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geekhack Community => Input Devices => Topic started by: CaptCarrot on Wed, 15 October 2008, 07:26:56

Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: CaptCarrot on Wed, 15 October 2008, 07:26:56: I recently come across these and am thinking as an alternative to my MX Revolution fow when I am not gaming.

I quite like the sound of the new optical ones, but have heard that the bearings are now plastic rather than the old metal. If the balls are the same size as the older ones (2.25" i think), would it be possible, do you think, to butcher the 2 together, or would it be too much trouble for little/no gain?
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: lodc on Tue, 23 December 2008, 23:52:08: Quote from: CaptCarrot;9522
I recently come across these and am thinking as an alternative to my MX Revolution fow when I am not gaming.

I quite like the sound of the new optical ones, but have heard that the bearings are now plastic rather than the old metal. If the balls are the same size as the older ones (2.25" i think), would it be possible, do you think, to butcher the 2 together, or would it be too much trouble for little/no gain?

I think you will have little luck combining these two, they have very different mechanics. The older Turbo mouse was sort of quasi-optical, the ball's turning made the donut shaped bearings it rested on (one for H and one for V) turn, and these had black lines painted on them which an optical sensor picked up. This made the ball easy to replace with other round things of approximate size, 8 balls from certain gauges of pool tables worked reasonably well. Although the bearings were made from metal, the lines on them would scratch/wear somehow off over time, the ball would wear a grove in the middle of them, and the bearings would get all kinds of hair and strange things caught up in and wound around them. This gunk would eventually get in between the bearing's painted surface and the optical reader, making movement erratic. You could clean them (had to regularly) but eventually the casing would get loose, and the body screws were only meant to come in and out of the plastic so many times, etc.

The new model is more of a true optical system, the ball itself is sparkly and there is a single sensor area in the bottom that reads the sparkles somehow to register movement. So you cannot replace the ball with just anything that fits in the hole :( Although the overall construction of the newer model is definitely cheaper feeling, in practice the new design seems more durable. You don't lose accuracy as the bearing fail/lose their lines/get cruddy. Yes, the ball now rests on tiny cheap bearings of a material that doesn't look like metal to me, not sure what it is exactly. However, these no longer really matter so long as they allow the ball to spin, which they seem to do really well. The action on the ball is much lighter and more nimble than the original. This may seem kind of gross, but I actually noticed that as your hand "funk" builds up in the bearings, they don't even turn so much as just let the ball slip.. i clean them regularly but it seems impossible to keep them very clean. maybe collecting hand grease was part of the design.

Sorry to ramble on. I think you will enjoy either the older or newer model, they are both great devices. I went through 2 of the original turbo mice over a span of about 4 years, very heavy use. One failed when the bearings just worn down to the point where the action had too many dead spots to deal with. The other had cord issues where the wires came off the board and i soldered them back (poorly) on so many times that there just wasn't much left to solder to. I've owned my current generation for over three years and it is even better than new.. these definitely need a break in to be smooth (maybe need proper grease build up? i don't like to think about it heh).

One to avoid is the "Kensington Turbo Mouse Pro USB Trackball with 6 Direct Web Buttons USB for Windows or Mac - 64214" as seen here: http://www.amazon.com/Kensington-Trackball-Direct-Buttons-Windows/dp/B00006B8NS
It was made in between the good old ones and the good new ones, apparently still for sale. I used it for about a year before the current design came out. Maybe I got a "bad one" but it never worked smoothly for me, never just felt right like the others. Also the 6 extra buttons are useless and the scroll dial is in a ridiculous place. The scroll dial on the current model is excellent after break in.

well, again, i've rambled more than enough, good luck and hope you enjoy a kensington trackball as much as I have.

one more thing - for some types of games, the kensington will give you a unique advantage. Because the ball has decent mass, you can give it a spin and let go.. with a little practice this becomes natural and accurate. its been a while since i played fps type games, but back in the days of Descent I could do tight flips and spins that no mouse user could come close to :)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: megarat on Thu, 25 December 2008, 00:45:13: Quote from: lodc;16014
The older Turbo mouse was sort of quasi-optical, the ball's turning made the donut shaped bearings it rested on (one for H and one for V) turn, and these had black lines painted on them which an optical sensor picked up.

For reference's sake, this mechanism is called an encoder wheel. They've been used for decades, sometimes optically, sometimes magnetically. (I have an original Atari Tempest arcade game, circa 1984, which uses an encoder wheel for the spinner.)

Quote from: lodc;16014
Yes, the ball now rests on tiny cheap bearings of a material that doesn't look like metal to me, not sure what it is exactly.

Those are jewel bearings, as seen in laptops from the 90's and thereabouts. As an owner of one of these Kensington trackballs (two, if you count the one I use at work), I agree with lodc in that while they feels less tank-like than its predecessors, they work just fine, perhaps even better.

