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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: xSpartanCx on Mon, 15 July 2013, 10:42:39
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I bought myself a Model M, after hearing that everyone thinks it's amazing. After getting it, I don't find it amazing. The "click" of the spring is a nice noise, but I don't think it's as tactile as mx blues. What do you guys think? What makes this keyboard so awesome?
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You bought one, tried it, it's not for you. What else do you want to know? It's not like our opinion will sway what you think about it when you type on it...
That being said, I think they feel slightly heavier than MX Blues, the construction of my SSK is much better, and I like the mechanism inside.
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to each their own i guess...
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What do you guys think?
What kind of vehicle do you drive?
If you like sports cars you should not buy a pickup truck.
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Don't have one, I ride a bike.
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Don't have one, I ride a bike.
huehuehue. this made me laugh
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I really like the tactility of the model M's, especially compared with blues. Buckling springs are heavier and louder than blues, and actuate at a different point. I haven't had a chance to use blues for any length of time, but even cherry greens sound cheap to my buckling-spring attuned ears.
So It's really a thing of preference. Any switch with a large amount of hysterisis (blues, buckling springs, etc) will be very tactile by it's nature. If you want to see what the buckling spring hype is really all about, see if you can borrow a model F from somewhere. I think most people prefer that feel to that of a stock M.
And perhaps your M is broken. I have a terminal M that's so heavily used the keycaps are shiny and the legends faded. There are so many rivets broken, it feels about as nice to type on a a cherry MY. Compared with my early production 1390120 (that has been bolt modded, latex blanket, etc.) it's like night and day.
So just some thoughts. One reason I like the model M is the sound. It is much lower than most blues, which I greatly prefer.
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One reason I like the model M is the sound.
Maybe I am different, but sound is pretty much irrelevant to me. If anything, I would prefer little or no sound.
And I agree that the MX blue sound is just plain bad.
Feel, however, is what is supremely important to me. I like solidity and tactility, so that is what I seek out.
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I think it's about the quality and durability of the model M that most people like. Also how solid the click is when pressing the buckling spring key down.
I find them too heavy for everyday use though.
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I bought myself a Model M, after hearing that everyone thinks it's amazing. After getting it, I don't find it amazing. The "click" of the spring is a nice noise, but I don't think it's as tactile as mx blues. What do you guys think? What makes this keyboard so awesome?
Here's what I like about IBM Model M's. Many of my reasons aren't completely rational and don't concern actual typing.
- The tactile response: the collapse of the spring makes it very clear that I've type the key. I find that my speed remains about the same, but my accuracy has improved.
- The audible click: again I like the feedback. It also signals to my co-workers that I'm doing work (and reduces interruptions).
- The build quality: I like the idea of something well-designed that lasts 20+ years. Very few things (used daily) last 20 years. And almost nothing in the computer world has lasted that long. My IBM T221 monitor is now 10 years old, and is still one of the most incredible pieces of technology. But besides the T221 and the Model M, everything else lasts 5 (maybe 10 years).
- I like the idea of old IBM technology. IBM was (is?) an amazing company. I usually rail against idealizing companies, but there have been a few companies through-out history that have significantly changed the world. IBM is definitely one of them.
Clearly, I must be getting old: because nostalgia is getting the better of me...
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The Model M is old and solid, that's why the old fat guys love it :p J/K
Just depends if you have heavy fingers or not, you'll find a switch that you like...it's not a cheap journey :P
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That being said, I think they feel slightly heavier than MX Blues, the construction of my SSK is much better, and I like the mechanism inside.
They are close to 80grams actuation if I remember right, compared to something like 45-55grams for mx blues.
As for why people like them...
They last, other than some old laser printers, it's pretty much the only computer parts over 15 years old you can still actually use in modern computing. And while one could argue technology has marched on, keyboards entered the dark ages for a couple decades where all that mattered was how cheap you can make it, whereas IBM spent a ton of money making sure the M was nice to use. So unlike other technology, keyboards really haven't marched on, at least not like other computer parts.
