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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: bigpook on Wed, 28 May 2008, 19:33:35
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I have a 1986 model m spacesaver and a 1986 model m 1391401. I got both off of ebay. I also have a unicomp linux board that is about a year or so old.
I really like the spacesaver though, the form factor is just about perfect for me. I have been using it pretty much exclusively. As of late I have noticed that the feel of the keys feel somewhat springy, it still clicks well and all of the keys work, but it seems to take less pressure to register a keystroke. Once the key registers it returns straightaway. For some reason the light pressure is annoying the hell out of me. So much so that its now sitting on the shelf in the closet.
I am typing on the unicomp board as I type this and there is a definite difference in feel. The unicomp feels tighter than the spacesaver. Not binding or anything. It just takes just a bit more pressure to register the keystroke, its really noticeable to me on the enter key.
I really prefer the unicomp over the model m, the feel is noticeable straightaway.
So my question to those that have more of a history with the Model M than I do is do Model M keyboards wear out?
If so, then how do they wear out?
I would imagine the obvious where the keys could possibly lock up or stick, but I am not having that problem.
As the keyboard gets older, does the feel get 'sloppier'?
I hope someone here can answer this question.
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My model F is pretty old, and I think the Z or C keys sometimes did not register, but the springiness is still there. Although the Model F is not a Model M keyboard, I can tell you that IBM has worked a lot of magic to build something that is lasting for 23 years (c.1985) and counting. One or two buckling springs have rusted, but the keyboard is very dependable nonetheless.
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My model m's are dependable in that they both work fine. It is the feel of the keys that is throwing me off. I think that my unicomp feels 'tighter' simply because it is new, it may take years for it to truly break in.
Both model m's that I have were made in 1986, for all I know the previous owners were typing demons, typing at a million letters a minute. : )
Almost like the difference between a new car with 200 miles on the clock versus the same car with 100,000 miles on it.
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I'm sure those springs don't last forever.
Is the feel consistent with all the keys?
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FWIW, I've been using my main model M daily (anywhere between 2-14 hours a day) for the last three years, and the thing was pretty dinged up to begin with... I haven't noticed the slightest difference. Nor do any of my other M's feel "off" - I'm sure they're breakable at some point...
I once popped the space bar off (smacked the keyboard)... put it right back in, no difference at all in the feel of it.
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I'm sure those springs don't last forever.
Is the feel consistent with all the keys?
Yes, they do. All the keys feel the same.
It just feels different to me, and I know I am not imaging it.
You would think that ALL model m's would feel the same, no?
I am thinking that the board has had alot of use and is worn in. Its hard to describe.
By no means am I knocking the model m's, I think they are great and built to last.
As I don't have a new model m to compare to, I am left to reference it to the unicomp, which is the closest I can get to a new model m.
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You would think that ALL model m's would feel the same, no?
not really. keep in mind, millions of these keyboards were made over the course of two decades. the imperfect nature of mass production almost guarantees that the keyboards are not all going to turn out exactly the same.
i've got several model m's and while a few feel very similar or even identical, some do feel distinctly different.
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Yo Pook, I wouldn't be so quick to think all Model Ms feel the same. The buckling springs are based on a membrane keyboard, and the feel of membranes varies quite a bit. My Model M got stored for a while because I thought it felt too membrany, but I recently pulled it out again and saw the light! I like it more than I did then, but now I'm back to my old self -- hooked on Alps.
And if I were you, I'd consider the Unicomp 'board as a real Model M without hesitation.
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i've got several model m's and while a few feel very similar or even identical, some do feel distinctly different.
Agreed, not even among the different 1391401's I've owned/tried is the feel exactly the same. Not a huge difference of course, but noticeable enough.
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Yo Pook, I wouldn't be so quick to think all Model Ms feel the same. The buckling springs are based on a membrane keyboard, and the feel of membranes varies quite a bit. My Model M got stored for a while because I thought it felt too membrany, but I recently pulled it out again and saw the light! I like it more than I did then, but now I'm back to my old self -- hooked on Alps.
And if I were you, I'd consider the Unicomp 'board as a real Model M without hesitation.
And I do, I am typing on it now and I prefer the feel of it over the spacesaver. I know it all comes down to personal preferences, its all so quirky anyway. That is to say that what feels springy and loose for me, could just as well feel spot-on for someone else.
