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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: emusan on Fri, 22 March 2013, 19:50:06
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I need a new keyboard for work, and while I love my Das Keyboard to death, it is unfortunately not really portable enough as I have to bring my keyboard back and forth each day.
Ideally I would like to get a 60% keyboard, as they seem the best suited to my needs (heavy keyboard user but I've gotten pretty used to using the number row and use hjkl for movement).
Any input on the matter would be greatly appreciated! :D
So far I've got things narrowed down to:
Poker (#1 option):
+ best layout(imo)
+ can customize easier
- impossible to find :(
HHKB (#2):
+ very well built (from what I've heard)
+ great switches (again from what I've heard)
- more expensive than I could easily justify (only if it truly were my *perfect* keyboard)
- Not sure if I would like TOPRE (I'm a huge blue fan, just got a few switches off WASD to try and imo none of them come close, would TOPRE be a bad choice for someone like me?)
+/- I've heard if you buy these and end up not liking them you can usually sell them for about what you paid, is this still true?
Pure(#3):
+ can actually get it, and doesn't cost absurd amounts of cash
- worst layout of the 3 (I don't need escape, but use ~ a lot, that location is horrid, and yes I know I can switch it in software, but that is quite a pain especially when having to maintain it across multiple PC's as this is going to be a portable keyboard for me)
-/+ useless backlighting (I never look at my keys, and the cool factor isn't much for me)
- harder to customize the keycaps (again thanks to worst layout, though still worlds better than the race)
And before anyone yells out GH60, yes I'm aware of it and will be purchasing one, but don't realy want to wait 4-ish months, the keyboard I'm using at work now is a mushy mess and I can't take it any more.
I guess my biggest question here is whether an MX-blue fan could like the TOPRE switches, or if it's very uncommon.
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I can't answer your last question, but I would wait for a Poker to show up in the F/S section :)
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How about the Noppoo Choc Mini?
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How about the Noppoo Choc Mini?
That, like the KBT Race, is just way more keys than I'd ever need, and just looks a bit cluttered to me, I realize that that isn't a great reason to avoid a keyboard style, but in these price ranges I really don't want to spend money on something less than ideal for my uses. I will keep it in mind though :) (the price makes it pretty appealing, less worried about the "perfect" layout at that price range >.>)
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Ah, I see. Also, mechanicalkeyboards.com is going to have the new Tex 60% boards soon too. You should check those out too.
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I can't answer your last question, but I would wait for a Poker to show up in the F/S section :)
heh, I have been looking a lot lately, unfortunately only one has gone up for trade in the past week, and they wont sell it yet.
I've also been considering buying a pcb and case (already got a plate) and some switches/caps and building my own, but that gets pretty expensive...
@deazncy, yeah, thinking about that, but that will be coming around the same time as the GH-60, and I'm probably going to be able to customize my GH-60 more (I'm an EE and planning on running my own GH-60 PCB with some customizations, open source for the win!!)
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Oh, yes, how could I have forgotten about the gh60... that will honestly be everything you'd ever want.
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Oh, yes, how could I have forgotten about the gh60... that will honestly be everything you'd ever want.
lol I'm quite aware, I plan on getting a pcb fabbed soon, once all the bugs are worked out (assuming there are any left, I haven't kept up with it too much), but like I said in the OP I need the keyboard relatively soon, don't want to have to wait a few months for the pcb then weeks-months to solder it all.
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The GH60 group buy is on, so expect to see more pokers show up in classifieds over the next few weeks.
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The GH60 group buy is on, so expect to see more pokers show up in classifieds over the next few weeks.
I do hope so, as I said the pure really isn't what I'm looking for, but if I can't get something soon I'll have to settle for it, but really wondering if it would be worth my while to just go with the HHKB, just not sure if I can justify that price >.<
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I've gotten pretty used to using the number row and use hjkl for movement).
- Not sure if I would like TOPRE (I'm a huge blue fan, just got a few switches off WASD to try and imo none of them come close, would TOPRE be a bad choice for someone like me?)
I'm also a huge MX-Blue fan (and a fellow vi-user). I can't speak to the Poker or Pure; like you, I'd love to try a Poker, but haven't been able to find one to try. And the Pure just has too many keys for my liking. But I switched from a Das with blues to HHKB, so I can give some comments on that. For the sake of comparison, I'll also mention that I really dislike MX-Browns; they just don't have the tactility that I like. I haven't tried other types of Cherry switches, so can't compare.