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That being said, I think they feel slightly heavier than MX Blues, the construction of my SSK is much better, and I like the mechanism inside.
They are close to 80grams actuation if I remember right, compared to something like 45-55grams for mx blues.
As for why people like them...
They last, other than some old laser printers, it's pretty much the only computer parts over 15 years old you can still actually use in modern computing. And while one could argue technology has marched on, keyboards entered the dark ages for a couple decades where all that mattered was how cheap you can make it, whereas IBM spent a ton of money making sure the M was nice to use. So unlike other technology, keyboards really haven't marched on, at least not like other computer parts.
Good call about the printer. My office still has a LaserJet 4m. 2.75 million pages and over 10 years old! It's super slow but it won't die. Also it's Arial font looks more like a true Helvetica: useful when printing labels for custom Model M key caps.
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model m seems not ur cup of tea, but quality wise they are unbeatable, this days the unicomp model M holds the crown, except for the custom aluminum keyboards, but that's another story and different price tier. BTW you should give unicomp try, feels much snappier than model m, kinda like blue with heavy spring aka green
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The Model M is old and solid, that's why the old fat guys love it.
Whatever else you say or think about ancient IBM iron, the word "hype" is not appropriate.
That is what you say about everything else being built today.
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Great point. Hype is a colorful $100 rubber dome "gaming" keyboard with media keys, macro keys, and a planned lifetime of about 18 months to failure.
The Model M dates back to a time when quality wasn't just an advertising catch phrase, and lowest price wasn't the only important factor in consumers' purchasing decisions.
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Great point. Hype is a colorful $100 rubber dome "gaming" keyboard with media keys, macro keys, and a planned lifetime of about 18 months to failure.
The Model M dates back to a time when quality wasn't just an advertising catch phrase, and lowest price wasn't the only important factor in consumers' purchasing decisions.
There are some membrane boards that are of very good quality, Logitech G15 I had was taking punches from me AKA the bench cracked a bit, bloody knuckles, keycaps flew, put back on keycaps board works just fine OMG!!!
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The Model M is old and solid, that's why the old fat guys love it.
Whatever else you say or think about ancient IBM iron, the word "hype" is not appropriate.
That is what you say about everything else being built today.
I absolutely agree with all the hype revolving around any "gaming" devices these days but if the device fits your preference and budget then I see no problem with it.
The Model M is the 68 SS Camaro and the Cherry MX board is the Suburu WRX....wow, that must make the Topre the Lamborghini, I'm killing myself. :O
It should be noted that the Model M has its place. Personally, I type all day at my job and game at home. If I were on a Model M all day, my girly little fingers wouldn't have much energy left. I prefer a completely different type of keyboard for different applications.
That being said, the Model M should be the staple of your keyboard collection. You just have to have one sitting around your room to remember where it all started.
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I wasn't aware of any hype surrounding the M either. He must be referring to Reddit or somewhere other than Geekhack.
Model Ms are probably the most tactile keyboard out there in terms of physical feed back. There is the audible feed back too (that nobody seems to deny.)
In terms of physical tactile feed back from my experience: BS > (MX)Blues/White Alps > (MX)Brown/Clear > Topre/Black (MX)
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I bought myself a Model M, after hearing that everyone thinks it's amazing. After getting it, I don't find it amazing. The "click" of the spring is a nice noise, but I don't think it's as tactile as mx blues. What do you guys think? What makes this keyboard so awesome?
What makes it so awesome? I can type 90WPM on it and not make any errors. On this rubber dome keyboard I'm typing on now, I can type 70WPM and there are going to be errors. Rubber dome keyboard keys are just not firm enough for me. My fingers kind of collapse on the keyboard. I feel like I'm constantly having to hold my fingers up off the keyboard. But I only use keyboards for typing. I've never played a video game online in my life.
