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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: zetan on Thu, 26 June 2008, 02:29:21
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Diatec is releasing a variety of FILCO Majestouch space saver models on 7/4.
Standard pricing is about $100 (10,800 yen). See:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/det.php?prod_c=569 (US English, Cherry Brown, N-key rollover)
Other models:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/list.php?cate_c=1&subcate_sq=2
Look pretty, don't they? :)
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Thanks for clearing up that whole "what's my next keyboard gonna be" thing. Now all I have to do is decide between the browns and the blacks.
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Thanks for clearing up that whole "what's my next keyboard gonna be" thing. Now all I have to do is decide between the browns and the blacks.
Since when do you like the blacks?
Hmm, it would be better if they put the blues in one of these, but until then - I'll take one with the browns...
btw, thanks for the info zetan...
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I have never liked Cherry blacks, that was a joke. But then again the browns aren't my thing either, but since the Topre is going to cost three times as much, this Filco is a wise buy.
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ISO 9241-410 (http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_tc/catalogue_detail.htm?csnumber=38899) which came out in 2008 deals with ergonomic input and recommends compact keyboards. There will be more space savers in the future.
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:)
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I have never liked Cherry blacks, that was a joke. But then again the browns aren't my thing either, but since the Topre is going to cost three times as much, this Filco is a wise buy.
Certainly not a wise buy for you. You don't like the browns (nor the blacks, of course), and you are, admittedly, into big boards right now.
So, isn't this the exact oppose of what you'd want in a keyboard these days?
Any chance these will be available with blue Cherries?
Key layout is acceptable. Give me a "double blue" one (blue Cherries and bluetooth) and I think I'd be pretty happy with one of these.
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Wow...that's NICE.
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how easy is it to just swap out keyswitches? from black to blue?
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how easy is it to just swap out keyswitches? from black to blue?
Soldering iron and lots of patience (more than I have). I've seen pics before (maybe posted here?) about doing exactly that. Too bad the switches don't plug into the board. =-D
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You could make a keyboard that used ZIF sockets for the keyswitches, though...
Not that it'd be cost-effective, but...
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how easy is it to just swap out keyswitches? from black to blue?
Depending on how the switches are mounted into the board, a small fork may be sufficient (http://my3c.com/D5/viewthread.php?tid=4625&extra=&page=1).
I've swapped the blacks with browns in my Cherry Touchboard and used just a paperclip as you can see in the images below - I've got a few more pics here but cannot post more than 5, you should get the idea anyway.
Took around 2 or 3 hours and a lot of patience :)
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Depending on how the switches are mounted into the board, a small fork may be sufficient (http://my3c.com/D5/viewthread.php?tid=4625&extra=&page=1).
I've swapped the blacks with browns in my Cherry Touchboard and used just a paperclip as you can see in the images below - I've got a few more pics here but cannot post more than 5, you should get the idea anyway.
Took around 2 or 3 hours and a lot of patience :)
wow, this simply brutal... but I have to confess - a lot of ideas are coming to my head :)
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I've swapped the blacks with browns in my Cherry Touchboard and used just a paperclip as you can see in the images below - I've got a few more pics here but cannot post more than 5, you should get the idea anyway.
Can you do the same with clicky cherry switches without any problem like black -> blue? I used the same method you used to replace a green switch with a blue switch and it worked perfectly, but I'm not aware that the method would apply in the case of black2blue.
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Can you do the same with clicky cherry switches without any problem like black -> blue? I used the same method you used to replace a green switch with a blue switch and it worked perfectly, but I'm not aware that the method would apply in the case of black2blue.
AFAIK, the only parts that differ from one Cherry switch type to another are (1) the colored plastic bit (which has a less or more pronounced notch to produce the click / tactile response) and (2) the spring (harder/softer).
So, the tricky part is to dismount the switches installed into the keyboard that you want to upgrade. If they're mounted in a way that you can access the plastic clips that hold the black switch cover, you can use the above method to open them and replace the colored bit and the spring. If they're not, you'll need a solder and a lot more patience :)
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AFAIK, the only parts that differ from one Cherry switch type to another are (1) the colored plastic bit (which has a less or more pronounced notch to produce the click / tactile response) and (2) the spring (harder/softer).