After a couple days of settling into them, the Topres became my favourite switch. For the first few days, I couldn't feel much of a difference between a Topre and a well-constructed rubber-dome-over-membrane keyboard, like my original Microsoft Natural keyboard. Now I can easily fell the difference, and wonder how I ever missed it before. But I did. If you do try Topres, my advice is to give them a try for a week or two before making up your mind; you almost certainly will be extremely underwhelmed about the feel of the switches for the first few days. (the PBT keycaps are lovely things, though; by far the nicest keycaps I've ever typed on. But PBT replacement caps are available for other keyboards as well. If whatever keyboard you wind up with comes with regular ABS keycaps, I highly recommend finding nice replacement PBT ones.)
The difference between Topre switches and regular rubber dome switches is subtle -- there's no question of that. Maybe too subtle for the price premium on Topre keyboards. (And lots of people won't like the rubber-dome-like key feel anyway, even if they *do* feel the difference).
For me, the real problem with switching to the HHKB is that its layout is notably different from regular keyboards. The biggest issues for me were the movement of ~ from the left to the right side of the keyboard and the swapping of \ and delete. Now whenever I use someone else's keyboard, I often end up inserting long sequences of \'s instead of backspacing over things I've typed. As a vim user, I have \ mapped as my <mapleader>, and so its HHKB position is now in my muscle memory, causing even worse problems for me even using vim on someone else's keyboard.
So for me, it was a question of "do I go for HHKB for everything forever, or do I stick with a normal layout, because I can't do both." Personally, I've drunk the Kool-Aid and gone completely HHKB -- I *really like* the layout. I carted my HHKB back and forth between work and home for almost a year before splurging and buying a second one that I could leave at work, just so that I could stop transporting it. That'll sound absurd to a lot of folks, I'm sure (probably rightly so). But for me, once I decided to accept the layout, there really isn't another keyboard I can use productively, and I was tired of plugging and unplugging it from my work and home computers.
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I can't answer your last question, but I would wait for a Poker to show up in the F/S section :)
Yep, I agree with this. If you can't wait for the GH60, this is your best bet. :)
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Wow! Thanks for the awesome post! Great to hear from another vim-user and blue lover! (I despise browns as well, the "tactile" click to me honestly feels more like it is not clean inside and sticking against some dirt).
I think you may have sold me on HHKB, though I'll wait a day or so on the purchase just to make sure. Would you recommend the case on elitekeyboards for transport? Or something else?
And just out of curiosity(and a bit off topic) since we seem to have a bit in common, do you use Linux? If so what distro?
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Would you recommend the case on elitekeyboards for transport? Or something else?
I bought it and it's what I still use to transport the HHKB. On the plus side, it protects the keyboard nicely, and has a side-pocket which can hold a USB cable, nicely separated from the keyboard so that neither can damage the other.
On the down side, that side pocket isn't going to hold much else; it's just an awkward size. My Kindle, for example, won't quite fit into it. You could put a phone, or a thin wallet in there.. but not much else. The case eventually starts to feel like you're carrying a "man-purse" around (or at least, it started to feel that way for me). I eventually wound up putting the keyboard into the case, and the case into a backpack, and then carrying the whole backpack around, instead of just taking the case. At which point, maybe a simple sleeve would work just as well (and would probably be much cheaper). I'd probably investigate that possibility, if I had it to do over again now.
And just out of curiosity(and a bit off topic) since we seem to have a bit in common, do you use Linux? If so what distro?
I switched from a Debian distribution to OSX about eight years ago, when I had to replace my dying laptop and couldn't face doing another Linux laptop install. (I understand that installing Linux onto a laptop isn't nearly as painful now as it was back then) But still often run Linux VMs, where I'm currently using Ubuntu 12, which is nicely similar to the Debian distribution that I'm used to.
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I bought it and it's what I still use to transport the HHKB. On the plus side, it protects the keyboard nicely, and has a side-pocket which can hold a USB cable, nicely separated from the keyboard so that neither can damage the other.
On the down side, that side pocket isn't going to hold much else; it's just an awkward size. My Kindle, for example, won't quite fit into it. You could put a phone, or a thin wallet in there.. but not much else. The case eventually starts to feel like you're carrying a "man-purse" around (or at least, it started to feel that way for me). I eventually wound up putting the keyboard into the case, and the case into a backpack, and then carrying the whole backpack around, instead of just taking the case. At which point, maybe a simple sleeve would work just as well (and would probably be much cheaper). I'd probably investigate that possibility, if I had it to do over again now.
