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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Sun, 13 April 2008, 06:07:24

Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Sun, 13 April 2008, 06:07:24: After developing pain and numbness on my right hand and wrist, I found that constant switching from home-row to mouse aggravated the symptoms.

I then bought the IBM UltraNav Keyboard for desktops, started using its trackpoint, and the pain stopped. I still used a mouse, just not nearly as often, and was perfectly happy until....

Earlier this week I spilled a glass of water on my keyboard. R.I.P. little trackpoint. I jumped online to find the Ultranav for desktops is no longer in production - though amazon does have a decent sale on it right now, probably dumping the last of its stock. I decided to look elsewhere because I was never truly happy with the ultranav, it ignored my spacebar presses just like it's thinkpad brother, and I was hoping to find something better online.

After hours of searching, this was all I could find that's still being made:

Lenovo's ThinkPad Travel Keyboard
(http://shop.lenovo.com/ISS_Static/options/US/images/IMG3235_MKT_IMG_FILENAME_1.gif) (http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/controller/e/web/LenovoPortal/en_US/catalog.workflow:item.detail?GroupID=38&Code=31P9490¤t-category-id=E6710B8C5A5F44239217E34D281CCDD9)

Unicomp's Endurapro
(http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/pckeyboards_1996_547446) (http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104wh.html)
(which I ordered)

EDIT:
I've made a list of pointing stick keyboards for desktops here:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=402
Feel free to contribute!
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: IBI on Sun, 13 April 2008, 07:55:45: You might be able to find an ergonomic keyboard with some sort of pointing device in the middle of the split (trackball, touchpad, joystick etc.), I don't know of any with trackpoints though.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Sun, 13 April 2008, 08:09:27: Quote from: Warm Woolly Sheep;3926
Am I missing any? To make matters worse, I'm a gamer, and I need least 5-key rollover - which I hear won't happen on the Endurapro. I doubt my dream keyboard exists.

That's all I know of. I own the Endurapro and like it quite a bit.

Tell us what, specific, 5-key combinations you need and I'll give them a try on my Endurapro.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Sun, 13 April 2008, 15:25:54: Quote from: IBI;3929
You might be able to find an ergonomic keyboard with some sort of pointing device in the middle of the split (trackball, touchpad, joystick etc.), I don't know of any with trackpoints though.

I was at the store yesterday and I saw an ergonomic keyboard with something in the middle, I looked closer and it was a toggle switch for zoom.

Quote from: iMav;3931

Tell us what, specific, 5-key combinations you need and I'll give them a try on my Endurapro.

Thank you! Shift, W, 3, R, Space. That's rare though, I could get by with 4.

Also, I found another one!

Samsung Q1/Q1 Ultra External USB Keyboard
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41k7EIqRERL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000GR3XFQ/metafilter-20/ref=nosim/)
(the trackpoint is hard to see, it's black)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Sun, 13 April 2008, 17:04:42: Quote from: Warm Woolly Sheep;3937
Thank you! Shift, W, 3, R, Space. That's rare though, I could get by with 4.

My Model M mini does just fine (shows "RW# " on the rollover page (http://rollover.geekhack.org)). Let me go grab my Endurapro . . . . .

Same with the Endurapro ("W#R " on the rollover page (http://rollover.geekhack.org)).
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: xsphat on Sun, 13 April 2008, 17:19:26: iMav, have you ever taken the Endurapro apart? I'm wondering where the chip is on that 'board.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Sun, 13 April 2008, 20:24:56: Quote from: xsphat;3939
iMav, have you ever taken the Endurapro apart? I'm wondering where the chip is on that 'board.

Roughly the same place as the electronics in an old Model M.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: xsphat on Sun, 13 April 2008, 20:38:30: Where is that? Is it above the arrows or above the number pad?
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Mon, 14 April 2008, 05:57:15: Quote from: iMav;3938

Same with the Endurapro ("W#R " on the rollover page (http://rollover.geekhack.org)).

Thank you so much!

I'm excited about the Endurapro, but I'm frustrated that the selection of trackpoint keyboards is so sparse. Why is that? What other pointing device can I use while typing with both hands? These things should be everywhere!

