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geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: Exoverture on Mon, 10 June 2013, 18:47:42
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I've just put the ABS keys back on and for some reason it feels a lot better than the KBC engraved black PBT keys I got. The sound, the feel, and typing seems much more fluid.
Anyone else find this as well? And are other PBT keycaps better than the engraved set?
Would much prefer a lower profile, but not at the cost of a whole new mechanical keyboard.
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it feels a lot better than the KBC engraved black PBT keys I got. The sound, the feel, and typing seems much more fluid.
I think most would agree with you, but people on GH are usually comparing Thick Cherry PBT to Cherry ABS DS, not thin oem PBT to ABS ;)
PS - What kind of ABS? Cherry, SP, or OEM??
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I would generally agree.. I kinda like ABS more.
Sold nearly all my imsto thicks after getting GMK cherry sets but I think I'll regret it when the ABS start to shine and look like crap lol.
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lol I was in the same boat. I find ABS softer and more forgiving. PBT seems too harsh to me.
But I kept the imsto caps on cuz it looks really nice, and it's kind of growing on me now LOL.
I think on 1x1 keys stock ABS feels better. For larger keys with stabilizer bars, thick keys feels better (in this case imsto thick PBT). Kind of why I signed up to the Tai Hao thick ABS keycaps to test it out.
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it feels a lot better than the KBC engraved black PBT keys I got. The sound, the feel, and typing seems much more fluid.
I think most would agree with you, but people on GH are usually comparing Thick Cherry PBT to Cherry ABS DS, not thin oem PBT to ABS ;)
PS - What kind of ABS? Cherry, SP, or OEM??
OEM Filcos. I always made fun of the finish wearing off real quick (see: tons of pics on google), but it actually feels a lot nicer and I'm enjoying my keyboard much more again. It seems I don't know.. more quiet but also something else. Fluidity is better and it's a ton easier to not bottom out the keys.
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Someone on geekhack mentioned that the Ducky Backlit keycaps are the softest. Possibly because of clear ABS + the rubber spray on coating.
I will want to try that eventually on my Filco. I have a feeling you'll probably like that too.
EDIT: Oh I found the thread http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44507.0 :D
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Try some double-shot genuine Cherry keycaps. ABS, thick, sharp, and really nice feel.
And if you don't like the shine, don't take pictures with a close-up lens!
This post was composed on a keyboard containing double-shot ABS Red Alert alphas and thick Imsto PBT modifiers. This is sacrilege to many, but I think it provides a good blend of look and feel. (Amazingly, I have another keyboard with exactly the reverse!)
- Ron | samwisekoi
(http://www.samwisekoi.com/pixelart/Leo.png)
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POM > ABS > PBT
If you have tested each type thoroughly, you find that POM feels the best.
History(the material debate) repeats itself because no one listens...
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POM > ABS > PBT
If you have tested each type thoroughly, you find that POM feels the best.
History(the material debate) repeats itself because no one listens...
I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
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POM > ABS > PBT
If you have tested each type thoroughly, you find that POM feels the best.
History(the material debate) repeats itself because no one listens...
I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
Lol this^
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I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
If you're comparing Cherry PBT and Cherry POM, I would say they are on equally matched with different pros and cons.
If it's SP PBT or Ducky/IMSTO/other PBT, there's no competition that POM is better.
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I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
If you're comparing Cherry PBT and Cherry POM, I would say they are on equally matched with different pros and cons.
If it's SP PBT or Ducky/IMSTO/other PBT, there's no competition that POM is better.
To clarify, these are the specific keys I was referencing by material type:
1. Model F PBT/ Topre PBT
2. Cherry POM
3. Cherry ABS
The only thing better than these would be a complete CC resin board ;)
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I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
If you're comparing Cherry PBT and Cherry POM, I would say they are on equally matched with different pros and cons.
If it's SP PBT or Ducky/IMSTO/other PBT, there's no competition that POM is better.
To clarify, these are the specific keys I was referencing by material type:
1. Model F PBT/ Topre PBT
2. Cherry POM
3. Cherry ABS
The only thing better than these would be a complete CC resin board ;)
I love fighting about keyboards.
