geekhack
geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: Melvang on Sat, 22 June 2013, 17:46:23
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Alright guys here is the deal. Like the subject says I need to buy some tools for work. All I need to buy right now is a set of combination wrenches from 3/8" to at least 3/4" and sockets from 7/16" to 1 1/8". The one requirement is they absolutely MUST be made in USA. The reason for that is because I work union. Any suggestions on brands? Craftsman is out because they are all made in China now. The two brands I am looking at right now are Wright and Armstrong. Ideas, comments, or suggestions.
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What about Snap On tools?
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What about Snap On tools?
From what I remember they are way overpriced. When I was looking to replace my long handle ratchet with a non flex head version Snap-On was the only company I could find with a 1/2" drive ratchet over 15" but they wanted almost $150 for it.
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Almost everything made in America is "overpriced" because you're so used to buying everything so cheap from China.
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Even compared to other USA made brands of hand tools they are still overpriced. Plus you don't want to know what happens to foreign tools on a union job at a union plant.
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html?ie=UTF8&docId=1000901861
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Almost everything made in America is "overpriced" because you're so used to buying everything so cheap from China.
Due to competition and a free market economy that the U.S. pushes and is law, it is reasonable to "be used" to competitive pricing. The union is anti-trade, anti fair competition, and at this point in our history, un-american. F the union, its business model is obsolete and serves no purpose other than to line the pockets of the union management. It is a business. We have labor laws that protect employees now, unlike the early part of the century
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Almost everything made in America is "overpriced" because you're so used to buying everything so cheap from China.
Due to competition and a free market economy that the U.S. pushes and is law, it is reasonable to "be used" to competitive pricing. The union is anti-trade, anti fair competition, and at this point in our history, un-american. F the union, its business model is obsolete and serves no purpose other than to line the pockets of the union management. It is a business. We have labor laws that protect employees now, unlike the early part of the century
I agree completely with everything you said. As an aside though, our market is based on capitalism. Want for as much profit as possible, as well as those same labor laws that they lack, means that we can't compete with China on the cheap end.
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Didn't ask about union opinions just suggestions for brand names for tools. But on the union topic why would I do the same work for half the pay on the check and very little to no long term benefits.
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Almost everything made in America is "overpriced" because you're so used to buying everything so cheap from China.
Due to competition and a free market economy that the U.S. pushes and is law, it is reasonable to "be used" to competitive pricing. The union is anti-trade, anti fair competition, and at this point in our history, un-american. F the union, its business model is obsolete and serves no purpose other than to line the pockets of the union management. It is a business. We have labor laws that protect employees now, unlike the early part of the century
Labor laws, perhaps. But the unions are the only ones looking out for the workers. There's a reason IKEA is opening a factory in the US; cheap labor and weak labor laws.
Don't take my word for it, look it up. There's direct correlation between the number of workers who belong to a union and income inequality. When unions negotiate for better wages and working conditions, all workers benefit, not just union members.
Good tools are a worthwhile investment. I have Swedish chisels that belonged to my dad, I'll be able to pass them along to my son. Can't say the same about the Made in China crap sold in most stores now.
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Didn't ask about union opinions just suggestions for brand names for tools. But on the union topic why would I do the same work for half the pay on the check and very little to no long term benefits.
I think the real question is why should you be paid twice the money for that work when someone would do it for half? Unions have a tendency to inflate things so much, that businesses fail trying to keep up.
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Didn't ask about union opinions just suggestions for brand names for tools. But on the union topic why would I do the same work for half the pay on the check and very little to no long term benefits.
I think the real question is why should you be paid twice the money for that work when someone would do it for half? Unions have a tendency to inflate things so much, that businesses fail trying to keep up.
No one wins in a race to the bottom. Businesses started with the premise that cheap labor is required? Why would anyone ever work for them?
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Didn't ask about union opinions just suggestions for brand names for tools. But on the union topic why would I do the same work for half the pay on the check and very little to no long term benefits.
Wasn't offering tool input, was responding to the American/China tool price.
