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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:20:16

Title: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:20:16
So, functionally, I know the difference between mechs and Topre. Or at least, I have a base of information to work off of. And obviously, they're new, which makes them immediately desirable. But practically, what's different about them? How do they compare to the Cherry MXs we're all used to? Is it really worth more money?

I've seen the facts, let's hear some opinions.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Photekq on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:28:01
Keyswitches are entirely a matter of opinion. You either love topre or hate it. If you love it then it's worth the money. If not then it probably isn't..

They aren't better, some people just prefer them.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:29:16
Topres aren't new. They've been around at least 10-20 years. There are a bunch of threads out there doing comparisons, but in a nutshell they are really nice rubber domes. Not far from the ones that come standard with every new desktop.

Edit: Looks like they have made them for about 30 years or so.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=MjEuAAAAEBAJ
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:32:12
Well, comparatively new. A decade+ isn't all that long compared to mechs.
I'm happy with MX, so I probably wont be changing. I was just curious what everyone here thought about them
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Photekq on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:34:43
Well, comparatively new. A decade+ isn't all that long compared to mechs.
I'm happy with MX, so I probably wont be changing. I was just curious what everyone here thought about them
They're tactile but very smooth according to what I've read. You can't go by opinions.. because they are just that - opinions. You need to try them and decide for yourself, as everyone has a different preference.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: smknjoe on Wed, 31 July 2013, 03:35:45
I have several mx boards, bs, and a HHKB. They are all nice, but Topre is really just a really smooth rubber dome. Very well built. You really won't know how you like them until you use one.

Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 31 July 2013, 04:56:55
The feel - different to MX.

The sound - different to MX.

The custom keycap availability - different to MX.

They are just a different switch.  As is buckling spring.  And all the others.

Personally I quite like Topre - I can rattle off a quick sentence or two almost without thinking about it, and generally with less typos than on MX (blue, black, red).
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: WhiteFireDragon on Wed, 31 July 2013, 05:27:10
How do they compare to the Cherry MXs we're all used to? Is it really worth more money?

...let's hear some opinions.

What something is worth, is relative to how bad you want it and/or your income.

Asking for general opinions of MX vs topre is rather vague. You're not going to get a straight forward answer. Also, this topic has been covered many many times already, use the search function so you don't have to wait for responses.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 06:54:25
How do they compare to the Cherry MXs we're all used to? Is it really worth more money?

...let's hear some opinions.

What something is worth, is relative to how bad you want it and/or your income.

Asking for general opinions of MX vs topre is rather vague. You're not going to get a straight forward answer. Also, this topic has been covered many many times already, use the search function so you don't have to wait for responses.

You're right, value and worth are both very subjective terms, which is why I specifically asked for opinions. Based on your situation, have you felt the need to buy an HHKB or other Topre (if there is any? HHKB is all I hear about on the subject) and if you have bought it, do you feel it was a good investment, or would have been better spent elsewhere?

And yes, it is a pretty vague topic, but that's mostly because I don't know enough about it to ask specific questions, so I'm just looking to get a feel for people's perspective on the matter. If I want facts, I use the search function. But I don't want facts, I want dialogue and interaction. So I asked you. If it's something you've answered before, and find you've reached the end of your patience on the subject, there's no obligation to interact with me back. I don't, however, see the point in sending someone new to the search function, as it's essentially telling a person

"We have too many people like you, and we've already put up with all of their stupid questions. We don't need another person who asks stupid questions, so please don't interact with us."

I've been a lurker here for a couple months, and I decided to finally sign up because I wanted to participate, and be a part of this community.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:02:26
"We have too many people like you, and we've already put up with all of their stupid questions. We don't need another person who asks stupid questions, so please don't interact with us."

I've been a lurker here for a couple months, and I decided to finally sign up because I wanted to participate, and be a part of this community.

Look at it from another point of view: Every three days or so, the same topic comes up and the same answers are given. Why should any of us just repeat ourselves from three days ago? When you reopen the same topic in a different thread, it just looks like you haven't done any research or read anything and decided to just post something new when you could've hopped in on one of the many other threads and gotten the same opinions.