Of all the things that could possibly consume my time, in a obsessive-compulsive way, I get a keyboard affliction. I need to go outside and walk around : )
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And if I were you, I'd consider the Unicomp 'board as a real Model M without hesitation.
I really want to try one of these:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/122keyterkey.html
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I really want to try one of these:
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/122keyterkey.html
Your a maniac : )
I am waiting for the unicomp mighty mouse, myself. If that fails to materialize, then I will probably go with this
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html
I really like the feel of my current unicomp keyboard
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.htm
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Your a maniac : )
Takes one to know one :p
I am waiting for the unicomp mighty mouse, myself. If that fails to materialize, then I will probably go with this
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/en104bl.html
Wy would you want something smaller? I don't really get the appeal of it, unless you have a really small/cluttered desk I guess.
I really like the feel of my current unicomp keyboard
http://pckeyboards.stores.yahoo.net/customizer.htm
Not a bad deal at all for a brand new model M! Still... I'm nervous about ordering anything from them as I'm afraid I won't be the exact same feel as the old M's (which I know is probably BS anyways, but still...) - I don't own a M13, and frankly, every time one shows up on ebay the prices (and sniping) are not my cup of tea.. maybe this will be what I'll get instead.
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Takes one to know one :p
guilty as charged : )
Wy would you want something smaller? I don't really get the appeal of it, unless you have a really small/cluttered desk I guess.
I like small form factor keyboards, don't really know why, its just one of those things. One day, I will get the HHKB 2 Pro. I just need to rationalize the cost somehow.....
Not a bad deal at all for a brand new model M! Still... I'm nervous about ordering anything from them as I'm afraid I won't be the exact same feel as the old M's (which I know is probably BS anyways, but still...) - I don't own a M13, and frankly, every time one shows up on ebay the prices (and sniping) are not my cup of tea.. maybe this will be what I'll get instead.
I have a unicomp keyboard that I am using as we speak, trust me, its a great keyboard. Its about as close to a new Model M as I will ever get.
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Takes one to know one :p
guilty as charged : )
Wy would you want something smaller? I don't really get the appeal of it, unless you have a really small/cluttered desk I guess.
I like small form factor keyboards, don't really know why, its just one of those things. One day, I will get the HHKB 2 Pro. I just need to rationalize the cost somehow.....
Not a bad deal at all for a brand new model M! Still... I'm nervous about ordering anything from them as I'm afraid I won't be the exact same feel as the old M's (which I know is probably BS anyways, but still...) - I don't own a M13, and frankly, every time one shows up on ebay the prices (and sniping) are not my cup of tea.. maybe this will be what I'll get instead.
I have a unicomp keyboard that I am using as we speak, trust me, its a great keyboard. Its about as close to a new Model M as I will ever get.
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Talk about crazy? my plan is to buy:
CVT Avant Prime
A Unicomp 'board
and
a Das III
I think I'm the one who is nuts.
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Talk about crazy? my plan is to buy:
CVT Avant Prime
A Unicomp 'board
and
a Das III
I think I'm the one who is nuts.
I would like a Das III just for the blue cherry switches, along with the elusive Mighty Mouse.......so I guess I am 2 for your 3.
Does that make me 2/3 of a nut?
Damn, I'm not even a full nut.
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CVT Avant Prime
Yeah, I've been eyeing that one as well...
A Unicomp 'board
Which one?
a Das III
Not really feeling the Das line... seems like a good quality kb (at least the Das II), but also overpriced for what it is, and that always really puts me off (insert snappy Apple diss here for a good flame ;))
I think I'm the one who is nuts.
Neh.. I think we're pretty well behaved here, it's a hell of a lot cheaper of a hobby than dsrl's or hifi equipment :twisted:
(at least that's what I keep telling the wifey-unit hehehe...)
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I don't rightly know which Unicomp to get. Probably a Space Saver if the Mighty Mouse doesn't show (or does and sucks).
And as for the Das III, I dig the redesign and I think it would fit in well with my keyboard mood-switching. It is overpriced, but so is all my Apple hardware ... Waves77.
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I don't rightly know which Unicomp to get. Probably a Space Saver if the Mighty Mouse doesn't show (or does and sucks).
And as for the Das III, I dig the redesign and I think it would fit in well with my keyboard mood-switching. It is overpriced, but so is all my Apple hardware ... Waves77.
