There's the IME 3.0, one of the best mouse ever made, but it has old engine.. I use sensei for everything, I just bought da 2013 too, but its too light for me, so I went back to sensei
There's the IME 3.0, one of the best mouse ever made, but it has old engine.. I use sensei for everything, I just bought da 2013 too, but its too light for me, so I went back to sensei
Funny I just asked a friend about this.
IO1.1 is also pretty popular with some of the old-school CS players.
Razer Deathadder, SS Sensei, or one of Zowie variants.
Deathadder has the best tracking ability imo. Sensei and Zowie feel great to hold.
We see this in a lot of Steelseries mice. Pro teams like Fnatic, SK, NIP etc. use a lot of them. Example : http://www.nip-gaming.se/the-team/ The Xai, kana and ikari optical seem popular in the pro circuit. Even the sensei with its Avago 9500 laser sensor seems to be used.
We see this in a lot of Steelseries mice. Pro teams like Fnatic, SK, NIP etc. use a lot of them. Example : http://www.nip-gaming.se/the-team/ The Xai, kana and ikari optical seem popular in the pro circuit. Even the sensei with its Avago 9500 laser sensor seems to be used.
At least in Sensei I'm pretty sure you can disable or counter the 5% acceleration inherent to the sensor
Well of course they'll use Those mice, they get paid to use them. Besides when you get good enought at a game you can pretty much use any gear and still play at your best.
Be careful with Synapse dpi, optical sensors usually only have a few dpi steps, setting the dpi in Synapse to anything other than those steps will interpolate the dpi and sensitivity settings to resemble the dpi you want. I'm not sure what this means for precision as I haven't tested it, but just something to keep in mind in case you're not getting the precision you want.
If you find that you can not find a in between because it only allows steps of 100 dpi at a time then set your dpi to the lower value and fine tune your ingame sens to compensate.
I'll use my DA 3.5G as an example here; I believe the sensor has dpi steps of 450, 900, 1800 and 3500 if memory serves me right, most optical sensors will have steps like that, yet Synapse does 100 steps, as you said. However, it doesn't set dpi; if you choose 900 with the DA 3.5G it sets it to 900dpi, but if you set it to something like 1200 it will most likely set dpi to 900 or 1800 and then adjust driver sensitivity to emulate 1200 dpi.
Now, in practice this will probably not make any noticeable difference, but I can't say for sure as I haven't looked into it much nor done much testing on my own, but it could possibly adversely affect precision in a similar manner to how windows sensitivity settings other than 6/11 does.
But like I said, I don't know too much about it and there is no real evidence saying that it's bad, but just keep that in mind.
Edit;
Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but from what I've gathered you'll need a laser sensor if you want to adjust dpi in increments of 100, so far I haven't seen any optical sensors that can be adjusted in 100 dpi steps.
Sensei tracking is a deathtrap. I know of multiple pro gamers that curse it but still use it due to sponsor-ship.
Personally, I really like the G700.G700 has a laser sensor, so there will always be a small amount of hardware acceleration.
I can't do wired.
The cords simply don't last and I always feel as though I'm fighting them. And yes, you can disable acceleration.
G700 has a laser sensor, so there will always be a small amount of hardware acceleration.A lot of that whole argument is personal preference and arguments about older designs, most of which were terrible.
Although with the G700 it doesn't matter at all, since if you needed so much control over your mouse that the laser accel is a problem then you wouldn't go wireless.
I'm not going to tell you what's best for you, you already know that, I'm just making sure all the facts are straight.G700 has a laser sensor, so there will always be a small amount of hardware acceleration.A lot of that whole argument is personal preference and arguments about older designs, most of which were terrible.
Although with the G700 it doesn't matter at all, since if you needed so much control over your mouse that the laser accel is a problem then you wouldn't go wireless.
Some people actually prefer at least some acceleration and I would bet 99.9999% of people would never even notice laser acceleration in a game. A lot comes down to adjusting. As for the wireless lag, again, older argument and at this point wireless is good enough to where you could make just as compelling an argument about how much dragging the cord around effects your game (which was my problem and why I went wireless).
Yes, gaming on an older wireless and laser was bad. The first one that I thought could game even remotely decent on FPS was the Logitech Revolution (though I could still occasional detect lag and could still be twitchy on occasion). And while I admit, even on newer systems that lasers can be fickle regarding some mousepads (use fine cloth or hard, preferably the latter), most of the arguments against newer lasers and wireless are outdated and only matter on a benchmark.
