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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: tp4tissue on Sat, 08 June 2013, 06:33:18
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The surface is significantly smaller, much harder to type on, it makes the keys feel like they're further apart.
A large time saver for fast typing is using the near corners of the key cap so that you don't have to reach as far. :blank:
DSA does however make a much better ergo dox spacebar than dcs though..
//stern look >:D
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Did you get the DCS set for the ErgoDox? I've been thinking of using DCS for the main area and DSA for the thumb clusters.
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This is one of the rare times where i agree with tp4tissue 's viewpoint
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It might also work the other way, though-- if you're prone to typos involving striking multiple keys, having the active areas seperated may prevent some errors.
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Did you get the DCS set for the ErgoDox? I've been thinking of using DCS for the main area and DSA for the thumb clusters.
Eya I got both. Because I knew that the spacebar should be flatter for quick traverse between other thumb cluster keys, while with the DCS the bar is too slope.
It might also work the other way, though-- if you're prone to typos involving striking multiple keys, having the active areas seperated may prevent some errors.
You can increase your precision with practice, But that would never make the keys bigger. So at best one could only say that the DSA set makes a good trainer keycap
However, this would then also fall apart because who the hell needs to spend $50 just to Temporarily reduce errors while they learn to type, then never use those caps again.
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You can increase your precision with practice, But that would never make the keys bigger. So at best one could only say that the DSA set makes a good trainer keycap
However, this would then also fall apart because who the hell needs to spend $50 just to Temporarily reduce errors while they learn to type, then never use those caps again.
Unless you're a crappy typist and your precision never increases.
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You can increase your precision with practice, But that would never make the keys bigger. So at best one could only say that the DSA set makes a good trainer keycap
However, this would then also fall apart because who the hell needs to spend $50 just to Temporarily reduce errors while they learn to type, then never use those caps again.
Unless you're a crappy typist and your precision never increases.
okokok, I guess I'm forgoing the condition that if you are severely keyboard handicapped, You may forever need DSA as a crutch??
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I like DSA keycaps. Both the retro set and the ones on my incomplete ErgoDox are great imo.
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Interesting. Here are the Signature Plastics specs sheets for DSA (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DSAFamily.pdf) and DCS (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf). The DSA top surface area is 0.500" x 0.500" (0.250 in2) and the DCS top surface area is 0.470" x 0.557" (0.262 in2). 0.012 in2 doesn't sound like very much of a change in total surface area. So it's probably the larger vertical dimension difference causing the problem - the DSA should actually be closer together horizontally.
FYI If you want to get rid of any of your DSA retro kits (especially a num pad), let me know as I missed out on the buy... :) :)
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Did you get the DCS set for the ErgoDox? I've been thinking of using DCS for the main area and DSA for the thumb clusters.
that's exactly what i did originally with my ergo dox and it worked well
SP Doubleshot white on black DCS plus the blank DSA ergodox set
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3708/8896909463_5070824c99.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8896909463/)
DSC_0462.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/panicfx/8896909463/) by almightyglod (http://www.flickr.com/people/panicfx/), on Flickr
it took me a couple days to get used to the dsa but now i don't notice a difference. i haven't tried the dsa set on a staggered normal keyboard like my poker yet. I imagine it must be weirder to adapt to than a matrix,.
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Interesting. Here are the Signature Plastics specs sheets for DSA (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DSAFamily.pdf) and DCS (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf). The DSA top surface area is 0.500" x 0.500" (0.250 in2) and the DCS top surface area is 0.470" x 0.557" (0.262 in2). 0.012 in2 doesn't sound like very much of a change in total surface area. So it's probably the larger vertical dimension difference causing the problem - the DSA should actually be closer together horizontally.
FYI If you want to get rid of any of your DSA retro kits (especially a num pad), let me know as I missed out on the buy... :) :)
the measurements on the dsa is wrong.. its only 7/16th according to my protractor at the widest part :p
so, the DCS is actually a whopper of 37.2% Biggah :eek:
Ontop of that with DCS You don't get the edge space because the spherical cap isn't as wide on the outskirt as it is in the middle.
So, i guestimate that the usable area could be up to 40% less on spherical DSA vs DCS.
THEREFORE DCS ftw??? :cool:
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Only on GeekHack...
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Only on GeekHack...
40% less usable surface area is pretty significant, there's an immediate improvement when I switched on DCS for my ergodox.
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Only on GeekHack...
40% less usable surface area is pretty significant, there's an immediate improvement when I switched on DCS for my ergodox.
SP square flat keycaps then? Max surface per key.
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Only on GeekHack...
40% less usable surface area is pretty significant, there's an immediate improvement when I switched on DCS for my ergodox.
SP square flat keycaps then? Max surface per key.
Hmmm... I haven't tried them, so I wouldn't rule it out, but.....
they may be too close... for angled keystrikes.