Hopefully we'll hear all about it when you do get the Das III - it's hard going by average reviews by non-keyboard-geeks ;)
Just for the record, I did buy my wife an iMac 20" for our anniversary and I think it was totally worth it (besides not having to support Vista) :)
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"Too membrany"? What does that mean? The M:s have a solid back and not a dome in sight. Hard to see how the register method would have such a pronounced "feel".
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"Too membrany"? What does that mean? The M:s have a solid back and not a dome in sight. Hard to see how the register method would have such a pronounced "feel".
:) Maybe xsphat can clarify, as I certainly don't think he was actually referring to the membrane switches on the Model M (as we know, they have as much to do with a Model M's "feel" as the electrical capacitive switches do on a HHKB Pro).
Perhaps he meant that there was some characteristic of the feel of his Model M that, in some way reminded him of the typical dome+membrane mushy feel?
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Next, we're gonna have to post in legal speak.
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In my opinion, the root of all typing evil can be found in the current run Dell black space savers and the last run white Apple keyboards. Now, since I am not going to buy both of them to rip apart to get patent numbers for all of you guys, and since I know both have membranes, I'm going to call them membranes. Maybe they have domes, maybe they have tiny elves in them to register the keystrokes, I don't know. What I do know is that they both suck something terrible.
Furthermore, I don't know what makes Cherry MX blues or Alps whites feel so good, and even if I ripped them apart I wouldn't be able to figure that out. So I do call keyboards by their switches.
And I own a membrane keyboard I like - the HHKB Lite 1 - I have it at work and I didn't know if it uses domes or what, but I know it feels better than any other membrane keyboard I've used.
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I've spent quality time typing on more than a dozen M's over the years and currently own several. There is, without a doubt, some variance in the way the keys feel from board to board. Some (a slight majority perhaps) are extra tight and clicky, others a little softer with a sloppier (relatively speaking) key feel. Unfortunately all of the boards I've used have been acquired second hand, so there's no telling if the difference in feel is related to amount/type of previous usage.
That said, there are three 1391401 M's I've typed on consistently (two at work, one at home) for the last several years, and while I could probably identify each by key feel alone, they all feel about the same as when I first used them. It certainly doesn't feel like any of them will be wearing out any time soon
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I've spent quality time typing on more than a dozen M's over the years and currently own several. There is, without a doubt, some variance in the way the keys feel from board to board. Some (a slight majority perhaps) are extra tight and clicky, others a little softer with a sloppier (relatively speaking) key feel. Unfortunately all of the boards I've used have been acquired second hand, so there's no telling if the difference in feel is related to amount/type of previous usage.
That said, there are three 1391401 M's I've typed on consistently (two at work, one at home) for the last several years, and while I could probably identify each by key feel alone, they all feel about the same as when I first used them. It certainly doesn't feel like any of them will be wearing out any time soon
Thats what I am seeing, my spacesaver is the softer/sloppier compared to my 1391401. The 1401 is closer in feel to my unicomp board. I have another spacesaver coming to me so I look forward to seeing how the feel is on that one. I will let you guys know, once I get it.
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Legal speak or force charts could be fun, but I was simply wondering more specifically what you meant - too much feedback? Too little?
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By membraney I mean the squishing feeling of biting into gristle at the bottom of the keystroke.
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Thanks for the heads up.
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I'll note that my favorite keyboard to type on, out of all keyboards I've typed on in the world, is IBM Model M p/n 1391401, s/n 0126050, manufactured 1993-06-03 by IBM.
There's definitely a wide variance in typing feel between keyboards. My Unicomp's typing feel feels... gravelly, yet lighter? I'm not sure how to describe it. It's definitely different, but I still like it - a lot - so it's my second favorite keyboard, and being USB, with 104 keys, and a TrackPoint, it's the one I use the most.
I definitely feel that the earlier keyboards have the best feel, though - but part of that could be break-in. These keyboards definitely have a break-in period... (It took a few days of typing with my EnduraPro before I felt comfortable with it.) Both my 1993 and my 1991 are very, very nice. (And, the 1991 was just as nice as the 1993 before it got a bit of rust on the springs.) The Lexmark boards I have... I hate my M13. Then again, I think that's the fault of the idiots that refurbished it. The parts board, I didn't type on much, but I didn't find it bad, but certainly not excellent.