Say what you want, but in games that show accuracy, I'm usually at the top.
Could I be better on a wired optical, it's possible, but if it's only going to net me one extra kill per 1000, I'll take wireless every time.
I'm not going to tell you what's best for you, you already know that, I'm just making sure all the facts are straight.All good points as well.
You said that it's possible to disable acceleration on the G700, I'm merely saying that it will have some due to the sensor, that's all.
Personally I'm with you on the rest of what you said, although I do prefer wired over wireless as I like not having to worry about batteries, both the weight and charge.
Other than that I don't believe that the insignificant amounts of laser sensor accel or the possible wireless lag in something like the G700 will matter at all for the vast majority of gamers.
I like the crispness of the buttons on my g9x, however ergonomics wise I like the CM Xornet. It's one of those "everybodys different" things.
this discussion is just like "what is the best gaming keyboard?"
it is subjective to the individual and the type of games they play.
lots of people bash on the steel series sensei. that is what I use and prefer. it is all preference.
I never fully realized just how much i loved my mx518 (which i used exclusively for several years), until i got my g700.
I do like the way the g700 feels in my hand, i do like the /option/ of extra buttons, i do like the scroll wheel... but the weight and its distribution are quite different, and the sensor is at the tip, rather than the middle, so it's an entirely different experience. I was all-tip, all the time, with the mx518, and the g700 has forced me to develop a sort of tip/claw hybrid. I just can't quite get completely comfortable with it, but i do think it's "a very good mouse." It's too bad my old mx518 is nastified and worn out. I suppose i could get a g500, or try a naga (because a thumb numberpad seems ideal, to me, and i dislike the design of the g600), but... meh. Whatever. I'm not a pro-gamer, so it doesn't matter that much. I also get irritated with my wrist-anchor spot getting grungy, and dust that settles on the giant goliathus mat, and the mouse feet start feeling sticky. The rubberized grip on the g700 gets icky for no apparent reason. I even washed it not long ago, and maintained my strict habit of always washing my hands before touching my peripherals, and it became sticky again almost immediately.
If not for the non-adjustable rotation speed in some games, i'd probably just use a 360 controller for everything (except typing, of course). I know xpadder can do mouse-mimic, and you can certainly control the speed there, and i'm sure you could map a mod-key to enable/disable max/min mouse-mimic-speed. In theory, you could simulate maximum "controlled" mouse movement speed. Not sure about snapping. Might just have to learn some creative combo-strafing or something, or take it as a handicap worth the comfort of a controller, versus required m/k posture.
The "best mouse" is probably almost always "whatever you feel most comfortable and accurate, while using."
I never fully realized just how much i loved my mx518 (which i used exclusively for several years), until i got my g700.
I do like the way the g700 feels in my hand, i do like the /option/ of extra buttons, i do like the scroll wheel... but the weight and its distribution are quite different, and the sensor is at the tip, rather than the middle, so it's an entirely different experience. I was all-tip, all the time, with the mx518, and the g700 has forced me to develop a sort of tip/claw hybrid. I just can't quite get completely comfortable with it, but i do think it's "a very good mouse." It's too bad my old mx518 is nastified and worn out. I suppose i could get a g500, or try a naga (because a thumb numberpad seems ideal, to me, and i dislike the design of the g600), but... meh. Whatever. I'm not a pro-gamer, so it doesn't matter that much. I also get irritated with my wrist-anchor spot getting grungy, and dust that settles on the giant goliathus mat, and the mouse feet start feeling sticky. The rubberized grip on the g700 gets icky for no apparent reason. I even washed it not long ago, and maintained my strict habit of always washing my hands before touching my peripherals, and it became sticky again almost immediately.
If not for the non-adjustable rotation speed in some games, i'd probably just use a 360 controller for everything (except typing, of course). I know xpadder can do mouse-mimic, and you can certainly control the speed there, and i'm sure you could map a mod-key to enable/disable max/min mouse-mimic-speed. In theory, you could simulate maximum "controlled" mouse movement speed. Not sure about snapping. Might just have to learn some creative combo-strafing or something, or take it as a handicap worth the comfort of a controller, versus required m/k posture.