Ah, I think I'll probably go with the case just because of the ability to carry it on its own, though I almost always have a backpack with me (currently in college).
I switched from a Debian distribution to OSX about eight years ago, when I had to replace my dying laptop and couldn't face doing another Linux laptop install. (I understand that installing Linux onto a laptop isn't nearly as painful now as it was back then) But still often run Linux VMs, where I'm currently using Ubuntu 12, which is nicely similar to the Debian distribution that I'm used to.
It's really not too bad these days (though I haven't gotten around to optimizing it for battery life yet, as that can be quite the pain, but I get as much battery life from my Linux setup as I did on Windows, so not too important to me). I used Debian for awhile but recently switched to Arch and haven't looked back since, it was not the quickest to set up but now that it's running I can't think of using anything else.
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I chose HHKB for the key switches. I also like the feel of MX blues, but couldn't stand the noise. Browns are my favorite Cherry switch. Don't care for any of the Cherry linear switches.
Unless there's something glaringly retarded in the layout, it's somewhat secondary in the decision process, because whichever compact board you choose, you'll adjust to the layout anyway. There are things I would change in the HHKB layout (a left Fn key AND Win key for example), but the minor issues are nothing I haven't been able to adjust to very easily.
One reason to consider the HHKB is that if you don't like it, selling it will be easy and you'll recover most of your money. Personally, I've never used a Poker, but everybody seems to have great things to say about them.
One not on your list that is definitely considering is the Majestouch MINILA:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320
And you will be able to get this board with blues. I'm not sure when / if they'll be available in the US, but you could always check keyboardco.com in the UK. I seem to recall seeing it for sale there. I definitely like the layout.
Choose your switch type first. It will make your final choice easier.
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I am not a hardcore typist, just a generalist. I would get the Poker, but like you mentioned, they are hard to find.
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I chose HHKB for the key switches. I also like the feel of MX blues, but couldn't stand the noise. Browns are my favorite Cherry switch. Don't care for any of the Cherry linear switches.
Unless there's something glaringly retarded in the layout, it's somewhat secondary in the decision process, because whichever compact board you choose, you'll adjust to the layout anyway. There are things I would change in the HHKB layout (a left Fn key AND Win key for example), but the minor issues are nothing I haven't been able to adjust to very easily.
One reason to consider the HHKB is that if you don't like it, selling it will be easy and you'll recover most of your money. Personally, I've never used a Poker, but everybody seems to have great things to say about them.
One not on your list that is definitely considering is the Majestouch MINILA:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320
And you will be able to get this board with blues. I'm not sure when / if they'll be available in the US, but you could always check keyboardco.com in the UK. I seem to recall seeing it for sale there. I definitely like the layout.
Choose your switch type first. It will make your final choice easier.
The only thing I don't like about the Minila is the small backspace. I've owned keyboards with small backspaces and I find them too annoying.
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I chose HHKB for the key switches. I also like the feel of MX blues, but couldn't stand the noise. Browns are my favorite Cherry switch. Don't care for any of the Cherry linear switches.
Ah, I rather enjoy the sound of the blues, though it's not necessary, I was hoping that the "thock" that people mention would make up for that somewhat though, is that present on the HHKB?
Unless there's something glaringly retarded in the layout, it's somewhat secondary in the decision process, because whichever compact board you choose, you'll adjust to the layout anyway. There are things I would change in the HHKB layout (a left Fn key AND Win key for example), but the minor issues are nothing I haven't been able to adjust to very easily.
I'm quite aware of this, I have a few software switches right now, but it is quite annoying maintaining them all between computers (the main one is the caps->control/escape which I require now), but needing more for a specific keyboard would be a bit more than I'd like right now, unless necessary). I realize it's not the biggest problem, but it is somewhat important to me.
One reason to consider the HHKB is that if you don't like it, selling it will be easy and you'll recover most of your money. Personally, I've never used a Poker, but everybody seems to have great things to say about them.
I had heard this before but wasn't sure if it was still possible, thanks for confirming!
One not on your list that is definitely considering is the Majestouch MINILA:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320
And you will be able to get this board with blues. I'm not sure when / if they'll be available in the US, but you could always check keyboardco.com in the UK. I seem to recall seeing it for sale there. I definitely like the layout.
Choose your switch type first. It will make your final choice easier.
I've seen the MINILA a bit, though if I wanted that many keys I'd go with a Race I think, and that spacebar is a huge negative for me (I know you can make the Fn keys work as space as well, but it's really not the same imo).