Even though there isn't a category for this, I'd like to keep an up to date list of trackpoint keyboards available for desktops on the wiki here, since my 5 hours of searching has proven no other list exists. "nipple" fans feel free to contribute:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=402
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Mon, 14 April 2008, 06:04:18: iMav, when attempting to edit the title of the page, I accidentally spammed the wiki with articles. Sorry!
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: IBI on Mon, 14 April 2008, 07:48:26: http://www.dribin.org/dave/keyboard/html/

Basically it's the keys on the corners of a leftward sloping parallelogram that will block each other, EDYH for example, or WSED, or QWAS. The modifier keys are apparently completely independant, at least where USB is concerned.

Shift, w, 3, r, space should work on most keyboards, are you having trouble with that on your current keyboard? Q, R, space might block though, I can't quite remember which column the space key is part of.

Does that Q1 keyboard work with a normal PC?
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 14 April 2008, 07:58:56: Quote from: Warm Woolly Sheep;3954
iMav, when attempting to edit the title of the page, I accidentally spammed the wiki with articles. Sorry!

No problem. :)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: ashort on Mon, 14 April 2008, 11:56:14: Pointy sticks in keyboards are just wrong. IBM should have to pay a fine or something for making this popular enough to even be a topic that I have to actively ignore. You're all MAD!
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Fri, 18 April 2008, 01:21:46: People who don't like trackpoints don't know how to use them!

Here's another fan,
http://davidbau.com/archives/2005/05/21/worlds_best_computer_keyboard.html

After reading the article I added the Space Saver II and the Trackpoint USB Keyboard to the list.

I looked all over ebay for a Trackpoing USB Keyboard, but no luck. Though I found a Space Saver II for $36 and bought it (it's not clicky though)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Fri, 18 April 2008, 08:25:33: Quote from: Warm Woolly Sheep;4064
People who don't like trackpoints don't know how to use them!

Agreed.

Also, I think that non-touch typers are well as non-traditional touch typers (specifically ones who do not rest their fingers on the "home row") don't find them useful simply because it is not as easily accessible to them.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: ashort on Fri, 18 April 2008, 08:46:22: It's still more accessible than an external mouse or trackball and strangely, I still prefer one of those over any trackpoint in existence. It's no less accessible than the touchpad on my T60, but the trackpoint isn't the one worn smooth from use.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Fri, 18 April 2008, 21:36:00: I admit that I never learned to use a touchpad. I tried for several days, and I know there are some cool things you can do (map areas for scrolling, clicking, double clicking, etc.) but I couldn't get used to it.

Is anyone good at using both? Which do you prefer?
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: xsphat on Sat, 19 April 2008, 10:27:49: I have never used a trackpoint but I don't have any problems with the trackpad in my MacBook, which was the first one I ever used. I'm wondering whether posters had bad experiences with old school trackpads sour them for all of time.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 19 April 2008, 12:37:02: I am "ok" with using a trackpad with one of my thumbs (which, AFAIC, is the only way to use one...as it allows you to keep your fingers on the keyboard). However, I don't get the whole multi-fingered gestures and so forth that are popular now.

If I am going to remove my hand from the keyboard, I'm certainly not going to use the touchpad...I'm going to reach for my Trackman. ;)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Whiskey in the Jar-o on Sun, 20 April 2008, 01:48:29: Here is one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/Trackpoint-NATURAL-Keyboard-Pencil-Head-Mouse-NEW-NIB_W0QQitemZ220186456335QQihZ012QQcategoryZ51084QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Tue, 22 April 2008, 14:48:22: Good find! That's the only ergonomic point-stick keyboard I've ever seen.

I looked it up, the board was made by Ortek and is no longer in production. I've asked the ebay seller for the model #.

Added it to the wiki:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=402
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Whiskey in the Jar-o on Thu, 24 April 2008, 00:07:21: Quote from: Warm Woolly Sheep;4136
Good find! That's the only ergonomic point-stick keyboard I've ever seen.

