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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: czarek on Thu, 20 June 2013, 01:56:46
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I recently received QFR with MX Red and I'm very disappointed. I was expecting something nice and smooth, similar to NMB linear switches or at least G81 MY switches and MX Red is nothing like those. It's scratchy like sandpaper, not nice to type on at all. It's especially noticeable when coming from BS or Topre, but strangely I notice it even after spending some time in the machine shop (where I use G81). Do they need some break in period or something? I force myself to use it for another day hoping it will get better...
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Maybe try lubing the switches?
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Lubing would definitely take care of that scratchiness.
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So no way it will break in? With all honesty, I'll rather put it to storage or give to some friend I don't like. No way I'm going to spend hours trying to fix what switch designer / manufacturer ****ed up... There are other switches that are nice and usable out of the box (Topre) or after short break in (BS).
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This has to do with the keycaps.
The oem profile tends to be scratchier than cherry profile, because it's taller, causing more torque during oblique key-presses.
Cherry profile is much smoother because it is essentially a shorter lever arm.
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So no way it will break in? With all honesty, I'll rather put it to storage or give to some friend I don't like. No way I'm going to spend hours trying to fix what switch designer / manufacturer ****ed up... There are other switches that are nice and usable out of the box (Topre) or after short break in (BS).
Type on it for a few months and it will be broken in. Topre is smooth as butter out of the box, cherry mx is not.
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Thanks, this gives me a bit of optimism using it then. I also ordered set of PBT keycaps hoping they will improve the feel.
I love the Topre feel (especially in Realforce, but it's pretty new, while HHKB I have used for over 2 years) but the boards are not perfect. Rubber is inconsistent or wears out. I'm not sure why some keys on my HHKB are lighter than the other. Maybe it was like that when I got it, but it's quite likely they got lighter (almost linear in case of FN) because they're the most used ones (Metas, Alts, Shifts, ESC, FN, Enter). It very much reminds me what happened to rubber domes in my dad's MacBook. He uses down arrow to scroll and he does it a lot. After some time arrow down became noticeably lighter than the other keys.
Also the space bar and availability of keycaps (especially their price) is pissing me off. To get rid of shiny space bar I have to pay 110 USD for set of keys, then 65 USD for shipping and 50 USD import duties. That's more than the price of brand new Filco or 3 QFRs/G80s in here!
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I have a Das with browns that I used for 2 years. The switches are noticably smoother than the brand new filco with browns that I'm using now. They just take some time get worked in.
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Some say you need to break them in. Some say you need to lube them. I say it mostly has to do with different batches of cherry mx switches. The newer ones just aren't as smooth. You don't know true mx smoothness until you've tried vintage switches. I've owned maybe 5 mx red boards made within the last 2 years (from brand new to very well broken in) and none were anywhere near as smooth as brand new (never broken in) vintage switches.
Some discussion about scratchiness in another thread: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=43701.msg897847#msg897847
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I just flood them with lube and flush out any excess with compressed air if I overdo it.
I find MX inherently scratchy and breaking it in nothing too pronounced.
It also sounds cheap, like shuffling LEGOS when mashing them unlubed.
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I lubed mine with GpL205 but still get that scratchy feeling.
Changing to black stems does wonders though
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I thought my red just started to break in but i did little experiment and switched to Realforce for a day. No way, going back to MX hurts badly, it is springier, but feels cheap, plasticky, scratchy and somehow mushy. I'm going to give it another chance when PBT caps come it, maybe try some o-rings too. But for the next keyboard, which I plan to be the last one I buy, I will be getting all 55G black full size Topre. I think that + my BS keyboards (I love to rotate BS and Topre) for desktop and HHKB for portable use will do it just fine.
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about 2 weeks ago I got a new Filco with browns. every switch was scratchy, But now the ones I use the most for starcraft have become more smooth. It just takes some time. but it will never be as smooth as Topre.
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Through a very scientific and precisely measured process, I calculated these numbers for the smoothness of various switches:
(10 being the smoothest)
new modern MX - 2.45
broken in modern MX - 2.89
vintage MX - 8.38
Topre - 9.87
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You may also find it interesting that my wife actually prefers this scratchy MX board to Realforce. She says Topre feels like ordinary Logitech keyboard, is mushy and uninteresting, while MX Red while linear is more springy and feels more solid to her. She doesn't care for smoothness at all.
BTW. She uses RD Logitech at work and BS at home, but she rarely uses keyboard at home ;) It's her favourite though (mine too, but I like rotating it with ligher and quieter Topre).
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Through a very scientific and precisely measured process, I calculated these numbers for the smoothness of various switches:
(10 being the smoothest)
new modern MX - 2.45
broken in modern MX - 2.89
vintage MX - 8.38
Topre - 9.87
Did you try measuring them on the various Lubed methodologies?
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Through a very scientific and precisely measured process, I calculated these numbers for the smoothness of various switches:
(10 being the smoothest)
new modern MX - 2.45
broken in modern MX - 2.89
vintage MX - 8.38
Topre - 9.87
Did you try measuring them on the various Lubed methodologies?