And I'm quite set on Blue switches when it comes to Cherry, but thinking of trying TOPRE, just was unsure if it was worth the effort/cost to get one (if other mx-blue lovers didn't like them there would be no point in considering it, I had thought perhaps they appealed to linear switch types).
Thanks for your help though! :)
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The only thing I don't like about the Minila is the small backspace. I've owned keyboard with small backspaces and I find them too annoying.
oh yeah, actually missed that before, that would really make the keyboard almost unusable to me...
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Ah, I rather enjoy the sound of the blues, though it's not necessary, I was hoping that the "thock" that people mention would make up for that somewhat though, is that present on the HHKB?
Oh yeah the hhkb definitely has a very pronounced "thock"
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWPH7FAUfUY) does a good job in capturing that.
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Oh yeah the hhkb definitely has a very pronounced "thock"
This video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWPH7FAUfUY) does a good job in capturing that.
So it does! I think I'm pretty much sold by all you HHKB guys, I have a feeling my wallet is going to be a *lot* lighter soon lol
EDIT: If you don't mind my asking I saw you sold your HHKB recently, do you mind if I ask how much you ended up getting for it? Just in case I don't end up liking mine and have to sell...
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Not sure about you, but for me. I have ditched my other keyboards ever since I got my hands on my HHKB. Its delighted to type on. The sound, the activation force needed, and the layout of it. However, it does take some time to get used to on the layout. But it took me roughly a week or so, and I couldn't get back to normal layouts.
And also, you may want to consider the GH60. Its a fully programmable 60% keyboard. I ordered one myself and see if I can make myself ditch the hhkb. But I highly doubt it. lol
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EDIT: If you don't mind my asking I saw you sold your HHKB recently, do you mind if I ask how much you ended up getting for it? Just in case I don't end up liking mine and have to sell...
Replied to your pm.
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I've seen the MINILA a bit, though if I wanted that many keys I'd go with a Race I think, and that spacebar is a huge negative for me (I know you can make the Fn keys work as space as well, but it's really not the same imo).
And I'm quite set on Blue switches when it comes to Cherry, but thinking of trying TOPRE, just was unsure if it was worth the effort/cost to get one (if other mx-blue lovers didn't like them there would be no point in considering it, I had thought perhaps they appealed to linear switch types).
Thanks for your help though! :)
I'm not sure why the spacebar should be a negative...it only is when they place it in a funny position but a normal touch typing position puts it fine..
MY issue w/ the MINILA is the bottom row is off..To me that is the biggest reason to stay away from it and say, the Tex (Beetle)...
Add a column to the right of the keyboard if you want dedicated arrow keys..but don't mess with the standard layout....
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GH60 if you can wait
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I'm not sure why the spacebar should be a negative...it only is when they place it in a funny position but a normal touch typing position puts it fine..
MY issue w/ the MINILA is the bottom row is off..To me that is the biggest reason to stay away from it and say, the Tex (Beetle)...
Add a column to the right of the keyboard if you want dedicated arrow keys..but don't mess with the standard layout....
Well when I touch type I keep my left thumb closer to the left side of the spacebar (perhaps this is "improper" form, but it gets me 109+ wpm so I'm not changing any time soon), it's closer to the alt key then which I use extensively (I have a custom linux setup that is completely keyboard controlled, and alt is used primarily for managing windows, switching, etc.
I know there is an option to swap a function key with space, but I fear sometimes I would slide between the two and that it would not be a great typing experience (perhaps I'm being picky again, but given the other options I'd rather use them).
@The_Beast: I do plan on getting one, (likely with a customized pcb), but that's still a bit further away than I'd like for now.
I ended up ordering a HHKB Pro 2 last night (convinced by some awesome people in this thread), hopefully the switches will be to my liking, though from what I've heard I'd be surprised if they weren't.
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The only thing I don't like about the Minila is the small backspace. I've owned keyboards with small backspaces and I find them too annoying.
Good point. In fact, I've set my HHKB so the Backspace is right above Enter. I love it there, and would like to remap my other boards to this configuration.
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The only thing I don't like about the Minila is the small backspace. I've owned keyboards with small backspaces and I find them too annoying.
Good point. In fact, I've set my HHKB so the Backspace is right above Enter. I love it there, and would like to remap my other boards to this configuration.
If I like my HHKB enough I might work on a software fix to do that automatically, probably will be Linux only though (as every OS handles this stuff differently iirc).
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If I like my HHKB enough I might work on a software fix to do that automatically, probably will be Linux only though (as every OS handles this stuff differently iirc).
