geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 18:50:15

Title: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 18:50:15
Of the major brands of minis, the HHK and Poker seem to have very different layouts than other brands, especially on the layered/function levels.  Many people at Geekhack complain about the "ignorance" of the layouts of these other brands.  But, isn't the difference in layouts mostly due to the intended use of the various keyboards?  In general, aren't the HHK and Poker designed for "coding" and the like, and the other brands designed for more varied uses?
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: frenchie4111 on Tue, 07 May 2013, 19:10:26
There is also the fact that the 60% and other mini layouts are intended for portability, while the full 104 would be a huge hassle to drag around from place to place.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 19:14:47
There is also the fact that the 60% and other mini layouts are intended for portability, while the full 104 would be a huge hassle to drag around from place to place.
I'm comparing minis to minis, not to other size keyboards.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: oneproduct on Tue, 07 May 2013, 20:31:49
None of the mini layouts are particularly advantageous for coding. And before someone jumps in to say otherwise, yes, the HHKB does have its control key where caps lock would normally be, but that's hardly enough to call it a coding layout. The HHKB's function key is too far off from the home row position and part of the poker's function layer doesn't make sense, particularly with home and end not being next to each other. I would go further to say that trying to use Ctrl + Shift + Fn + Home/End/Arrow is pretty mindboggling at how many keys you have to press at once with that added Fn key (compared to non-mini layouts) and the non-standard arrow position with spatially is rather confusing and tight with the other keys pressed in that sequence.

There are actual programming layouts, like "Dvorak for programmers" which is different than normal Dvorak, and I think that Neo (a primarily German layout?) also favors programming. Both of these accomplish this by putting harder to reach symbols that are commonly used in programming, notably ()[]{} closer to the homerow.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: EZjiji on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:05:39
HHKB has a unix layout. Doesn't mean much for coding.

The smaller form factors are just nice for portability and they take up less space on your desk.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: Lastpilot on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:17:51
I would agree with all of the previous posts especially where oneproduct clears up the common misconception of these layouts being more coder-friendly.

Being a Poker user, I've found it to be suitable for my needs because I really want to have as much desk space as possible. Not everybody can afford to have a nice wide desk, so the mini layouts give us more real estate at the cost of numkeys and layered arrows and function keys. If you have a small workspace, the mini layout is worth it.

More Desk Space
Less keycaps to buy [um...kind of a bold claim but you know what I mean]
Aesthetically pleasing
Title: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: daerid on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:24:46
Of all the mini layouts I've tried, the Leo 660 layout is the best for general purpose use, and by far the best for programming (which is all I do every day).

It's the first mini layout that I don't struggle with.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:27:42
So, HHKB and Poker are more sought after than others because of their uniqueness (Topre/programability), and others (Pure, Pure Pro, Minila, Beetle, FC660M) are considered inferior imitations?

And now comes the FC660C, a cheaper way to get something unique.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: Lastpilot on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:34:54
Neither HHKB or Poker are programmable (that would mean we would be able to customize what keys do what actions like the GH60 or Phantom or KMAC), but yes that seems to be the general consensus.

I wouldn't consider the Pure to be strictly inferior to the HHKB or Poker, it's just that the layout isn't as easily customized. This is the same problem many of the other mini layouts have: irregular keycap sizes. So because of customization, many people limit themselves to something closer to standard.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:36:45
Of all the mini layouts I've tried, the Leo 660 layout is the best for general purpose use, and by far the best for programming (which is all I do every day).

It's the first mini layout that I don't struggle with.
Agree!  At the moment, Qtang is trying to get me an FC660M.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: davkol on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:42:34
HHKB has the original unix layout, nothing to see here.

Poker... well, looking at all those 60% keyboards (Pure, TEX, Poker 2, Pure Pro etc.), I think "engineers" are just throwing random layouts there without any purpose in mind... either that, or it's experiment—someone wants to test people's ability to adopt counter-intuitive layouts.

However, there are some compact keyboards quite suitable for programming:

Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Tue, 07 May 2013, 22:43:06
Neither HHKB or Poker are programmable (that would mean we would be able to customize what keys do what actions like the GH60 or Phantom or KMAC), but yes that seems to be the general consensus.