The "best mouse" is probably almost always "whatever you feel most comfortable and accurate, while using."
The one thing i didn't like about the mx518 is that it felt "too long," even though the g700 manages to feel uncomfortable in a similar way, despite it's "shorter" design. If only there were some sort of tiny tip-grip mouse, with a thumb numberpad and a nice scroll wheel like the g700. :P
I haven't held a g600, but it seems like it would be too wide, and it "looks heavy," but i haven't looked at the specs to compare weight.
I've actually been considering converting to trackball, lately. Or maybe just mapping all relevant mouse functions to a 360 pad...
The one thing i didn't like about the mx518 is that it felt "too long," even though the g700 manages to feel uncomfortable in a similar way, despite it's "shorter" design. If only there were some sort of tiny tip-grip mouse, with a thumb numberpad and a nice scroll wheel like the g700. :P
I haven't held a g600, but it seems like it would be too wide, and it "looks heavy," but i haven't looked at the specs to compare weight.
I've actually been considering converting to trackball, lately. Or maybe just mapping all relevant mouse functions to a 360 pad...
The one thing i didn't like about the mx518 is that it felt "too long," even though the g700 manages to feel uncomfortable in a similar way, despite it's "shorter" design. If only there were some sort of tiny tip-grip mouse, with a thumb numberpad and a nice scroll wheel like the g700. :P
I haven't held a g600, but it seems like it would be too wide, and it "looks heavy," but i haven't looked at the specs to compare weight.
I've actually been considering converting to trackball, lately. Or maybe just mapping all relevant mouse functions to a 360 pad...
If you're looking for a "tiny tip-grip mouse, with a thumb numberpad and a nice scroll wheel like the g700", then the Naga should be perfect for you. Though I've never compared it to a G600, and so vun's comments about the Naga having horrible software may be true, in terms of grip, the Naga allows a pretty good claw/tip-grip. I was kind of surprised by it (in a good way), actually. It doesn't have the scroll wheel of a G700 either, but, we can't have everything. =P
G9x or Zowei FK for FPS.
There is no way to disable the acceleration in laser sensors as it is a limitation of the current technology used in those sensors, and from the graphs I've seen the accel is fairly inconsistent so even if there was a software setting to counteract it I doubt it would be reliable.
But there is no such setting in the SteelSeries Engine software.
There is no way to disable the acceleration in laser sensors as it is a limitation of the current technology used in those sensors, and from the graphs I've seen the accel is fairly inconsistent so even if there was a software setting to counteract it I doubt it would be reliable.
But there is no such setting in the SteelSeries Engine software.
People give me **** for mentioning this, but screw it. Don't care.
Laser and Optical are one in the same. Optical LED and Optical Laser (VCSEL) The most common designs share basic frame capture CMOS tech. Philips Twin Eye is quite unique as it makes use of 2 beams to detect motion via doppler for sensing.
The whole laser mice = acceleration is derived from the Avago 9500/9800 sensor architecture. Any alternative solution that has been released functions as linearly as what many consider the best optical LED mice. Cypress ONS I.. Agilent/Avago 60XX.. to name a couple.
Philips Twin Eye, the competitor to Avago 9500/9800 is inherently "acceleration free" **.
** Technically, no mouse is really free from acceleration when tested via machine.
There is no way to disable the acceleration in laser sensors as it is a limitation of the current technology used in those sensors, and from the graphs I've seen the accel is fairly inconsistent so even if there was a software setting to counteract it I doubt it would be reliable.
But there is no such setting in the SteelSeries Engine software.
People give me **** for mentioning this, but screw it. Don't care.
Laser and Optical are one in the same. Optical LED and Optical Laser (VCSEL) The most common designs share basic frame capture CMOS tech. Philips Twin Eye is quite unique as it makes use of 2 beams to detect motion via doppler for sensing.
The whole laser mice = acceleration is derived from the Avago 9500/9800 sensor architecture. Any alternative solution that has been released functions as linearly as what many consider the best optical LED mice. Cypress ONS I.. Agilent/Avago 60XX.. to name a couple.
Philips Twin Eye, the competitor to Avago 9500/9800 is inherently "acceleration free" **.