I'm not saying that you did that, I'm just saying how it can look. And I mean "us" and "you" in the general sense, not you and me personally.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Danule on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:20:19
topre = smooth thock's
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:37:36
"We have too many people like you, and we've already put up with all of their stupid questions. We don't need another person who asks stupid questions, so please don't interact with us."

I've been a lurker here for a couple months, and I decided to finally sign up because I wanted to participate, and be a part of this community.

Look at it from another point of view: Every three days or so, the same topic comes up and the same answers are given. Why should any of us just repeat ourselves from three days ago? When you reopen the same topic in a different thread, it just looks like you haven't done any research or read anything and decided to just post something new when you could've hopped in on one of the many other threads and gotten the same opinions.

I'm not saying that you did that, I'm just saying how it can look. And I mean "us" and "you" in the general sense, not you and me personally.

No, I understand. I did go back a couple pages and didn't find anything regarding Topre in a general sense (which is all I'm interested in) and addressing personal opinions on the matter and figured I'd be safe putting up the question out there. I've definitely been on the frustrated side of the fence here as well, I just don't think a thread provoking discussion and opinions fits that bill.

That being said, I don't feel WhiteFireDragon was particularly tactless in his suggestion, I've just witnessed too many potential community members be shut out of a given community because they either got put down for asking a simple question, or because they're simply too new to know there's even a function for search.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 07:43:44
I actually started a thread just for this situation where you want to ask something quick but don't know where to turn. Not sure if you've ever seen it but it's called the Simple Questions Simple Answers (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40501.0) thread. I'd be more than happy, or anyone else who regularly is in that thread, to point you to some threads or answer quick questions.

I'm kind of on the fence about the questions thing. It's great to ask questions and I encourage it (I've answered questions for more than 100 pages). But I just feel that a lot of newer people don't do any research/reading at all. It irks me that there are so many members putting out such good information and no one wants to take two minutes to find it. I've had people straight up ask me to Google things for them because they're too lazy to do it themselves.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:03:38
I actually started a thread just for this situation where you want to ask something quick but don't know where to turn. Not sure if you've ever seen it but it's called the Simple Questions Simple Answers (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40501.0) thread. I'd be more than happy, or anyone else who regularly is in that thread, to point you to some threads or answer quick questions.

I'm kind of on the fence about the questions thing. It's great to ask questions and I encourage it (I've answered questions for more than 100 pages). But I just feel that a lot of newer people don't do any research/reading at all. It irks me that there are so many members putting out such good information and no one wants to take two minutes to find it. I've had people straight up ask me to Google things for them because they're too lazy to do it themselves.

Well that has to be an extreme case, and I would never argue that you're not justified in your frustration. And I had forgotten about the thread in question, though I think I would still have posted this topic anyways. It's a simple question, but I feel it's not necessarily a simple answer.

I think it's funny now that we're discussing the existence of the topic in more depth and intensity than the topic itself.

Lucky me, though, discussion was the goal, and not necessarily the topic. So I'll call this one a triumph.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:14:32
In case you didn't see, I recorded my thoughts on Topre here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=42669.0#post_Chi) and here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41117.msg820437#post_Keys).

Now we're back on topic! :P
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: BunnyLake on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:22:10
my opinion is simple

i love topre

i only picked up some topre boards recently but i adore them and am totally off of mx now, but, like everyone says, its a matter of opinion, the price is worth it to me because for me the typing experience is massively superior, i would suggest however that you try before you buy, as they arent for everyone
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: jameslr on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:24:21
From a noob perspective, having not even touched a Topre switch - Topre seems to be a niche for those that have tried everything MX/Alps/etc and still like the feel of rubber domes without the actuation force requirements or durability concerns. I think the average rubber dome keyboard is around 70g or higher actuation force and has a longer travel length than any mechanical switch. Topre keys have shorter travel. Again, just what I've gleaned from the reading I've done. I don't think I'd pay the money for a Topre based keyboard at this stage of the game as I'm still getting used to and enjoying MX switches.

