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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Narcix on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:39:39

Title: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Narcix on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:39:39
Hello, any linux user 'round here? Can you tell me something about your experience with it, and how it is compared to windows? thx
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:41:02
[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:41:33
You can't play many retail games on linux.

That's it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:45:41
Use it exclusively on my computer, have to use windows at work and the list of things I like about it is extremely small. What kind of operating system doesn't even have a decent package manager?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:52:13
Does AutoCAD run on Linux?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: jwaz on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:54:28
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Does+AutoCAD+run+on+Linux%3F
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:54:54
Does AutoCAD run on Linux?

No.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: lcs on Thu, 25 July 2013, 11:59:50
it depends on what you use your computer for.

i have two boxes, one with linux that i use for everything but gaming.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 25 July 2013, 12:08:45
Yes, I use linux, along with Mac OS X (my primary OS) and Windows 7. Regarding linux, I started with RedHat 6, then a RedHat clone (CentOS 6.4). However, RedHat and its clones are not as easy to use as Ubuntu and its clones, and they do not have as many apps in the repositories. More recently, I  switched to Linux Mint 13 LTS 64-bit, which is based on Ubuntu. I use KDE 4.10 as my desktop environment.

Linux Mint/KDE is just as easy to use as Windows 7 or Mac OS X, and the OS and most apps are free. Linux, like OS X, has the added advantage of the command line, which is available simply by opening a terminal. I really enjoy using linux, and it is essential for some of my molecular modeling applications.

However, linux has some drawbacks, such as a lack of software that is equivalent to applications that I commonly use on the Mac or in Windows. For example, I have not found any scientific graphics and statistics software for linux that is as good or user friendly as programs such as GraphPad Prism, which is available for Mac and Windows. Because of this, I use Mac OS X most of the time, and I use linux for things like molecular dynamics simulations. I use Windows as little as possible, but sometimes it is unavoidable. If I were a gamer, I suppose I would use Windows quite a lot, at least for games, which are not as widely available for Mac or linux.

 
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: lcs on Thu, 25 July 2013, 12:12:15
dota 2 in linux now! :P

don't you like R, rjrich?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 25 July 2013, 14:39:21
I just never was able to get on with it as a desktop OS. I never managed to find a window manager GUI that I really got along with. I started off messing around with slackware in like 99 or so, then last few years moved to crunchbang and other specialty distros for NAS or network applications depending. But I mostly use my PCs for gaming, and linux really has not been so good for that use though it looks like its changing some. I do use linux for stuff like fileservers, routers, firewalls... or in other words systems I configure once just leave them alone and let them run and run.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: insilica on Thu, 25 July 2013, 14:49:06
I use Linux exclusively @ home and at work. I use Gentoo on both workstations with i3 tiling manager which essentially reduces my mouse use significantly.

There are many flavours of Linux, if you are just starting out I would recommend one of the Debian flavoured distributions, I.e  Mint or Ubuntu. Linux is not for playing games, I have a Win7 partition for games. Where and  when I need windows (very little) it runs in a Virtualbox.

I have very fine grained control over my machine, down to custom hardened kernels with grsec, something I can't do on mac or windows. I setup the OS to my liking, I.e  not using the software as some corporate muppets intended. I have no antivirus and no firewall (minus ip tables). Never had a virus or hack (minus script kiddies in chrooted environments running in circles)

Linux is really about fine grain control and customisation. If you intend to surf the web and write documents I would recommend it. If you are developer then once you get started you will hate yourself for using Windows. If you are a graphic designer use  Mac (I use a mac mini for art work). If you want to play games forget it, unless you are willing to use a Windows partition. Until Steam picks up on Linux (it is running natively now and has been for a while) I would avoid gaming because it will only lead to frustration.

Edit:
Also the scientific apps that matter to me are available on Linux, I.e. Mathematica for symbolic math and Matlab for rapid prototyping and matrices. Numpty python is cross platform, the one use I have for windows at the moment is Outlook, at work. Managing outlook using Citrix native Linux receiver.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 15:00:18
It's been my desktop OS for 7-8 years. Ubuntu or Mint is pretty easy for anyone to start out on. I used to use Slackware but it's super slow these days. So, Ubuntu 12.04 with Gnome classic (no Unity for me!) Then virtualize everything else in VMware Workstation and you're set!

...and you can run almost any of these distributions in "Live" mode from DVD, USB, CD, to "try before you buy" if you aren't sure you want to actually install a copy on your PC.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:04:32
I use it on my laptop and various computers that I don't want to buy Windows for. It works fine for me, and it's kind of fun to mess around with from time to time. It's usable and easy to get into (depending on the Distro you choose -- I use Linux Mint). Linux game support is tiny, but my laptop can't run games well anyways, so it doesn't matter. For a basic computer that's used for Office stuff, Surfing the Web, and email, then I'd highly recommend it, provided you can stand a very small amount of learning. If you intend to game, though...

Wait a while. I intend to switch to Linux permanently after the game support gets larger, as that's the only thing keeping me on board the Windows train.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: fohat.digs on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:16:17
Does AutoCAD run on Linux?

CAD and database compatibility are the 2 gaping deficiencies of Linux in general. Aside from games, which I don't play.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Hypersphere on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:18:55
dota 2 in linux now! :P

don't you like R, rjrich?

Probably I have not given R a fair chance. From my limited testing, R is incredibly rich with fantastic potential (and it is free!), but it has a steep learning curve. For relatively routine scientific plotting and statistics, I like GraphPad Prism because it is so intuitive it seems to read my mind.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:23:43
Does AutoCAD run on Linux?

CAD and database compatibility are the 2 gaping deficiencies of Linux in general. Aside from games, which I don't play.

There are a few AutoCAD alternatives. It just depends on how compatible you need it to be with the real deal.

http://www.bricsys.com/en_INTL/bricscad/index.jsp
http://sourceforge.net/projects/free-cad/

Games - I don't give a **** about.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:25:17
i use it at work. kde is awesome.

i would not choose to use it at home but i often use photoshop, reason and a few other programs that are not on linux, and since i already have the tools to do what i need i never bothered to learn how to make their open source counterparts do what i need to do. if you don't game and don't need proprietary programs then linux can be a great choice, especially kubuntu and linux mint.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Halvar on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:26:04
I have an Android phone and an Android tablet, so, yes, I do use Linux daily. I also have a router and a NAS that are based on Linux. I like it -- no big problems so far. Android would need an update mechanism like desktop OSs that helps keep the phones secure though. That's definitely a huge drawback of Android.

Oh, and I use geekhack and deskthority, which are probably both hosted on Linux.

On the desktop, I've always been a Windows guy and I see no good reason to swap. It would be like moving to a country where I don't really speak the language or know how social life works.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: funkymeeba on Thu, 25 July 2013, 16:29:54
Mmmm, Linux! I use Funtoo on my home workstation, as well as my work laptop.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: divito on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:33:09
Always been a Windows user, but I've had Ubuntu in a dual-boot for quite some time, just to learn and mess around a little bit (also helps if I have a Windows issue and can fix via Linux). No complaints or issues really, and I'd probably make the switch if game compatibility was ever a ton better.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:41:44
I've tried to use GNU/Linux on the desktop, but it still seems to fragile.

I have a development virtual machine at work running CentOS 6.4 (with GUI), but I tend to SSH in to it (from the Windows host) and do stuff that way.

I do use a Mac at home and my server runs Ubuntu.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:47:07
I've tried to use GNU/Linux on the desktop, but it still seems to fragile.

I really have to disagree with you there. Ten years ago, yeah. It would take a lot of work to get a desktop installation going. These days Mint and Ubuntu work on almost anything straight out of the box including all of the necessary drivers.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:47:52
I use gentoo (one of the many distribution), it compiles every single open source programme, which makes it incredibly fast (8 seconds to boot and launch firefox on a 12 years old laptop, Windows surely can't do that) and reliable. However it is quite tedious to get it working since the nature of the system. Slackware is a good choice if you want similar performance but less trouble.

As for professional applications, don't you worry because most of the advance science/computing is done on linux.


I am using DWM (http://dwm.suckless.org/) right now, no fancy eyecandies but amazingly good for any code-editing/3d-editing.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:56:05
Slackware is a good choice if you want similar performance but less trouble.

Have you tried the most recent 64bit version? It's extremely slow out of the box without some major tweaking. If you need a production box up and running quickly it won't cut it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 25 July 2013, 19:59:16
Nah, quited slackware two years ago.