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You think so? Maybe I need new springs, but when i type on my Model M I can't really feel the actuation point so much as hearing it. I can definitely feel it get lighter after clicking, but I can't feel the bump unless I press slowly.
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There is no hype at all, you must be hyped yourself. IBM model Ms are just different, they don't care to be good.
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Perhaps it is just that these keyboards are around 15 to 20 years old, and still going strong. How many rubber dome keyboards can you say that for?
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You think so? Maybe I need new springs, but when i type on my Model M I can't really feel the actuation point so much as hearing it. I can definitely feel it get lighter after clicking, but I can't feel the bump unless I press slowly.
I definitely feel a "bump" just like on MX blues. Although it is more towards the bottom of the keystroke. Order some replacement springs from here: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/items.main/parentcat/33739/subcatid/0/id/112467 and see how it feels.
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Model M's aren't bad but not my preference. I've got two that are rarely used as I prefer linear switches for both gaming and typing. If they're not your thing, they're not your thing. No harm done.
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Model M's aren't bad but not my preference. I've got two that are rarely used as I prefer linear switches for both gaming and typing. If they're not your thing, they're not your thing. No harm done.
Well said!
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I bought myself a Model M, after hearing that everyone thinks it's amazing. After getting it, I don't find it amazing. The "click" of the spring is a nice noise, but I don't think it's as tactile as mx blues. What do you guys think? What makes this keyboard so awesome?
You are not alone. I felt like I was typing on a fisher price toy, and at any moment the keyboard would start flashing and stuff would shoot out. Not sure why, but that's how it felt to me. I ended up giving it away to a close friend of mine since I wasn't using it, and you would think I gave him a vagina from how much he enjoys typing on it. Everyone is different I guess.
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I bought myself a Model M, after hearing that everyone thinks it's amazing. After getting it, I don't find it amazing. The "click" of the spring is a nice noise, but I don't think it's as tactile as mx blues. What do you guys think? What makes this keyboard so awesome?
You are not alone. I felt like I was typing on a fisher price toy, and at any moment the keyboard would start flashing and stuff would shoot out. Not sure why, but that's how it felt to me. I ended up giving it away to a close friend of mine since I wasn't using it, and you would think I gave him a vagina from how much he enjoys typing on it. Everyone is different I guess.
That's some funny **** right there buddy! You just about made me choke.
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Thanks. What makes it better is that I am dead serious.
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Oh, I believe you. Still funny as hell.
I like Ms but I like your blatant honesty and sense of humor more.
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I'm in love with my model m that I've had for a week and I can't believe it took me a year on geek hack to own one. As with any switch you need to give it time to appreciate it. if you don't like it then you don't like it, I wouldn't call it hype because there isn't any advertising, people in this community genuinely like their buckling springs.
it is also affordable; $50-60, plus $20 if you want to add a soarer converter. pretty cheap compared to other keyboards. and if anything it is an essential item to have in a collection.
if you aren't feeling the bump/tactile then maybe something is wrong with it because both of mine are very tactile....and loud.
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I think the "hype" comes from people who love M's praising the hell out of it as if its the end-all keyboard. And it may be for them but not necessary for others. You'll notice this can be applied to just about anything:
I don't really get the hype of a <insert whatever>
Accept the fact that this all comes down to PERSONAL PREFERENCE and move on.
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And, of course, if you are really serious, the Model F is the battleship where the Model M is the light cruiser.
Don't talk about hype until you have taken one apart.
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I like buckling spring switches, and I have a model M. Nonetheless, I don't see why people like model M more than Unicomp. If I buy one more buckling spring keyboard, I would buy a Unicomp keyboard.
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I like buckling spring switches, and I have a model M. Nonetheless, I don't see why people like model M more than Unicomp. If I buy one more buckling spring keyboard, I would buy a Unicomp keyboard.
Of course. If I had an Unicomp, I would buy a model M for another buckling spring keyboard.