** Technically, no mouse is really free from acceleration when tested via machine.
There is no way to disable the acceleration in laser sensors as it is a limitation of the current technology used in those sensors, and from the graphs I've seen the accel is fairly inconsistent so even if there was a software setting to counteract it I doubt it would be reliable.
But there is no such setting in the SteelSeries Engine software.
People give me **** for mentioning this, but screw it. Don't care.
Laser and Optical are one in the same. Optical LED and Optical Laser (VCSEL) The most common designs share basic frame capture CMOS tech. Philips Twin Eye is quite unique as it makes use of 2 beams to detect motion via doppler for sensing.
The whole laser mice = acceleration is derived from the Avago 9500/9800 sensor architecture. Any alternative solution that has been released functions as linearly as what many consider the best optical LED mice. Cypress ONS I.. Agilent/Avago 60XX.. to name a couple.
Philips Twin Eye, the competitor to Avago 9500/9800 is inherently "acceleration free" **.
** Technically, no mouse is really free from acceleration when tested via machine.
Thing is that nearly all laser mice use some variation of the 9500, 9800 or PTE, which might be accel free but flawed in other ways. Afaik all the mice using alternative laser sensors are old models that are no longer available.
But thanks for clearing it up, I wasn't really aware of the alternative laser sensors as I haven't delved that deep into it. I mostly concern myself with what something is, the basics of how it works and what it will mean to the end-user in practice rather than the finer details of how something works, so my knowledge is somewhat limited.
So what do you own and prefer?
personally vote for Razer DeathAdder 2013 :thumb:
i have owned this for 4 months and it is already double clicking. i will never buy another razer mouse ever.Changing switch with omron switch
i have owned this for 4 months and it is already double clicking. i will never buy another razer mouse ever.chaging switch with omron
i have owned this for 4 months and it is already double clicking. i will never buy another razer mouse ever.chaging switch with omron
huh? are you saying I should change the switches or razer already changed the switches? I have a support ticket I opened yesterday. if they decide to not help me (no rma) then I will dissect the mouse for mouse science and take pics.
edit: and yes I know I can open it up and use contact cleaner to fix it.
that is not the point. razer needs to fix this defect that has plagued all there mice for years.
For FPS gaming you generally want something smaller with fingertip/claw grip, easily liftable, and substantial dpi that perhaps has individual x and y axis settings.
Look at your grip on the mouse. This should be the biggest deciding factor into which one you go for.
Claw, fingertip or palm. If it's the latter find a mouse with a high back to support your wrist and be relatively wide. If the former then look at some of the Zowie's like the FK or the AM and the Steelseries range.
Optical is better for FPS games and I prefer the accurate tracking too.
Zowie FK user. No flashy lights, no over complicated buttons, no software. Perfect.
The best mouse for FPS games is the Microsoft Mouse.Show Image(http://timenerdworld.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/wpid-photo-aug-26-2012-349-pm.jpg?w=480&h=320&crop=1)
I can't do wired.
The cords simply don't last and I always feel as though I'm fighting them. And yes, you can disable acceleration.
First of all: I use the palm-grip.
After years of professional gaming with my Logitech MX518, this mouse finally gave up (it served me for 6 years).
Since then, due to not playing competitive anymore, I used a SteelSeries Kinzu until a month ago, which is a pretty cool mouse for casual gaming, but I felt the need for a bigger one again. After A LOT of research I decided to buy a ROCCAT KONE XTD that is honestly the best mouse I have ever had in my hands. The laser (the firmware is updated so there is no nasty delay!) is the most accurate one I have tried. For a lower budget you can get the ROCCAT KONE pure (without leds) but with the stabilized mousewheel. ROCCAT had problems with it before, but the new mice are just perfect :)
First of all: I use the palm-grip.
After years of professional gaming with my Logitech MX518, this mouse finally gave up (it served me for 6 years).
Since then, due to not playing competitive anymore, I used a SteelSeries Kinzu until a month ago, which is a pretty cool mouse for casual gaming, but I felt the need for a bigger one again. After A LOT of research I decided to buy a ROCCAT KONE XTD that is honestly the best mouse I have ever had in my hands. The laser (the firmware is updated so there is no nasty delay!) is the most accurate one I have tried. For a lower budget you can get the ROCCAT KONE pure (without leds) but with the stabilized mousewheel. ROCCAT had problems with it before, but the new mice are just perfect :)
I swear the XTD keeps coming up in my search for a replacement for my G5. I went to Fry's to try to check one out and... they had lots of other models but no XTD. The Kone + shape seemed like it would work out but as they weren't open I wasn't able to give one a fair test. I may have to find a Fry's that has the XTD in stock and try one out.
