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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 02:08:46

Title: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 02:08:46: I've been using a Leopold with Cherry Browns for a year or two and love it, but it's time I try a RealForce from EK. I just have to decide on the weighting to go with.

I'd really appreciate opinions on whether to go with a variable or with a 45g-uniform.

I run a small business and am typing a great deal. I'm a pretty fast touch-typist. I find the weight and overall feel of the Browns to be pretty close to the sweet spot for me -- but still can't resist trying a Topre.

I wouldn't want to go any firmer than the Browns (and sometimes feel I could handle a tiny bit lighter at times). As a reference, I totally don't like UniComp SpaceSaver buckling springs, which I found far too heavy.

I need a numpad for sometimes doing credit card input, so if I go 45g it will mean a separate numpad since 45g only comes in tenkeyless, which really is perfectly fine and isn't a deciding factor one way or the other (well, it gets about 5% consideration).

Thanks!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: flacman on Sat, 08 June 2013, 05:24:29: Variable Realforce keyboards feel alright; though they can feel mushy at times. I had a friend loan one to me for a while, but I ended up using my HHKB as a daily driver.

Since you're trying to make a decision between variable or uniform 45g, I'd pitch for the uniform model because I prefer the 45g springs on my HHKB.

Have you considered the Leopold FC660C?
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: insilica on Sat, 08 June 2013, 08:39:37: Give your left and right pinky a rest, go variable :D.

I love my variable but have recently opted for an FC660C to take to work.

How often are you punching number in? If it's all the time get a standard size board otherwise a numbad to pull aside will do :D.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: ValerieV on Sat, 08 June 2013, 08:42:47: The 45g on the Realforce feels much more mushy than the 45g on the HHKB. I have read a lot of posts on this site saying that the 55g Realforce (universal) is the best. I would go with that one. I had the Realforce 45g and was disappointed with it. Just out of curiosity, why aren't you trying the Leopold topre? it is a lot cheaper but still very good. I feel the Realforce is overpriced and overrated.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: take on Sat, 08 June 2013, 09:50:07: i have a 55g, but it's not nearly as heavy as you would assume it to be. i've also heard through various sources that the 45g feels lighter than other 45g switches.

if you're using it strictly for work/typing and you're a touch typist, the variable might be best. i went with the 55g as i do quite a bit of gaming as well, and i love it. :D
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: fatmav on Sat, 08 June 2013, 15:47:42: I have a 55g uniform at work and I have noticed that sometimes my right pinky can press the Enter twice when I meant to do it once. Thus, to me, 55g is too soft already. My colleague has a 45g variable (silent), and I notice I have to consciously lift my left pinky when I type 'a' or else it will fire the key a variable number of times. Both of us agree with the wisdom that a 45g Topre feels a bit softer than a Cherry brown (which is also rated at 45g), and a 55g Topre definitely feels heavier. However, the former could be due to the key caps on Topre being a tiny bit heavier than the ones we have on our Cherry keyboards (Filco).

Just another data point for you.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:15:56: I appreciate the responses.

Space is not a concern for me at all. I built a custom-made shelf for the keyboard and mouse:

(http://www.silver100.com/x/misc/IMG_0714.jpg)

(http://www.silver100.com/x/misc/IMG_0712.jpg)

Cost is also not an issue. It's my primary business tool besides my smartphone.

I'll be staying with a full-sized keyboard, with the only caveat being that if I go with a RealForce 87U I'll be adding the separate numpad, which is fine (it will be literally glued down to the desk, as is the keyboard).

I’m pretty sure I'm still just trying to choose between a RealForce variable full-sized 104 and a 45g-uniform (which only comes tenkeyless) with a separate numpad added (which, by the way, is 45g-uniform).

I'm also a bit motivated by the keycaps on the RealForce. I understand they're top grade. I currently have a Leopold 104 with Cherry Browns and also a Cherry Browns 104 from WASD and the lettering on the keys on the latter has worn off twice. (I'll be going with a white RealForce. I always preferred black keyboards but I'm well aware that a black RealForce is virtually unreadable in moderate lighting if one is tired, and I do still rely on looking at the lettering often enough for it to matter to me.)

As to the 55g, as I mentioned, I find the Cherry Browns to be just a tiny smidgeon on the firm side of my sweet spot. I'm under the impression that RealForce 45g is as close to that as I’ll get in a RealForce.

