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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: humble on Thu, 28 March 2013, 12:57:31
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Hi Geekhack
I'm looking for the most comfortable keyboard that fits my needs for mostly longer periods of typing (word, excel etc.) but also gaming, eventhough the comfort of typing has the highest priority.
I've tried out quickfire rapid (red cherry), quickfire tk (blue cherry), logitech g710 (brown cherry) and CM Storm trigger (black cherry) without luck. Probably the red cherry suited me best for gaming while typing sadly became painful in the end.
Therefore, I've been looking at the Matias Quiet Pro as it seems to be built for both gaming and office.
Can anyone please give me an idea of how good Matias Quiet Pro is and if it suits for longer periods of typing?
If not, does anyone have another suggestion?
Regards
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If you tried all those different switches and are still getting pain, I dunno if going through even more will solve the problem. You might want to try looking at your typing style and maybe some ergonomic accessories like wrist rests.
But if you are going to keep buying keyboards, some people say they get fatigued on any keyboard that isn't a Topre, so maybe you would be more comfortable on the Topre boat.
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fyi, matias quiet pro mini isn't any good.
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have you thought about something more ergonomic? or tried installing o-rings?
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Where are you from? It is nothing personal, just the matter of keyboard availability, give us at least a country.
Why do you find reds painful to type with? Do you bottom out blues, how about browns?
Can you use different keyboard for gaming and typing?
Is quiet a must, or just good to have feature?
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Also, if he's having pain he might want to see a doctor. And in any event, unless we know what is causing the pain we can't give advice. Is it just fatigue from bottoming out? Then o-rings or stiffer springs might work, or topres, or alps, or... Is it something else? Then who knows.
Anyway, from what I understand about the Matias quiet switch, it has about 70g actuation force and is designed to bottom out. The impact is probably cushioned slightly by the dampeners in the slider, but not by much. I have the Apple Extended Keyboard II which the Matias is "inspired by," but I don't know how close the actual switches are. But I really like the feel of this keyboard, and t causes me no pain or fatigue. Or my brain fatigue grows faster than my hand fatigue, so the keyboard isn't an issue. At any rate, I hear great things about the Matias Quiet Pro, but I don't know if it's right for someone with a vague medical issue.
WASD carries special soft o-rings, which might be worth a try. Putting them on some reds might work.
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Probably the red cherry suited me best for gaming while typing sadly became painful in the end.
Easy solution: keep a keyboard with reds for gaming, and use different one for typing.
Painful? What kind of issue do you have with reds specifically? If bottoming out, get o-rings or stiffer springs. Otherwise, change your typing technique — it's the same as with pianists: when they experience fatigue, they're told to improve their technique.
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If you want to check out a pretty comprehensive review, my buddy Binge wrote one here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39508.msg774105#msg774105). You can check out his thoughts. I also know it's one of his daily drivers.
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I spend a good 8 hours a day typing on my Matias Quiet Pro and it's a dream to use. very happy with mine but YMMV
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I keep seeing your comments against the QP.
Do you own one?
fyi, matias quiet pro mini isn't any good.
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I keep seeing your comments against the QP.
Do you own one?
fyi, matias quiet pro mini isn't any good.
Not seeing any of my comments about how I got it? I'm going to return mine next week.
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Thanks a lot for the many comments.
Perhaps pain was an exaggeration from my side. What I mean is that my fingers feel tired much earlier with those Cherry switches than other keyboards I've had. I haven't had these problems with Logitech Dinovo and other Logitech rubber domes. But I'm looking for an even better typing experience through a mechanical keyboard.
I've read every QP article on Google, yet I'm still unsure if people like the QP just for the sound or also the level of comfort. The sound level is quite important to me, so on paper the QP is perfect for me in case it's more comfortable than the Cherry red.
I'm not quite sure if I bottom out or not, I only noticed that one hour of work was getting my fingers feeling tired too soon. The best way to describe my experience with the Cherry red is that I find it too hard to press down, so I don't know if QP is any better.
Regarding technique I have never had these problems with usual store rubber domes, as mentioned earlier.
I'm from Denmark btw. (Someone asked)
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Have you considered topre? Maybe give the hhkb or realforce(45g) a try.
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Have you considered topre? Maybe give the hhkb or realforce(45g) a try.