I suspect after long enough use of MX switches I'll want to try something different. Partly because I like to explore different options, and also as a budding enthusiast I would like to expand my collection. So, if it's purely a practicality question, it's probably just up to personal taste, but I'm guessing a lot of people get Topre keyboards because they're sort of a club.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: oTurtlez on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:31:06
Every time I see a thread about Topre, everyone neglects to mention it's a capacitive switch that you don't need to bottom out for the keypress to measure. And to address James' statement, I got my first Topre board because one popped up at a steal for 170 in the classifieds. I had only tried MX Blues and Reds on actual keyboards, blacks on a tenkey, and two of those three were PCB mounted (which I truly hate) before I got my Topre. In comparison to other rubber domes, Topre is much lighter, smoother, and makes a much better sound. The boards ooze quality out of every seam, and they're just phenomenal products. That being said, I still use MX and BS. I like a bit of spice in my keyboard life so every now and then a nice curveball keeps everything different. As everyone else has stated, Topre is EXTREMELY hit or miss. Either you love it or you hate it. Simple as that. The only way you're going to know is by trying it for yourself.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:43:40
Yes, there has been a switch topre 20s years ago as well as cherry ;D black switch is first switches of cherry MX.

HHKB made from<PS> plastic  Yes,realforce is better for build and use Pbt Dye keycap
and maybe Made in Japan makes expensive like fujitsu corp (HHKB)

http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/what-costs-in-topres-i-don-t-get-it-t3295-30.html (http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/what-costs-in-topres-i-don-t-get-it-t3295-30.html)

 :D try asking DT to also
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:45:48
You don't have to bottom out on MX or Alps either?

Regardless, I'm in the miss category.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:46:20
I'm definitely curious, and I'd love to try it, but I just don't see an opportunity on the horizon, short of me sucking it up and dishing out 200 bucks for one.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:47:28
There's no meetups being organized on KBD or OTD? You're located in an amazing place for custom keyboards and keyboarding stuff in general.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:49:20
The smart money's on Topre, **** what the dummies thought
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:52:07
I'm definitely curious, and I'd love to try it, but I just don't see an opportunity on the horizon, short of me sucking it up and dishing out 200 bucks for one.
buy secondhand under $200 or buy type heaven
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:56:11
There's no meetups being organized on KBD or OTD? You're located in an amazing place for custom keyboards and keyboarding stuff in general.

You know, you bring up a valid point. I do have a couple friends who speak Mongol fluently, I think the biggest barrier would be knowing where to look to find such a gathering. Are there any members known to be on the peninsula, with a good grasp of english and would be keeping up with meets? Or at least have an idea of where to find the meets?

I'd also really like to give buckling springs a shot while I'm at it.

If I end up heading that way, anyone looking for anything in specific that they'd like to take advantage of APO shipping for? (same prices as CONUS shipping)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 08:57:02
Oh, you might have answered my question before I answered it. What are KBD and ODT?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: oTurtlez on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:00:32
You don't have to bottom out on MX or Alps either?

Regardless, I'm in the miss category.

You don't, but you DO for normal domes. That's the key difference.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:10:08
KBD and OTD is famous keyboard forum from korean
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:19:22
Yeah, I'm on otd.kr right now, but google translate is not helping as much as I need it to. I'm not having much luck making heads or tails over here.

Maybe it being midnight isn't helping. I'll give it another shot tomorrow.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: jspark on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:30:00
Well, the problem is.... Okay let's be honest.
I'm sick of explaining that switches are all about preferences, and there is no switch better than the other objectively when people, who just got interested in Mechanical keyboards, ask me about Topre switches.
They just judge it based on the price. Even though I answer like that, they just think that "but there are some reasons why it is more expensive. Something good and Something better."

Because of Topre's higher price, new guys tend to think Topre is the best because it is more expensive.

If you can read Korean, even you can see this tendency at KBDMania as well. They call a Topre Keyboard as a destination. Destination from what?

Now, I don't care.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: yasuo on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:33:30
Yeah, I'm on otd.kr right now, but google translate is not helping as much as I need it to. I'm not having much luck making heads or tails over here.

Maybe it being midnight isn't helping. I'll give it another shot tomorrow.
I suggest trying to DT also :cool:
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 09:53:44
Well, the problem is.... Okay let's be honest.
I'm sick of explaining that switches are all about preferences, and there is no switch better than the other objectively when people, who just got interested in Mechanical keyboards, ask me about Topre switches.
They just judge it based on the price. Even though I answer like that, they just think that "but there are some reasons why it is more expensive. Something good and Something better."