I know the RealForce variable is 45g on all keys except the pinky keys are 35g and the Escape is 55g.

As to sound, I like the sound level of the Browns and, if anything, could probably handle something a tad quieter.

By the way, my Cherry Browns have o-rings added, which reduces travel and sound and provides a softer landing. I find the Browns with the o-rings added to be a far superior typing experience than without them.

I'm wondering what's meant by saying the 45g or variable feels "mushy". I assume that means not enough weighting, correct? And, again, this is my area of inquiry and where I'm feeling my way, with the Browns being my only meaningful point of reference in terms of my personal experience (and the UniComp buckling springs being way too firm for me).

Thanks again!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Lbeuol on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:22:55: I'm pretty curious what is that thing to the left of the keyboard?
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:56:58: Quote from: Lbeuol on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:22:55
I'm pretty curious what is that thing to the left of the keyboard?

It's an X-Keys 24-key programmable keypad: http://piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php?gclid=CLr6hZvYnrcCFYVZ7AodBzwApg
(http://piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php?gclid=CLr6hZvYnrcCFYVZ7AodBzwApg)

(http://www.silver100.com/x/misc/IMG_0707.jpg)

(It comes with a variety of preprinted labels, and a template for inkjets. I made those labels you see myself, though.)

I wouldn't be without it. Common business tasks like copy-paste to move things from fields in one window to fields in another (making it “copy apptoggle mouseclick paste apptoggle mouse copy apptoggle mouseclick paste apptoggle...” and so on) is like playing the drums versus being a contortionist. Anything else you want is also programmable including macros for common keystroke input.

(Another amazing tool for working with multiple windows is WinSplit Revolution, a free windows management utility by a computer engineering professor. I also wouldn't be without this one. It blows away what comes with Windows 7. www.winsplit-revolution.com (http://www.winsplit-revolution.com))
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Reason on Sat, 08 June 2013, 18:06:20: I currently use cherry reds and cherry browns.. because I sold my realforce uniform 55g..
55g felt way too heavy and my fingers got tired pretty fast after 1 or 2 hours.
I used the keyboard for around 3 weeks to get used to it but I wasn't able to. ( maybe my fingers are just too weak lol )
so if you think cherry browns are on a bit of a firm side, I definitely think you should go for the 45g!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: fatmav on Sat, 08 June 2013, 20:59:24: Quote from: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:15:56
I'm wondering what's meant by saying the 45g or variable feels "mushy". I assume that means not enough weighting, correct? And, again, this is my area of inquiry and where I'm feeling my way, with the Browns being my only meaningful point of reference in terms of my personal experience (and the UniComp buckling springs being way too firm for me).

Smooth or mushy is really just a difference in word choice. In my experience, the "mushy" feeling refers to the lack of distinctive feedback during key presses. On a Topre, you get some tactile feedback at the beginning of the keystroke, but nothing during. If you have not tried Cherry Red/Black, then maybe you can try a piano key (just press it very slowly to not trigger the hammer).

Cherry Blue (and Green; but I have not tried Green) is quite the opposite. I really appreciate its crispness and like to use my Filco with Blue when I know no one is around the office. It actually helps me to relieve some work pressure. :P
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 00:48:57: I really appreciate all the feedback. Yet my core inquiry still remains. I guess few people have direct experience comparing the two specific boards I'm looking to choose between. Even still, any suggestions are appreciated that can help me choose between these two options:

A. RealForce tenkeyless 45g-uniform (to which I'll add a numpad to the side so it's essentially the same as a full-sized 45g-uniform would be, since the 45g-uniform keyboard isn't available in a full-sized).