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SP's DSA PBT keys are quite nice to me. :D
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I think the largest difference comes from the different profiles.
with the cherry profile, because it's lower, you have less horizontal movement during the entirety of the keystroke, because there's less lever action on the key stem,
This would result in a perceptively smoother key travel.
However, I love orings, and you can't easily put orings on cherry profile.
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All depends on shape and thickness and what switches you use.
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All depends on shape and thickness and what switches you use.
This is the correct answer.
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In my limited experience of ABS (Filco, Poker, Leopold, WASD sampler and a few SP novelties) vs PBT (Ducky, KBC thin, a few SP novelties) I have to say I prefer the texture of PBT. Sometimes I like the smoothness of ABS but it can make it feel like my fingers are a little greasy when they aren't. I don't really have much of an opinion of the difference in sound and typing feel as all of the keys have been similar thickness.
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It is all subjective.
After having tried sets of thin OEM PBT with and without a rough surface texture (KBC and Vortex), regular ABS, double shot ABS cherry profile and thick PBT cherry profile there have been a couple of things that stood out to me:
- I can live with any of these options, my preferences do not seem as strong as those of most. (no "ewwww ABS", or "never touching OEM profile again")
- Any type of keycap material or profile feels better as I use it for a longer period of time and my muscle memory/ fingers adjust.
- Roughness or surface texture appears to have more to do with the exact production process of a set than the material is it made out of.
I am using OEM profile thin PBT now on all my keyboards. I like it as much as ABS, with the additional benefit of less shine and no yellowing over time (since I use some light colored keycaps in environments with lots of sunlight). ABS feels somehow softer, PBT feels like a harder more rigid material. I can see how someone could like one over the other, though arguments could be made for both. There were times where I thought I had a clear preference, but then after switching back and forth, I ended up undecided again.
Since I have used all sets on only browns I can not comment on how different type of sets feel on different switches.
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PBT differ by manufacturer
I like the ones by BSP and Topre.
The rest are meh
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ABS = Win.
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If you're comparing Cherry PBT and Cherry POM, I would say they are on equally matched with different pros and cons.
If it's SP PBT or Ducky/IMSTO/other PBT, there's no competition that POM is better.
Did Cherry ever make blank pbt or are my imsto caps the best I'll get?
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ABS = Win.
i was just gonna post that you're in agreement with the OP lol
I personally don't like the thick PBTs from IMSTO.
Normal PBTs are nice, but i really prefer SP Doubleshots myself.
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Haha ;) Yes I do have imsto's PBT, Ducky's thick PBT, and all kind of thin PBTs. ABS is it for me when I want to type a lot. Though Cherry POM is the best compromise between feel and durability.
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ABS (Cherry) is nice for about 5 minutes before it starts to get blindingly shiny :p
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I prefer the PBT on my Realforce 87u over PBT on my leopold fc660c though I've only had the fc660c for an hour ;).
There is no comparison. PBT Keys on my Realforce >>>> stock filco ABS. Many people say cherry switch with PBT is > cherry switch with ABS... But I have yet to try it. As all things keyboard... It's subjective! There is no one size fits all :rolleyes:
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Where is it possible to get ABS Cherry-profile double shot keys?
I had some from the group buy few years back but sold them for PBT, which I now regret.
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https://www.originativeco.com/
He's also getting some Cherry PBT from what I heard but not sure when it will be in stock.
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now get some cheap as POM Cherry G-80 caps from Signature Plastics and be really confused.
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http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44630.0
I tried using some old Deskos, and they did not feel so good. I really liked the new RGB sets though.
GMK ABS were super great when I first bought a $30 set on eBay. Today, I typed on brand new BSP dye subs, wow...
I'm not sure about POMs. I'm going to HAVE to get some...