So there is a decrease in build quality, but a substantial improvement in design quality. The scroll wheel is worth the sacrifice in build quality alone (and if you think it's too choppy, you can remove the magnet from the interior which will make it run much more smoothly).
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: CaptCarrot on Tue, 30 December 2008, 16:42:12: cheers for the heads up...

pity you can't replace the balls on the newer ones with ones that are just lying about but hey-ho, I spose you can't have everything.
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: Biggs on Sun, 15 February 2009, 22:41:00: I just got one of the older Expert Mouse 5.0 #64215 with a serial-to-PS/2 cable.

(http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/32/b4/0d38_1.JPG)

I then plugged it in to a split PS/2-to-USB cable below,

(http://i1.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/30/08/ebac_1.JPG)

but it's not being detected by WinXP SP3 on my Thinkpad X61. Is it because the mouse is still sending RS-232 or serial signals? Would I need a serial-to-USB cable instead?
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: bhtooefr on Sun, 15 February 2009, 23:40:15: It shouldn't be sending RS-232 signals... anyway... X61... got an UltraBase?

If you do, you can at least see if the thing is working, although you'll have to manually add the driver. Serial port on the base is COM1.
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: zwmalone on Mon, 16 February 2009, 00:23:26: It may also be the adapter. I have one of those cheap adapters that hasn't worked since I got it. I recommend replacing it with a Belkin PS/2 to USB adapter (about $15)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: Biggs on Tue, 17 February 2009, 12:40:00: I tried it on an old PC with a serial and PS/2 port and it works on both ports but only after installing the latest MouseWare 6.2.2 driver.

However, when I put it back on my X61 (MouseWare 6.2.2 is also installed), it's still not being detected; even after trying out 2 different PS/2-to-USB converters.

Can anyone recommend a proven PS/2-to-USB converter that will work?
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: zwmalone on Tue, 17 February 2009, 15:43:52: This one: http://catalog.belkin.com/IWCatProductPage.process?Product_Id=156482
It works with everything, even high powered draw devices like Ms (and possibly the expert mouse)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: itlnstln on Tue, 17 February 2009, 15:45:46: This is the one I use at home, and it works great with my Model Ms.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10404&cs_id=1040401&p_id=173&seq=1&format=2
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: bhtooefr on Thu, 19 February 2009, 07:40:03: Hmm.

I wonder... the Mouseware driver may not know to look for the device as a USB HID device, only as a PS/2 or serial device.

In other words, what you need isn't a PS/2->USB adapter, what you need is an RS-232->USB adapter, as that will show up as a COM port. Then again, it probably will show up outside of the COM1-4 range, so you might need to have the UltraBase (which has a hardware COM port at COM1.)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: Biggs on Fri, 20 February 2009, 00:06:28: Quote from: bhtooefr;22112
Hmm.

I wonder... the Mouseware driver may not know to look for the device as a USB HID device, only as a PS/2 or serial device.

In other words, what you need isn't a PS/2->USB adapter, what you need is an RS-232->USB adapter, as that will show up as a COM port. Then again, it probably will show up outside of the COM1-4 range, so you might need to have the UltraBase (which has a hardware COM port at COM1.)

Unfortunately, the latest drivers doesn't support RS-232.

http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622 (http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: hotswank on Mon, 23 February 2009, 14:22:03: Quote from: lodc;16014
One to avoid is the "Kensington Turbo Mouse Pro USB Trackball with 6 Direct Web Buttons USB for Windows or Mac - 64214"

It's the only choice if you need to switch between Mac OS 9.2.2 and OS X on a daily basis because the latest MouseWorks driver for the Expert Mouse Optical (which indeed is best) is not native OS 9.2.2 compatible and the older MouseWorks for the Pro version is, but in turn does not recognize the better Expert Mouse optical... bummer.
Title: pinouts for kensington trackball
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 13:22:43: here is a schematic for serial to usb interface. just for your info.

http://pinouts.ru/SerialPortsCables/usb_serial_adapter_pinout.shtml

this is a very informative site.
Title: if this does not come up just google pinout for kensington expert mouse
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 13:34:27: http://pinouts.ru/InputCables/kensington_expertmouse_pinout.shtml
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 13:36:26: are you still using this mouse?
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 13:38:05: Quote from: Biggs;22209
Unfortunately, the latest drivers doesn't support RS-232.

http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622 (http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622)

biggs, are you still using this mouse? i have one also but have to make my own serial cable, and may try to write my own drivers.
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: Biggs on Fri, 06 March 2009, 13:44:36: Not anymore. I emailed Kensington tech support and they said it would not work with any kind of adapter.
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 18:47:55: Quote from: Biggs;22209
Unfortunately, the latest drivers doesn't support RS-232.

http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622 (http://us.kensington.com/html/1466.html#mw622)

Quote from: Biggs;23749
Not anymore. I emailed Kensington tech support and they said it would not work with any kind of adapter.