OR

B. RealForce 104 full-sized with the variable weights (most keys are 45g but pinky keys are 35g).
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Rule16 on Sun, 09 June 2013, 00:52:44: Quote from: ValerieV on Sat, 08 June 2013, 08:42:47
The 45g on the Realforce feels much more mushy than the 45g on the HHKB. I have read a lot of posts on this site saying that the 55g Realforce (universal) is the best. I would go with that one. I had the Realforce 45g and was disappointed with it. Just out of curiosity, why aren't you trying the Leopold topre? it is a lot cheaper but still very good. I feel the Realforce is overpriced and overrated.
Lol? It was the cheaper option for a long time.
To the OP: Go 55g, its pretty great :)
EDIT: Missed the fact that 55g will be too heavy... I say uniform because variable feels weird to type on.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: dante on Sun, 09 June 2013, 08:00:11: Quote from: Reason on Sat, 08 June 2013, 18:06:20
I currently use cherry reds and cherry browns.. because I sold my realforce uniform 55g..
55g felt way too heavy and my fingers got tired pretty fast after 1 or 2 hours.
I used the keyboard for around 3 weeks to get used to it but I wasn't able to. ( maybe my fingers are just too weak lol )
so if you think cherry browns are on a bit of a firm side, I definitely think you should go for the 45g!

Didn't you give up mechanicals for a Qsenn DT35 a while back?
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:11:32: 45g uniform is very nice just got one a week ago. I havent tried the veriable weight but I think it would probably feel a little weird.

The weight of the 45g uniform will be the same as the cherry brown with the tactile bump at the beginning of the keystoke rather than the middle. So if you are experienced with the browns I'd say the topre 45g will be a really nice keyboard for you.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:40:33: Quote from: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:11:32
45g uniform is very nice just got one a week ago. I havent tried the veriable weight but I think it would probably feel a little weird.

The weight of the 45g uniform will be the same as the cherry brown with the tactile bump at the beginning of the keystoke rather than the middle. So if you are experienced with the browns I'd say the topre 45g will be a really nice keyboard for you.

Thanks very much.

I was also myself thinking that a variable weight would probably feel a little weird (not to mention when hitting Ctrl-A vs Ctrl-V, for instance). I saw a review that said they even have noticeably different sounds, too. I did have a KeyTronic variable many years ago, though, that I was very happy with back then (until I knew better).

So, it seems that living with a separate numpad may be worth it to have consistent weighting throughout. (I wish RealForce had a 45g-uniform in a full-sized but it seems they just don't. At least, I know EK doesn't carry one.)

Out of curiosity, I know it's still too early to tell but so far how do you like the 45g-uniform compared to Browns? And is it a RealForce? (I've read that for some reason Topre keys on a RealForce feel different than on something else.)
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:53:24: Yes it is the Realforce i got it from EK. I really really like it. The first thing I noticed when I started using it was how SMOOTH the keystroke was comapred to the brown. The key caps have a lot less wobble than my cherry boards. And the PBT plastic feels really great. The whole keyboard feels very very high quality compared to anyting else I've tried.

Another good thing about the topre switch is that it is Quiet which is good for office settings, being on the phone while typing etc. I had a brown with dampeners at work for a while but the realforce is quieter and feels way better.

The only downside to the realforce would be when it comes to gaming, you cant really hover over the actuation point like you can with the browns because the tactile bump is at the beginning of the stroke.

Other than that I would say its much better than cherry brown, or any other cherry that I have tried (blue, red, black). Switch types I find come down to personal preference but I would say topre is closest to the cherry brown in my opinion.

Im currently using the Realforce at work because it is tenkeyless and more ergonomic for me when using a mouse (my arm dosent need to be so far out to the side).
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: longweight on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:59:53: Go silenced!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:03:37: Quote from: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:53:24
Yes it is the Realforce i got it from EK. I really really like it. The first thing I noticed when I started using it was how SMOOTH the keystroke was comapred to the brown. The key caps have a lot less wobble than my cherry boards. And the PBT plastic feels really great. The whole keyboard feels very very high quality compared to anyting else I've tried.

Another good thing about the topre switch is that it is Quiet which is good for office settings, being on the phone while typing etc. I had a brown with dampeners at work for a while but the realforce is quieter and feels way better.

The only downside to the realforce would be when it comes to gaming, you cant really hover over the actuation point like you can with the browns because the tactile bump is at the beginning of the stroke.

Other than that I would say its much better than cherry brown, or any other cherry that I have tried (blue, red, black). Switch types I find come down to personal preference but I would say topre is closest to the cherry brown in my opinion.

Im currently using the Realforce at work because it is tenkeyless and more ergonomic for me when using a mouse (my arm dosent need to be so far out to the side).

Awesome! Really good to hear!