EMBRACE THE GENTOO MY BROTHER!
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:03:38
Gentoo is definitely lightweight! :)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: tormentor on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:04:14
Posting from a laptop running Ubuntu 12.04 and I actually enjoy it for THIS laptop. It's a old inspiron 1525 which came preinstalled with Vista. As awful as Vista is it had it's positives over Ubuntu. However for a older 32 bit machine w 2 gbs of ddr2 800mhz ram switching to Ubuntu has added a bit of zip to it. I have another laptop with Vista/Mint so if I feel like tinkering or playing a old game on it it's there. I'm thinking of moving Mint over to the 1525. I have a rig I've been slowly building part by part and I wont list the components unless someone asks but I'm torn between putting windows 7 or windows 8 on it. Yes, people will say 7 because it's "better" I don't use either of the operating systems for personal use yet (I have 7 on my work PC but that's a bare bones PC that I can't do anything with. Not even save files to). I can't testify how 7 is better but the way I see it is 8 is the future whether I like it or not. It'll also be supported for longer at this time and I tend to get close to 10 years out of my preffered OS. (typically some version of Windows) To answer your question, yes I run Linux and I enjoy it for this machine due to the performance increase it has given this old laptop. If we're talking UI, I like it. If we're talking pure functionality and support. It's obvious which OS it is you should choose.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: keymaster on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:22:02
I use Ubuntu on my school laptop. I've configured the battery/screen and desktop GUI to be very efficient in order to give me about 7-8 hours of light use (word processing, web, & email). I'm really satisfied with the performance, given that it's a $400 laptop I bought last year. I hardly ever bring a charger to campus.

Ubuntu and Linux Mint are great first distros, as many have already mentioned in the thread already.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:22:32
I've tried to use GNU/Linux on the desktop, but it still seems to fragile.

I really have to disagree with you there. Ten years ago, yeah. It would take a lot of work to get a desktop installation going. These days Mint and Ubuntu work on almost anything straight out of the box including all of the necessary drivers.

My first GNU/Linux distribution was Slackware, when it was still distributed on floppies.

You had to manually construct XFree86.conf or whatever it was called back then.

Those were interesting times.

I also used to compile my own custom kernel each time a new version was released.

Yes, modern GNU/Linux distributions have made most of this much, much simpler for the average user.

But I still get weird background process crashes, even under CentOS 6.4 (actually, not so much under 6.4, but regularly under 6.3).

Ubuntu is losing the plot, and I do not like Unity.  I tried it, but productivity plummeted.

I've tried XFCE, Gnome, KDE, Blackbox, LXDE, even Enlightenment (and probably a few more too), and none of them are exactly consistent and simple to use and tweak.

I also use a Mac - and to me that is a GUI on a Unix base done right.  It just works.  It is consistent.  It is (relatively) simple to use.  Tweaks are minimal, which is probably my biggest complaint, although the UI does tend to do its thing and then get out of the way and let you do your thing.  You don't have to keep fiddling with it to do simple tasks.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:31:30
CentOS is an open source version of RHEL. It's a server distribution. Fedora is the "desktop" version. I haven't used either in a few years. So, I can't recommend either for a desktop environment.

Unity totally blows. I agree with you there. Have you tried Gnome 3 in "fallback-mode" ? Very simple and clean. Similar to the Mac desktop, but less buggy. I've had the "grey screen of death" more than I have had my GUI crash in Ubuntu.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:36:44
I'm using openbox on Gentoo, previously fvwm (also Gentoo).  Really... I've never had any issues that weren't hardware related.

I started w/ .99 pre- kernels and 50+ slackware floppies.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:41:27
I'm using openbox on Gentoo, previously fvwm (also Gentoo).  Really... I've never had any issues that weren't hardware related.

I started w/ .99 pre- kernels and 50+ slackware floppies.

I didn't know what LInux was when it was running a .99 kernel, lol. I think I was in Jr. High then and dial-up time was expensive! Impressive, alaricljs.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:42:47
I was reading up on this and I think I heard that Ubuntu was the best for gaming and there is a software called WINE that could emulate the drivers needed for your GPU. That is all I know for now. I also heard that steam is working on Linux compatibility. So there are no ROMs out there that can run SC2? I was thinking about switching to Linux
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:44:56
[attachimg=1]

If I would have stuck with it when I first got it I'd probably have ended up doing something completely different with my life. But I never could get into it.

Windows sucks but it's easy and familiar.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:47:20
Pretty cool too, spamray. Pre-Mandriva days. About 10 years old?

Edit: I looked it up. I was off by a few years. That version was closer to the turn of the century - http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mandriva
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:50:26
Pretty cool too, spamray. Pre-Mandriva days. About 10 years old?

I'm thinking circa 1999-ish

I actually found that on a recent vacation to my visit my folks. I had some older stuff on floppy disks but I didn't get any pics of it.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: TheQsanity on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:52:09
I'd still defend Windows over Mac. I really don't like Mac users.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Thu, 25 July 2013, 20:52:30
I was reading up on this and I think I heard that Ubuntu was the best for gaming and there is a software called WINE that could emulate the drivers needed for your GPU. That is all I know for now. I also heard that steam is working on Linux compatibility. So there are no ROMs out there that can run SC2? I was thinking about switching to Linux

SC2 runs perfectly in wine in my case.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 25 July 2013, 21:02:58
I'd still defend Windows over Mac. I really don't like Mac users.

Sorry.

I have a box set of SuSE somewhere - including manuals.  Weighs quite a lot.

I was partially evaluating distros for a new server, and tried them in my development virtual machine.  After going through most of the common ones (Mint, Ubuntu, crunchbang, Arch and a couple of others, and also FreeBSD and NetBSD) I kinda settled on CentOS.  Yes it is based on Red Hat, but Red Hat is not going anywhere and is likely to keep a relatively stable system going for a while yet.  Yes, some of the packages are a bit old, but the only thing I have found missing is elvis, and I was able to compile that from source anyway.

There is also http://www.codeweavers.com/products/CodeWeavers CrossOver (http://) if you want to run Windows games on Linux.  Basically Wine, but tweaked and with a few proprietary bits.  Every now and again they do a give-away, otherwise it is a commercial product, but apparently quite good.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 21:13:29
I'm not a gamer at all, but I would guess that running Windows and said drivers would be ideally done natively without a software/hardware abstraction layer that comes with current desktop virtualization solutions. Ergo, the need for dual booting if you have the need for speed(y graphics.)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Thu, 25 July 2013, 21:43:50
I'd still defend Windows over Mac. I really don't like Mac users.

i know somewhere deep down in my heart, i still love you
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 21:46:20
:)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Thu, 25 July 2013, 23:28:24
CentOS is an open source version of RHEL. It's a server distribution.

They are both open source!   :D
It's a community version without licensing / support.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 23:38:57
RHEL is not fully open. You have to pay for a license and support, including updates and patches.

The original Red Hat was fully open and free though.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 25 July 2013, 23:48:38
The source code is open source though, CentOS just download it from Red Hat and repackage it without Red Hat logos.

I seem to recall that Red Hat spat the dummy and said CentOS is not allowed to mention the Red Hat name at all, so CentOS describes itself as "an Enterprise-class Linux Distribution derived from sources freely provided to the public by a prominent North American Enterprise Linux vendor".

:))
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Thu, 25 July 2013, 23:58:09
If you want to split hairs go ahead. ;)

...and the point was missed. You had mentioned the GUI and flaky in the same breath which suggested that you were using centos as a desktop box. I wouldn't use a server distro as a desktop or even with a GUI because it can be flaky.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: jameslr on Fri, 26 July 2013, 00:23:25
My first linux distro was Debian Potato (early 2000). Worked my way up through early Redhat releases (6 on up, no not RHEL, the original RedHat). Then I switched back to Debian with Sarge. Got a job as a Linux sys admin managing Redhat servers, and eventually setup RHEL 3 on high performance computing clusters. Managed them all the way up through RHEL 5 and moved back to Windows Admin work (don't ask why). Now I'm back in the linux / unix world managing AIX and Linux hosts as well as some Windows servers. It's a good platform depending on use, but I'd never use it for a desktop. Windows is the right platform for me. It has the games I want to play, and the applications I want to use. Plus it's stable and fast. It supports new hardware right out of the box for the most part, and I don't have to go through a bunch of steps in order to get it working. It will be a while before Linux is to that point, but it's getting there.

I'm not a Windows fanboy, I'm platform agnostic. I just like to use what works with the least amount of time invested in getting it to work.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: nubbinator on Fri, 26 July 2013, 00:25:13
(http://i.imgur.com/zFMTYKb.jpg)

Oddly, I think I actually got laid like 1000000 times more often than I had to reboot my computer that had Linux on it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 26 July 2013, 01:27:53
I have played with and run it off and on for almost 15 years and administrated a server with it for 2/3rds that time.

Linux is like this... (ignoring games)
If it works for you out of the box, GREAT! No problem.  If not... Big Problem.
Getting unsupported or partially supported hardware working can be difficult and time consuming. Once running though, Linux can be quite good, I just wish people could come up with some better names than "Yet another....", good god, you people are geeks, you can do better than that. 50 programs all with the same name, gee, thanks.



And YES, you can get Autcad running on Linux.
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=86
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: insilica on Fri, 26 July 2013, 03:08:15
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/zFMTYKb.jpg)


Oddly, I think I actually got laid like 1000000 times more often than I had to reboot my computer that had Linux on it.

Lol. Good one :D

Please don't use Blizzard games on Battle Net in wine. They banned D3 accounts for using wine under the explanation it was being used in an unintended way.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: tipo33 on Fri, 26 July 2013, 05:41:51
I generaly use Mint on my laptops, Arch on main desktops, my HTPC rusn XBMS on Ubuntu, and I have an ancient FreeBSD machine chugging along as my router.  I first played around with gentoo a loooong time ago, and finaly switched to *nix only when XP SP2 came out. 
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: godly_music on Fri, 26 July 2013, 05:55:38
Long story short, if you're not looking to switch out of some conviction, you're better off sticking with Windows. Linux is less approachable, will break on you, will be harder to fix and has little advantage for the average user who asks lazy questions such as our OP.

