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geekhack Community => Ergonomics => Topic started by: vatin on Tue, 16 April 2013, 13:01:10
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With the end of round 2 massdrop group buy drawing near, I would like to know how do Kinesis Contoured users think about Ergodox. How do they compared ergonomically regarding the lack of key wells and stuff like that? I've found the key wells of the kinesis to significantly reduce finger travels. How do ergodox feel with the flat design. As a contary, do you find any advantages over the Kinesis's offering?
Thanks.
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The ErgoDox is a fine keyboard. Still, I find the thumb keys much easier/more comfortable to use on my Kinesis Advantage. Sorda recommended that perhaps in the future lowering the thumb keys, and move them in slightly could help, which I agree with. Also I found using our large Ctrl/Alt keys on the Kinesis makes a big improvement, versus the flat keys on the ErgoDox. I also agree the keywells of the Advantage reduce finger travel.
The big advantage the ErgoDox has of course is the ability to completely separate the two halves of the keyboard.
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Forgive my ignorance, but how much flexibility do you have in programming layouts for the Kinesis? I find the ability to make so many different layers on the ErgoDox very powerful.
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Forgive my ignorance, but how much flexibility do you have in programming layouts for the Kinesis? I find the ability to make so many different layers on the ErgoDox very powerful.
Currently the keyboard has on-board programmability features (no drivers, no software required). You can remap any key as well as create macro's. There is an embedded layer of the keyboard so essentially there are two layers.
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...I find the thumb keys much easier/more comfortable to use on my Kinesis Advantage.
What keys do you find challenging?
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...I find the thumb keys much easier/more comfortable to use on my Kinesis Advantage.
What keys do you find challenging?
The top four thumb keys and small outer thumb keys. However if you replace the top four thumb keys with larger Kinesis Ctrl/Alt/Win keycaps on the ErgoDox, it does help quite a bit. But having all flat keycaps for the thumbs are an awkward reach. Kinesis spent several years researching this 20+ years ago, thus the various keycap sizes.
Sorda mentioned that perhaps in the future if one were to lower the thumb keys and slightly move them in, that would also help which I agree with.
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The programmability of the Kinesis has up to this point been unparalleled. I'm not intimately familiar with the Ergodox, so someone that has both keyboards can speak about the comparability.
With my split Kinesis, the next step is to put the thumb key clusters on a gimble so they can be lowered, angled, etc. Hoggy had provided some nice comparison pics of Kinesis and Maltron. The Kinesis has made excellent use of the thumb key design, but some of us feel we could use a very slight tweak to the positioning. I noticed once I had split my Kinesis, I became less concerned about the thumb key positioning, probably because my overall shoulder/arm/hand position has greatly improved. I also don't have RSI. BUT....the thumb clusters will eventually be made moveable!
Now, if Kinesis would just supply PBT key caps...or if we can source a set of PBT keycaps....
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Kinesis still wins it for me because of the better thumb clusters. The Ergodox is cooler to look at though. My Truly Ergonomic gets very little love, I'm just not a fan of the middle key column instead of thumb clusters.
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The main thing that drew me to the ErgoDox is portability
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That's true. I brought the ergodox to work to show some friends in a small suitcase-like carrier which is something that I certainly couldn't do with a Kinesis. The ergodox certainly isn't bad however and when I get a more sensible keycap setup on it perhaps I'll like it a bit more.
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i actually love the thumb cluster placement on the ergodox, the outer keys are not reachable without moving hand but the keys i have mapped to those i don't want to accidentally press anywayz. all i need is easy access to the 2 2x unit keys. maybe I wouldn't like the kenesis..... i also like a good 12+ inches of space between the hands which the kenesis advantage does't have but the staggered rubber-dome freestyle does have....
I'll see what kenesis has to offer later this year if that is still coming. I'm always open to new things :)
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I'll see what kenesis has to offer later this year if that is still coming. I'm always open to new things :)
Ditto. I hope ergodox gave them some inspiration.