I also feel that a little quieter than Browns would be preferable, so that's interesting that you say that. I have my Browns dampened with o-rings and still could handle quieter for those times I'm typing when on the phone. I've considered a Topre 87U "silent", too, for that reason, though it only comes in variable.

I think I may even try to use the separate numpad "away" from the keyboard and put the mouse there instead. I never used a tenkeyless so I'm totally used to the mouse being far to my right, but the prospect of bringing it closer does seem worth trying out -- if I can live with the keypad being in an entirely different location than where I'm used to having it. At least with an 87U and the separate keypad, I have the options to try out.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:15:07: Quote from: longweight on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:59:53
Go silenced!

Great. Totally not what I wanted to hear (pun intended). I have been avoiding the temptation of adding the silent version into my list of options. And now you have me seriously wondering...

Do you own one? If so, how does it compare to other boards you've had (have you had Browns or a Topre regular)?

I'm told the "silent" isn't really even close to totally silent, but that it is considerably quieter.

It might be nice to not only be heard less while typing when on the phone, but I'm guessing that from a Taoist/Zen/NLP/enlightened consciousness point of view, all that clacking all day may be grating on the nerves at a level we don't consciously realize but that causes us to end up a little more stressed at the end of the day than we might otherwise be. Just a thought. (Maybe someday someone can do a formal clinical study on that. Meanwhile, until further notice, I'm blaming my aggressive outbursts on the sound of my keyboard.)

Seriously, though, there may be a lot to be said for the silent version, for both reasons I mentioned. And what about the downside of less auditory feedback? I mean, I love the Browns and they seem plenty loud to me (I sure don't feel the need to go to Blues) -- though I type fast and hard and will probably get auditory feedback from the silent ones anyway.

What do you think? Any chance you can elaborate on your provocative suggestion right when I thought I had settled in on a decision? :)

Anyone else have experience with it and and opinion, please?

Thanks again!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:28:25: Quote from: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:15:07

Quote from: longweight on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:59:53
Go silenced!

Great. Totally not what I wanted to hear (pun intended). I have been avoiding the temptation of adding the silent version into my list of options. And now you have me seriously wondering...

Do you own one? If so, how does it compare to other boards you've had (have you had Browns or a Topre regular)?

I'm told the "silent" isn't really even close to totally silent, but that it is considerably quieter.

It might be nice to not only be heard less while typing when on the phone, but I'm guessing that from a Taoist/Zen/NLP/enlightened consciousness point of view, all that clacking all day may be grating on the nerves at a level we don't consciously realize but that causes us to end up a little more stressed at the end of the day than we might otherwise be. Just a thought. (Maybe someday someone can do a formal clinical study on that. Meanwhile, until further notice, I'm blaming my aggressive outbursts on the sound of my keyboard.)

Seriously, though, there may be a lot to be said for the silent version, for both reasons I mentioned. And what about the downside of less auditory feedback? I mean, I love the Browns and they seem plenty loud to me (I sure don't feel the need to go to Blues) -- though I type fast and hard and will probably get auditory feedback from the silent ones anyway.

What do you think? Any chance you can elaborate on your provocative suggestion right when I thought I had settled in on a decision? :)

Anyone else have experience with it and and opinion, please?

Thanks again!

I don't know if there is really a reason to get the silenced version... The 45g is alredy super quiet, as quiet as a standard rubber dome.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: noons on Sun, 09 June 2013, 20:20:57: Quote from: Danule on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:28:25
Quote from: keyjay on Sun, 09 June 2013, 16:15:07

Quote from: longweight on Sun, 09 June 2013, 15:59:53
Go silenced!

Great. Totally not what I wanted to hear (pun intended). I have been avoiding the temptation of adding the silent version into my list of options. And now you have me seriously wondering...

Do you own one? If so, how does it compare to other boards you've had (have you had Browns or a Topre regular)?

I'm told the "silent" isn't really even close to totally silent, but that it is considerably quieter.

It might be nice to not only be heard less while typing when on the phone, but I'm guessing that from a Taoist/Zen/NLP/enlightened consciousness point of view, all that clacking all day may be grating on the nerves at a level we don't consciously realize but that causes us to end up a little more stressed at the end of the day than we might otherwise be. Just a thought. (Maybe someday someone can do a formal clinical study on that. Meanwhile, until further notice, I'm blaming my aggressive outbursts on the sound of my keyboard.)