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your keyboard, your choice. but don't disregard the fact that most people would have been typing on dcs for at least a year or two and those on ergodox round 2/dsa retro had been using dsa for around 5 days to a month, tops?
I preferred dcs at first, having done the main area cherry profile, side buttons - dsa thing at first. But given some time with full dsa, I've since come to the conclusion that the profile (doesn't matter to me at least) in less than a week.
Besides, if you use formats like colemak and want a labelled layout without printing a custom set with wasdkeyboards, dsa is your best bet.
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Interesting. Here are the Signature Plastics specs sheets for DSA (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DSAFamily.pdf) and DCS (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf). The DSA top surface area is 0.500" x 0.500" (0.250 in2) and the DCS top surface area is 0.470" x 0.557" (0.262 in2). 0.012 in2 doesn't sound like very much of a change in total surface area. So it's probably the larger vertical dimension difference causing the problem - the DSA should actually be closer together horizontally.
FYI If you want to get rid of any of your DSA retro kits (especially a num pad), let me know as I missed out on the buy... :) :)
the measurements on the dsa is wrong.. its only 7/16th according to my protractor at the widest part :p
so, the DCS is actually a whopper of 37.2% Biggah :eek:
Ontop of that with DCS You don't get the edge space because the spherical cap isn't as wide on the outskirt as it is in the middle.
So, i guestimate that the usable area could be up to 40% less on spherical DSA vs DCS.
THEREFORE DCS ftw??? :cool:
If you're trying to be nitpicky and assign numbers, correct measurements are important. Are you measuring the distance at the greatest separation or the actual arc length along the key surface? I would measure surface lengths with flexible measuring tape, and then you'll need a more complicated formula for area calculation--for the cyllindrical DSC profile keys and for the spherical DSA profile keys, because you are not dealing with flat rectangles but rather concave surfaces (which have larger surface area than flat surfaces with the same boundaries).
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Interesting. Here are the Signature Plastics specs sheets for DSA (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DSAFamily.pdf) and DCS (http://www.solutionsinplastic.com/pdfs/DCSFamily.pdf). The DSA top surface area is 0.500" x 0.500" (0.250 in2) and the DCS top surface area is 0.470" x 0.557" (0.262 in2). 0.012 in2 doesn't sound like very much of a change in total surface area. So it's probably the larger vertical dimension difference causing the problem - the DSA should actually be closer together horizontally.
FYI If you want to get rid of any of your DSA retro kits (especially a num pad), let me know as I missed out on the buy... :) :)
the measurements on the dsa is wrong.. its only 7/16th according to my protractor at the widest part :p
so, the DCS is actually a whopper of 37.2% Biggah :eek:
Ontop of that with DCS You don't get the edge space because the spherical cap isn't as wide on the outskirt as it is in the middle.
So, i guestimate that the usable area could be up to 40% less on spherical DSA vs DCS.
THEREFORE DCS ftw??? :cool:
If you're trying to be nitpicky and assign numbers, correct measurements are important. Are you measuring the distance at the greatest separation or the actual arc length along the key surface? I would measure surface lengths with flexible measuring tape, and then you'll need a more complicated formula for area calculation--for the cyllindrical DSC profile keys and for the spherical DSA profile keys, because you are not dealing with flat rectangles but rather concave surfaces (which have larger surface area than flat surfaces with the same boundaries).
the concavity is not relevant to the distance traversed between touching each key.. Only the horizontal plane at the very top matters, because that is closest reach I can make.
besides, the concavity here would not make up for 37% since both dcs and dsa are concave molded
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I've been using the DSA Retro set at work for about 3 weeks now and they feel great. I don't know if my accuracy is better or worse -- feels about the same. And they look awesome, so that's good enough for me. Now I'm curious to see (and hear from others) how the spherical GB from DT is working out. They look really high -- gotta arch those fingertips, LOL!
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I've been using the DSA Retro set at work for about 3 weeks now and they feel great. I don't know if my accuracy is better or worse -- feels about the same. And they look awesome, so that's good enough for me. Now I'm curious to see (and hear from others) how the spherical GB from DT is working out. They look really high -- gotta arch those fingertips, LOL!
DSA keycaps are kind of like high heels.. it sacrifices ergonomics, but like the retro DSA set, it's quite stylish.
Can you be as accurate? Of course, but, I just wanted to pointed out that to use DSA is like wearing high heels for your keyboard where one trades usability for "aesthetics".
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I'm not a great typist but I do a lot of coding and I find myself pretty productive on DSA.
we are probably talking about differences that only very fast typist can spot.
edit: that being said... we had enough DCS, luckily we have alternatives.
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I'm not a great typist but I do a lot of coding and I find myself pretty productive on DSA.
we are probably talking about differences that only very fast typist can spot.
edit: that being said... we had enough DCS, luckily we have alternatives.