I wouldn't consider the Pure to be strictly inferior to the HHKB or Poker, it's just that the layout isn't as easily customized. This is the same problem many of the other mini layouts have: irregular keycap sizes. So because of customization, many people limit themselves to something closer to standard.

Think the new Poker is programmable.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: daerid on Tue, 07 May 2013, 23:13:09
It really depends on what you're used to. For somebody who lives in the unix world day to day, the HHKB is phenomenal. I could never really adjust to the Poker layout. It just required too much mental reprogramming.

For your average QWERTY user, I maintain the Leo 660 layout is going to be the easiest transition (not to mention a cheap way to try out Topre switches on the 660C). And if you don't like Topre, it comes in Cherry MX too! Best of both worlds.

Sorry if I'm gushing like a school girl, but I'm truly in love with this board.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: BlueBär on Wed, 08 May 2013, 03:38:12
Think the new Poker is programmable.
Nope. Edit: Whoops I think it is. It says it is in the group buys link.

I bought the Pure and not the Poker mainly because of the exra key which I need for my layout (German layout has more symbols and is more compressed because of the umlauts). Really the only flaw is that it then uses a short right shift, but I can live with that. Also using the shift, alt, win and ctrl keys as arrow keys is actually kind of intuitive. However, the function layer is kind of random, I doubt I will remember it without the labels.
The Pure Pro has a horrible unintuitive layout with a load of incompatible keycaps, especially the small spacebar. I would never recommend it to anybody.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: whiskerBox on Wed, 08 May 2013, 09:07:15
I originally got the HHKB for coding, but I keep coming back to tkl layouts for the arrows, home, and end. Now with that being said I still use the HHKB to code frequently. While I believe the layout is still a lot better than the poker it is still annoying at times. Right now I am kind of interested in that new topre leopold, but it still doesn't look perfect either. Honestly I really wish the topre 76u concept was real although it does not really provide a better solution either. Ok rant over continue on.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 May 2013, 10:15:06
I like 60% as it has all I need. I am mostly gamer or just typing words and stuff so I don't need all those other keys almost ever. I had a Poker first, and while I thought the second layer placements for most of them were quite poor, it didn't really bother me much since I don't really use them. Now I have GH60 and put them all where I want them so I don't have to try and remember or look on the paper like I had to with Poker.
Really the GH60 is the best as it is most suitable for anyone since they can build and program it their own way. Everything else exists for different tastes on a close enough to deal with basis.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Wed, 08 May 2013, 11:12:31
Lysol,
Above, you said, "I am mostly gamer or just typing words and stuff..."  Out of curiosity, what switch did you install on the GH60?
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 08 May 2013, 11:59:26
I have reds with a black on the space, and a couple other specialty switch for lulz, locking on the right shift and superblack on the caps lock.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: therecorder on Wed, 08 May 2013, 12:03:29
I have reds with a black on the space, and a couple other specialty switch for lulz, locking on the right shift and superblack on the caps lock.
Now that's a special mini...
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: Grimey on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:08:44
Poker layout for me is fantastic for work.  Leaving the "Arrow Mode" toggled on and the "Esc Lock" toggled in combination with Vim bindings for Visual Studio has sufficiently meet all my keyboard requirements.  It is fortunate that I don't require the tilde key much if ever (lame that the toggle fails work correctly), but everything is easy to access without anything I don't need.

If I was doing perl programming I would be more upset about the tilde key, but that is something that AutoHotKey could fix well enough in windows world.

tl;dr; Poker has everything I need.
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: daerid on Wed, 08 May 2013, 13:11:10
@Grimey: What plugin do you use in Visual Studio for Vim? I've tried both VsVim and ViEmu, and I can never get them to work the right way for me :(
Title: Re: Mini Layouts - Explanation Please?
Post by: czarek on Wed, 08 May 2013, 14:41:19
I mostly work with Perl and Python using Vim on OS X. Also deal with FreeBSD servers and various SQL databases often and I find HHKB absolutely perfect for the job.
Although I like fullsize Unicomp when I work more with Cocoa in XCode...