Seriously, though, there may be a lot to be said for the silent version, for both reasons I mentioned. And what about the downside of less auditory feedback? I mean, I love the Browns and they seem plenty loud to me (I sure don't feel the need to go to Blues) -- though I type fast and hard and will probably get auditory feedback from the silent ones anyway.

What do you think? Any chance you can elaborate on your provocative suggestion right when I thought I had settled in on a decision? :)

Anyone else have experience with it and and opinion, please?

Thanks again!

I don't know if there is really a reason to get the silenced version... The 45g is alredy super quiet, as quiet as a standard rubber dome.

I agree the regular torpe are very silent, I kind of feel like the silent is more of a gimmick. Also I would just like to add that I love my 45g weight torpe. Don't know if I would actually like the variable I feel like the keys that would need them the most (modifiers) are only 45 grams so to me there is no real benefit. Also I dont know how I would feel gaming on one as I constantly use the wasd keys.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: dante on Sun, 09 June 2013, 21:09:34: I don't think the silent version is a gimmick: I just think you've forgotten how quiet Topre is against Cherry/Buckling spring. Regular (quiet) Topre still makes noise (especially 55g) but Silent Topre (going off youtube videos) makes nearly no noise in comparison. The Silent Topre even sounds more silent than some rubber domes!

I'm sure there are environments when keyboards need to be as silent as possible and that's where that model fits in. It's still unfortunate you can't purchase a 45g uniform with that technology as I think they could sell more units.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Rule16 on Tue, 11 June 2013, 22:29:08: The silent models are also supposed to feel different as well.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Wildcard on Tue, 11 June 2013, 23:55:02: Ok, so this is my breakdown of both the variable and 45g uniform RF models. People who prefer firmer switches (i.e. mx blacks, greens, etc) will want 55g. Those who like mx browns or mx blues (my personal favorite) prefer 45g. The comparison of the RF to HHKB isn't apples to apples because the HHKB is actually a little bit more firm (approx 50g), and uses a very unique layout which obviously takes a bit more getting use too because as a touch-typist you'll have to adjust your muscle memory a little compared to your typical 88-104 ANSI layout.

The RF variable to uniform comparison is an easy one to make because most of the keys are still 45g, however the "weaker" fingers get a break with lighter keys.

[attachimg=1]

As a touch-typist who doesn't really use the home row often, and has slight nerve damage in both hands I found the variable to be a problem because of a higher chance of accidental key presses of the 35g keys (I even have this issue with linear non-tactile MX reds). Other then that, it's a really great design as it's intended to reduce typing fatigue during long runs.

Those saying the variable is mushy have no idea what they're talking about, because this really makes no sense.

Regarding silent vs non-silent. The silent models use simple foam dampers installed in the inside to quiet the upstroke. They do reduce noise, but IMO, the Realforce keyboards are no louder then your average keyboard. The HHKB type-s is supposedly a little more solid in the keystrokes.

I really like the TKL RF, as it brings the mouse closer to the board. If you don't use the number pad often, you'd be better off just using a separate MX keypad or even finding one of the matching RF keypads.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: anticorrelator on Wed, 12 June 2013, 00:19:07: I definitely felt that 55g was too heavy for me for long typing/gaming sessions. I never feel tired using the 45g or hhkb however.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 00:41:13: That graphic is very helpful... though I'm confused since the specs on the Elite Keyboards website say the TKLs are "30, 45 and 55" and the 104 is "35, 45 and 55". (I only looked at the white RFs.)
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Wildcard on Wed, 12 June 2013, 02:22:21: That's considered the "official" key weight diagram. I'm not sure if that means tested or Topre official. The 55g weight is for the ESC key, so the numbers aren't that far off.

Here's a good breakdown of the Realforce http://imgur.com/a/eI8Il#0 (http://imgur.com/a/eI8Il#0)
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: eth0s on Wed, 12 June 2013, 02:33:19: Quote from: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 00:41:13
That graphic is very helpful... though I'm confused since the specs on the Elite Keyboards website say the TKLs are "30, 45 and 55" and the 104 is "35, 45 and 55". (I only looked at the white RFs.)