Unions are ruining America. They helped shut down some auto manufacturers in 2008-2009. Non-competitive, and that's anti-American
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snap on
although honestly you get a better deal with wiha tooling, but that's made in germany, so i guess it's out :))
also, i very honestly think that country music is ruining america. i mean seriously, HOW?! WHY?! christ.
oh yes, proto is quite good. i don't think they manufacture in america though. maybe eastern europe? they have to state country of origin for each piece, so check out the catalog.
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I have some Proto impact sockets I like a lot, very well made. No idea if they're still made in the US, though.
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i thought craftsman is american as you can get with tools?
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i thought craftsman is american as you can get with tools?
was, until people wanted cheaper tools.
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Alright guys enough of the union bashing. If you had seen some of the atrocities that non-union companies pass off as "quality" work in my trade than you would understand why companies hire union help for the projects that in house personnel can't do for whatever reasons. But I am not going to keep defending my career choices. If it keeps up I will just have this thread deleted. All I am looking for is brand name suggestions for US made hand tools. Even if I wasn't working union I would still only by US made tools to support my own country's economy. I can't see why that is so wrong.
Journeyman Union Millwright formerly known as Technical Engineer
Chris Hurlbut
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http://www.kleintools.com/catalog
murica
http://www.channellock.com/
murica
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This whole thread could have been solved with maybe 5 minutes and a google search for "tools made in the USA" or the amazon link that kirkle put up
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http://wildetool.com/catid-41.cfm
more murica
OP typical union worker, lazy as hell.
kidding!
go murica!
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and more
http://www.all-spec.com/products/Allen/Tools%7CWrenches_and_Sockets%7CTOL-79/
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was looking more for tools that guys had personal experience with and good dealings with not just a list of what brands were US made
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Craigslist/ebay/pawn shops for secondhand snap-on if new is too steep a price to invest in American. But really, snap-on is about the best you can get for ratchets and wrenches have a nice feel to them as well. Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
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all this stuff im getting from a forum that has used it.
i have no brand loyalty, since i dont pay for my tools i dont care what i use as long as it works.
http://www.armstrongtools.com/clientextensions/danaher/pages/default.aspx < they supply the military, can't get more murican than that.
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Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
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i very honestly think snap-on may be your only option. the modern apple nee dell nee sony nee ... model of high level engineering in the US (japan, germany, insert any G8 country you want), and minor assembly ODM and integration outside of the US has proven to be far more profitable in the short-term such that no public company doing high volume manufacturing can pursue this option seriously without having the pants sued off of them or saying goodbye to their market capitalization.
in seriously high margin markets (cars, very little else), final assembly can be done in a G8 country, but not a single one of those items will be 100% sourced from G8 countries, or again, short-term fiduciary responsibility rears its ugly head.
re: armstrong
armstrong's statement: http://www.armstrongtools.com/content3.aspx?500tuccidi=vgCkVqyHz6ARPyCcSd8SHQ%3d%3d
given that they have meaty military contracts, i would actually bet that this is actually a ridiculously bald-faced lie. that said, if the tools are good and they fulfill your contract, go for it.
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
I don't really care about union stuff. But it seems pretty crappy that you have to buy your own tools to even work.
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
I don't really care about union stuff. But it seems pretty crappy that you have to buy your own tools to even work.
You don't want to see my tool list that i have to carry. There would be no way that any contractor could supply that many tools for 20 guys for a maint. contract let alone 150+ guys for a plant expansion
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
I don't really care about union stuff. But it seems pretty crappy that you have to buy your own tools to even work.
it is crappy.
i had to work a few months like that, which was bull**** and i quit. hell if im spending my money to make another ******* rich.
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
I don't really care about union stuff. But it seems pretty crappy that you have to buy your own tools to even work.
I think it's more common than not outside of construction. I know it's standard in the tool wielding jobs I've had
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Also, most, if not all, of the ratchet stuff they sell is rebuildable, so if you strip a gear, it's an easy fix/replacement.
I hear that my Armstrong ratchets are rebuildable. Although I don't' ever see myself stripping a gear in the 1/2" drive. I have actually hung me entire body on it without a hiccup.