So, the tricky part is to dismount the switches installed into the keyboard that you want to upgrade. If they're mounted in a way that you can access the plastic clips that hold the black switch cover, you can use the above method to open them and replace the colored bit and the spring. If they're not, you'll need a solder and a lot more patience :)
I think you can take the top off of switches on most, if not all,
keyboards with cherry switches. Soldering method is more
laborious than the top-off method as you know. But the question
is whether keys still hold the same clickiness and resistance
after replacement from non-clicky-to-clicky switches using the
top-off replacement method. That I'm not sure about (though in
the case of clicky-to-clicky switches, they'll both be the same).
Have you tried it?
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Of course, that opens up another possibility - mixing and matching parts to make the switch you want, if the different switches have different stiffness springs...
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I think you can take the top off of switches on most, if not all,
keyboards with cherry switches. Soldering method is more
laborious than the top-off method as you know. But the question
is whether keys still hold the same clickiness and resistance
after replacement from non-clicky-to-clicky switches using the
top-off replacement method. That I'm not sure about (though in
the case of clicky-to-clicky switches, they'll both be the same).
Have you tried it?
I'm pretty much sure that the tactility, clickiness and strength of the switch is determined only by the colored plastic bit and the spring. The bottom part is identical.
My keyboard switches were linear before the upgrade, now they're definitely tactile (not clicky). I can't feel the difference between an upgraded black->brown switch and an "original" brown switch (I have a few left).
You can find a thorough analysis of Cherry switches in this page (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm), if you can read japanese or fancy trying to decipher an automated translation. :)
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Of course, that opens up another possibility - mixing and matching parts to make the switch you want, if the different switches have different stiffness springs...
Thinking about some spring surgery (http://mykeyboard.co.uk/surgery/)? :)
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You can find a thorough analysis of Cherry switches in this page (http://park16.wakwak.com/~ex4/kb/tech_cherry_mx.htm), if you can read japanese or fancy trying to decipher an automated translation. :)
It even has a GIF which shows how the blue keyswitches make their noise :-) very nice link. Although at the moment I am far too scared about wrecking my current keyboard to do any Key whole board Surgery ;-). Makes you think with a bit of tinkering you could make a unique keyboard, imagine an all green cherry keyswitch board, made up from spacebar keyswitches. It might even be noisier than a model M buckling spring.
Or mix white browns and blacks for a topre type mixed keyswitch weighted keyboard
Edit : Also shows how notches work to make the white and brown stems give that tactile feeling, bigger notch = greater tactile sense, but since there is no moving part like blue keyswitches have there is less noise from one part springing down. Lots of configurabilty, if anyone was bothered to make a really good mold
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I'm pretty much sure that the tactility, clickiness and strength of the switch is determined only by the colored plastic bit and the spring. The bottom part is identical.
I see. It looks like cherry switches are more flexible in terms
of customizability than I thought. If every cherry switch has an
identical bottom part, you can replace any cherry switch back and
forth. It also means that soldering is unnecessary because all
you have to do is just change the top and the spring associated
with it. I think I'm excited. Thanks for clearing that up, xyzzy! :)
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Check it (http://benippon.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=15660).
:) (beNippon rocks)
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Any chance this could beat HHKB Pro2? Cherry browns give a different feel right? How is it supposed to be more "ergonomic"?
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Any chance this could beat HHKB Pro2? Cherry browns give a different feel right? How is it supposed to be more "ergonomic"?
I wouldn't say it "beats" the HHKB Pro2. The key action is completely a matter of preference. I'm not sure what the exact key press pressure is, but it feels a lot lighter than the HHKB Pro2.
That's not a good a or bad thing.... it's just lighter. The HHKB Pro 2 registers the key in the middle of the key travel just like the cherry switches. However, the HHKB Pro 2 feels more "springy" after the key is activated.