Because of Topre's higher price, new guys tend to think Topre is the best because it is more expensive.

If you can read Korean, even you can see this tendency at KBDMania as well. They call a Topre Keyboard as a destination. Destination from what?

Now, I don't care.

See, I've been in the wetshaving world too long to try and quantify everything in that way. If you have a hobby, then it's yours. Yours alone. You can relate that hobby to other people that share parts of it, but you'll have one thing that is perfect for you. One keyboard, or keycap, or modifier set that is your perfect piece. So that's why I'm only interested in your subjective thoughts. What about topre makes you like or dislike it? Are you used to something else? Were you looking for a change? How long did you use MX before you realized you wanted more? Did you always feel unsatisfied with MX switches, or were they the best thing in the world at one point and you grew tired of them?

I'm not looking for people to put their thoughts into numbers, into quantifiable data, I want to know how you feel, and what you think makes you feel that way.

I know it's all preference, but my goal has always been an interest in perspective. I want to know how you feel. So no more of this "Everyone's going to have a different view" I don't care that your view is different than mine. I want to know what your view is.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: badcop on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:07:54
topre is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:09:57
Why is the sky blue?

BECAUSE GOD LOVES THE INFANTRY
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: PadawanGeek on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:12:47
I have way too many MX KB's, from Filco to Ducky to Cooler Master (at least two or more of each), as well as a Lexmark Model M. I had recently acquired a Topre RF 103UB-55G and I absolutely love it. That doesn't mean I'm giving up on MX boards, far from it as I'd be getting another MX board in the aluminum YOTS, and to scratch that Topre itch I'm having, I'd be getting a HHKB Pro2 together with the YOTS. As for typing with Topre, it feels like a smooth and quiet buckling spring to me (best way I can describe it as I'm a newb), not dissimilar to typing with Black, except it has a somehow smoother feel. As some have said, it either you like it or you don't.,,,,just like how some like Blue over Brown, or Red over Blue and such....it boils down to personal preference. When I type on my Topre, I just don't feel like stopping, it's.....I don't know......it's so hard to quantify, you have just got to try it yourself and see if your fingers like it. Typing on Topre has changed me a little, I didn't used to really like Black as much as I do Blue and Brown, but now, I like Black immensely......just so smooth and a tad heavy, the way I like it.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: jspark on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:43:39
Well, the problem is.... Okay let's be honest.
I'm sick of explaining that switches are all about preferences, and there is no switch better than the other objectively when people, who just got interested in Mechanical keyboards, ask me about Topre switches.
They just judge it based on the price. Even though I answer like that, they just think that "but there are some reasons why it is more expensive. Something good and Something better."

Because of Topre's higher price, new guys tend to think Topre is the best because it is more expensive.

If you can read Korean, even you can see this tendency at KBDMania as well. They call a Topre Keyboard as a destination. Destination from what?

Now, I don't care.

See, I've been in the wetshaving world too long to try and quantify everything in that way. If you have a hobby, then it's yours. Yours alone. You can relate that hobby to other people that share parts of it, but you'll have one thing that is perfect for you. One keyboard, or keycap, or modifier set that is your perfect piece. So that's why I'm only interested in your subjective thoughts. What about topre makes you like or dislike it? Are you used to something else? Were you looking for a change? How long did you use MX before you realized you wanted more? Did you always feel unsatisfied with MX switches, or were they the best thing in the world at one point and you grew tired of them?

I'm not looking for people to put their thoughts into numbers, into quantifiable data, I want to know how you feel, and what you think makes you feel that way.

I know it's all preference, but my goal has always been an interest in perspective. I want to know how you feel. So no more of this "Everyone's going to have a different view" I don't care that your view is different than mine. I want to know what your view is.

I prefer clicky switches over any other types, but I still cannot say which one is the best switch.
I have MX blue, brown, black, red, green, clear, dark grey, model m, and HHKB2. Even though I prefer greens the most, I cannot say green is better than the other.
I enjoy every other different key switches. They have their own tastes.
And it is all up to my mind, sometimes I prefer blacks or clears more than greens. When I got angry, I prefer model M a lot, heh.
What I'm saying is I consider all the switches equally.
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 10:47:46
.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: jspark on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:09:41
I've been into wetshaving for a good amount of time as well, and I can tell you that saying there is one perfect thing for everyone is another opinion. It's not always true. I'd rather have an array of different things, liking them for what they are, than to have one "perfect" thing.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Danule on Wed, 31 July 2013, 11:59:48
Its nice to see some fellow wet shavers on here!  What razor blades do you guys prefer?  My favorite so far are Bic's
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: dndlmx on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:07:41
...in a nutshell they are really nice rubber domes. Not far from the ones that come standard with every new desktop.