Linux has a number of merits, but they're really only merits if you put principles over practicability. Or you enjoy tinkering. Or have a job in programming.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 26 July 2013, 07:20:13
(http://i.imgur.com/zFMTYKb.jpg) (http://i.imgur.com/zFMTYKb.jpg)

Oddly, I think I actually got laid like 1000000 times more often than I had to reboot my computer that had Linux on it.

Is that one of those trick math problems like when somebody says they'll give you a million dollars per unicorn horn but it's obvious that $1 million x 0 is still 0?

 
I have played with and run it off and on for almost 15 years and administrated a server with it for 2/3rds that time.

Linux is like this... (ignoring games)
If it works for you out of the box, GREAT! No problem.  If not... Big Problem.
Getting unsupported or partially supported hardware working can be difficult and time consuming. Once running though, Linux can be quite good, I just wish people could come up with some better names than "Yet another....", good god, you people are geeks, you can do better than that. 50 programs all with the same name, gee, thanks.



And YES, you can get Autcad running on Linux.
http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=86 (http://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=application&iId=86)

Hmmm....interesting, looks like nothing recent however. But if I ever wanted to go back to 08 or maybe 06 or something.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Fri, 26 July 2013, 08:59:43
Long story short, if you're not looking to switch out of some conviction, you're better off sticking with Windows. Linux is less approachable, will break on you, will be harder to fix and has little advantage for the average user who asks lazy questions such as our OP.

Linux has a number of merits, but they're really only merits if you put principles over practicability. Or you enjoy tinkering. Or have a job in programming.

Totally disagree. Look at something like package management. On windows you have to search out and manually install each piece of software. And updating can be worse with some software. On a beginner friendly distro like ubuntu there's an insanely easy to use software center from which you can install/update pretty much anything you're liable to need. I consider anything without a decent package manager totally unusable.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:09:55
Long story short, if you're not looking to switch out of some conviction, you're better off sticking with Windows. Linux is less approachable, will break on you, will be harder to fix and has little advantage for the average user who asks lazy questions such as our OP.

Linux has a number of merits, but they're really only merits if you put principles over practicability. Or you enjoy tinkering. Or have a job in programming.

Totally disagree. Look at something like package management. On windows you have to search out and manually install each piece of software. And updating can be worse with some software. On a beginner friendly distro like ubuntu there's an insanely easy to use software center from which you can install/update pretty much anything you're liable to need. I consider anything without a decent package manager totally unusable.

One thing I've found very useful and I know it's almost apples to oranges but at work I use a lot of portable apps, especially if I'm having to go between machines or whatever and the portable apps menu makes it easy to add multiple apps at once, and it can keep them updated.

And again, its not the same I know but ninite.com is very useful for new installs.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: jspark on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:13:13
I haven't used linux with GUI desktop. I'm running two linux servers though. Linux is good since you can access every file system easily if you know what to do with it. Since I haven't used linux desktop, I cannot say anything about running a gui application on linux.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: godly_music on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:34:25
Linux programs in general don't satisfy me. Quality is all over the place. Programs may show weird bugs, quirky behavior or incompatibility with 'popular' closed-source formats, even high-profile software in some cases. I remember fileroller and another popular archiving tool both handling my 7zips and some archive operations in the same ****ty way with no obvious way to fix it. I'm not blaming this all on the free software community, but it makes for a frustrating experience. Package management and smooth updates are great, I agree, but they don't help if the content itself is lacking.

If you're a console junkie, you can do everything in beautifully elegant ways, sure. But then we're back to that bold statement that says "Linux is ready for the desktop". At its core, it isn't, unfortunately. As long as problem-solving remains obscure, it won't be.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:41:34
Linux is the best
No one ever uses it
Refrigerator
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:43:00
Nearly everyone uses it and quite a bit...

Just not where they think.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:45:57
Nearly everyone uses it and quite a bit...

Just not where they think.

I know.

You can't fit much info into a haiku...
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:50:39
Linux is the best
No one ever uses it
Refrigerator

I bet there are some refrigerators running linux!!
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 09:54:07
Linux is the best
No one ever uses it
Refrigerator

I bet there are some refrigerators running linux!!

LG makes many that do I think.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 26 July 2013, 10:02:13
Linux is the best
No one ever uses it
Refrigerator

I bet there are some refrigerators running linux!!

LG makes many that do I think.

Honestly Linux makes a lot of things in the world possible, where would we be without it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: funkymeeba on Fri, 26 July 2013, 10:14:33
MTS traffic signal controllers are probably all over your city (if you're in the US), and many of those are Linux powered. I have no really good reason for having found that information.

I really like Linux (specifically Funtoo) because I've been able to put together the perfect workflow for me. Windows does not easily let me do the things Linux lets me do. e17 window manager is pretty sweet, by the way. Try it!
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Fri, 26 July 2013, 17:39:38
Totally disagree. Look at something like package management. On windows you have to search out and manually install each piece of software. And updating can be worse with some software. On a beginner friendly distro like ubuntu there's an insanely easy to use software center from which you can install/update pretty much anything you're liable to need. I consider anything without a decent package manager totally unusable.

Updating Windows never broke my boot loader, like Ubuntu has done every single time on my tablet since version 9. I finally gave up and left it running ubuntu 9.
Searching up a program doesn't return 50 programs all named "Yet Another ____".  That or they give them names that have absolutely nothing to do with what they pertain to, or is similar to a Windows program but has an entirely different function.

You also may have to go chase down some inanely hard to find required packages. Myth TV used to be a massive nightmare to install and update due to all of the packages and dependencies. Even if you find them, you have to make sure those versions are all compatible with each other. Package management relies on too many outside sources to be effective long term. Repo down, awww too bad. Developer decided to quit, oh well.

Searching up Windows errors doesn't return 500,000,000 pages all saying "RTFM NOOB!" or "Use the search!" which is useless because every post says to search.  Granted, Ubuntu forums have helped stop this, but for a long time, @ssholes like that, were the bane of new Linux converts the world over.


Don't get me wrong, Linux is good, but I'm just saying what you describe, isn't all roses.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 17:49:52
(http://i.qkme.me/3vb5g2.jpg)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Fri, 26 July 2013, 18:19:02
You can't play many retail games on linux.

That's it.

yes you can. check out the steam client for linux.

http://media.steampowered.com/client/installer/steam.deb

http://steamforlinux.com/

http://store.steampowered.com/browse/linux/

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 18:21:36
You can't play many retail games on linux.

That's it.

yes you can. check out the steam client for linux.

http://media.steampowered.com/client/installer/steam.deb

http://steamforlinux.com/

http://store.steampowered.com/browse/linux/

To be [un]fair, there aren't a lot of compatible games yet.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 26 July 2013, 18:22:35
Who needs "retail games" when you have Dota2 and Quake 3?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: TheQsanity on Fri, 26 July 2013, 19:11:01
Who needs "retail games" when you have Dota2 and Quake 3?
LoL? I don't like Dota2 :P
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 19:37:28
Who needs "retail games" when you have Dota2 and Quake 3?

And Jedi Academy.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: inteli722 on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:13:04
pff. Everyone knows Nexuiz/Xonotic is the best Linux game! :P
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:13:36
pff. Everyone knows Nexuiz/Xonotic is the best Linux game! :P

Whatever you say...
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:29:12
pff. Everyone knows Nexuiz/Xonotic is the best Linux game! :P

 :thumb:
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: hashbaz on Fri, 26 July 2013, 20:41:04
I've used Linux on and off at home since the 90s (I tried the same Mandrake distribution that spamray posted, as well as Slackware), and all day every day at work.  For software development, I love it.  Tiling window managers minimize my mouse use, and the power of the command line interface is indispensable.

My sense is that even Ubuntu is still not ready for primetime as a serious Windows/OS X replacement though.  I still prefer (and use) both for general purpose web browsing and games, which is 90% of my non-work computer use.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Fri, 26 July 2013, 21:14:06
Take games out of the equation for a moment. I can't think of anything that I have to customize (other than turning off Unity) or that I'm missing with a fresh installation of Ubuntu 12.04. If you are not a gamer how is it not ready for primetime? In general, I think it's definitely a viable alternative unless you have some application that won't run on Linux. I have some accounting software that will only run in Windows. So, in that case I just fire up a VM when I need to use that software.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 27 July 2013, 00:36:35
Take games out of the equation for a moment. I can't think of anything that I have to customize (other than turning off Unity) or that I'm missing with a fresh installation of Ubuntu 12.04. If you are not a gamer how is it not ready for primetime? In general, I think it's definitely a viable alternative unless you have some application that won't run on Linux. I have some accounting software that will only run in Windows. So, in that case I just fire up a VM when I need to use that software.
On both Lenovo netbooks (x100e, S10e) it runs great. Like it was made for them.
My Sony laptop, the power management is horrendous on Linux. It won't even sleep when the lid is closed. No brightness controls, no FN buttons. (Core2Duo)
My Gateway laptop, the sound system refuses to work. (Core2duo)
My file server, no nic. (core 2 duo)
Older file server had a working nic, but only at 33MBs max, which is only about 1/3rd the gigabit (100+) speeds it should have had.
Desktop has issues with nic and some sata ports. (Intel P68/Core I7)
Tablet, boot loader will not work on anything newer than Ubuntu 9 (so far), due to deprecated commands. It runs Photoshop CS4 through Wine. I hate Gimp.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Sat, 27 July 2013, 01:15:43
I have no problems with Ubuntu 12.04 64bit on:

(desktop installations on all but the server hardware)
Acer Netbook atom (32bit)
IBM/Lenovo Core2
Toshiba Ultrabook i3
Asus Laptop i7
Acer Laptop core2
Gateway Desktop core2
HP Proliant ?
Multiple Supermicro Xeon
Multiple IBM Xeon
Multiple Sun AMD
...and on and on...