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Some dudes like weeners. Some don't. YMMV. XD
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I like buckling spring switches, and I have a model M. Nonetheless, I don't see why people like model M more than Unicomp. If I buy one more buckling spring keyboard, I would buy a Unicomp keyboard.
Of course. If I had an Unicomp, I would buy a model M for another buckling spring keyboard.
Oops!! That makes sense, heh.
What I wanted to say was I don't see why people prefer old IBM model Ms more than Unicomp keyboards even though Unicomp keyboards are new.
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The Model M is old and solid, that's why the old fat guys love it.
Whatever else you say or think about ancient IBM iron, the word "hype" is not appropriate.
That is what you say about everything else being built today.
Why? Hipsters love this stuff, especially typewriters.
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Please direct your attention to my profile, and you will understand. Buckling springs are overhyped.
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Some dudes like weeners. Some don't. YMMV. XD
I like 'em grilled with mustard and onions.
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I love my Model M's and F's -- I think a lot of it may be a bit hyped, but you can make a case that the Model M/F are much, much more solidly built. The only real advantage from the newer, non-mechanical keyboards are their cost. Some of my enjoyment of these older keyboards is in my head -- but where else is going to be? People can drink water that was percolated through volcanic rock and 'taste' the difference, and that's their right. Also, they're not that expensive, considering how durable they are.
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I'm more about the feel that the sound, that and durability. The Model M feels great to me, and is pretty hard to kill.
I used one for a long time at work, but I gave it up eventually for a Leopold with MX Blues at work and a Noppoo choc mini + gold touch num pad with browns at home. Sometimes I have to work with MacOS and you just cant get by without a meta key. You can map redundant keys to get around it but I dont want to give any up.I'm keeping my big bolt moded model M but im selling off my Model M SSK, and probably my spare keycap sets. I have a northgate gold label I like, but its controller is going out, going to do a controller swap on it, I have a teensy for it. Unfortunately I have to have a meta key, so I wont likely go back to my northgate, but I do love that board, its my favorite, mechanical alps and double shot caps, my first keybaord ever, had it before I knew how cool it was.
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I'm more about the feel that the sound, that and durability. The Model M feels great to me, and is pretty hard to kill.
I used one for a long time at work, but I gave it up eventually for a Leopold with MX Blues at work and a Noppoo choc mini + gold touch num pad with browns at home. Sometimes I have to work with MacOS and you just cant get by without a meta key. You can map redundant keys to get around it but I dont want to give any up.I'm keeping my big bolt moded model M but im selling off my Model M SSK, and probably my spare keycap sets. I have a northgate gold label I like, but its controller is going out, going to do a controller swap on it, I have a teensy for it. Unfortunately I have to have a meta key, so I wont likely go back to my northgate, but I do love that board, its my favorite, mechanical alps and double shot caps, my first keybaord ever, had it before I knew how cool it was.
You can send the ssk to me :D
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Yeah, is the SSK going to be posted for sale here? I'm interested in one myself.
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I have to have a meta key, so I wont likely go back to my northgate, but I do love that board, its my favorite, mechanical alps and double shot caps, my first keybaord ever, had it before I knew how cool it was.
If it is an Omnikey with Function keys left as well as top, re-map the left F10 to Windows/Meta/etc. It is in just about the right place anyway.
That is what I do with the F-122.
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I think those of us who love the model M so much are people who touch type, type fast, and find we can fly so much faster on the model M. I gain about 10 wpm minimum on a model M, which, if you're getting paid per word, means a lot.
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OT, but why do people refer to typing as touch typing? That insinuates that there is some proper form of typing other than touch typing.
You either know how to type or not. There is no in between. If you have to look at the keys you don't know how to type.
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Touch typing dictates that certain fingers are used for certain keys.
I can touch type.
I also have another methodology where certain fingers press some keys some of the times and other keys other times. I can do this not looking at the keyboard, but it is not touch typing per se.