Hmm, that is weird, that the 104 has 35g pinkies, and the 87U has 30g pinkies. I hope that's just a misprint, 'cuz now I might have to buy another keyboard.

If you have your own cut and paste shortcut board, it seems to me that you do a lot of typing. If that is the case then definitely get the variable silent. It is the best keyboard for volume typing bar none. If you need a number pad for work, I think you should get the 104, although you can always get the separate number pad. The 87U really is the best for typing and mousing, since your hands don't have to travel as far.

The best advice I can give you is this: If the keyboard will be your main business tool, then you should not hesitate to get the best. First it is a business cost and comes off your taxes. Second, getting the best might mean getting two keyboards and checking them both out: a variable silent and a 45g. You won't be able to return them to EK brian (unless there is a defect of course), but you can sell the one you don't like on geekhack. It is guaranteed that somebody will definitely buy the one you don't want, but they may want you to take 10% or so off the retail price that you paid. But ultimately, a 10% hit is nothing compared to the increased money you will make from a great keyboard that makes you happy every time you sit down to work on it.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Wildcard on Wed, 12 June 2013, 02:42:36: They're both great boards. You're already familiar with a uniform board, but if you want to try something new in the off chance you might like it, go the variable route.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 12:53:28: Really, really appreciate all the feedback and advice.

I may have to buy all three variations and try them.

I'm currently looking at these minor considerations in addition to the obvious ones:

- the choices for a silent or a 45g-uniform are appealing, yet a separate numpad may be a tiny bit awkward; I imagine I'll be locking it in place, so the mouse being closer won't be likely... but I'll have to try and play with it to see; until I get a TKL and separate numpad, I won’t be able to experiment with this

- if I get a silent TKL the separate numpad will be, well, louder (yes, I'm sensitive to annoying little distractions like that when I'm working)

- significantly, as shown at that link in #27 above, Ripster did a mod to change the A and ; keys from 35g to 45g and said, "Ah, that's better", and, well, he is the Rip Man so that's maybe a little something to consider right there; I'm sure he could have gotten a 45g-uniform, so maybe he liked the other keys being lighter and this was just a tweak, or maybe he just did this for those people who were finding it to be an issue; I don’t imagine I’ll have an issue with it if most people don’t (I have certainly looked up to see long rows of aaaaa’s and ;;;;;;;;;’s on the screen in the past, but that’s only when I was still there working for more than 24 hours straight and my head almost hit the keyboard while nodding out; so I assume I’ll just have to get ample sleep to use a variable, that’s all)

BTW, I totally agree with the value of "the increased money you will make from a great keyboard that makes you happy every time you sit down to work on it."

Which I guess supports the argument for buying all three variations and trying them.

Thanks again!
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Wildcard on Wed, 12 June 2013, 14:08:09: One last comment, have you seen the new 104 key Realforce boards on EK? Link to EK (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100)

"This specialty Realforce has the same layout as the standard 104U (XF11T0), but implements high-profile cupped keycaps and a uniform 45 gram weighted layout. The High-Profile Realforce's specially designed high-profile cupped keycaps complement professional data-entry applications by preventing finger slips and reducing hand travel away from the home row."

If in the end you decide you don't want this key set I'd be willing to swap you with a new set so I can try them out.

I'd say this and a "silent" mod here'ish (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0) might get you what you're after.

If someone can find the link to the topre mod where they cut out o-rings from a sheet of rubber/foam this is more the "silent" mod I was after.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 14:15:25: Quote from: Wildcard on Wed, 12 June 2013, 14:08:09
Have you seen the new 104 key Realforce boards on EK?

http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100 (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rf104&pid=yk2100)

"This specialty Realforce has the same layout as the standard 104U (XF11T0), but implements high-profile cupped keycaps and a uniform 45 gram weighted layout. The High-Profile Realforce's specially designed high-profile cupped keycaps complement professional data-entry applications by preventing finger slips and reducing hand travel away from the home row."

If in the end you decide you don't want this key set I'd be willing to swap you with a new set so I can try them out.

I'd say this and a"silent" mod http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0) might get you what you're after.