I really can't think of any recent issues with Ubuntu 10.10 64bit or 12.04 64bit. They all just worked (some after installing updates of course.)

Now pre-10.10 was a different story. What versions of Linux were you using? If I'm not sure about hardware compatibility I'll just boot a live USB first to see how it runs before trying a full installation.

Edit: I've installed it on a few Macbooks too. A couple of the machines may have needed slight tweaking, but nothing that a quick Google search couldn't fix.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 27 July 2013, 09:27:23
Just wondering if the OP has learned anything yet?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Burz on Sat, 27 July 2013, 12:00:48
Just wondering if the OP has learned anything yet?

Probably very little. Just a bunch of offhand comments that assume the OP wanted to talk about a kernel.

I think Linux enthusiasts tend to assume too much when thinking and talking about the software as an operating system. That's a big reason why most consumers tend to walk away from your typical desktop distro (all of them, actually): Even if you set it up and coach them and act as their on-call repairman, they start to feel that the environment is too unsettling for them. Too many features not properly expressed in the GUI (need to use CLI); too many shifts in the GUI ("uh, KDE became weird and unstable this year... gotta learn and use Gnome for a while"... then Gnome jumps the shark too); audio that still sucks (bad); the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"; hardware snafus and the discovery that "the freeware driver wasn't written for quite this model" or similar idiocy; the ridiculous expectation that enthusiasts give prospective users that they can switch to a Linux desktop if a live CD seems to work for 5 min. on their hardware (then later, all the things that don't work surface one by one until the user realizes they wasted weeks of their time).

Amazingly, the impediments to app developers are nearly as onerous.

None of the above is any real barrier for people who work as sysadmins (esp. for Internet/web services). The big mistake is in thinking you can take hacker and server room culture and make it useable to average consumers by adding a candy coating to a noncommittally-supplied raft of UIs. Apple avoided that and Google also did not make that mistake with Android, since underneath the candy there is a philosophy of greater feature-stability, vertical integration, and hardware compatibility tailored to complete systems not individual chips. And you'll notice Google used the Linux kernel but did not incorporate "Linux" anywhere in the marketed Android identity; selling Android as a "Linux" would have confused people and sent most early adopters running in the other direction.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Sat, 27 July 2013, 13:24:59
You can't play many retail games on linux.

That's it.

yes you can. check out the steam client for linux.

http://media.steampowered.com/client/installer/steam.deb

http://steamforlinux.com/

http://store.steampowered.com/browse/linux/

To be [un]fair, there aren't a lot of compatible games yet.

did you even look at the 249 games listed on steam?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Sat, 27 July 2013, 15:09:41
Just wondering if the OP has learned anything yet?

Probably very little. Just a bunch of offhand comments that assume the OP wanted to talk about a kernel.

I think Linux enthusiasts tend to assume too much when thinking and talking about the software as an operating system. That's a big reason why most consumers tend to walk away from your typical desktop distro (all of them, actually): Even if you set it up and coach them and act as their on-call repairman, they start to feel that the environment is too unsettling for them. Too many features not properly expressed in the GUI (need to use CLI); too many shifts in the GUI ("uh, KDE became weird and unstable this year... gotta learn and use Gnome for a while"... then Gnome jumps the shark too); audio that still sucks (bad); the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"; hardware snafus and the discovery that "the freeware driver wasn't written for quite this model" or similar idiocy; the ridiculous expectation that enthusiasts give prospective users that they can switch to a Linux desktop if a live CD seems to work for 5 min. on their hardware (then later, all the things that don't work surface one by one until the user realizes they wasted weeks of their time).

Amazingly, the impediments to app developers are nearly as onerous.

None of the above is any real barrier for people who work as sysadmins (esp. for Internet/web services). The big mistake is in thinking you can take hacker and server room culture and make it useable to average consumers by adding a candy coating to a noncommittally-supplied raft of UIs. Apple avoided that and Google also did not make that mistake with Android, since underneath the candy there is a philosophy of greater feature-stability, vertical integration, and hardware compatibility tailored to complete systems not individual chips. And you'll notice Google used the Linux kernel but did not incorporate "Linux" anywhere in the marketed Android identity; selling Android as a "Linux" would have confused people and sent most early adopters running in the other direction.


What a load of BS!

 Other than a few comments, this thread has been mostly filled with user experiences which is what the OP asked for.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Sat, 27 July 2013, 15:23:35
You can't play many retail games on linux.

That's it.

yes you can. check out the steam client for linux.

http://media.steampowered.com/client/installer/steam.deb

http://steamforlinux.com/

http://store.steampowered.com/browse/linux/

To be [un]fair, there aren't a lot of compatible games yet.

did you even look at the 249 games listed on steam?
SACRED CATTLE!

My impression of Steam for linux was of when it first entered beta, and there was just Left 4 Dead and TF2.

Wow! I should not have posted that without looking at the games first.

I am seriously considering switching to linux...
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sat, 27 July 2013, 16:12:06
Now pre-10.10 was a different story. What versions of Linux were you using? If I'm not sure about hardware compatibility I'll just boot a live USB first to see how it runs before trying a full installation.
While far from a Linux guru, I've been using and experimenting with Linux off and on since 1997 and nearly every Ubuntu since version 6 or so.
For version 12, I have a system running netbook, desktop, and server.


Most of these errors were from 11 and 12, when I was trying to convert my arsenal over to it once and for all.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sat, 27 July 2013, 16:19:56
the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"

You think that typing ONE LINE of command to install any programme without worrying it being a malware or fake is difficult? And you think windows or Mac does a better job in this? By trapping users to download malwares?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Sat, 27 July 2013, 20:12:01
the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"

You think that typing ONE LINE of command to install any programme without worrying it being a malware or fake is difficult? And you think windows or Mac does a better job in this? By trapping users to download malwares?



for most people.... yes

off the shelf doesn't matter anymore.
almost every piece of software most people would use is available in a web application format now. if not there is a alternative in the ubuntu app center.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: xSpartanCx on Sat, 27 July 2013, 21:05:17
Every day, linux is becoming more and more supported by games and software. I personally like it more than Windows, less drivers to install and an easier command line. Sometimes the simple things can get frustrating, like running a .jar, but most of the time it's a much smoother UI with less bugs in my opinion.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Burz on Sun, 28 July 2013, 10:29:16
the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"

You think that typing ONE LINE of command to install any programme without worrying it being a malware or fake is difficult? And you think windows or Mac does a better job in this? By trapping users to download malwares?
Yeah, that ONE line plus dozens of others required to chase down dependencies and change config options. OS X comes close to getting it right, because most apps behave like simple files and I can choose to make them global or just stored/run under one user with just drag and drop. A typical Linux app is relatively unruly, and installing one that is not packaged for your particular distro+version leads to hijinx (like uninstalling a dependency to get a different build of it in there, only to discover that 1/3 of your OS also got uninstalled or no longer able to get through updates because of broken dependency resolution).

There is also the problem when a user wants to get their feet wet creating apps. If they want to simply share their Linux program with a class or other people they know (i.e. simply copying the program), they are much more likely to fail because apps that rely on high-level services may not be able find/use those services on other distros (and even the same distro will have large incompatibilities in just a few years). They first have to acquire an expert-level of knowledge about which features are common/uncommon on different Linux desktops and/or how to create packages--and even then are still more likely to fail. I think Linux desktops attract people who want to tinker under the hood (inside the OS) and repel people who want to tinker and advance above that layer--this latter set need interface and feature stability.

The right way to do this--before you even get to apps--is to design a rich set of APIs and utilities and make them standard so that most apps only need to check the OS version during install or initialization.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 10:43:41
Yes the dependency in Linux is quite difficult to deal with, but MOST users don't have to worry about them as the system manages it quite well. For example Ubuntu users would only install "ubuntu-ready" programmes using the apt-get command, the server wouldn't give you something for fedora or SUSE. Would there be no version optimized for your distro, you can oftentimes find the source code and compile from there, which is only a few command lines with the automake system.

As for the app creating, different distros of Linux doesn't mean totally different structure, they still use the same foundation (libraries and kernel), just the programme distributing method is different.

TL;DR There is no "different" linux, a programme usable in a certain distro of linux is usable in any other linux.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: funkymeeba on Sun, 28 July 2013, 10:45:17
Sorry, I've now been enlightened. Linux truly sucks because it's not built for a caveman to use.