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And lighter means less pressure is needed to register a key right? I guess that probably makes it more ergonomic in a sense.
In a way, does springy feeling make it faster to type in the sense that the finger returns to the original position more quickly?
But then again, about the Filco, the standard keyboard layout makes it less appealing to me. I guess I'm out to try something new.
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And lighter means less pressure is needed to register a key right? I guess that probably makes it more ergonomic in a sense.
Not neccessarily. If the keys are too light you may not be able to rest your fingers on the home row comfortably. As soon as you have to pull them up constantly to avoid accidental key presses, your ergonomics go bye-bye.
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Hmm that's true. Is the Filco like that? I don't think the Cherry browns could go so wrong, could they?
I think that's exactly what's happening on my Alum Apple keyboard back at home. Pretty dumb..
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Hmm that's true. Is the Filco like that? I don't think the Cherry browns could go so wrong, could they?
I think that's exactly what's happening on my Alum Apple keyboard back at home. Pretty dumb..
No, they are not this light, at least mine is not...this happens to me only in very rare occasions, i even think that the blue cherries are more likely to be pressed by accident, the browns are more springy..
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I read at the start of the thread that this keyboard would be around the $100 mark - is that reasonably accurate? One would think that a keyboard that had fewer components and therefore was probably cheaper to make would retail for a lower price than the regular full-sized models - unless i'm missing something here. Perhaps the exclusivity drives up the price.
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Also, exchange rate is an issue - realize that the dollar is in the toilet.
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I read at the start of the thread that this keyboard would be around the $100 mark - is that reasonably accurate? One would think that a keyboard that had fewer components and therefore was probably cheaper to make would retail for a lower price than the regular full-sized models - unless i'm missing something here. Perhaps the exclusivity drives up the price.
Don't forget about supply and demand. They sell less small form factor keyboards...
BTW, I just preordered from beNippon and they are now no longer accepting preorders for this board. Looks like they had a preorder reservation limit that they just hit.
Out of curiosity, who here preordered through beNippon??
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Don't forget about supply and demand. They sell less small form factor keyboards...
BTW, I just preordered from beNippon and they are now no longer accepting preorders for this board. Looks like they had a preorder reservation limit that they just hit.
Out of curiosity, who here preordered through beNippon??
I ordered one :P
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Quick semi-offtopic question... are there any boards that are cheaply available in the US that use Cherry browns?
I'd order one of these, except I don't know if I'd like the keyswitches, don't feel like doing surgery to convert them to blues (which I also don't know if I'd like that much,) and don't want to pay that much for a keyboard that I don't know that I'd like. (I didn't even pay that much for my EnduraPro, and I KNEW I'd like it.)
(OK, it'd be ideal if it had a pointing device built in, but...)
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Quick semi-offtopic question... are there any boards that are cheaply available in the US that use Cherry browns?
I'd order one of these, except I don't know if I'd like the keyswitches, don't feel like doing surgery to convert them to blues (which I also don't know if I'd like that much,) and don't want to pay that much for a keyboard that I don't know that I'd like. (I didn't even pay that much for my EnduraPro, and I KNEW I'd like it.)
(OK, it'd be ideal if it had a pointing device built in, but...)
Cheaply made... nope. That's exactly why we order them from japan :P. I understand that the kinesis advantage uses brown switches, but it's a ergo board and it isn't cheap.
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Well, it's 7/4 and these 'boards are now, indeed, on the market.
According to an email this morning from beNippon, mine has already been shipped.
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I have never liked Cherry blacks, that was a joke. But then again the browns aren't my thing either, but since the Topre is going to cost three times as much, this Filco is a wise buy.
Topre?
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Received my Filco "mini" today. Typing on it now.
First impressions...
The browns (at least on this keyboard) are a joy to type on. Light tactile feedback (just enough IMHO) and non-clicky. Would be perfectly acceptable in a noise-sensitive environment.
The resistance is similar to the HHKB Pros, but this keyboard is much smoother (aside from the tactile "catch" which, as I mentioned above, is just enough feedback). Frankly, this keyboard is addicting...I don't want to stop typing on it.
