
-
According to my wife, buckling springs are much more unbearable than blues. I'm in the camp that buckling springs are legitimately louder than blues, by a fairly significant amount. Not only are they louder, but they are a different kind of loud. Blues have a relatively "simple" sound compared to buckling springs.
With blues, you get the thock of the keycap and the click of the stem, that's pretty much it. With buckling springs, you have the thock of the keycap, the ker-chunk of the buckling spring, and a slight rattle of the spring as well. There's some other stuff in there that I can't identify. But in the end, it's a rather unpleasant, complicated sound that is much more likely to annoy people (in my experience).
-
Based on Fletcher-Munson curves, it's actually the other way around. Human hearing is less sensitive to low and high frequencies, while mid-range frequencies are heard more prominently.
Technically, that's correct, but generally that refers to the range of human hearing. "Mids" are usually considered roughly from 500Hz up to 2-3KHz.
The mid frequency range (which include upper mids) that the Fletcher-Munson curves indicate hearing to be most sensitive at is 1-6kHz:
http://www.gfbeats.com/gfblog/9-gfblog/22-fletcher-munson-curves
Both key clicks fall well within that range, and in that range the higher pitches at the same dB are perceived as louder.
Yes, they're both audible within that range, however if you examine the spectrum analysis below you'll see that Buckling Springs have more overall peak energy within the 1-6kHz range while the Cherry Blues have more overall peak energy in the 6-16kHz range. Hence, according to Fletcher-Munson, Buckling Springs will be perceived as louder.
-
The twang/rattle of a bucking spring switch's spring can be removed almost completely with a floss mod. The click can not be avoided because it is created by the spring itself when it buckles.
I have heard that the thock could be reduced with large O-rings around the barrels, but I have not tried that.
I suppose that you could also reduce noise somewhat by adding foam here and there and placing the whole keyboard on a large mouse mat or desk mat.
-
Yes, the "floss" or "grease" mod will silence the ring and most of the reverberation that accompanies it. I use a Model M daily at work and occasionally at home. Both resulted in complaints from their associated parties. Both are either grease or floss modded now and I haven't had any further complaints.
I got similar complaints at work for brief periods when I used MX blue or green switches. A dampened Model M/F is quieter and less irritating than blues. I don't get complaints about MX browns, either.
-
The floss mod has the potential to change the feel of the key press, depending on the amount of floss used, at least based on my experience.
-
Based on Fletcher-Munson curves, it's actually the other way around. Human hearing is less sensitive to low and high frequencies, while mid-range frequencies are heard more prominently.
Technically, that's correct, but generally that refers to the range of human hearing. "Mids" are usually considered roughly from 500Hz up to 2-3KHz.
The mid frequency range (which include upper mids) that the Fletcher-Munson curves indicate hearing to be most sensitive at is 1-6kHz:
http://www.gfbeats.com/gfblog/9-gfblog/22-fletcher-munson-curves
Both key clicks fall well within that range, and in that range the higher pitches at the same dB are perceived as louder.
Yes, they're both audible within that range, however if you examine the spectrum analysis below you'll see that Buckling Springs have more overall peak energy within the 1-6kHz range while the Cherry Blues have more overall peak energy in the 6-16kHz range. Hence, according to Fletcher-Munson, Buckling Springs will be perceived as louder.
Nice data. However, I still disagree, based on my own ears.
-
Granted, my ears are probably not typical, I've been recording and mixing audio for way too many years, and have trained my ears to hear things in a particular way toward that purpose.
-
I've been recording and mixing audio for way too many years, and have trained my ears to hear things in a particular way toward that purpose.
That makes two of us, and of course you're free to disagree. However, I don't know any audio engineers who would argue with Fletcher Munson.
-
I've been recording and mixing audio for way too many years, and have trained my ears to hear things in a particular way toward that purpose.
That makes two of us, and of course you're free to disagree. However, I don't know any audio engineers who would argue with Fletcher Munson.
daerid has messed up ears.. he's not arguing with munson.. he's saying he's got a disability.. :D
-
I've been recording and mixing audio for way too many years, and have trained my ears to hear things in a particular way toward that purpose.
That makes two of us, and of course you're free to disagree. However, I don't know any audio engineers who would argue with Fletcher Munson.
daerid has messed up ears.. he's not arguing with munson.. he's saying he's got a disability.. :D
:)
But seriously, while he may perceive Blues as louder, the point is most people don't, or at least it stands to reason.
-
The floss mod has the potential to change the feel of the key press, depending on the amount of floss used, at least based on my experience.
Indeed...getting the length right is a delicate balance between suppressing the reverberation and adding too much weight to the key. I like the grease mod for that reason, but it is also quite tricky to do right and much more difficult to reverse. My M's at work are grease modded. I do like the floss mod on my Model F's.
-
I've been recording and mixing audio for way too many years, and have trained my ears to hear things in a particular way toward that purpose.
That makes two of us, and of course you're free to disagree. However, I don't know any audio engineers who would argue with Fletcher Munson.
I'm not disagreeing with Fletcher/Munson, actually. I'm just stating that to my ears the blues sound a bit more distinct.
Aaaaaand tp goes personal. Was wondering when that would happen.
-
Isn't this all subjective?
I personally hate the sound of buckling spring when I am not the one typing. I had a roommate who was a hardcore Model M fanboy and used it all the time. I wanted to kill him after 5 minutes of CLACK CLACK CLACK. Just from experience I think BS is louder. I could be totally wrong on this though.
-
Isn't this all subjective?
Objective data suggests Buckling Springs are louder, although some individuals may be more sensitive to certain frequencies than others.