Otherwise I may just bit the bullet and try a G500s or possibly G400s.
First of all: I use the palm-grip.
After years of professional gaming with my Logitech MX518, this mouse finally gave up (it served me for 6 years).
Since then, due to not playing competitive anymore, I used a SteelSeries Kinzu until a month ago, which is a pretty cool mouse for casual gaming, but I felt the need for a bigger one again. After A LOT of research I decided to buy a ROCCAT KONE XTD that is honestly the best mouse I have ever had in my hands. The laser (the firmware is updated so there is no nasty delay!) is the most accurate one I have tried. For a lower budget you can get the ROCCAT KONE pure (without leds) but with the stabilized mousewheel. ROCCAT had problems with it before, but the new mice are just perfect :)
I swear the XTD keeps coming up in my search for a replacement for my G5. I went to Fry's to try to check one out and... they had lots of other models but no XTD. The Kone + shape seemed like it would work out but as they weren't open I wasn't able to give one a fair test. I may have to find a Fry's that has the XTD in stock and try one out.
Otherwise I may just bit the bullet and try a G500s or possibly G400s.
I was also in for a g400s, then read 'some' reviews (like 60 or so lol). Then I tried one and it was nothing like the mx518 (plus they didn't fix their cable issues), thats why I thought I should get a g500s. Apperently the laser of this mouse makes high-pitched squeeks from time to time that tend to get very loud after a year, having people returning the mouse because of that. So I guess LG is pretty much dead to me because of things like this. With the Roccat mice the only problem was the mousewheel, which got fixed with the new kone ed. (Just make sure to get one with the new "titan wheel") If you read rumors about a 'failing laser' or 'overreacting laser' that has also been fixed with the new firmware. :)
Best mouse I ever had. I will never go with another I guess!
Best mouse I have ever used.
I was also in for a g400s, then read 'some' reviews (like 60 or so lol). Then I tried one and it was nothing like the mx518 (plus they didn't fix their cable issues), thats why I thought I should get a g500s. Apperently the laser of this mouse makes high-pitched squeeks from time to time that tend to get very loud after a year, having people returning the mouse because of that.
Razer Deathadder, SS Sensei, or one of Zowie variants.
Deathadder has the best tracking ability imo. Sensei and Zowie feel great to hold.
First of all: I use the palm-grip.
After years of professional gaming with my Logitech MX518, this mouse finally gave up (it served me for 6 years).
Since then, due to not playing competitive anymore, I used a SteelSeries Kinzu until a month ago, which is a pretty cool mouse for casual gaming, but I felt the need for a bigger one again. After A LOT of research I decided to buy a ROCCAT KONE XTD that is honestly the best mouse I have ever had in my hands. The laser (the firmware is updated so there is no nasty delay!) is the most accurate one I have tried. For a lower budget you can get the ROCCAT KONE pure (without leds) but with the stabilized mousewheel. ROCCAT had problems with it before, but the new mice are just perfect :)
I swear the XTD keeps coming up in my search for a replacement for my G5. I went to Fry's to try to check one out and... they had lots of other models but no XTD. The Kone + shape seemed like it would work out but as they weren't open I wasn't able to give one a fair test. I may have to find a Fry's that has the XTD in stock and try one out.
Otherwise I may just bit the bullet and try a G500s or possibly G400s.
I was also in for a g400s, then read 'some' reviews (like 60 or so lol). Then I tried one and it was nothing like the mx518 (plus they didn't fix their cable issues), thats why I thought I should get a g500s. Apperently the laser of this mouse makes high-pitched squeeks from time to time that tend to get very loud after a year, having people returning the mouse because of that. So I guess LG is pretty much dead to me because of things like this. With the Roccat mice the only problem was the mousewheel, which got fixed with the new kone ed. (Just make sure to get one with the new "titan wheel") If you read rumors about a 'failing laser' or 'overreacting laser' that has also been fixed with the new firmware. :)
Best mouse I ever had. I will never go with another I guess!
Best mouse I have ever used.