Hold on, so the union is making you buy your own tools?
yup its that way in every local for the Millwright trade
I don't really care about union stuff. But it seems pretty crappy that you have to buy your own tools to even work.
this is true for virtually all tradesmen. only those stuck on lines don't get/have to buy their own tools
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besides its only the hand tools that i have to buy. I am not allowed to bring any of my own power tools on site. so for the most part all my tools can fit snugly into a pair of 4 drawer craftsman tool boxes plus one extra for my precision tools that does not go to work unless i actually need them for a particular task. Plus they are all a tax write off anyway but when you could buy US made craftsman, buying all the stuff on my tool list was around $3000 but i didn't have to have all that the first year. The apprenticeship is 4 years long and at the end of 1st through 3rd year you have to have a certain portion to advance to the next paygrade with everything bought by end of the 3rd year.
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it does really suck that sears moved all their production out of the country. when you think about it, machinist/millwright/what-have-you apprenticing and other trades (which ARE non-tradable jobs when you are not manufacturing shippable product) is really only possible when you have a full ecosystem in the country. some of those machinists are going to start on eg craftsman tools and end up making craftsman tools.
a lot of jobs went away when sears moved production out of the country, but worse, it was one more step in the disintegration of an economic system that was very very hard to build, and will be more and more economically painful as it goes away.
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I've had Snap On and Proto. Outstanding stuff. I've played with Wiha, also outstanding. I can't imagine what would be different to that type of tool to make it any better. They just work. And, if there's a problem, they give you a new one, but I think most everyone does that now. You can't go wrong with this stuff. Others have offered the same opinion, so I'm basically parroting what has already been said.
To be clear, I'm in NO WAY attacking or bashing you personally. You just want to make as much money as you can, you don't care about anything other than that. You're a young guy and you believe you're doing well because the union has done their programming well. That's what they do. But at the same time, the bigger picture it's making the U.S. noncompetitive and we are losing our standing relative to most of the world. Once that happens, no one will make over-inflated wages, and what will the union do for you then?
I see just as many "atrocities" made by union shops as non-union shops (it's about equal, give or take) so your argument is completely invalid, without standing or merit. Unions do not contractually guarantee quality. Unions protect those in the "mediocre" category that would get canned on the free market, that's the PURPOSE of the union, they do this so they can make more money for themselves. Because the better workers don't get canned, they are already in high demand and make the best wages because they produce the most and the highest quality. The union waters down the quality with the lesser quality workers getting the same high benefits and are protected. I started as a California state attorney as a liaison to control unions, and since then I've been a union shop and a non-union shop, I am an expert at both ends, not as an employee. The union, in the end, is ripping off my employees. My employees on the non-union side make MORE than the union side. They are WORTH more.
This is a discussion forum, by participating you will get just that, discussion, opinions, on and off topic. If you can't handle people expressing thoughts that you may not agree with or upsets your rep at the union hall, either don't read it or offer a qualified rebuttal...but it's gonna happen one way or another. It's the real world so rise up and deal with it like anything else or you can threaten to delete the thread (people still do that? lol). So close the thread, it won't hurt my feelings. I can deal with it, it's the real world.
I didn't open the union part of the thread, I offered my opinion once it was on the table. And since YOU escalated the union aspect and threaten to delete the thread because someone offers a different opinion than yours... the union aspect is on the table. That's how a discussion forum works.
Your passionate opinion=union is great, get paid lots of money that no one else will pay
My passionate opinion=unionization is antiquated, and is bad for the United States
Is either of us right? Is either of us wrong? What's your opinion of THAT? Do you have one? Feel free to PM me about this and we can not clog up this tool thread any longer. But I will screenshoot this post and repost in the event of this thread vaporizing. Because it's the real world and people need to know.
I'm flying to Hong Kong now, where I'll be safe from the sinister union reps in black hats and their wicked ways of mind control and email peeping. I hope I don't get extradited and spend the rest of my life in a SuperMax in Kansas. I mean really, can't it be a bit more glamorous...like in Hollywooooood? This probably already has a screenplay written.