I'll just go back to bashing my face against the keyboard with any other system.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: godly_music on Sun, 28 July 2013, 11:54:43
Probably very little. Just a bunch of offhand comments that assume the OP wanted to talk about a kernel.

I think Linux enthusiasts tend to assume too much when thinking and talking about the software as an operating system. That's a big reason why most consumers tend to walk away from your typical desktop distro (all of them, actually): Even if you set it up and coach them and act as their on-call repairman, they start to feel that the environment is too unsettling for them. Too many features not properly expressed in the GUI (need to use CLI); too many shifts in the GUI ("uh, KDE became weird and unstable this year... gotta learn and use Gnome for a while"... then Gnome jumps the shark too); audio that still sucks (bad); the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"; hardware snafus and the discovery that "the freeware driver wasn't written for quite this model" or similar idiocy; the ridiculous expectation that enthusiasts give prospective users that they can switch to a Linux desktop if a live CD seems to work for 5 min. on their hardware (then later, all the things that don't work surface one by one until the user realizes they wasted weeks of their time).

Amazingly, the impediments to app developers are nearly as onerous.

None of the above is any real barrier for people who work as sysadmins (esp. for Internet/web services). The big mistake is in thinking you can take hacker and server room culture and make it useable to average consumers by adding a candy coating to a noncommittally-supplied raft of UIs. Apple avoided that and Google also did not make that mistake with Android, since underneath the candy there is a philosophy of greater feature-stability, vertical integration, and hardware compatibility tailored to complete systems not individual chips. And you'll notice Google used the Linux kernel but did not incorporate "Linux" anywhere in the marketed Android identity; selling Android as a "Linux" would have confused people and sent most early adopters running in the other direction.

Very well put. Even as someone who digs what Linux does and how you have to operate it, I can't agree with most of its preachers for exactly those reasons. You've gotta keep a clear head and be critical of a thing you love.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 28 July 2013, 17:14:05
Probably very little. Just a bunch of offhand comments that assume the OP wanted to talk about a kernel.

I think Linux enthusiasts tend to assume too much when thinking and talking about the software as an operating system. That's a big reason why most consumers tend to walk away from your typical desktop distro (all of them, actually): Even if you set it up and coach them and act as their on-call repairman, they start to feel that the environment is too unsettling for them. Too many features not properly expressed in the GUI (need to use CLI); too many shifts in the GUI ("uh, KDE became weird and unstable this year... gotta learn and use Gnome for a while"... then Gnome jumps the shark too); audio that still sucks (bad); the near impossibility of installing 'off the shelf' independently-downloaded apps and the weird cult-like reverence that Linux techies have for "the repository"; hardware snafus and the discovery that "the freeware driver wasn't written for quite this model" or similar idiocy; the ridiculous expectation that enthusiasts give prospective users that they can switch to a Linux desktop if a live CD seems to work for 5 min. on their hardware (then later, all the things that don't work surface one by one until the user realizes they wasted weeks of their time).

Amazingly, the impediments to app developers are nearly as onerous.

None of the above is any real barrier for people who work as sysadmins (esp. for Internet/web services). The big mistake is in thinking you can take hacker and server room culture and make it useable to average consumers by adding a candy coating to a noncommittally-supplied raft of UIs. Apple avoided that and Google also did not make that mistake with Android, since underneath the candy there is a philosophy of greater feature-stability, vertical integration, and hardware compatibility tailored to complete systems not individual chips. And you'll notice Google used the Linux kernel but did not incorporate "Linux" anywhere in the marketed Android identity; selling Android as a "Linux" would have confused people and sent most early adopters running in the other direction.
I'm not so sure about learning very little, but the rest I agree with (though I have VERY serious issues with Android from a developer standpoint  :mad:).

Linux users tend to greatly over sell  how easy it is, and completely over estimate peoples willingness to not only learn, but also tolerate. While you may be willing to drop to command line, 99.9999% of my customers call me to fix EVERYTHING. I had one call me in on a friday night to press a reset button so their computer would be running on Monday... And you expect them to drop to a command line and actually type in a command? 

Unless you work with the actual masses, it's EXTREMELY easy to over estimate the "average" user.  What we think of as average is super geek level to them. Remember these are people who can barely work their Tivo system (they often ask me to hook up tv systems... No). The other day, I had to explain to a web designer what AMD and Intel were, not the difference, but that they were two different manufacturers.

There is a good reason tech support starts with reset your modem and check the cables.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Lighthouse1 on Sun, 28 July 2013, 18:06:44
Quote
The other day, I had to explain to a web designer what AMD and Intel were, not the difference, but that they were two different manufacturers.

Indeed its not just non tech savvy people who suffer from that sort of blind spot.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a supplier..we had bought some foolish code (save money everyone, go to stupid tiny companies who employ the cast of the muppets) and when it arrived we reported a load of defects. Got on a conference call and explained the defects were in Firefox version X whatever it was then (before they went to the rapid release model anyway).

"What's that?" said the developer.

I replied it was a version of Firefox.

There was a pause..

"What's Firefox?"

On the other hand I actually have some sympathy with people who don't want to have to understand an OS or the inner workings of a PC..its a tool, an interface between them and work. Unless you have a leaning to these things why should anyone have to actually have technical knowledge to use something marketed as an office essential and the effective replacement of the typing pool.

PCs etc are actually too complex for most people. Still, keeps the pounds rolling in.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Sun, 28 July 2013, 18:18:34
Still calling BS. I have installed Ubuntu on PCs for family members that use Apple and they have no problem using it. There is absolutely no need for the average user to use the command line or even install software. When updates are ready you just hit the Install Updates button. That's it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 18:23:11
Still calling BS. I have installed Ubuntu on PCs for family members that use Apple and they have no problem using it. There is absolutely no need for the average user to use the command line or even install software. When updates are ready you just hit the Install Updates button. That's it.

Yes, no need for average user to use command line.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Sun, 28 July 2013, 18:47:30
Still calling BS. I have installed Ubuntu on PCs for family members that use Apple and they have no problem using it. There is absolutely no need for the average user to use the command line or even install software. When updates are ready you just hit the Install Updates button. That's it.

Yes, no need for average user to use command line.

No need for average user to get HHKB ;)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 28 July 2013, 19:16:53
On the other hand I actually have some sympathy with people who don't want to have to understand an OS or the inner workings of a PC..its a tool, an interface between them and work. Unless you have a leaning to these things why should anyone have to actually have technical knowledge to use something marketed as an office essential and the effective replacement of the typing pool.
This is what many most geeks fail to understand.
People want their PC to work like their washing machine. Turn it, it does the job, you turn it off. If it breaks, call a repair man. I've gotten to where I even handle billing like a repair man, makes it easier for people to understand.

That's it, nothing more, like you said, it's a tool for them, not a lifestyle. This is why people love Iphones, it works like an appliance.



Still calling BS. I have installed Ubuntu on PCs for family members that use Apple and they have no problem using it. There is absolutely no need for the average user to use the command line or even install software. When updates are ready you just hit the Install Updates button. That's it.
Inevitably, they want to install an HP printer with a scanner... Wirelessly. All I can say to you at that point is have fun.
The same goes for external backups with automated software, something I am seeing more and more of.

Printer/scanner combos are the bane of my existence, particularly if they are HP or (F'me), both HP and Wireless.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 19:18:16
This is what many most geeks fail to understand.
People want their PC to work like their washing machine. Turn it, it does the job, you turn it off.


Puppy linux.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Sun, 28 July 2013, 19:24:59
On the other hand I actually have some sympathy with people who don't want to have to understand an OS or the inner workings of a PC..its a tool, an interface between them and work. Unless you have a leaning to these things why should anyone have to actually have technical knowledge to use something marketed as an office essential and the effective replacement of the typing pool.
This is what many most geeks fail to understand.
People want their PC to work like their washing machine. Turn it, it does the job, you turn it off. If it breaks, call a repair man. I've gotten to where I even handle billing like a repair man, makes it easier for people to understand.

That's it, nothing more, like you said, it's a tool for them, not a lifestyle. This is why people love Iphones, it works like an appliance.



Still calling BS. I have installed Ubuntu on PCs for family members that use Apple and they have no problem using it. There is absolutely no need for the average user to use the command line or even install software. When updates are ready you just hit the Install Updates button. That's it.
Inevitably, they want to install an HP printer with a scanner... Wirelessly. All I can say to you at that point is have fun.
The same goes for external backups with automated software, something I am seeing more and more of.

Printer/scanner combos are the bane of my existence, particularly if they are HP or (F'me), both HP and Wireless.

While you may not be able to use the HP software you can still set up a printer and scanner easily for them. Ubuntu has some sort of backup software they push now but I just set up rysnc and forget about it. You can do this for your clients as well without the need for them to do anything but make sure their backup drive is plugged in (or if off-site just make sure the PC is on a connected to the Internet.)

Edit: I'm not saying it's a solution for everyone, but for the most basic needs it functions quite well. And in some cases is even better since you will rarely, if ever, have to deal with mal-ware.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 28 July 2013, 19:52:47
While you may not be able to use the HP software you can still set up a printer and scanner easily for them. Ubuntu has some sort of backup software they push now but I just set up rysnc and forget about it. You can do this for your clients as well without the need for them to do anything but make sure their backup drive is plugged in (or if off-site just make sure the PC is on a connected to the Internet.)