Lube increases smoothness by 0.52 (+/–0.13 depending on the type of lube)
You may also find it interesting that my wife actually prefers this scratchy MX board to Realforce. She says Topre feels like ordinary Logitech keyboard, is mushy and uninteresting, while MX Red while linear is more springy and feels more solid to her. She doesn't care for smoothness at all.
BTW. She uses RD Logitech at work and BS at home, but she rarely uses keyboard at home ;) It's her favourite though (mine too, but I like rotating it with ligher and quieter Topre).
I actually prefer scratchier switches for browns and blues. I feel like the bump is a little more pronounced. I had a Dolch PAC keyboard with vintage blues, and they were so smooth that they were almost linear like reds, but with an annoying click sound.
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Through a very scientific and precisely measured process, I calculated these numbers for the smoothness of various switches:
(10 being the smoothest)
new modern MX - 2.45
broken in modern MX - 2.89
vintage MX - 8.38
Topre - 9.87
Did you try measuring them on the various Lubed methodologies?
Lube increases smoothness by 0.52 (+/–0.13 depending on the type of lube)
You may also find it interesting that my wife actually prefers this scratchy MX board to Realforce. She says Topre feels like ordinary Logitech keyboard, is mushy and uninteresting, while MX Red while linear is more springy and feels more solid to her. She doesn't care for smoothness at all.
BTW. She uses RD Logitech at work and BS at home, but she rarely uses keyboard at home ;) It's her favourite though (mine too, but I like rotating it with ligher and quieter Topre).
I actually prefer scratchier switches for browns and blues. I feel like the bump is a little more pronounced. I had a Dolch PAC keyboard with vintage blues, and they were so smooth that they were almost linear like reds, but with an annoying click sound.
That's very interesting.
It seems that lubing only adds so much when you already have a vintage MX based on your numbers.
Are you open to sharing what method you are using to make these measurements?
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I've definitely noticed a significant variation in smoothness between different keyboards, even with the same switch type. As others have noted, this difference comes from the degree of use (switches loose that rough scratchy feeling over time with prolonged use) and also different batches of switches from Cherry. It's not brand-dependent--it's up to Cherry to provide smoother switches. Two brand new keyboards with MX Browns (Storm Triggers) had very scratchy switches. My Ducky Shine came with butter-smooth Browns right out of the box. Two used Filcos I now have have very smooth Browns and Blues. But a brand new Filco with MX Blacks that I briefly had was so scratchy, some switches made a whistling sound! (not just the modifiers with Costar stabilizers--actual legend keys, like Z, S, etc.)
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Through a very scientific and precisely measured process, I calculated these numbers for the smoothness of various switches:
(10 being the smoothest)
new modern MX - 2.45
broken in modern MX - 2.89
vintage MX - 8.38
Topre - 9.87
Did you try measuring them on the various Lubed methodologies?
Lube increases smoothness by 0.52 (+/–0.13 depending on the type of lube)
You may also find it interesting that my wife actually prefers this scratchy MX board to Realforce. She says Topre feels like ordinary Logitech keyboard, is mushy and uninteresting, while MX Red while linear is more springy and feels more solid to her. She doesn't care for smoothness at all.
BTW. She uses RD Logitech at work and BS at home, but she rarely uses keyboard at home ;) It's her favourite though (mine too, but I like rotating it with ligher and quieter Topre).
I actually prefer scratchier switches for browns and blues. I feel like the bump is a little more pronounced. I had a Dolch PAC keyboard with vintage blues, and they were so smooth that they were almost linear like reds, but with an annoying click sound.
That's very interesting.
It seems that lubing only adds so much when you already have a vintage MX based on your numbers.
Are you open to sharing what method you are using to make these measurements?
You should probably stop quoting me.
(http://i.imgur.com/PUs9mPs.gif)
But seriously, that's roughly how I would rate them based on my experience with various boards.
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But seriously, that's roughly how I would rate them based on my experience with various boards.
So it's just your subjective opinions right?
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But seriously, that's roughly how I would rate them based on my experience with various boards.
So it's just your subjective opinions right?
yup!
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Ok, little update after about a week of use. I can feel it breaking in. There is some difference to the alpha keys when compared to F5-F15 which I don't use much (I only use F1-F4 in Vim). My hands also adjusted to light linear feel. I can mostly type without bottoming out and to my surprise I type faster than on tactile switches, since my fingers just fly around keyboard lightly touching keys while typing. But I was really shocked when I replaced it with my Realforce as it felt harder the tactile bump kind of got in a way! Also the keyboard feels way less springy and somehow slower than the MX... I'm still waiting for PBT keys to arrive but it really seems that this will become one of my favourite switches (it won't beat BS but it could beat Topre).
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Sweet! Good to hear you stuck with it and eventually liked it. Reds are one of my favorites too, over the other mx and even 45g Topre. Once you adjust and the typos go away, fingers flying around the keyboard is definitely the way to describe it :)
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Congratulations for your persistence! It has paid off, and you might have found your ideal switch.
I was surprised how much I liked reds, but I have too many keyboards and haven't used them for a while (playing with HHKB for now).