Then there is hunt and peck.
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There are people out there I would classify as typists based on speed (i.e. they instinctively know key positions because are going much faster than hunt and peck), but they still need to look at the keyboard while doing it, and/or they do not use proper hand/finger position. To me touch typing means using all ten fingers properly, and not looking down. Anything other than that is just typing.
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There are people out there I would classify as typists based on speed (i.e. they instinctively know key positions because are going much faster than hunt and peck), but they still need to look at the keyboard while doing it, and/or they do not use proper hand/finger position. To me touch typing means using all ten fingers properly, and not looking down. Anything other than that is just typing.
That was me for years until I sat down and decided to learn the proper way. I still think if you have to look you don't know how to type properly. I freely admitted that until I actually learned.
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I don't see why people prefer old IBM model Ms more than Unicomp keyboards even though Unicomp keyboards are new.
Because the Model M has a higher build quality. New doesn't necessarily mean better.
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Typing on a M feels sturdier than any cherrymx board I've ever used, however I would never use a M to game on. Model Ms are tanks LOL.
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Also, although I didn't like the feel of the board and gave it away to my friend, I will admit that it sounds better than MX Blues. In my opinion, it sounds great, maybe even better than the Topre thock I love so much, but it does get distracting sometimes.
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I don't see why people prefer old IBM model Ms more than Unicomp keyboards even though Unicomp keyboards are new.
Because the Model M has a higher build quality. New doesn't necessarily mean better.
I agree with the idea that new doesn't necessarily mean better, but are you really sure the model M has a higher build quality?
Can you compare one by one, and explain why it has a higher build quality?
I'm not sure what makes Unicomp keyboards have a lower build quality. Actually, I don't like Ms key layout. I use winkey very often.
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they are so tiring to type on... I cant type on them for so long. had a 1985 and 1995 ones.. ended up giving them away. also way to big for my desk.
apart from that, i feel like every keyboard enthusiasts should at least own or owned a model M.
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they are so tiring to type on
The Model F is far easier on the fingers, besides being better in every other way, except for layout, price, and weight.
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I'm not sure what makes Unicomp keyboards have a lower build quality.
Compared to IBM Model M's, Unicomp cases tend to creak, have more flex, exhibit cosmetic imperfections on the surface of the board, and flashing around some of the key caps.
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they are so tiring to type on
The Model F is far easier on the fingers, besides being better in every other way, except for layout, price, and weight.
I agree, although I like the weight of the Model F. It makes me feel like I'm typing on something more solidly built.
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I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex. They don't squeak because they're made from different plastics than new Unicomps (old IBM cases are made from PVC which I think is no longer allowed to be used in keyboards, new Unicomp cases are made from ABS), the build and fit quality is the same. Injection marks are as visible on classic IBM keyboards as on Unicomps. Of course there is a huge difference in quality control of the Big Blue and small Kentucky company but I wouldn't say the two products differ colossally.
Now comparison to non BS keyboards. Like it or not but any Costar keyboard will have less flex than Model M, not to mention Topre which is built even better. The switches while super nice to type on (my personal favourite in terms of sound and feel) are inconsistent. They sound and feel very different across the board, it's noticeable in all IBM/Lexmark/Unicomp keyboards, Model Ms and Model Fs (Model Fs are even worse in this respect - and I had plenty of them - ATs, Terminal, XTs so I can tell you that, also it is least apparent in Unicomps).
Last may be a personal thing but I type faster on Cherry MX Blue (which I think feels like a cheap rip-off of BS and sounds even worse than that) than on Buckling Spring.
So all in all, IBMs and Unicomps are awesome keyboards but definitely not perfect, and in many respects are worse than other keyboards.
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I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex.
I think one of the things that often isn't acknowledged is that build quality from a presentation standpoint is different than build quality from a durability standpoint. A lot of well engineered things can last despite looking flimsy. A lot of solid looking things can have design weaknesses.