If someone can find the link to the topre mod where they cut out o-rings from a sheet of rubber this is more the "silent" mod I was after.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I spoke to Brian at Elite Keyboards a few months ago about this new 104 RealForce with high-profile cupped keycaps and he advised against my getting it. If I understood him correctly, what I believe he said, in essence, is that it's really not for fast touch-typists that do a great deal of typing throughout the day, but that it's really primarily intended for data entry where accuracy matters more than speed and comfort.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 12 June 2013, 17:01:11: Quote from: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 12:53:28
I may have to buy all three variations and try them.

The true Geekhack spirit ;)
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 17:38:31: Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 12 June 2013, 17:01:11
Quote from: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 12:53:28
I may have to buy all three variations and try them.

The true Geekhack spirit ;)

Of course, if a fellow Geekhacker with incredible experience like, oh, say, someone with more than 3,500 posts, cared to recommend which one to try first, one might find they were so happy they didn't need to look any further.

I'm just sayin. ;)

I realize you may not have direct experience with any of the boards in question, let alone all of the variations, but if you've been reading the thread I'm prepared to start with your opinion and even your "intuition" at this point.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 12 June 2013, 17:55:56: I have never tried a Topre board and own none :(

A variable may be good for straight touch-typing.

Uniform would be better for chaotic typing or gaming (where uniform WASD would be important).

Although I can touch-type, I generally do not, as most of my typing is programming (forum posts excepted). Plus games. So if I was going to get a RealForce I would go uniform.

Which is a shame as a local vendor has variable RealForce TKL for $179.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:05:51: Quote from: rowdy on Wed, 12 June 2013, 17:55:56
I have never tried a Topre board and own none :(

A variable may be good for straight touch-typing.

Uniform would be better for chaotic typing or gaming (where uniform WASD would be important).

Although I can touch-type, I generally do not, as most of my typing is programming (forum posts excepted). Plus games. So if I was going to get a RealForce I would go uniform.

Which is a shame as a local vendor has variable RealForce TKL for $179.

Thanks.

Maybe this is the universe channeling through you to tell me to try a uniform first.

Which happens to be what Brian of EK suggested I try first.

And I just realized that at least that way I know I can't be disappointed or unhappy with it. Then I can go from there and try the variables as time and budget allow.

Wow! A logical decision I feel totally clear about... based on intution and channeling. How cool is that!

Thanks again, to all.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 12 June 2013, 21:39:40: Quote from: keyjay on Wed, 12 June 2013, 18:05:51
Thanks.

Maybe this is the universe channeling through you to tell me to try a uniform first.

Which happens to be what Brian of EK suggested I try first.

And I just realized that at least that way I know I can't be disappointed or unhappy with it. Then I can go from there and try the variables as time and budget allow.

Wow! A logical decision I feel totally clear about... based on intution and channeling. How cool is that!

Thanks again, to all.

Hopefully you will be happy with your purchase :)

Please let us know what you think once you have used it.

And as someone said regarding Topre, actually use it, and allow yourself to become accustomed to it, over a couple of weeks. Only after that try going back to MX or RD and see what you think.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Folio on Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:50:04: Hey keyjay, just this week I got the same thing you're about to get and I was also stuck on if I should get the variable or the uniform. I got the uniform 45g TKL white and the separate numpad. I got the 45g mainly because people have said the "A" key on the variable can get accidentally pushed down without you even noticing cause it's so light. I think the uniform weighting is uncomplicated and feels amazing and will without a doubt make you happy you bought it.

I used a WASD keyboard with Cherry MX Blues before buying a Topre and the feeling is definitely more SOLID. I typed a whole 20 WPM faster than my average within an hour of having it. And since the actuation point is near the beginning of the stroke instead of in the middle like a brown or blue switch, it gives it that satisfying "full" feeling when you're typing. It just feels a lot more solid instead of shaky like a brown or blue switch. You'll know what I mean when you get it.

I feel like going from a brown to a 45g uniform would feel a lot more comfortable and familiar for you instead of going to a variable because the brown switches are already pretty light. It's really comfortable for me.

One thing you should take note of: the numpad which is advertised as 45g does not have the same tactility as the 87U 45g. It feels a bit lighter. Weird I know, but it's not like you're gonna be using it ALL the time. It's sufficient and definitely better than other numpads however. One thing you can try to get a feel for the RF Topre is by using an older model Lenovo laptop keyboard. When I was getting more used to the RF Topre, it felt like I was using a Lenovo laptop only with more "thock" and weight in the keys (tactility), but overall, it's kinda like that.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: longweight on Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:50:58: Just received my variable silenced.