Haha, I'm not super against DSA, just a mildly upset no one mentioned this issue in any reviews.
I certainly agree with you that this wouldn't get in the way of work related typing, unless you're a medical transcription-ist.
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I've been using the DSA Retro set at work for about 3 weeks now and they feel great. I don't know if my accuracy is better or worse -- feels about the same. And they look awesome, so that's good enough for me. Now I'm curious to see (and hear from others) how the spherical GB from DT is working out. They look really high -- gotta arch those fingertips, LOL!
DSA keycaps are kind of like high heels.. it sacrifices ergonomics, but like the retro DSA set, it's quite stylish.
Can you be as accurate? Of course, but, I just wanted to pointed out that to use DSA is like wearing high heels for your keyboard where one trades usability for "aesthetics".
I don't really feel less accurate when typing on DSA -- it feels about the same to me. The keys are all in the same place, after all. I really haven't heard very many complaints about them. And the only set that currently uses them has the deep dish homing keys so, no worries.
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I've been using DSA caps on one of my boards since October last year, and I love the hell out of the profile. Get mathematical all you want, but feel is king here.
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DSA keycaps are kind of like high heels.. it sacrifices ergonomics, but like the retro DSA set, it's quite stylish.
Can you be as accurate? Of course, but, I just wanted to pointed out that to use DSA is like wearing high heels for your keyboard where one trades usability for "aesthetics".
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I don't think DSA caps are less ergonomic. I don't find myself being more careful while typing. I think you might be the only person experiencing this, tp. You should try the flat keycaps out, as sam suggested; they would maximize the surface area you could touch. And if your surface area to aesthetics relationship holds, you'll have the ugliest, most ergonomic keyboard in history. :D
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I have tried Retro DSA on my Filco briefly, and I did not find it any more difficult to type on than standard OEM keycaps. I didn't like the hardness of the keys and the sound they made, but it made no practical difference for typing.
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I picked up a DSA retro set and got to try them today. They do feel different - mostly because the plane of the rows is flat, but I don't think they're any harder to use. Given that they seem to be the only reasonably priced only option for a truly custom keyboard design, I'm going to learn to like them (no matter what).
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I picked up a DSA retro set and got to try them today. They do feel different - mostly because the plane of the rows is flat, but I don't think they're any harder to use. Given that they seem to be the only reasonably priced only option for a truly custom keyboard design, I'm going to learn to like them (no matter what).
they are about the same distance from each other horizontally as DCS or OEM profile, The vertical distance is what really gets me. I was not used to moving my fingers so far up and down.
The reason behind designing the keys longer than they are wide is thus:
When you move your fingers from a fixed position you hit keys at an angle.. when you do this horizontally the angle is more extreme than when you do this vertically.
So this means you need more horizontal space such that you do not hit the adjacent key when moving your fingers left and right.
DSA breaks this and forces you into moving MORE vertically for no good reason.. which is why i am not such a fan of them.. it seems to be form without function...
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don't notice the difference now, seems the same to me :P
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don't notice the difference now, seems the same to me :P
if you're willing to experiment, stack the left hand side with regular dcs and the right with the dsa... and notice you have a much easier time reaching keys on one hand.
I did this when i was putting together my ergodox
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I have to bounce between my laptop (Macbook Air) keyboard, my work keyboard (Apple, same key profile as my laptop) and the mechanical keyboard on my own desktop. I find that DSA is an easier transition for my fingers somehow, I guess due the uniformity of the profile. I also like it aesthetically.
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old thread tp4 stiil about keyboard :))
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I feel an actual difference while typing with DSA compared with original cherry key caps. I do think that it is more related with the overall geometry, and surface roughness than only the top area. The rougher finish of DSA compared with the softer one of original cherries make a lot of difference. I ain't a fast typer, only an average one, but still I feel the difference. However, I will keep using DSA for the sake of aesthetics.
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DSA is okay, the flat profile is actually quite easy to type on once you get used to it, but the small keytop size and lack of curve are points which could make them awkward enough to not feel "right".
IMHO, sculptured SA profile comes close to being ideal, due to the slightly larger angled keytops, large mass and lack of steps between the keycap edges when changing rows. The curve creates a change in height and keytop angle that feels natural and the flat starting angle works well on a properly angled keyboard (close to flat).
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IMHO, sculptured SA profile comes close to being ideal, due to the slightly larger angled keytops, large mass and lack of steps between the keycap edges when changing rows. The curve creates a change in height and keytop angle that feels natural and the flat starting angle works well on a properly angled keyboard (close to flat).
Sounds great -- I would like to try SA sometime.
Wait, oh my god. This is how it happens. I bought my first mechanical keyboard a couple months ago, got a set of keycaps for it which I told myself at the time "ok, this is IT, you blow this $80, get the keyboard set up the way you want, and you're done". And now look, I'm already talking myself into spending more...