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PBT, ABS, POM....they all feel like plastic.
all my key caps are NOW DIAMONDS
(http://static.tumblr.com/avwweic/pfLm5ja01/tumblr_lybsx7ekb21qk5fioo4_250.gif)
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POM, PBT and ABS are all different kinds of plastic, and all feet different, and if you want to get really hyper-sensitive, they feel different on different switches. Also the thickness counts, and the profile. So there really is a lot to it. Each type of plastic has advantages and disadvantages. Here is my assessment:
PBT
It's the hardest plastic of the three, and you can feel it on your fingers, but it's also the most durable. It therefore lasts the longest before becoming shiny or discolored.
Printing can only be by dye sublimation or laser etched. Currently there is no known reliable method of making double-shot PBT's. Which means that all PBT keycaps must have darker legends than the rest of the keycaps. As such, black keycaps will always be otaku or near-otaku. Also due to the way PBT plastic cools in a mold, space bars are a huge problem to make. But PBT space bars are not impossible to make however, they just seem to be hard to make, and are probably expensive to make as well, so you don't see them very often. PBT is of course great for a gaming keyboard, since the WASD cluster will take a very long time to shine.
ABS
It's the softest and you can feel it on your fingers, but it's the least durable. It becomes shiny quite rapidly, and feels totally different when shiny. It also has a tendency to yellow, especially when exposed to UV light. But it can be made in double-shot injection molding process, meaning you can have any color legends with any color keycaps, including white on black. Many consider double shots to be the best looking keycaps. Not good for a gaming keyboard, because of the shine.
POM
The mysterious other. The least known, and the most over-looked. I have an awesome cherry profile set of POM keycaps. They are relatively thick. They feel great, especially on MX red switches. They feel smoother and "faster" somehow. However, I have only seen Laser etched and in-filled POM keycaps (and of course blanks). I do not think it is possible to double-shot them. Also I have never seen any dye sublimated POM keycaps, but theoretically it should be possible, if you had light colored POM keycaps to start with. I had a set of Chinese-made Rainbow POM jellies that felt great as well. But they were blank (which I didn't like at the time) so I sold them. But, I have a Noppoo Choc Mini with POM's and they don't feel as great as the Cherry-profile keycaps. And I'm not sure why.
As for the best?
I would say it depends on what you want them for, and what keyboard you are going to be using them on. And of course personal taste is the ultimate qualifier.
But I would say there are some opinions that are generally unanimous:
1. Thicker keycaps are always better than thinner, when comparing keycaps of the same plastic type.
2. Double shot ABS keycaps look the best, and come in a wider array of color combinations.
3. Dye sublimated PBT keycaps last the longest by far. I have a vintage Desko keyboard with a set of keycaps which contained a combination of ABS and PBT kecyaps. The ABS are worn smooth as glass, and the PBT have not even begun to shine. The Desko keyboard was obviously heavily used at an airport for years, but the PBT keycaps still look almost new. The ABS keycaps on the same keyboard are of course too shiny for words.
4. POM keycaps are used much less frequently than the other two. The reason? I have no idea.
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I couldn't disagree more...
PBT > POM > ABS
These things are quite subjective and warrant frequent debate.
If you're comparing Cherry PBT and Cherry POM, I would say they are on equally matched with different pros and cons.
If it's SP PBT or Ducky/IMSTO/other PBT, there's no competition that POM is better.
I would rank cherry thin PBT pretty far below cherry's thick POM. I haven't tried cherry's thick PBT, but Imsto PBT is very nice. Here's my ranking:
Imsto PBT
Cherry POM
IBM PBT
Honeywell extra-thick Doubleshots
Honeywell Tripleshots
SP PBT
PBT (medium thickness, for cherry G84)
Cherry thick ABS (doubleshots) (only if new)
SP doubleshots (depending on switch type)
Thin PBT (cherry)
Thin ABS (cmstorm)
Note; this ranking is highly dependant n switch type. One reason the extra thick honeywell ABS doubleshots and Honeywell tripleshots rank so high is they go with very nice linear hall effect keyswitches.
Also, i would rank the super rough SP modifiers quite highly as well, almost up there with PBT
Eth0s's reply, above is excellent and mirrors my own thoughts rather well.