Definitely the nicest keyboard that I have ever typed on.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: Folio on Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:53:20: Also, you'll feel a lot less shoulder strain when using a TKL from a full 104. I tried putting my mouse back to where it used to be when I had a 104 key layout and I definitely felt my muscles tensing to hold the extra weight. The numpad definitely goes better on the right of my mouse.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Thu, 13 June 2013, 22:22:45: Quote from: Folio on Thu, 13 June 2013, 13:53:20
Also, you'll feel a lot less shoulder strain when using a TKL from a full 104. I tried putting my mouse back to where it used to be when I had a 104 key layout and I definitely felt my muscles tensing to hold the extra weight. The numpad definitely goes better on the right of my mouse.

It would be quite a change of habit and muscle memory for me, but it does seem worth trying since I certainly do use the mouse a heck of a lot more frequently than I use the numpad. And it never occurred to me to try locking down the numpad to the right of the mouse. That's something I'm gonna try out.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 13 June 2013, 23:09:32: I use the numpad occasionally at work, but for the last week or so I am using one of my TKL keyboards instead, and apart from occasionally going for the numpad and finding nothing there, the experience is overwhelmingly positive.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: keyjay on Thu, 13 June 2013, 23:12:49: Quote from: rowdy on Thu, 13 June 2013, 23:09:32
I use the numpad occasionally at work, but for the last week or so I am using one of my TKL keyboards instead, and apart from occasionally going for the numpad and finding nothing there, the experience is overwhelmingly positive.

What experience specifically is it that you're finding positive?
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 13 June 2013, 23:40:59: A smaller keyboard allows the mouse to sit closer, which is causing my right arm to ache less.

The desk looks less cluttered.

I have a sort of keyboard tray that normally sits flush with the desk surface, but with the fullsize keyboard the mouse always seems to travel over the gap between tray and desk, causing the pointer to jump.

Er, that's pretty much it, really. Cherry MX blacks on the TKL compared to blues on the fullsize, but that is not really relevant.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: SpAmRaY on Mon, 22 July 2013, 08:51:17: Quote from: keyjay on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:56:58
Quote from: Lbeuol on Sat, 08 June 2013, 16:22:55
I'm pretty curious what is that thing to the left of the keyboard?

It's an X-Keys 24-key programmable keypad: http://piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php?gclid=CLr6hZvYnrcCFYVZ7AodBzwApg
(http://piengineering.com/xkeys/xk24.php?gclid=CLr6hZvYnrcCFYVZ7AodBzwApg)

Show Image
(http://www.silver100.com/x/misc/IMG_0707.jpg)

(It comes with a variety of preprinted labels, and a template for inkjets. I made those labels you see myself, though.)

I wouldn't be without it. Common business tasks like copy-paste to move things from fields in one window to fields in another (making it “copy apptoggle mouseclick paste apptoggle mouse copy apptoggle mouseclick paste apptoggle...” and so on) is like playing the drums versus being a contortionist. Anything else you want is also programmable including macros for common keystroke input.

(Another amazing tool for working with multiple windows is WinSplit Revolution, a free windows management utility by a computer engineering professor. I also wouldn't be without this one. It blows away what comes with Windows 7. www.winsplit-revolution.com (http://www.winsplit-revolution.com))

That's really cool, thanks for sharing the link. I noticed they have some cherry compatible keycaps and blockers.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: dante on Mon, 11 November 2013, 22:09:06: Regarding the silenced model:

I get the impression from several reviews that the stabilized keys (particularly the space bar) are louder than the rest of the board; But also that Topre may have not silence modded those keys at all. Is this true?

I had a Logitech Illuminated membrane that was dead silent except for the rattly space bar which drove me ape **** after a week.
Title: Re: RealForce variable or 45g-uniform
Post by: czarek on Tue, 12 November 2013, 01:35:05: I don't know about variable, couldn't dear to get one after having HHKB and uniform 45G RealForce - they're not uniform at all. Some keys feel noticeably lighter than the others. At first I thought it was the wear of my HHKB which I have for years but my RF was brand new and it was so inconsistent I just couldn't live with it...