I am starting to agree with this. the problem is topre boards are very expensive, so to find out they aren't for you kind of sucks. they start at about $270 bucks and can be found on elitekeyboards.com
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I would just go back to rubber domes. It's cheaper anyways...haha
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Anyway, from what I understand about the Matias quiet switch, it has about 70g actuation force...
Matias quiets are supposed to be 60±5 g. And that is with tolerances that are more precise-- e.g. they shouldn't vary by ±20g like Cherry and Topre do. IMO, large variances like that can be more of a nuisance than any other benefit the keyboard might bring you.
It also occurs to me that his fingers could be uncomfortable due to a lack of resistance.
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Alright, thanks for the help.
So basically it's down to Matias Quiet Pro and Realforce 105UB both from Keyboardco.com atm.
The Realforce is £60 more (ex. VAT) than Matias Quiet Pro while the Realforce has no media control and no, on paper, "silent" switches.
Can you please try telling me if the Realforce is worth the £60 extra, and in the case of yes where does the Realforce beat the Matias?
Thanks.
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Welcome to the jungle. ;)
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I have to say my opinion on the Quiet Pro keeps going back and forth for me. Initially I didn't like it because it felt too much like rubber dome. Then it start to feel super tactile and it was really interesting. Then I went back to MX Brown a bit and thought it felt better. But then when I go back to Quiet Pro again it feels good again.
LOL it was like a really weird experience but so far I'm still using it and it's pretty good. I think it's one of those switch that takes a little bit of time to really appreciate it :)
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Can anyone please give me an idea of how good Matias Quiet Pro is and if it suits for longer periods of typing?
I have been typing on a Laptop Pro (mac tkl equivalent) for about a month now. For my hands, the switches on this keyboard are way too stiff for typing over an extended period of time, be it gaming or office work. In particular, if you say Cherry Red is too hard for you to press, then I don't think Quiet Pro will work for you since it's even harder.
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try cherry mx with o-rings. red or blue with o-rings. most of the noise and stress to your hands is probably the bottoming out. check 'em out. really cheap way to get what you want.
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I think the only issue I have w/ the Matias keyboard is I keep seeing things that have to do with quality control...like the keys not all sitting level...almost like a cheap toy...I really want the quiet mini..I just don't want quality issues...
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Can anyone please give me an idea of how good Matias Quiet Pro is and if it suits for longer periods of typing?
I have been typing on a Laptop Pro (mac tkl equivalent) for about a month now. For my hands, the switches on this keyboard are way too stiff for typing over an extended period of time, be it gaming or office work. In particular, if you say Cherry Red is too hard for you to press, then I don't think Quiet Pro will work for you since it's even harder.
I wouldn't say the Cherry Red was too hard to press, I'd say it felt fairly soft, yet my fingers felt uncomfortable after short periods of typing. That may have been due to bottoming-out, I'm not sure. You're stating that QP is even harder than Cherry Red. Do you know if Realforce is also harder than Cherry Red?
try cherry mx with o-rings. red or blue with o-rings. most of the noise and stress to your hands is probably the bottoming out. check 'em out. really cheap way to get what you want.
Honestly, I don't know what O-rings are or where I can buy those. Can you enlighten me, please?
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O-rings are little rubber rings that you install into the bottom of your keycaps. They reduce the travel/soften the landing. There's also something similar called soft-landing pads. If you want some of my thoughts on them, you can check out my review (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40227.0) on them.
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I really want the quiet mini..I just don't want quality issues...
i advice you to wait until they (maybe) solve the issues.
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I have been typing on a Laptop Pro (mac tkl equivalent) for about a month now. For my hands, the switches on this keyboard are way too stiff for typing over an extended period of time, be it gaming or office work. In particular, if you say Cherry Red is too hard for you to press, then I don't think Quiet Pro will work for you since it's even harder.
I wouldn't say the Cherry Red was too hard to press, I'd say it felt fairly soft, yet my fingers felt uncomfortable after short periods of typing. That may have been due to bottoming-out, I'm not sure. You're stating that QP is even harder than Cherry Red. Do you know if Realforce is also harder than Cherry Red?
I see. I think we may be confusing each other here. You stated that "The best way to describe my experience with the Cherry red is that I find it too hard to press down" in reply #11, and in reply #22 you are also stating that Red felt "fairly soft". Assuming I understand correctly, then what you really don't like about Red is that it hurts your fingers after typing for a while, but not because it is too stiff.