No need, DIP switch 3 will do that for you.
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-/+ useless backlighting (I never look at my keys, and the cool factor isn't much for me)
There are versions without backlight (and I wish I bought some of those).
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Poker has the most customization i believe. i got one so i could try out clears and get keycap sets to go with my keyboards.
my Pure might be my favorite. while i don't think backlighting looks great, it does help at night for the fn layout (which is much better then the poker). i turn off backlighting during the day, and it still looks great. when i have arrow mode on for both the poker and the pure, (which i have on constantly), i prefer the pure because of the smaller shift. might make it hard to get keycap sets though :)
the hhkb has the best layout imo, and while i dont have one, it will probably be my gh60 layout. i don't think i would like topres either, so the board itself doesn't work out great for me.
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The keyboard you linked is interesting, but what may prevent me to consider is the short length of its space bar and the small backspace.
I chose HHKB for the key switches. I also like the feel of MX blues, but couldn't stand the noise. Browns are my favorite Cherry switch. Don't care for any of the Cherry linear switches.
Unless there's something glaringly retarded in the layout, it's somewhat secondary in the decision process, because whichever compact board you choose, you'll adjust to the layout anyway. There are things I would change in the HHKB layout (a left Fn key AND Win key for example), but the minor issues are nothing I haven't been able to adjust to very easily.
One reason to consider the HHKB is that if you don't like it, selling it will be easy and you'll recover most of your money. Personally, I've never used a Poker, but everybody seems to have great things to say about them.
One not on your list that is definitely considering is the Majestouch MINILA:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320 (http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320)
And you will be able to get this board with blues. I'm not sure when / if they'll be available in the US, but you could always check keyboardco.com in the UK. I seem to recall seeing it for sale there. I definitely like the layout.
Choose your switch type first. It will make your final choice easier.
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I kind of like the idea of the smaller Spacebar. Takes up too much real estate on a compact layout anyway. It looks wide enough for both thumbs, and since I use thumbs for Alt, it would make it so I don't have to reach under the palms of my hands to reach it. And honestly, I question the value of a full sized Spacebar on any modern full-sized keyboard.
However, as others have pointed out, the Backspace is too small. For anybody doing much typing, that's an important key. But it's like they tossed it in as an afterthought. That alone is a deal breaker for me.
I love the location on my HHKB. Right above Enter. Now, if the HHKB had a smaller spacebar and added a Fn key on the left, I'm thinking it would be just about perfect.
The keyboard you linked is interesting, but what may prevent me to consider is the short length of its space bar and the small backspace.
I chose HHKB for the key switches. I also like the feel of MX blues, but couldn't stand the noise. Browns are my favorite Cherry switch. Don't care for any of the Cherry linear switches.
Unless there's something glaringly retarded in the layout, it's somewhat secondary in the decision process, because whichever compact board you choose, you'll adjust to the layout anyway. There are things I would change in the HHKB layout (a left Fn key AND Win key for example), but the minor issues are nothing I haven't been able to adjust to very easily.
One reason to consider the HHKB is that if you don't like it, selling it will be easy and you'll recover most of your money. Personally, I've never used a Poker, but everybody seems to have great things to say about them.
One not on your list that is definitely considering is the Majestouch MINILA:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320 (http://www.diatec.co.jp/en/det.php?prod_c=1320)
And you will be able to get this board with blues. I'm not sure when / if they'll be available in the US, but you could always check keyboardco.com in the UK. I seem to recall seeing it for sale there. I definitely like the layout.
Choose your switch type first. It will make your final choice easier.
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I kind of like the idea of the smaller Spacebar. Takes up too much real estate on a compact layout anyway. It looks wide enough for both thumbs, and since I use thumbs for Alt, it would make it so I don't have to reach under the palms of my hands to reach it. And honestly, I question the value of a full sized Spacebar on any modern full-sized keyboard.
Yes, but for me I keep my thumb far to the left of the spacebar, which would be over the Left Fn on that board, so wouldn't work out well... (for me anyway, I'm sure it's a nice board for some)
I love the location on my HHKB. Right above Enter. Now, if the HHKB had a smaller spacebar and added a Fn key on the left, I'm thinking it would be just about perfect.
if you don't use the windows key much this is possible through the DIP switches iirc :3
No need, DIP switch 3 will do that for you.
No, I mean to add a similar function layer to all keyboards(along with a few remappings), not just the hhkb, would make using other keyboards a bit easier for when my hhkb is not in reach (again assuming I like it and get used to the layout) :D.