I do, however, miss the combo function keys on the HHKB (primarily, the volume controls). But having the separate arrow keys is nice for an ocassional game of Frozen Bubble. ;)
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Pictures please :P
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Pictures please :P
Check the sticky keyboard pics thread here (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=290&page=6). ;)
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The Filco mini is quite a bit heavier than I was expecting. No chance of this thing sliding around. At 14" x just-over-5", it is quite portable (compared to something l like the Model M mini...which you definitely wouldn't want to lug around).
This is about as small as you could reasonably get with "standard" IBM layout, sans numpad without making compromises. It does make one appreciate how very much can be done with the still-significantly-smaller HHKB Pro's. (at 11.5" x just-over-4")
As mentioned before, I think it is funny that the things I miss from the HHKB Pro (while using the Filco mini) have nothing to do with the HHKB's size:
- built-in hub
- detachable USB cable
- multi-media combo function keys
If nothing else, the Filco mini makes me wish I could get a HHKB Pro with cherry keyswitches and a separate set of arrow keys (like the Lite 2).
Did I mention these browns are NICE??? ;)
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Sorry to bump this thread. Does anyone know when these things will be available again in quantity?
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Sorry to bump this thread. Does anyone know when these things will be available again in quantity?
Have you emailed beNippon at all?
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I thought someone here already knew the dates, but i'll give them a buzz and see what happens.
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I thought someone here already knew the dates, but i'll give them a buzz and see what happens.
July 4th was the date that they were released (and I believe mine shipped that same day).
As to why beNippon isn't making more of them available for sale at this time, I have no idea. It could simply be that they need reminding to change the status of the item on their webpage.
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I emailed them and was informed that the release of this keyboard was such a success that the manufacturer was unable to meet the demand, hence they were sold out. They'll be back indefinitely....
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I emailed them and was informed that the release of this keyboard was such a success that the manufacturer was unable to meet the demand, hence they were sold out. They'll be back indefinitely....
Wow. I feel quite fortunate to get one when I did. ;)
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This is what I heard back from beNippon:
Hello,
Yes, this keyboard is much more popular than we thought it would be, so
our stocks has been soldout in hours! Unfortunately, today the manufacturer
no longer accepts orders as they are also facing too much request
for it.
I hope that in two or three months the situation will have became normal
again, but as we have no official notification on this, I cannot be
sure.
Sorry.
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We should be looking on the bright side here - with something like this happening, all the other companies that care about their market share are going to see this and realize there is a real desire for a) high quality keyboards, and b) the space saver design. We should see similar keyboards being released in the nearish future.
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I received a similar reply. While there's a small chance that manufacturers will realise there's a need for higher-quality keyboards, Japan is a long long way from Europe. I don't suppose a small group of enthusiasts will change things all that much on a global scale. I reckon it's a cultural difference as much as anything else. Things are so cheap now in the UK that it sickens me. I just know that, say, a portable CD player for £7 is going to be crap and break and it's not worth getting. But most people just see a price tag and think "bargain". It's the same with a lot of products nowadays.
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I received a similar reply. While there's a small chance that manufacturers will realise there's a need for higher-quality keyboards, Japan is a long long way from Europe. I don't suppose a small group of enthusiasts will change things all that much on a global scale. I reckon it's a cultural difference as much as anything else. Things are so cheap now in the UK that it sickens me. I just know that, say, a portable CD player for £7 is going to be crap and break and it's not worth getting. But most people just see a price tag and think "bargain". It's the same with a lot of products nowadays.
Fortunately, there are keyboards available (just not conveniently located). That's where I think this community can help out. If there is something that can be gotten in the US that is not reasonably available in Europe (or elsewhere), let the geekhack community know (or PM me directly). I have facilitated several purchases and know others here would be willing to do so as well.
We may not be able to shape the keyboard market...but at least we can help put quality keyboards in each others' hands.
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You know, could someone forward that e-mail from beNippon over to Unicomp, to tell them that there's demand for spacesavers? ;)