Hardly, they have plastic plungers with a spring landing, they *snap* back, and sprooinggg...  :p
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 12:08:18
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Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:57:06
I've been into wetshaving for a good amount of time as well, and I can tell you that saying there is one perfect thing for everyone is another opinion. It's not always true. I'd rather have an array of different things, liking them for what they are, than to have one "perfect" thing.

Yeah, I realized my mistake last night when I typed it. It felt good to me, as I've recently found the right DE for me, but practically, it doesn't make sense. Consider how many old timers have a 7 or 14 day rotation of brushed and razors. If I walked up and said you just having found the one that's right for you yet I'd probably get a long discussion about how of course they have. They've found 14 brushes that are good for them, and they're all in the rotation.

As we say over on badgerandblade.com

YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary)
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 14:59:12
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Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:08:16
And even if the items don't make it into your rotation of use, I still like to collect them. I have I don't even know how many razors right now, but I love them all, and I only use one everyday. The same thing goes for keyboards. I'm not opposed to stacking boxes of them in a corner and never using them, because I know I love them for what they are as an individual.

I had to read this a couple times, I thought you meant you had a bunch of razer keyboards
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:11:42
Here are some accurate numbers that all GH members agree on.

Staggered keyboard: 0

Ergodox: OVER 9000
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:17:45
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Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: margo baggins on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:18:18
My topre board arrived today. I think it`s awesome. especially the hhkb layout, and the thock thock thock sound. and it is very smooth.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:19:35
Dumb question time. Are there plated and unplated HHKBs? I swear the HHKB I tried in Chicago had zero thocking and the boards only thock if they have plates IIRC.
Title: .
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:23:49
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Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:24:32
Dumb question time. Are there plated and unplated HHKBs? I swear the HHKB I tried in Chicago had zero thocking and the boards only thock if they have plates IIRC.

Isn't there a 'silent' version?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:26:05
Yeah, maybe it was a Type S?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:26:24
-_-

That's good to know then. I tried Tipo33's HHKB and there was zero thocking. Of course I also didn't slam on it.

Dumb question time. Are there plated and unplated HHKBs? I swear the HHKB I tried in Chicago had zero thocking and the boards only thock if they have plates IIRC.

Isn't there a 'silent' version?

Yes but I know nothing about Topre so I'm not sure if the HHKB has a silent version or not. I know Realforces can be silent. I've ignored all things Topre since I tried them in Chicago but I want to try them again at Keycon just to confirm my thoughts on Topre.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Sniping on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:32:25
Isn't the HHKB case-mounted?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 15:35:26
Isn't the HHKB case-mounted?

Case mounted? What is that?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:05:03
That means the switches are mounted into the case (which has an internal component) vs. a plate. 

As far as the thock....HHKBs have the most out of any of the current Topre boards...More than the Leo and a LOT more than the RF....Plate mounted = less thock.

It is really hard to evaluate Topre in just a few minutes..or a few days...Especially when you're used to Cherry, when you first try Topre you'll think..these are just rubber domes!  They feel just like normal rubber domes!  And immediately a lot of people will think..well if they're rubber domes, what a waste..Now, some people will give them more time and realize..well, these aren't just like my rubber dome keyboards..they are similar in many ways but different in others...and some just won't...

Personally I think they're fantastic for typing...not so great for gaming..and the variable RF is really bad for gaming (and no way anyone can convince me that a key that can actuate just by resting your finger on it is good for gamin).  One of the biggest downsides to Topre though is the lack of available options...Keycaps are essentially non-existent (there are some, including CCs but not a lot)...You don't see any custom keyboards (because the switches aren't sold like that)...
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:11:33
I've never ever heard plate mount called case mount.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:29:30
I've never ever heard plate mount called case mount.

That's because it isn't.