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i am loving the POM love.
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I think part of the reason why I tried so many different keys is because people on the boards are always like "OMG, finger heaven I will NEVER GO BACK" about this or that. Of course, statements like this makes you curious to test it out. Myself I have never found quite as big a difference in overall typing experience even if there are some things that I like more than others.
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It doesn't really matter until the keycaps turn into ugly shiny things that feel sticky when you touch them (especially with sweaty hands). That usually takes about twenty years on PBT—or two months on ABS keycaps. The rest is about profile/height, thickness and texture out of the box.
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Just installed my PBT keycaps on my filco and I have to say I am enjoying the feeling of PBT more than ABS. I am still getting used to the lower cherry profile so my typing has been a bit off but the keycaps feel much better.
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I prefer KBC PBTs...
PBT>Ti>PC>POM>Al>ABS
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It doesn't really matter until the keycaps turn into ugly shiny things that feel sticky when you touch them (especially with sweaty hands). That usually takes about twenty years on PBT—or two months on ABS keycaps. The rest is about profile/height, thickness and texture out of the box.
Two months is optimistic for many of us.
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It doesn't really matter until the keycaps turn into ugly shiny things that feel sticky when you touch them (especially with sweaty hands). That usually takes about twenty years on PBT—or two months on ABS keycaps. The rest is about profile/height, thickness and texture out of the box.
Two months is optimistic for many of us.
Maybe you need to wash your hands. ~,^
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I agree that Realforce PBT is amazing. I only wish that IMSTO white PBT didn't look so crappy IMO. They could have worked a bit more with the PBT plastic to get it a more pure white. BSP's PBT is still a mystery to me.
Other then that, I find that softer plastics ie. ABS feels better on clicky switches vs PBT.
On the flip side, for linear switches PBT feels pretty darn amazing and SP ABS is acceptable.
For POM, they're kind of in the middle in terms of hardness. So perhaps they're like the chicken of the key cap world.
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Thick Cherry POM caps sound like sex; is there a simple way to source them or am I going to have to dig through mountains of old second-hand Cherry POS boards? ><
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Actually, I think there is double shot pbt keycap. I have seen a few picture of them, and the are white on black.(may be is clear on black?)
And also, the keycap of deck keyboard is also double shot pbt?(correct me if it is wrong)
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And also, the keycap of deck keyboard is also double shot pbt?(correct me if it is wrong)
It's a dyesub flat piece of pbt glued into a pbt (I think) housing.
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Profile makes a bigger difference for me. I much prefer cherry the most, SP is decent and OEM is just a profile I don't want to use. As for material, it doesn't really make a huge difference for me to be honest. I'm buying more PBT caps just because they should last longer without wearing, but I still really like how crisp and clean the legends are on ABS DS caps.
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I really like the titanum and zinc keycaps myself. Not so sure about the aluminum ones.
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Just my $0.02, I loved the feel of SP DS ABS, but fell in love with with the PBT on my RF. That being said, the lower quality PBT that came on my 660C I didn't like as much as the RF PBT or my SP ABS. And that's why I swapped all the alphas and as many mods as possible from my RF to my 660C :D
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LOL I can't feel the difference between the ABS on some of my cheap keyboards, vs the high quality PBT on my Realforce. What is probably more important is the keyswitch choice. I think the only advantage of PBT is that it resists shine.
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I'm surprised that The Captain hasn't showed up yet. He says that he likes ABS more that PBT. As he remarked in IRC yesterday, "**** pbt".
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cherry thin pbt
hhkb pbt
imsto thick pbt
GMK abs DS
SP ABS DS
SP PBT DS
OEM
thats my order. gmk look the best when brand new though.
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I am with The_Beast on this one. I much prefer the cherry profile over most other profiles... They just feel best on MX switches imho. Some of the best cherry profile switches are cherry DS abs. I love them :)
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I don't care PBT or ABS but I prefer thick to thin
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thick ABS 2shots number one by FAAAR
for me they don't change their feel or get sticky when they shine- I think that's psychological because it doesn't look good (when you get real close and look precise) and when I think about it... getting shiny means the surface gets plain. and then they start to be sticky? why and how should they?