How many Cherry's based board have you heard about with keys double registering or broken USB ports? A metal case doesn't make a keyboard last. I also laugh at Cherry's claim that the switches last 50 million presses, as people I know who have these Cherry boards seem to need to do a lot more maintenance just to keep them working than a rubber dome owner.
How many Model M keyboards are working from over 15 years ago? Even though the top of the keyboard is covered in a flimsy plastic that reminds me of the dashboard of a 1985 Toyota Celica, I am confident this board will last. The case may flex, but I have yet to see flex kill a keyboard. Also, flex is minimized when it is flat on a desk, and I don't see any other way to use a Model M.
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Well, everyone likes different things. It is not surprising to me at all that there are some people who do not care for it. Also, part of the appeal is the whole retro/vintage thing.
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I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype. First of all their cases DO flex.
I think one of the things that often isn't acknowledged is that build quality from a presentation standpoint is different than build quality from a durability standpoint. A lot of well engineered things can last despite looking flimsy. A lot of solid looking things can have design weaknesses.
How many Cherry's based board have you heard about with keys double registering or broken USB ports? A metal case doesn't make a keyboard last. I also laugh at Cherry's claim that the switches last 50 million presses, as people I know who have these Cherry boards seem to need to do a lot more maintenance just to keep them working than a rubber dome owner.
How many Model M keyboards are working from over 15 years ago? Even though the top of the keyboard is covered in a flimsy plastic that reminds me of the dashboard of a 1985 Toyota Celica, I am confident this board will last. The case may flex, but I have yet to see flex kill a keyboard. Also, flex is minimized when it is flat on a desk, and I don't see any other way to use a Model M.
I've seen many Model Ms broken due to rivets falling off the case. So I've seen rotten membranes failing to register whole rows of keys, also in Model Ms. The oldest Cherry I've had was made in 1989 and was working fine. The oldest IBM I had was the Model F from 1985 was working fine too, although it needed cleaning and re-lubing because most of the keys were sticky. The oldest IBM I have now is 1390120 from 1986 and despite having few rivets missing it works well. I haven't cleaned it yet and it's definitely usable board, but... I'm not going to use it. Because it feels slow and heavy, also misses windows keys (I'm ok remapping CMD to Alt, but then it makes it hard reach to type Polish characters when I have Ctrl mapped to Alt, of course I always have Caps Lock remapped to Control, I'm used to that since Amiga days).
We're not comparing classic toyota celica to modern honda accord here. We're comparing 1980s Merc G class to modern Merc SL class. Sure the G class will last longer, it will give you **** lots of fun while driving, but will not be as easy and nice to drive as new Merc SL, neither it will run as fast.
Please keep in mind I absolutely love all my IBM keyboards and Buckling Spring is my favourite switch.
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I think the reputation of the Model M is partially a result of the rubber dome revolution. In the early days of PC computing people were more concerned with adapting to this new PC thing than any esoteric interest in the perfect keyboard. As PC's became common place, the cost cutting drive pushed manufacturers to the rubber dome keyboard. The average user never knew any other type of keyboard and didn't care to. Some of the folks who had been around for a while began to compare these rubber domes to the keyboards of yore and the keyboard cult was born. Why the Model M became the poster child for the perfect keyboard can probably be attributed to three things:
1. the buckling spring look and feel that originated with the original PC (the IBM PC)
2. the Model M's durability and longevity
3. the shear volume of Model M's that were produced and still survive (see 2)
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I love Model Ms and they're definitely one of my favourite keyboards of all, but saying they're the best built or longest lasting is definitely blind following a hype.
Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?
First of all their cases DO flex.
I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.
They don't squeak because they're made from different plastics than new Unicomps (old IBM cases are made from PVC which I think is no longer allowed to be used in keyboards, new Unicomp cases are made from ABS)
Chicony cases have a lot of flex and creak like crazy, which is one of the reasons their build quality is considered cheap.