At which point not only did you just once again make it a geeks only OS, but it would also put me out of business as soon as I set it up for them.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Sun, 28 July 2013, 19:56:07
Are you saying that you rely on improperly engineered solutions for repeat business, and that you rely on this repeat business for continuity?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 20:01:39
It's very easy to set up anything in Ubuntu now, it works just like Windows nowadays: install all the modules and load all of them when booting up, scarifying speed for compatibility.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Sun, 28 July 2013, 20:18:52
LOL, I don't know how to respond to that LA. I guess you mean rsync is geeky? Here is a pic of the "Control Panel" for Ubuntu if you think it's less geeky. From what I can tell the backup application is very similar to Apple's Time Machine. Just set it and forget it.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Sun, 28 July 2013, 22:01:58
Are you saying that you rely on improperly engineered solutions for repeat business, and that you rely on this repeat business for continuity?
Are you saying I'm any different than the entire car industry?  :p
Or how about Hp selling printers that drink ink like vampires?

Actually, while my business is much more than just chasing viruses and the like, I didn't create it, I just benefit from it.



It's very easy to set up anything in Ubuntu now, it works just like Windows nowadays: install all the modules and load all of them when booting up, scarifying speed for compatibility.
You lost half my customers when you said "install", however one thing many people forget, is that you still have to convince a customer to remove or alter Windows just to even try and install Linux. That alone, pretty much scares the bejeezus out of 99% of the population.

It doesn't matter how safe it is, there is still some risk and they have no way to fix it if something goes wrong. Remember, you just trashed their entire OS and possibly lost all of their data. Even if they managed to get Linux installed, they probably won't be able to find their old data. Changing an OS isn't something to be taken lightly... Unless you're a geek.



LOL, I don't know how to respond to that LA. I guess you mean rsync is geeky? Here is a pic of the "Control Panel" for Ubuntu if you think it's less geeky. From what I can tell the backup application is very similar to Apple's Time Machine. Just set it and forget it.
Not the backup, but the scanner system, rsync as well though.

To be honest, most people have never even heard of Linux, many barely even realize that Mac exists.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: linziyi on Sun, 28 July 2013, 22:16:19
Maybe you misunderstood my post, I am saying how windows OPERATE, not "installing linux and screwing up your precious windows in the process".
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Hypersphere on Mon, 29 July 2013, 13:25:02
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rknize on Mon, 29 July 2013, 13:31:02
Ubuntu is fairly turn-key these days.  I have installed the LTS on dozens of old laptops and PCs with excellent results.  Most of the people I have done this for have been quite happy with it, as I made it very clear at the start what the limitations would be.  Some of them love the Software Center, even though many of the apps are perpetually half-baked.  The rest are the types of people that need a web browser, email client, and office suite.  No one needs to throw their old hardware away and pay Microsoft thousands of dollars for this anymore.  It's just silly.

I am no fan of Unity and cannot use it's absurd workflows on my main work and home machines, but I do use it on my own laptops because it "just works".  I don't need 8-12 work spaces there and don't mind that my session is lost each time I reboot.  As with many Ubuntu refugees, I chose Linux Mint (Debian Edition) as my desktop of choice.  MATE at work and Cinnamon and home.  My servers all run some blend of Debian stable/testing, depending where the Debian release cycle happens to be.  Before Ubuntu existed, I used Debian on my desktop, so it's a little deja vu to be running LMDE.  Before I settled on Debian (potato), I went through Gentoo, SuSE, Red Hat, Slackware, LFS, etc, dating back to the mid-90s.  They all had/have various shortcomings and Debian felt like the right fit for me at the time (probably 2000 or so).  I've been happy with it ever since.

I've been a MythTV user for many years (since v0.7) with 2 back ends and several front ends.  Upgrades can be problematic sometimes and the migration away from analog television has degraded its usefulness significantly.  However my family still uses it, so I keep it going.  The Myth drive cluster is where my old HDs go to live out their sunset years.  :)

I have a decrepit, old PC at work to do the 3 things I need Windoze for and Windows 7 at home to play games on a gaming-only rig that I rarely use these days.  Virtual machines don't work for either of those.  I would go crazy if I had to use Windows as my main OS, though I was pleasantly surprised with 7.  I do have a few Virtual Box clients running XP that I use for various (mostly work-related) things at home.  I used CrossOver for many years, mainly to bridge the Office gap.  I almost never need it now, thanks to LibreOffice.  I have a Brother network printer/scanner that worked perfectly out of the box with all of my machines, so no complaints there.  Before that I network-printed to various HP DeskJets via CUPS on my main server.  Very reliable, even though the printers themselves weren't.

So yeah, you need to be a little adventurous and willing to learn to migrate your primary computer to a Linux distribution.  For Ubuntu specifically, there is a plethora of user-level support in the forums and so forth.  A lot of GNU/Linux newbies all learning together.  These days, the chances that you'll need to bust out the console and fiddle with text files are less and less.  It's been an amazing transition to watch.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 15:09:03
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Mon, 29 July 2013, 15:11:22
Reading comprehension isn't what it used to be. ;)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 15:14:51
Reading comprehension isn't what it used to be. ;)

wat
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Mon, 29 July 2013, 15:20:39
If you read through the thread I mentioned Live boot at least once.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Mon, 29 July 2013, 16:34:32
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.



ಠ_ಠ
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 29 July 2013, 16:42:57
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.
No you can't. That launches vi. You have to install vim (or gvim) and type "vim" to launch it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 16:47:37
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.
No you can't. That launches vi. You have to install vim (or gvim) and type "vim" to launch it.

I apologize for lying about my experience with ubuntu 13.04.

I really do.

/sarcasm
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:02:17
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.
No you can't. That launches vi. You have to install vim (or gvim) and type "vim" to launch it.

I apologize for lying about my experience with ubuntu 13.04.

I really do.

/sarcasm
Sorry if I came off as a bit snippy, just want to make sure you understand vi and vim are different beasts. If you try to use vi like vim it will not end well.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:18:57
vi, vim and elvis are all different.  I prefer elvis.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:19:03
Emacs rulz! lol
Nano is very easy for newbies. Don't hurt yourself with trying to use Vim! ;)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:29:13
I tried emacs a few times, but I've been using vi-like editors for far too long now to switch permanently.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 17:39:24
Of course, if people want to try out linux while keeping Windows on their system, they could run linux from a live CD or have someone set them up with a dual-boot system.

Eek.

I just tried out ubuntu on a livecd.

Me wants to switch.

I love vim.

And you launch it by going to a terminal and typing 'vi'.
No you can't. That launches vi. You have to install vim (or gvim) and type "vim" to launch it.

I apologize for lying about my experience with ubuntu 13.04.

I really do.

/sarcasm
Sorry if I came off as a bit snippy, just want to make sure you understand vi and vim are different beasts. If you try to use vi like vim it will not end well.

You didn't, but I did! Sorry.

It may be ubuntu specific, but 'vi' legitimately starts VIM.

From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VimHowto

"You can start vim in console mode by typing vi or vim at the terminal"
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Mon, 29 July 2013, 18:06:36
You didn't, but I did! Sorry.

It may be ubuntu specific, but 'vi' legitimately starts VIM.

From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VimHowto

"You can start vim in console mode by typing vi or vim at the terminal"
B... but... how do you start vi?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Mon, 29 July 2013, 18:12:08
You didn't, but I did! Sorry.

It may be ubuntu specific, but 'vi' legitimately starts VIM.

From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VimHowto

"You can start vim in console mode by typing vi or vim at the terminal"
B... but... how do you start vi?

I have no idea.

I won't even pretend to be a linux expert.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Mon, 29 July 2013, 18:45:53
You didn't, but I did! Sorry.

It may be ubuntu specific, but 'vi' legitimately starts VIM.

From https://help.ubuntu.com/community/VimHowto

"You can start vim in console mode by typing vi or vim at the terminal"
B... but... how do you start vi?

Why would you do that? You can always run Vim in compatibility mode, if you need that for whatever wicked reason.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: hashbaz on Mon, 29 July 2013, 19:05:17
"vi" launches vim on most distributions, I believe.  The original vi is not installed at all.  Is it even open source? (tied to UNIX perhaps?)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 29 July 2013, 19:14:02
rowdy@athena:~$ which vi
/usr/bin/vi
rowdy@athena:~$ ls -l /usr/bin/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 2010-08-18 16:48 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
rowdy@athena:~$ ls -l /etc/alternatives/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 14 2010-08-18 16:48 /etc/alternatives/vi -> /usr/bin/elvis

So when I run vi I get elvis :)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Mon, 29 July 2013, 21:04:52
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:32:59
Is it even open source? (tied to UNIX perhaps?)

Good question. It first appeared on BSD UNIX, and its license says BSD. But "BSD" then and now, are quite different of course. It's probably closed, if I'm correct there aren't any forks, only work-alikes.

But FreeBSD ships with the actual vi, maybe it was opened up later...? :eek:
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 July 2013, 18:42:28
Is it even open source? (tied to UNIX perhaps?)

Good question. It first appeared on BSD UNIX, and its license says BSD. But "BSD" then and now, are quite different of course. It's probably closed, if I'm correct there aren't any forks, only work-alikes.