what are you going to do with kensington if I may ask? want to sell or trade?
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: Biggs on Fri, 06 March 2009, 20:36:41: Already sold it. :)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: duke57 on Fri, 06 March 2009, 21:15:19: Quote from: Biggs;23792
Already sold it. :)

oh well, thanks for the reply. It is a shame that Kensington did not continue to support the serial mouse. I bought an Epson RX680 I believe the model number is from a vendor called Ink products. http://www.inkproducts.com a plug if I may, and I had the original epson stylus pro back from the mid 90's. As the story goes, this epson rx680 is sold with external ink supplies from ink products. I had asked them if they sold any solutions for the epson stylus pro. Back then it was 720 X 720 DPI. And the kind lady there succinctly told me, and I quote, "go forward, never backward", end quote. That applies to some instances and products but not to all. Well the next day, 7 days ago to be exact, i threw it away in the garbage. The, uh stylus Pro that is, so, my point here is that maybe it is time to toss the old expert track ball away. I just have a hard time because it is in like brand new condition. Well, since we are like a vapor, and are lives, extremely brief, going forward may be the wise thing to do. Enough chat. Have a great weekend.. mike
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 06 March 2009, 23:00:54: The thing is, mice aren't exactly hard to support. You should at the *VERY* least get the ball and two buttons going, given a generic serial mouse driver, and an FTDI-based USB to serial adapter.

Throwing out good hardware just isn't wise, IMO.

Printers, yeah, consumables run out quickly, if you want an old printer, you'll want something that was high end, or at least supported really well. (LaserJet 4 accessories are still really easy to find, even this late in the thing's life... also, it's still fairly easy to find ink - even cheaply, in a B&M store - for my Canon portable inkjets, even though they're only one printhead design removed from the earliest of them.)
Title: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: megarat on Sun, 15 March 2009, 16:13:40: I use the optical Kensington Expert mouse at both home and work, and while I love it as an interface, prospective buyers should be warned that this trackball sucks down a lot of juice from the USB line. Some sources even claim that this trackball requires more than twice as much power as a standard low-power USB 1.0 device.

This trackball is well-documented to cause problems with some devices (including the original Tactile Pro keyboard (see this (http://matias.ca/tactilepro/support/index.php#kensingtonTM) for more info)). I find that I need to work around this handicap all the time. I have my trackball piggy-backed off my HHKB Pro 2, and there are very few peripherals I can plug into the other port on the back of the keyboard. For example, some flash drives work, but not all. USB SD/CF/etc. memory card adapters won't work period.

(This is on a Mac Mini, BTW, as hardware platform may make a difference, w/r/t how much power they provide.)
Title: Re: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: CaptCarrot on Fri, 06 June 2014, 15:05:12: [attachimg=1]

Quote from: Biggs on Sun, 15 February 2009, 22:41:00
I just got one of the older Expert Mouse 5.0 #64215 with a serial-to-PS/2 cable.

Show Image
(http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/001/32/b4/0d38_1.JPG)

I then plugged it in to a split PS/2-to-USB cable below,

Show Image
(http://i1.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/30/08/ebac_1.JPG)

but it's not being detected by WinXP SP3 on my Thinkpad X61. Is it because the mouse is still sending RS-232 or serial signals? Would I need a serial-to-USB cable instead?

I don't normally resurrect the dead, but seeing as I am the OP and I do have some pertinent information.

I recently picked up and old Expert Mouse 5.0 #64215 myself of ebay for £0.99 GBP (plus postage) and had exactly the same problems mentioned above. No serial port and a PS/2 to USB adapter (that works for absolutely everything else I have) didn't work.

Anyway, I just got a Serial to USB adapter and can confirm...

[attachimg=2]

So just in case anyone else is interested in one of these trackballs, they do work.
Title: Re: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: blueSmoke on Sat, 07 June 2014, 02:55:31: How did you increase the DPI for the modern monitors? I thought these are 200/400 DPI!!!

What serial to USB converter brand you used? These supposed to be very picky as I have few that hit-or-miss.

P.S. Nice idea.
Title: Re: Kensington Expert/Turbo Mouse
Post by: CaptCarrot on Sat, 07 June 2014, 13:47:18: Quote from: blueSmoke on Sat, 07 June 2014, 02:55:31
How did you increase the DPI for the modern monitors? I thought these are 200/400 DPI!!!
Pass - I haven't fiddled with the settings yet.

This might be the most important step with any USB/RS232 adapter, but I went into the settings and made it COM1 (started out as COM3) before connecting the trackball.

Once connected to the adapter I re-installed the Kensington Mouseworks software (in compatibility mode for XP) and run as administrator.

When I restarted, windows found a "Microsoft Serial Mouse".

Running the Mouseworks shortcut just brings me up with the standard Mouse configuration panel, but with an extra Kensington Tab. Unfortunately, under that tab it says no Kensington Devices or Drivers Detected.

There is some Microsoft software out there to configure the extra 2 buttons, but I haven't played with that either yet. I just have 2 left and 2 right buttons ATM.

Quote from: blueSmoke on Sat, 07 June 2014, 02:55:31
What serial to USB converter brand you used? These supposed to be very picky as I have few that hit-or-miss.

P.S. Nice idea.

I am using the StarTech ICUSB2321F - 1 Port USB to Serial RS232 Adapter Cable with Com Retention (http://uk.startech.com/Cards-Adapters/Serial-Cards-Adapters/1-Port-USB-Serial-RS232-Adapter-Cable~ICUSB2321F)

This is the FTDI chipset version, they also make Texas Instruments and Prolific versions but from the limited research I have done apparently FTDI is the best.