Injection marks are as visible on classic IBM keyboards as on Unicomps.
There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:
Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.
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I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.
There has been a lot of debate about these case materials. The F cases (in my opinion, others have argued with me) are a much harder and more brittle plastic than the M cases. There is very little flex because the back of the case is a metal pan (except for the F AT, whose front case clips make for a nightmare for dis-assembly) but they are prone to breaking at the corners. Also, there is a surface layer that can be unsightly if it peels up.
The Model M plastic - in my opinion - is softer yet tougher, and what you lose in flex you more than make up for in resistance to breaking.
I cannot speak to the Unicomp construction, because I have only owned a few for a short time, and never compared them side-by-side.
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I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.
There has been a lot of debate about these case materials. The F cases (in my opinion, others have argued with me) are a much harder and more brittle plastic than the M cases. There is very little flex because the back of the case is a metal pan (except for the F AT, whose front case clips make for a nightmare for dis-assembly) but they are prone to breaking at the corners. Also, there is a surface layer that can be unsightly if it peels up.
The Model M plastic - in my opinion - is softer yet tougher, and what you lose in flex you more than make up for in resistance to breaking.
I cannot speak to the Unicomp construction, because I have only owned a few for a short time, and never compared them side-by-side.
I can't really speak to the brittleness of Model F cases, although I can say I've put mine through its paces while attempting to wipe off whatever residue was residing on the surface (as mentioned in a previous thread) and didn't notice any cracks before or after a rigorous cleaning, thankfully. But even if the Model M is more durable in that regard, neither board creak. I've heard others praise Unicomp boards, but having owned one for some time, compared to my IBM made Model M's, I'll just say it. I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.
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I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.
And they are selling their products for half, in 2013 dollars, what IBM was charging 25 years ago, in 1988 dollars.
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I think their build quality is fairly shoddy comparatively. Their quality control seems relatively slim.
And they are selling their products for half, in 2013 dollars, what IBM was charging 25 years ago, in 1988 dollars.
Perhaps, but that doesn't mean people wouldn't be willing to pay more for a higher quality product. They do all the time.
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Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?
I somehow get feeling that you do. Any time someone writes any words of criticism towards Model M.
I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.
Yes, so do Costar keyboards and Realforces. To be honest even less flex than Model M, not even mentioning Unicomp.
There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:
Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.
Yet I've never seen it on either Filco or Realforce or even el cheapo QFR.
My advice is to look outside. This is not the 80s any more and other guys are also making decent keyboards. Model M while still holding really well, may still be king for some of us (even for me as I mentioned that earlier) is not perfect, in some regards, other keyboards are better than it.
The worst part of Model M is that it's just plain old and often to get it working properly you need to bolt mod it, not to mention about cleaning 20 years worth of dust and debris, sometimes fighting off the rust... Yes I know there are some good working boards available still, but they become harder and more expensive to get every day. Out of many Model Ms I had, none of them felt brand new out of the box (even NIB Space Saving board had many broken rivets), and even when I finally got one Model M (1391401) which had all rivets in place it was so dirty and keys were sticking I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it. Maybe I'm yet to find the perfect Model M, but while looking for one, I'm going to enjoy modern and decently built keyboards, even if I don't enjoy them as much.
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Did someone in this thread claim IBM Model M's were the best built or longest lasting?
I somehow get feeling that you do. Any time someone writes any words of criticism towards Model M.
Your feelings are irrelevant to the facts, as I've never stated in this or any other thread that Model M's are either the best built or longest lasting keyboard. In fact, there have been several criticisms of the Model M in this very thread without so much as a peep from me. It's only when someone made a comparison between new Unicomp's and the Model M that I chimed in.
I'm not sure who you're replying to. I was comparing IBM Model M cases to Unicomp cases. Unicomp's cases have more flex than IBM's variant, but for the most part IBM Model M's exhibit very little flex, and IBM Model F's even less so.