But FreeBSD ships with the actual vi, maybe it was opened up later...? :eek:

it's still bsd licensed. not closed. there are proprietary implementations but those are mostly found on closed unix systems.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Leslieann on Tue, 30 July 2013, 19:01:02
Open BSD is open source.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Tue, 30 July 2013, 19:02:48
Open BSD is open source.

thank you leslieann i had forgotten ;)

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Tue, 30 July 2013, 19:09:15
I get confused, and suspected it was slightly different back then because:

A) AT&T sued the people branching off to 386BSD/FreeBSD/NetBSD.
B) Richard Stallman started GNU because UNIX was "proprietary", and BSD is a version of UNIX. So if the license then was exactly the same as today, would make it not much more proprietary than GNU.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Tue, 30 July 2013, 19:14:40
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Tue, 30 July 2013, 20:02:07
386BSD was the first open BSD and it was a rewrite of the encumbered BSD.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 30 July 2013, 20:42:21
minux 3 anyone? lol
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 30 July 2013, 20:52:03
NetBSD?

Although, actually the default vi in NetBSD is:

Version nvi-1.81.6nb5 (2009-08-11) The CSRG, University of California,
Berkeley.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:24:22
minux 3 anyone? lol

Which has to do with linux... how?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:42:20
minux 3 anyone? lol

Which has to do with linux... how?

Really? Minix was what Linus actually used to write Linux on.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:54:07
He started Linux in part because he thought Minix was sh**.  :))
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Thimplum on Tue, 30 July 2013, 21:57:57
minux 3 anyone? lol

Which has to do with linux... how?

Really? Minix was what Linus actually used to write Linux on.

Yes yes I know, but it looked like domoaligato was trying to change subject, and it looks like it worked.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Tue, 30 July 2013, 22:20:23
Nice try...maybe next time.
Which has to do with linux... how?

Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Tue, 30 July 2013, 23:16:35
It was already changed to bsd. if anything I helped change it back to linux with the Linus vs Tanenbaum reference.
:D
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Tue, 30 July 2013, 23:25:10
It was already changed to bsd. if anything I helped change it back to linux with the Linus vs Tanenbaum reference.
:D

You definitely got us back on track with a very appropriate reference. Thanks!
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Wed, 31 July 2013, 02:31:40
Sorry for rambling about off topic shtuff...  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: bigx333 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:51:51
He started Linux in part because he thought Minix was sh**.  :))

Linus wrote Linux because

1 - Minix was paid
2 - It was limited, Minix was created to be an educational tool, not a real life operating system
3 - It's much more complex

Linus never argued that Linux was superior to Minix (more viable? yes).
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 05:59:59
Hello, any linux user 'round here? Can you tell me something about your experience with it, and how it is compared to windows? thx

I use linux everyday at work and I love it.
To answer your questions, to compare between :
- Windows
- MacOS
- *nix (Unix and Linux-like)
I think we may need a lot of time because we may end up with comparing apples and pears.
Each OS has its own advantages and disadvantages.

But I will try to recap the short version of the comparison as follows :

Linux is good for command-line system, powerful kernel for multi-tasking server or dedicated workstation. Some applications on Linux run much more better than on Windows environment, e.g. Apache Web Server. However, Linux still has some disadvantages like the device management engine of Linux could be an issue with new users, sometimes it does not work out of the boxes, e.g. USB 3.0 on Linux could be an issue since it is first released. The life cycle of an Linux distro is also an issue with users because normally it has short life cycle, users may have no support after 2-3 years, e.g. Ubuntu 9.

Generally, Windows has a good UI engine, even it sucks sometimes. On Windows, we may have a lot of options for gaming, business applications and home usages. However, Windows has many security concerns, it also has infamous BSoD 'Blue Screen of Death' issue which usually appears when unexpected issues related to hardware happen.

To conclude, I think it depends on the jobs we may have different answers for the OS.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 06:54:34
e.g. USB 3.0 on Linux could be an issue since it is first released.

Tell me about it. Linux had USB 3.0 drivers in upstream long before the hardware became common or even available in the mass market.

The life cycle of an Linux distro is also an issue with users because normally it has short life cycle, users may have no support after 2-3 years, e.g. Ubuntu 9.

No, it isn't. Most common distros are very open about their release schedule and anyone who expect long-term support from every release of every distro even though it's stated by developers that the release will be supported for X months, is an idiot.

If someone wants stable system (stable as in "not constantly changing"), recent Ubuntu LTS releases are supported for 5 years, and it's more in case of Debian or enterprise distros such as RHEL or SLE*.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: phoenix1234 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:16:44
e.g. USB 3.0 on Linux could be an issue since it is first released.

Tell me about it. Linux had USB 3.0 drivers in upstream long before the hardware became common or even available in the mass market.

The life cycle of an Linux distro is also an issue with users because normally it has short life cycle, users may have no support after 2-3 years, e.g. Ubuntu 9.

No, it isn't. Most common distros are very open about their release schedule and anyone who expect long-term support from every release of every distro even though it's stated by developers that the release will be supported for X months, is an idiot.

If someone wants stable system (stable as in "not constantly changing"), recent Ubuntu LTS releases are supported for 5 years, and it's more in case of Debian or enterprise distros such as RHEL or SLE*.

I think there is an explanation about the issue of Linux USB 3.0 here:
http://askubuntu.com/questions/12139/does-ubuntu-support-usb-3-0
Indeed, it is the first OS supports USB 3.0 but to run as SuperSpeed (xhci), we need to work around sometimes on some distro :
http://askubuntu.com/questions/24556/why-wont-usb-3-0-external-hard-drive-run-at-usb-3-0-speeds
http://forums.tweaktown.com/asrock/51326-usb-3-0-external-drive-not-transfering-data-superspeed.html

For the second points, you are right about Ubuntu LTS for 5 years and there could be more distro support LTS but I think I just pick up an example of of disadvantages which may not always happen. Plus, we also have a lot of distro besides Ubuntu (Mint, Arch, Mageia, Fedora, OpenSuse, etc.) and the community of Linux in the world is different between area and region.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:43:47
Yes, regarding long term support for a given distro release, Ubuntu and its derivatives have 5-year long-term support (LTS) versions, and CentOS, a free clone of RHEL, offers 10-year support.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:00:44
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: tipo33 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:16:36
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".

I don't agree,  the best way I've heard it described is "BSD is what you get when a bunch of UNIX hackers try to make a UNIX clone.  Linux is what you get when a bunch of PC hackers try to make a UNIX clone."  They are very similar, they just have different goals.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:35:59
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU

Richard Stallman has stated many times that gnu is not linux. linux is a just a kernel.

GNU Hurd (the actual gnu kernel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd

GNU Packages - what most people think of as being GNU as part of the free software foundation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_GNU_packages

you can use these same packages on hurd, BSD, linux, windows, solaris and many more.

So basically we are changing the original topic again from linux to gnu. :D
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:45:40
Ubuntu is has the most $$$ backing it at the moment and seems to have the most active development so I will discuss it for a moment.
Ubuntu is based on debian linux and tends to be what most people try first when leaving windows.
Ubuntu is great but you will probably get frustrated with the window manager UNITY and want to try gnome or KDE or another window manager.
do not remove unity from ubuntu. just add the other window manager you want because if you remove unity you will break other applications/packages that depend on it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:54:56
Ubuntu is has the most $$$ backing it at the moment and seems to have the most active development so I will discuss it for a moment.

What? O_o
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:00:25
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".

I don't agree,  the best way I've heard it described is "BSD is what you get when a bunch of UNIX hackers try to make a UNIX clone.  Linux is what you get when a bunch of PC hackers try to make a UNIX clone."  They are very similar, they just have different goals.

Unix clone ≠ based on unix.
For it to be unix based they would have had to have taken and modified the actual unix source code and modified it. They didn't.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: dndlmx on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:11:58
GNU Hurd (the actual gnu kernel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd

AKA longest running joke of the free software world.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: hashbaz on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:25:43
Unix clone ≠ based on unix.
For it to be unix based they would have had to have taken and modified the actual unix source code and modified it. They didn't.

I don't think "based" has as strict a meaning as you think it does.  You're not wrong that the Linux source code was developed independently, but it's fair to say that it was based (conceptually) on UNIX.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: alaricljs on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:39:24
black box reverse engineered or identical input produces identical output are both "based on"
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: bigx333 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:58:07
GNU Hurd (the actual gnu kernel)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Hurd

AKA longest running joke of the free software world.

And yet one of the best kernel designs ever made, so sad it will most likely never be really usable.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 31 July 2013, 13:09:51
Ubuntu is has the most $$$ backing it at the moment and seems to have the most active development so I will discuss it for a moment.

What? O_o


i do not understand your confusion.
canonical has tons of service/maintenance contracts  that they use to pay for some to there projects.

i am discussing this from a workstation point of view.

from a server view centos is killing redhat enterprise. i qm on tapatalk and can't type a lot as i have a meeting to run off to.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:43:18
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".

GNU doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Linux. That's just Stallman's way of "wording" it because he still can't get over the face some college kid beat him to it 20 years ago.  And yes Linux was modelled after UNIX (if you like that term better.) That's why the 'nux is there. Linus himself has mentioned this in several interviews over the years when asked about the name of Linux.