It's a matter of taste, not more, not less-
and: I've seen PBT 2shots on our german trypad so they exist-
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I've recently sanded some shiny ABS keycaps. 1000 sandpaper makes them shiny, but smooth—not sticky.
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I've recently sanded some shiny ABS keycaps. 1000 sandpaper makes them shiny, but smooth—not sticky.
Please keep us posted on the durability of this remedy.
Would you consider that your sanding pressure was "light" or "aggressive"?
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[snip]
Here is my assessment:
PBT
It's the hardest plastic of the three, and you can feel it on your fingers, but it's also the most durable. It therefore lasts the longest before becoming shiny or discolored.
Printing can only be by dye sublimation or laser etched. Currently there is no known reliable method of making double-shot PBT's. Which means that all PBT keycaps must have darker legends than the rest of the keycaps. As such, black keycaps will always be otaku or near-otaku. Also due to the way PBT plastic cools in a mold, space bars are a huge problem to make. But PBT space bars are not impossible to make however, they just seem to be hard to make, and are probably expensive to make as well, so you don't see them very often. PBT is of course great for a gaming keyboard, since the WASD cluster will take a very long time to shine.
[/snip]
You can pad print a lighter color legend on a darker color PBT - but it doesn't last. There is an M13 up on clickykeyboards from 1997 with white pad printed legends on black PBT keys, some of the letters are starting to fade.
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I put some cherry thick ABS doubleshots on my LZ over the weekend. They looked great, felt completely wrong to type on. It was distracting. So I took some photos and switched back to the BSP thick PBT dye-subs + aluminum spacebar I was using previously. It's a strange thing - in the past I've liked using the Dolch set on my Dolch PAC board (and I still do), but they just felt wrong on the LZ. I think it comes down to the differences in texture/friction of the keys and which switches you are using them with - original Dolch keys have a rather coarse texture to them, more pronounced compared to the GMK ABS caps I've used, but the BSP PBT caps have a finer texture than either, and (imo) more pleasing levels of both static and kinetic friction - they just pair better with the lubed linear switches in my LZ. I've kinda taken a liking to having a mostly A-profile bottom row, too (never thought I'd say that).
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im all for ABS!! prefer the smoother feel, my finger tips tends to slip off PBT caps easier than ABS.
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Cherry ABS doubleshots are the best you can get. Don't let the PBT crowd fool you. They want you to sell them your ABS caps and buy PBT so they can have them all. Also, you should take those ABS doubleshots from Cherry and match them with Cherry's greatest masterpiece to date: the G81 with MY switches. You can thank me later.
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I'm finally going to have thick PBT AND thin PBT to compare with ABS in the next few days. So far, I've found a pretty wide range of how different ABS caps feel. ABS SP doubleshots / thin WYSE doubleshots, vs. stock Filco caps (thin ABS), vs Ducky Shine caps (I think it's ABS, but I have a feeling they are some special softer kind of translucent ABS that's then coated in this rubbery color). They all feel quite different, and I have certain preferences. I have also tried thin PBT (OEM profile) and thick doubleshot ABS (new Cherry modifiers from EliteKeyboards). I can't say that ABS feels better than PBT because of the aforementioned differences I've encountered even among ABS caps.
The proper thing to say would be "I prefer X keycaps that are made of Y material in Z profile, and P thickness on M switches", because all of those variables matter."
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Cherry ABS doubleshots are the best you can get. Don't let the PBT crowd fool you. They want you to sell them your ABS caps and buy PBT so they can have them all. Also, you should take those ABS doubleshots from Cherry and match them with Cherry's greatest masterpiece to date: the G81 with MY switches. You can thank me later.
Moose, that is interesting, you mean the swiches are good, or the caps on them?
I can get them pretty easily where i am, and dirt cheap!
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I think you should take a look at my profile, and make a decision for yourself. If you can get them cheap, what's to lose except never knowing the truth about mechanical keyboards?