I looked it up, the board was made by Ortek and is no longer in production. I've asked the ebay seller for the model #.

Added it to the wiki:
http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=402

The keyboards on ThinkPads come from these 3 vendors (in decreasing order of reported quality): NMB > Alps > Chicony. It's pot luck which you one you get, though it is possible to order a replacement module made by the manufacturer of your choice from Lenovo - or at least that was the case last year.

As far as the standalone versions are concerned, I have no idea, but some bitter reviews that say "it's not as good as the ThinkPad one" are not encouraging.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Wed, 07 May 2008, 16:48:11: Both of my keyboards have now arrived.

IBM Space Saver II keyboard (using generic Synaptics driver & IBM trackpoint driver) was only $45 on ebay.
EnduraPro (default driver)

Endurapro's mechanical keys are prefereable to the space saver's membrane keys, but they're both far better than the current Ultranav/Thinkpad flimsy keys that are impossible to replace.

The EnduraPro's pointing stick is much better than I hoped, it's nearly on-par with trackpoint. The downside is that there are no custom drivers for it, so you're stuck with the default sensitivity that your mouse uses (which for me was high, just how I like it). The Space Saver II is a real trackpoint so I can use synaptics drivers with it, and adjust the sensitivity independent of my mouse. The Space Saver II also has the middle-button, which gives it a big edge over endurapro's 2 button setup.

They are both great trackpoint keyboards. Luckily I don't have to choose between them, since I use two computers :) If I had to choose though, here's how I'd do it:

Surfing, Reading, Navigating - Space Saver II
Writing - EnduraPro
I'm much happier with these keyboards than I was with the Ultranav keyboard, which is quite a feat since I loved my ultranav.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: bhtooefr on Wed, 04 June 2008, 17:06:45: I'll just note that Shift is a modifier, and doesn't typically count in key rollover numbers - the modifiers should never block.

Anyway, I greatly prefer the TrackPoint to a touchpad. But, I will say, for a touchpad, I like the one on my iBook. And, I'm running iScroll2, which gives the two-finger-scroll functionality on some models that don't normally support it. Two-finger scroll makes a touchpad almost desirable. Almost.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 05 June 2008, 08:22:33: Topre Realpoint:

http://www.topre.co.jp/products/comp/key_oem.html

(http://www.topre.co.jp/products/comp/images/key_oem_pic2.jpg)

Not exactly in the middle of the board but this thread will not be complete without it.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Sat, 07 June 2008, 07:41:43: Now that's obscure! I couldn't find a single place that sells it (in english anyway) but I've added it to the wiki:

http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=3949#post3949

Thanks for keepin the trackpoint dream alive.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: iMav on Sat, 07 June 2008, 08:25:28: Those are definitely odd places to position a trackpoint. I really don't get the point if it is not easily reachable from the home row.

BTW, thanks for contributing to the wiki WWS...it is very much appreciated!
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 07 June 2008, 16:45:48: Maybe with the right pinky? Esp. the left one.

As OEM boards those are probably not sold under the Topre brand.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: lowpoly on Wed, 11 June 2008, 02:34:54: Came across more keyboards with joysticks:

http://gett.de/onlineshop/shop/TASTATUREN/TALHP/TALHPG/TALHPGMB.html

Those are probably rubber domes ("carbon contact").

Pretty expensive, but then, they're waterproof.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: lowpoly on Thu, 12 June 2008, 06:04:23: On this page:

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/vine/keyboard/

The Oki links under the 'mini keyboard' headline. Rubber domes and scissors.
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: lowpoly on Sat, 14 June 2008, 17:26:05: Why do I always come across these?

On this page:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20070310/ni_i_in.html

Scroll down to: SAMSUNG AA-SKOTKBD/US

(http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/akiba/hotline/20070310/image/ssaa1.jpg)
Title: Desktop keyboards with a pointing stick - still in production?
Post by: Warm Woolly Sheep on Tue, 24 June 2008, 04:03:00: I did a search on the samsung AA-SKOTKBD/US, and it's the same one I linked in the wiki - the Q1 keyboard available from Amazon.