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The programmability of the Kinesis has up to this point been unparalleled. I'm not intimately familiar with the Ergodox, so someone that has both keyboards can speak about the comparability.
i've yet to build my ergodox as I'm still waiting for my teensies due to a problem with my order (which Massdrop are handling brilliantly I hasten to add) so i've not been able to get any practical experience with it yet, and my kinesis is the ps/2 classic model so the newer models may be better when it comes to programming them, but I've found the kinesis' programability to be lacking in comparison. yes the kinesis has its keypad layer, but that is toggled with a horrid rubber key that is not nicely placed, and that is the one key that is not remappable :( and its programming is limited to moving the location of a key, you can't program a key with something that isn't physically on the board, and you can't change shift states or anything fancy like that - e.g. having the 1! key do ! instead of 1 when shift isn't pressed. the ergodox has some pretty comprehensive editabilily using the massdrop ui, and immeasurably moreso if you're happy to jump into the C code for further tweakage. future updates to the firmware are expected that'll make the C-less tweaking easier too :)
and the ED has a few extra keys with the additional bottom row key for the little finger and the 3 key inner column that i'm looking forward to getting as the basic kinesis layout is just lacking a couple of keys for my taste.
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Both keyboards are great, I use an Advantage LF at work, and for the last several weeks an Ergodox at home.
My main issue with the Ergodox is I misstype keys, especially the number row. I never misstype on the Advantage, but on the Ergodox I have to peek at the keyboard occasionally.
Programmability wise, the Ergodox is more flexible, but you have to go to the website, then (for me) compile the firmware, flash the keyboard, etc, while with the Advantage you do it on the keyboard itself literally in few seconds. So there are pros and cons in each case.
Regarding the layer switch key on the Advantage, it CAN be remapped, however you need a footswitch to do so:
Go to remap mode, hit the footswitch as the "source" and then hit the destination key you want to clone the function to.
The key becomes a remap toggler. In my case I prefer a momentary layer shifter, which is how only the footswitch operates, but I solved that by adding extra keys that I wired to the footswitch terminals. You can read about my mods here:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=26579.0
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A bit late here, but for those asking for layers, there is a software in OSX called Controllermate, http://www.orderedbytes.com/controllermate/ (http://www.orderedbytes.com/controllermate/) for $24 USD that allows you to create layers, reprogram keys and... do any type of programing by drawing components. Works for keyboards, mice, etc. I've used it with all my keyboards and it's absolutely wonderful! For Kinessis, I would map the DELETE key to be a layer control, so to press it and switch to another layer immediately, and is in a very good position. Additionally, you can make the key to be like caps lock (on / off) or to keep it pressed for the changes... I've done mappings of keyboards with 12 layers!
There must be something similar for Win. However, if you really need to be using your keyboard in different computers all the time, software layers are obviously not an option.
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just a small update:
Ergodox with it's split design let's you have your keys on a chair rest or wherever you want, and at the angle you want. The kinesis is very comfortable, but it's set on a position. the Ergodox takes the cake there.
Ergodox is WAY more portable. hands down.
Kinesis is faster to program. Ergodox is a full firmware update for each change. Ergodox's is way more powerful, but 0 practical.
Ergodox has more layers than Kinesis.
Ergodox has more buttons.
Kinesis is MORE comfy and ergonomic. hands down.
HOWEVER
After using sordna's palm mod for over a month, I can say that in no way I can live without them now. I type way more comfortable switching layers with the palm mod, and just for that, I would say the advantage (thanks to the contoured keys) with the palm mods beats the ergodox for ergonomic purposes. However, if someone grabs and ergodox and uses the full kit and applies a palm mod, then they may get the same results.
but the countoured design of the kinesis makes it the better choice IMHO.
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Can't believe that I did not respond to this thread already. Anyways, the acquisition of an Ergodox essentially inspired me to get rid of my Kinesis Advantage. While I did prefer the ergonomic design of the Kinesis, the split adjustability, multitude of buttons and programmability of the Ergodox ultimately won my heart. It was that simple.
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Does Hasu's firmware for the ErgoDox support recording of macros yet?
That is one thing that the Kinesis has, also it has more macro memory than the AVR µC in the Teensy has EEPROM.
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A bit of a necro, but for future reference: On-the-fly Programmable Keyboard Firmware for Kinesis and Ergodox (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56923)