...now if I had said clone...that may have been inappropriate, but I didn't.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:45:00
Ubuntu is has the most $$$ backing it at the moment and seems to have the most active development so I will discuss it for a moment.

What? O_o


i do not understand your confusion.
canonical has tons of service/maintenance contracts  that they use to pay for some to there projects.

i am discussing this from a workstation point of view.

from a server view centos is killing redhat enterprise. i qm on tapatalk and can't type a lot as i have a meeting to run off to.

wat

Canonical is a joke compared to Red Hat. They still aren't profitable and their cooperation with upstream is a failure.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: CommunistWitchDr on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:46:27
Modeled after or inspired by would be correct and make more sense than based on. Or even saying the concept is based on unix works. But saying the system as a whole is based on unix is misleading, even if you do argue it's correct in some sense of the word.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:47:38
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".

GNU doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Linux. That's just Stallman's way of "wording" it. because he still can't get over the face some college kid beat him to it.  And yes Linux was modelled after UNIX (if you like that term better.)

UNIX-like yes, but no way it's UNIX-based. That's why SCO didn't win.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: bigx333 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:57:22
BSD (Berkeley Software Distribution) was fully licensed from ATT. The other versions are open/free branches based on BSD. Just like Linux is based on UNIX. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Unix_history-simple.svg

GNU/Linux is in no way based on Unix, it is just Unix like. Just like if I went out and made an operating system that resembled Windows from scratch it wouldn't be Windows based, just Windows like.

Fun fact- GNU actually stands for "GNU's not Unix".

GNU doesn't necessarily have anything to do with Linux. That's just Stallman's way of "wording" it because he still can't get over the face some college kid beat him to it 20 years ago.  And yes Linux was modelled after UNIX (if you like that term better.) That's why the 'nux is there. Linus himself has mentioned this in several interviews over the years when asked about the name of Linux.

...now if I had said clone...that may have been inappropriate, but I didn't.

LOLWUT?

Without GNU software the Linux kernel can't even be compiled, the Linux eco system IS GNU and Linux can't exist in a usable state without it.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:10:50
You guys keep going more and more off topic. You sound like Stallman. Linux is the kernel -  the OS. It was developed completely independently of GNU on a Minix box. With that kernel you can use whatever tools you want on top of that whether they are GNU or custom programs. Both types of Linux exist. Some use GNU and some don't.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: bigx333 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:24:46
You guys keep going more and more off topic. You sound like Stallman. Linux is the kernel - the main part of the OS. It was developed completely independently of GNU on a Minix box. With that kernel you can use whatever tools you want on top of that whether they are GNU or custom programs. Both types of Linux exist. Some use GNU and some don't.

On a Minix box using GCC 1.40, the compiler that is a child of the GNU project and which is REQUIRED to this day to compile Linux since it doesn't compile with LLVM or ICC.

Unlike system's like FreeBSD where the world is GNU free, Linux cannot exist without GNU.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:30:31
...anyway...

There are several Linux distributions out there that are ready to use right out of the box even for noobs or Stallman lovers ;)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: jdcarpe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 16:16:22
From my own personal experience, I have installed Ubuntu/Xubuntu on my wife's machines, and she was able to do everything she uses her PC for without difficulty. And she is a typical (non-geek) user. Of course, she has live-in tech support if she needs it, but from a usability standpoint, the *buntu's are there now. She doesn't really notice much of a difference from her experience running Windows.

I don't get caught up in semantics, like the RMS followers do. What most people call "Linux" is indeed a distro, not just the kernel. It seems some of the more successful distros have distanced themselves from being called "Linux." See Ubuntu, Fedora, CentOS, Android. So the "operating system" is a set of programs (incl. GNU, etc.) which run on top of the (Linux) kernel. It's a distro, and if people want to call their OS "Linux," what is the harm? Of course, Mac OS X (and by extension iOS), is UNIX-like at its core, using the Darwin kernel, which itself is based off BSD/Mach.

I really wish GNU/Hurd was stable, but I really doubt that will ever happen.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 16:24:35
What about different kernels in Debian?
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 31 July 2013, 16:32:33
What about different kernels in Debian?
it seems like you already know the answer to this.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: id0827502 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:13:56
Linux threads always turn into perdantic nit-picking. Makes me sad. I sort of think that's why it's not perhaps doing as well as it could, because the community and the developers can't get over themselves.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:21:57
Linux threads always turn into perdantic nit-picking. Makes me sad. I sort of think that's why it's not perhaps doing as well as it could, because the community and the developers can't get over themselves.

I agree. Users more than developers though.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Wed, 31 July 2013, 17:54:32
Linux threads always turn into perdantic nit-picking. Makes me sad. I sort of think that's why it's not perhaps doing as well as it could, because the community and the developers can't get over themselves.

Using that kind of "logic", there shouldn't be any GeForce/Radeon owners because of flamewars on the internets...
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: id0827502 on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:59:46
Linux threads always turn into perdantic nit-picking. Makes me sad. I sort of think that's why it's not perhaps doing as well as it could, because the community and the developers can't get over themselves.

Using that kind of "logic", there shouldn't be any GeForce/Radeon owners because of flamewars on the internets...

Not really.

Difference being a commercial entity and one that is propelled by community and open sharing. Money will help sell itself, whereas with something that is open and free, it instinctively comes to as something that has no value or has less value than the paid alternative.

When you're trying to convince people to move over to an open and free alternative, and yet you're punishing them for not understanding something as irrelevant as how to refer to what the thing even is, the potential users are gonna become confused, irritated, and move away.

It's like one of those moody kids in high school that snap at you for asking how they are. You get a "**** off!" for being curious and you're not likely to ask again whereas the pretty chick with the nice-smelling perfume always responds with "Great thanks! How are you?" and you're more inclined to ask again, even elaborate if you gather the balls to.

Money sucks, but it does what it's supposed to do and does it well.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: domoaligato on Wed, 31 July 2013, 22:28:01
Narcix  has not replied since he opened this discussion :(
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 22:45:47
We scared him off with all the OT BS and inaccurate pedantry.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 31 July 2013, 22:46:27
Narcix  has not replied since he opened this discussion :(

Probably overwhelmed by the discussion ;)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: id0827502 on Thu, 01 August 2013, 00:00:56
We scared him off with all the OT BS and inaccurate pedantry.

This.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: davkol on Thu, 01 August 2013, 00:24:47
To be honest, "how it is compared to windows?" sounds more like a flamebait. Flamebait that never fails.

Linux threads always turn into perdantic nit-picking. Makes me sad. I sort of think that's why it's not perhaps doing as well as it could, because the community and the developers can't get over themselves.

Using that kind of "logic", there shouldn't be any GeForce/Radeon owners because of flamewars on the internets...

Not really.

Difference being a commercial entity and one that is propelled by community and open sharing. Money will help sell itself, whereas with something that is open and free, it instinctively comes to as something that has no value or has less value than the paid alternative.

When you're trying to convince people to move over to an open and free alternative, and yet you're punishing them for not understanding something as irrelevant as how to refer to what the thing even is, the potential users are gonna become confused, irritated, and move away.

Money sucks, but it does what it's supposed to do and does it well.

Nah, there are plenty of companies that offer free software for monies.

As someone said, Unix is user-friendly, it just chooses its friends carefully. I consider this to be some kind of a filter. If somebody is discouraged from using something only because of flamewars on the internets, I'm glad that person won't bother anyone with stupid questions—it's usually that kind of users that expects "windoze for free" and fails in reading comprehention (or worse, doesn't read at all).

I'm not trying to convert anyone anymore... they just convert by themselves if they want me to provide them tech support.

Quote
It's like one of those moody kids in high school that snap at you for asking how they are. You get a "**** off!" for being curious and you're not likely to ask again whereas the pretty chick with the nice-smelling perfume always responds with "Great thanks! How are you?" and you're more inclined to ask again, even elaborate if you gather the balls to.

I don't think so. There's a huge cultural gap, take a look at all the flames about some Linus' quotes.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: Burz on Thu, 01 August 2013, 23:24:03
As someone said, Unix is user-friendly, it just chooses its friends carefully. I consider this to be some kind of a filter.
I heartily agree. Most of the Linux desktop advocates switched to Mac OS X (certified Unix) almost a decade ago.

Interesting confluence of user-friendly and choosiness there.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: sth on Thu, 01 August 2013, 23:32:46
As someone said, Unix is user-friendly, it just chooses its friends carefully. I consider this to be some kind of a filter.
I heartily agree. Most of the Linux desktop advocates switched to Mac OS X (certified Unix) almost a decade ago.

Interesting confluence of user-friendly and choosiness there.


:)
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Fri, 02 August 2013, 03:55:53
To be honest, "how it is compared to windows?" sounds more like a flamebait. Flamebait that never fails.

This dude might be trolling. Here is another thread he started: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46473.msg981773#msg981773
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: jdcarpe on Fri, 02 August 2013, 08:29:28
I don't believe it's trolling; I think it was a plea for help.
Title: Re: Anyone here uses linux?
Post by: smknjoe on Fri, 02 August 2013, 08:42:30
Well, if his inquiry was genuine I hope he gets the help he needs and I rescind my previous statement.