geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: JohnnyBoy on Sun, 27 April 2008, 15:26:41

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Sun, 27 April 2008, 15:26:41

One of the things that grinds my gears is the characteristic of modern keyboards to stagger the keys (slightly shifting to the right) as you move row by row from the top to the bottom. This, of course, is an inheritance from the typewriter, where keys were staggered to prevent the levers under each row of keys from interfering with the levers of another row.

If only the two halves of this TypeMatrix (http://www.typematrix.com/) keyboard were split and angled relative to each other, I'd be a happy man... :)

(http://www.typematrix.com/documents/2030usb/2030USB_full_600x244.png)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: jemkeys on Sun, 27 April 2008, 15:37:25

Look at the way your arms are angled when you type.  Staggered keys are useful for the sheer fact that nobody brings their elbows into their chest to type.

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: iMav on Sun, 27 April 2008, 17:23:42

I know that mr_sf_applet (http://geekhack.org/member.php?u=14) had a TypeMatrix keyboard.  Here's a pic he posted in this thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?p=686#post686):

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2356/1563434027_b7b6c0d43b.jpg)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: jemkeys on Sun, 27 April 2008, 17:39:43

Aw wow, I need one of those small wrist wrests for mine now ;).

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Sun, 27 April 2008, 18:02:52

Quote from: jemkeys;4223

Look at the way your arms are angled when you type.

I have, Jemkeys! That's why I type on one of these...
(http://www.mikroshop.no/katalogen.gen/Cordless_desktop_comfort.jpg)

Quote from: jemkeys;4223

Staggered keys are useful for the sheer fact that nobody brings their elbows into their chest to type.

I see your point and it holds true for the angle of my right arm... but the angle of the stagger works against the direction of my left arm.

I'm probably the only one who gets his knickers in a twist about such things, but I just think it would be great if we could do away with these design features that date from Victorian times.

Hello iMav, thanks for the photo from the other thread. It looks like the TypeMatrix is connected to another keyboard. :?

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: jemkeys on Sun, 27 April 2008, 20:06:45

Just type with the right side of your keyboard angled towards you, lol.

Problem solved :D.

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: djones on Mon, 28 April 2008, 15:40:13

The Kinesis Ergo had the same "vertical" key layout as the typematrix, and I didn't really like it. It makes sense for the keys used by the fore finger and middle finger, but for ring and pinky finger it didn't make too much sense to me.  (How many touch typists use thier pinky for 'z', for example?

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: iMav on Mon, 28 April 2008, 16:00:02

Quote from: djones;4246

(How many touch typists use thier pinky for 'z', for example?

I know that I do.  I'm pretty much "by the book" in regards to my touch typing...(at least in regards to the letters and number row)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Mon, 28 April 2008, 16:31:02

Quote from: djones;4246

The Kinesis Ergo had the same "vertical" key layout as the typematrix, and I didn't really like it. It makes sense for the keys used by the fore finger and middle finger, but for ring and pinky finger it didn't make too much sense to me.  (How many touch typists use thier pinky for 'z', for example?

Ah, but if the keys were placed in a 'grid' pattern like the TypeMatrix, then it would become possible to redesign the board for the benefit of the ring fingers and pinkies; simply move the columns of keys used by those fingers towards the typist by a short distance (different for each finger). Then those fingers wouldn't need to stretch so far to match the reach of the forefinger/middle finger. You would be left with a home 'row' that curved to accommodate the position of each fingertip, kind of like this "Abkey" from Singapore...
(http://asia.cnet.com/i/r/2004/gb/oct/abkey_b1.jpg)
(But aside from the curved home row, everything else about this keyboard is an abomination...)

As for the Kinesis Ergo, I've thought about getting one but I've heard that their reliability isn't so good. However, that's another thread... ;)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Tue, 29 April 2008, 05:02:27

Just one more pic. How's this for a weird setup? The Ergo Diver keyboard: staggered keys on the left, but a 'grid' pattern on the right...

(http://www.pcabusers.com/reviews/keyboards/ergo/ergo1.jpg)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: iMav on Tue, 29 April 2008, 06:33:49

Quote from: JohnnyBoy

Just one more pic. How's this for a weird setup? The Ergo Diver keyboard: staggered keys on the left, but a 'grid' pattern on the right...

Looks like they did that simply to conserve space.  I would have SERIOUS issues with that enter and backspace key placement.

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Tue, 29 April 2008, 09:56:43

Quote from: iMav;4276

Looks like they did that simply to conserve space.  I would have SERIOUS issues with that enter and backspace key placement.

It looks like some industrial designer remembered to include enter and backspace at the last minute! :D

I think I've found my ideal keyboard, and it is the Kinesis. I wasn't sure until I found this video on YouTube of a Kinesis in action, configured with the Dvorak layout. I could watch this over and over...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxH7Uith0tQ

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: Eclairz on Mon, 05 May 2008, 16:53:17

alternative non staggered keyboard built

https://www.keyboardspecialists.co.uk/product/by_manufacturer/bigkeys/K-BK-QW-P/Desktop.htm

looks very hard waring as well

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: JohnnyBoy on Tue, 06 May 2008, 03:00:47

Quote from: Eclairz;4418

alternative non staggered keyboard built

https://www.keyboardspecialists.co.uk/product/by_manufacturer/bigkeys/K-BK-QW-P/Desktop.htm

looks very hard waring as well

Very true, Eclairz - but I'm not sure that I could touch type with it! :)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: Eclairz on Tue, 06 May 2008, 03:10:16

well im not sure this would solve the problems but a vertical keyboard?

http://www.tifaq.com/keyboards/vertical-split-keyboards.html

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: pkamb on Tue, 10 April 2012, 15:03:57

Quote from: JohnnyBoy;61071

I see your point and it holds true for the angle of my right arm... but the angle of the stagger works against the direction of my left arm.

Why not adjust your typing method slightly? Hit "Z" with your ring finger, not pinky, and base the other keys off that:

(http://i.imgur.com/7ycDEl.png)

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: Squelos on Tue, 10 April 2012, 15:52:00

As long as you can come back to your homerow without too much trouble, ring finger or pinky seems ok to me.
The "Z" (im on an ISO layout) doesnt bother me too much, but the "q" seems a bit out of range for me.

Title: Anybody else hate staggered keys?
Post by: elef on Wed, 11 April 2012, 04:04:20

Quote from: pkamb;572604

Why not adjust your typing method slightly? Hit "Z" with your ring finger, not pinky, and base the other keys off that:

Show Image

(http://i.imgur.com/7ycDEl.png)

That's how I type (Z with ring finger, X with middle finger, C and V with index, B with right index as I'm right handed).
I cannot fathom how or why one would press Z with the pinky and X with the ring finger. The idea is absurd in terms of ergonomics in my opinion. Anyone know why typing books suggest this?