QP is much stiffer than Red, and among the switches you have tried it's closest to Black in terms of force and Brown in terms of feel (if I have to make an analogy, I would say it's like a stiffer Brown). Realforce is very soft, just the opposite. Most people like Realforce because it is "butter like". You will bottom out if you get a Realforce, even the 55g uniform (unless you really try not to, which will lower your tying rate).
Over the years I observe that there is only one way to type fast without hurting yourself, which is to type with a technique that is right for your own body. Trying out different keyboards only help you discover the technique that's right for you. So if I were you, I would stick with Brown for an extended period of time and figure out how to type on it without causing too much pain. If it is because of bottoming out, then add soft landing pads and see if it helps. Don't focus on the hardware; focus on the technique.
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O-rings is something worth trying before spending $150 on a new keyboard. I have them installed on my custom poker with blues. At first I hated them, but now i really like the shorter throw and soft landing.
i dont put o-rings on the backspace or enter keys though, it is just too satisfying to slap 'em.
so i bought these o-rings on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XWXCE/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0051XWXCE/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
but wasd sells some kind of official o-rings on their site: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/cherry-mx-rubber-switch-dampeners.html)
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After the previous comments I've started looking at the Quickfire Pro with Browns, on which I'd install O-rings.
It appears that Quickpro Pro isn't to be found with Nordic layout. I'm thinking that gives me two complicated options: 1: Buy the Quickfire Pro with different switches in Nordic layout, buy Browns on the side and swap them myself (can Browns be bought seperately?). 2: Buy the Quickfire Pro from newegg in US layout and revert it to Nordic layout (is this even possible?).
I have been typing on a Laptop Pro (mac tkl equivalent) for about a month now. For my hands, the switches on this keyboard are way too stiff for typing over an extended period of time, be it gaming or office work. In particular, if you say Cherry Red is too hard for you to press, then I don't think Quiet Pro will work for you since it's even harder.
I wouldn't say the Cherry Red was too hard to press, I'd say it felt fairly soft, yet my fingers felt uncomfortable after short periods of typing. That may have been due to bottoming-out, I'm not sure. You're stating that QP is even harder than Cherry Red. Do you know if Realforce is also harder than Cherry Red?
I see. I think we may be confusing each other here. You stated that "The best way to describe my experience with the Cherry red is that I find it too hard to press down" in reply #11, and in reply #22 you are also stating that Red felt "fairly soft". Assuming I understand correctly, then what you really don't like about Red is that it hurts your fingers after typing for a while, but not because it is too stiff.
QP is much stiffer than Red, and among the switches you have tried it's closest to Black in terms of force and Brown in terms of feel (if I have to make an analogy, I would say it's like a stiffer Brown). Realforce is very soft, just the opposite. Most people like Realforce because it is "butter like". You will bottom out if you get a Realforce, even the 55g uniform (unless you really try not to, which will lower your tying rate).
Over the years I observe that there is only one way to type fast without hurting yourself, which is to type with a technique that is right for your own body. Trying out different keyboards only help you discover the technique that's right for you. So if I were you, I would stick with Brown for an extended period of time and figure out how to type on it without causing too much pain. If it is because of bottoming out, then add soft landing pads and see if it helps. Don't focus on the hardware; focus on the technique.
I apologize for that confusion, but you're completely right.
If I were to bottom out the Realforce, would it help to install O-rings?
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Thanks a lot for the many comments.
Perhaps pain was an exaggeration from my side. What I mean is that my fingers feel tired much earlier with those Cherry switches than other keyboards I've had. I haven't had these problems with Logitech Dinovo and other Logitech rubber domes. But I'm looking for an even better typing experience through a mechanical keyboard.
I've read every QP article on Google, yet I'm still unsure if people like the QP just for the sound or also the level of comfort. The sound level is quite important to me, so on paper the QP is perfect for me in case it's more comfortable than the Cherry red.
I'm not quite sure if I bottom out or not, I only noticed that one hour of work was getting my fingers feeling tired too soon. The best way to describe my experience with the Cherry red is that I find it too hard to press down, so I don't know if QP is any better.
Regarding technique I have never had these problems with usual store rubber domes, as mentioned earlier.