Yes, so do Costar keyboards and Realforces. To be honest even less flex than Model M, not even mentioning Unicomp.
You're attacking statements that weren't made; a straw man argument. First you stated that Model M cases "DO flex", as if someone claimed they don't. I stated that Unicomp cases have more flex than Model M cases. Not just a little. A lot. Now you're bringing up Costar and Realforce as if that has some sort of relevance to the post I was originally replying to. Your comments aren't even in context. Again, I was comparing Model M's to Unicomp's, not Realforce or Costar boards. And for the record, I don't think anyone has ever, or would ever, associate the extremely marginal case flex of an assembled Model M with something cheap.
There are surface defects in the plastic of Unicomp's black cases that look a bit like smudge marks, and these aren't visible on IBM Model M13's:
Then, of course, there's the key cap flashing which isn't visible on any of my IBM Model M key caps.
Yet I've never seen it on either Filco or Realforce or even el cheapo QFR.
And how are Filco, Realforce, and QFR boards even remotely relevant to the context of the post I was replying to? My comments were specifically directed at another poster who inquired as to why people prefer Model M's over Unicomp's, and then went on to inquire as to why I felt Model M's had a higher build quality than Unicomp boards. They weren't asking about Realforce, Filco, Costar, or QFR. They were asking me to compare Model M's to Unicomp's.
My advice is to look outside. This is not the 80s any more and other guys are also making decent keyboards.
Another straw man argument. No one said there aren't companies making decent keyboards.
Model M while still holding really well, may still be king for some of us (even for me as I mentioned that earlier) is not perfect, in some regards, other keyboards are better than it.
Yet another straw man. No one claimed there aren't keyboards with a higher build quality than the Model M. My contention is that Unicomp boards aren't one of them.
The worst part of Model M is that it's just plain old and often to get it working properly you need to bolt mod it
Every Model M that I (and myriad other people) have owned has worked perfectly without a bolt mod(and there are numerous other Model M owners who can attest to that), and a lot of Model M's look relatively new with a bit of clean up. Granted, I have no doubt some Model M's would greatly benefit from a bolt mod, but acting as if most of them frequently need to be bolt modded to work properly is simply fallacious.
Yes I know there are some good working boards available still, but they become harder and more expensive to get every day.
Which has nothing to do with build quality.
Out of many Model Ms I had, none of them felt brand new out of the box (even NIB Space Saving board had many broken rivets), and even when I finally got one Model M (1391401) which had all rivets in place it was so dirty and keys were sticking I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it.
Then it seems you invested in a lemon. A lot of owners, myself included, don't have problems with sticking keys and aren't bothered with a little clean up. If you are, then that's you. But acting as if most most Model M's are dirty, malfunctioning rust buckets that need a bolt mod to work properly is a fallacious representation.
Maybe I'm yet to find the perfect Model M, but while looking for one, I'm going to enjoy modern and decently built keyboards, even if I don't enjoy them as much.
If you're expecting to find a Model M in pristine and perfect condition then you're probably looking for an NIB, to which you're probably going to pay original Model M prices. However, of all the Model M's I've owned, most look and work great, even if they're not new.
If you prefer modern keyboards to the Model M, great. I'm happy for you, but misrepresenting Model M's in the process only undermines your credibility.
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Wow, sometimes we take our keybord preferences a little too personally, eh?
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I had to break them all off and do bolt mod just to properly clean and re-lube it.
What do you lube? How do you lube it? Are you referring to a tiny dot where the clips holds the stabilizer wire?
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To each there own - I HATE reds and there are people who search them out exclusively.
I like a heavy keyboard. I type and program a lot at work and unfortunately buckling springs are too loud in the cubicle setting (when commonplace keyboards are so quiet) so I have had to switch to mx clear.
Long story short it's just preference. I have an MX Green board and I feel like it's "the mx blue I can type on"