Just curious; how is the G400 nothing like the MX518? It's the exact same shape, the earlier models even had sensors with prediction like on the MX518.
Damn, I nearly fell over laughin', a mouse that actually squeaks (I want one). A true 'living' rodent :thumb: .
deathadder ftw
Just curious; how is the G400 nothing like the MX518? It's the exact same shape, the earlier models even had sensors with prediction like on the MX518.
It just felt less 'worth the money', it's kind of hard to describe, let's take the mousewheel for expamle, it just felt not very reliable when scrolling. I'm not talking about the sensor, just the way the mouse feels in my hand.
You guys are probably talking about different mice. The G400 is not the G400s, they're two different products.
I'll always prefer a mouse that just mouses well. I hate gimmick features. If it were my choice, I'd have something just like the G400 except without a scroll wheel. I guess it's a minority opinion because I've never really heard anyone else complain about scroll wheels, but I think it's a ****ty, useless innovation. If we could go back to mice having a button in the center instead like they did back in the unix days, we'd be so much better off. I never really use my scroll wheel in games, but a central button is something I could use all the time.
Just curious; how is the G400 nothing like the MX518? It's the exact same shape, the earlier models even had sensors with prediction like on the MX518.
It just felt less 'worth the money', it's kind of hard to describe, let's take the mousewheel for expamle, it just felt not very reliable when scrolling. I'm not talking about the sensor, just the way the mouse feels in my hand.
You guys are probably talking about different mice. The G400 is not the G400s, they're two different products.
I'll always prefer a mouse that just mouses well. I hate gimmick features. If it were my choice, I'd have something just like the G400 except without a scroll wheel. I guess it's a minority opinion because I've never really heard anyone else complain about scroll wheels, but I think it's a ****ty, useless innovation. If we could go back to mice having a button in the center instead like they did back in the unix days, we'd be so much better off. I never really use my scroll wheel in games, but a central button is something I could use all the time.
Just curious; how is the G400 nothing like the MX518? It's the exact same shape, the earlier models even had sensors with prediction like on the MX518.
It just felt less 'worth the money', it's kind of hard to describe, let's take the mousewheel for expamle, it just felt not very reliable when scrolling. I'm not talking about the sensor, just the way the mouse feels in my hand.
You guys are probably talking about different mice. The G400 is not the G400s, they're two different products.
I'll always prefer a mouse that just mouses well. I hate gimmick features. If it were my choice, I'd have something just like the G400 except without a scroll wheel. I guess it's a minority opinion because I've never really heard anyone else complain about scroll wheels, but I think it's a ****ty, useless innovation. If we could go back to mice having a button in the center instead like they did back in the unix days, we'd be so much better off. I never really use my scroll wheel in games, but a central button is something I could use all the time.
Any mice out there the same shape as the G5 or its successors, or a bit wider?
If you want that shape I think you'll have to stick with Logitech, no other brand(that I am aware of) uses that shape or anything that feels much like it. The G500s is probably your best bet, but it's pretty much the same shape as the G5, although I think the thumb rest is a bit wider.
If you want that shape I think you'll have to stick with Logitech, no other brand(that I am aware of) uses that shape or anything that feels much like it. The G500s is probably your best bet, but it's pretty much the same shape as the G5, although I think the thumb rest is a bit wider.
The only non-Logitech mouse that's close to that shape is the Razer Imperator, which I believe was developed to be direct competition to the G400/G500 mice.
Get rid of that ergo 4k. That board gave me wrist problems like nobody's business.
MX518-G400-G400s i own and use all this mice!
MX518-G400-G400s i own and use all this mice!
Yep, the MX518, G400 and G500S are the ones in my possession and they are quality mice compared to anything made by Razer. Please avoid that company's horribly made components. There is a reason why their keyboards are ignored here on Geekhack and so should their current range of rodents, just not worth the money they're asking.
MX518-G400-G400s i own and use all this mice!
People seem to love their Deathadder?
People seem to love their Deathadder?
If they dropped the price to around $10.00 each, which is what it's really worth 8) .
My next rodent purchase shall be the Steelseries Ikari which looks good in images but need to actually have it in my hands to see if it's worth the price tag. Too many mice now are way over priced because of stupid coloured lights that turn on and off and look like cheap Las Vegas Slot Machines (and yes they do keep your money).