I'm from Denmark btw. (Someone asked)
I'm older, and my knuckles ached at the end of the day on my Cherry keyboards. I type as lightly as possible, but you still bottom out regularly if you're going for speed. Just can't be helped.
Pain was my initial reason for trying Topre switches. I no longer have any knuckle pain. Ever. I haven't pulled out a Cherry board in months. I definitely recommend Topre if pain is an issue. The only issue might be cost. They're expensive.
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I'm older, and my knuckles ached at the end of the day on my Cherry keyboards. I type as lightly as possible, but you still bottom out regularly if you're going for speed. Just can't be helped.
Pain was my initial reason for trying Topre switches. I no longer have any knuckle pain. Ever. I haven't pulled out a Cherry board in months. I definitely recommend Topre if pain is an issue. The only issue might be cost. They're expensive.
Hey Mac - Did you have to get used to the Topre before the pain went off or it just "cured" it right away?
Also - Topre switches come in many pressure flavors. What are you using (variable, 45g or 55g)?
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If I were to bottom out the Realforce, would it help to install O-rings?
The o-rings that are commonly referred to are for Cherry switches. Realforce (Topre switches) already have a relatively soft landing, and it is rare to hear about adding o-rings to Topre switches. (You can search the forums.)
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I'm older, and my knuckles ached at the end of the day on my Cherry keyboards. I type as lightly as possible, but you still bottom out regularly if you're going for speed. Just can't be helped.
Pain was my initial reason for trying Topre switches. I no longer have any knuckle pain. Ever. I haven't pulled out a Cherry board in months. I definitely recommend Topre if pain is an issue. The only issue might be cost. They're expensive.
Hey Mac - Did you have to get used to the Topre before the pain went off or it just "cured" it right away?
Also - Topre switches come in many pressure flavors. What are you using (variable, 45g or 55g)?
I'd say it took the better part of a week for the pain to go away. But the difference was night and day. I went from knuckle pain 4 - 5 days per week to no pain...ever. I have the 87U variable silent. Typing on it took a little getting used to. For the first three days, I had to constantly remind myself to lighten up. But relaxing is also part of lightening up, and maybe that's part of the no pain thing.
My prior daily driver was a Dos Ultimate with browns. I've never tried O rings, but I have tried landing pads on a CM board with browns and didn't like them. In fact, that's my son's board now and he took them off. Didn't like them either. Something about the landing pads that changes the way the switch was engineered to work? More likely the shallower switch travel. Who knows. All I know is I'm not going back to Cherry unless they come out with a new switch that is more refined, has tactility, is relatively quiet / silent and has a soft landing. In other words, it looks like I'm staying with Topre boards for the foreseeable future.
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Try raising the side of the keyboard nearest you, so that the keyboard is more level, or even angled so that it's tilting "forward."
The problem may not be with the keyboard. Maybe your desk height, chair height, or a combination of both is causing problems.
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Try raising the side of the keyboard nearest you, so that the keyboard is more level, or even angled so that it's tilting "forward."
The problem may not be with the keyboard. Maybe your desk height, chair height, or a combination of both is causing problems.
Thanks for the input. I understand the principles of ergonomics. I have a custom built Bodybilt chair, don't use keyboard feet, forearm support with adjustable arm rests, wrists always elevated, etc. That wasn't it. It was the hard landing from my Cherry boards. I type as lightly as possible, but when pushing for productivity and speed, you end up bottoming out at least part of the time. It was like running on pavement in bare feet. A Topre board is like running in nice running shoes, while still retaining tactility and responsiveness.
I'm sorry for preaching the Topre gospel time after time. And Cherry is a great switch. I was happy with browns for many years. If you're happy with Cherry, don't switch. Topre boards are ridiculously expensive. And if you're content with Cherry boards, it would be stupid to change.
I'm no fanboy. I'd jump the Topre ship if I found something better. But...they're so good, I've kind of stopped searching.
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As an update I decided to go with the Topre. I bought a Realforce 105 UB Variable. I've now had it for five days and so far it's absolutely amazing. The sound and feel is just perfect for my taste. Thanks for the advice.
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As an update I decided to go with the Topre. I bought a Realforce 105 UB Variable. I've now had it for five days and so far it's absolutely amazing. The sound and feel is just perfect for my taste. Thanks for the advice.
Very nice! Now all the Cherry boys will consider you a Heretic. Welcome to the Dark Side!!