Plate mount = Mounted on a Plate.

HHKB does not have a plate.  It is NOT, however, just mounted onto just a PCB.  It actually mounts into the case.  Just google up some pics, you'll see what I mean....I forgot who started calling it case mounted but that term is probably really accurate...
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:31:51
Interesting. Thanks for the knowledge! For anyone who's interested:

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8103019712_bc9fa4b3ee_h.jpg)

From here (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=258988)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: daerid on Wed, 31 July 2013, 20:55:28
That's because it isn't.

Plate mount = Mounted on a Plate.

HHKB does not have a plate.  It is NOT, however, just mounted onto just a PCB.  It actually mounts into the case.  Just google up some pics, you'll see what I mean....I forgot who started calling it case mounted but that term is probably really accurate...

That was probably me
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 31 July 2013, 21:09:29
Interesting to see what's inside a HHKB - thanks for posting :)

I am unlikely to disassemble mine in the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: AKIMbO on Wed, 31 July 2013, 21:21:35
Interesting to see what's inside a HHKB - thanks for posting :)

I am unlikely to disassemble mine in the foreseeable future.

What?  You must disassemble it....lube the metal stablizer bars....then reassemble it.  It quiets the stablizers considerably.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Wed, 31 July 2013, 21:26:57
Interesting to see what's inside a HHKB - thanks for posting :)

I am unlikely to disassemble mine in the foreseeable future.

What?  You must disassemble it....lube the metal stablizer bars....then reassemble it.  It quiets the stablizers considerably.

I have two Model M to refurbish first, then probably a few keycap sets to play with, then after that ...
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Photekq on Wed, 31 July 2013, 22:56:02
Interesting. Thanks for the knowledge! For anyone who's interested:

Show Image
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8103019712_bc9fa4b3ee_h.jpg)


From here (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=258988)
This is why there will most likely never be a metal HHKB case. Too hard to replicate and too expensive to produce.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:00:06
Interesting. Thanks for the knowledge! For anyone who's interested:

Show Image
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8044/8103019712_bc9fa4b3ee_h.jpg)


From here (http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=258988)
This is why there will most likely never be a metal HHKB case. Too hard to replicate and too expensive to produce.

You could probably make some thin metal cladding that would fit around the existing plastic case.

Or maybe a metal case bottom and a metal cladding to fit around the case top.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Topre on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:07:17
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:11:19
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.

Well there you go.

I'd never heard of that anniversary model.

Nice :)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Photekq on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:12:03
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.
'just' :))
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Topre on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:17:51
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.
'just' :))

Well they aren't for sale anymore, so a bit of force such as guns or tanks might be required to get it from a place that does have it. Or you can get a job at a secret location in which you may be able to smuggle one out.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:25:48
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.
'just' :))

Well they aren't for sale anymore, so a bit of force such as guns or tanks might be required to get it from a place that does have it. Or you can get a job at a secret location in which you may be able to smuggle one out.

Is that all? ;)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Topre on Thu, 01 August 2013, 01:34:14
Or just buy a HHKB Professional HG. Metal cases since 2006.
'just' :))

Well they aren't for sale anymore, so a bit of force such as guns or tanks might be required to get it from a place that does have it. Or you can get a job at a secret location in which you may be able to smuggle one out.

Is that all? ;)

Well you will have to find someone that has one, or the location of where you can find more than one. I will not be revealing this location because I do plan on doing something. ;)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: dndlmx on Thu, 01 August 2013, 03:49:42
There's a room inside the pfu headquarters like in mission impossible. You have to come down on a wire like tom cruise. That's also where they keep the hhkb 3.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: fantus on Thu, 01 August 2013, 15:18:03
Every time I see a thread about Topre, everyone neglects to mention it's a capacitive switch that you don't need to bottom out for the keypress to measure. And to address James' statement, I got my first Topre board because one popped up at a steal for 170 in the classifieds. I had only tried MX Blues and Reds on actual keyboards, blacks on a tenkey, and two of those three were PCB mounted (which I truly hate) before I got my Topre. In comparison to other rubber domes, Topre is much lighter, smoother, and makes a much better sound. The boards ooze quality out of every seam, and they're just phenomenal products.

You have a very similar situation and opinion as I do. Personally I have only owned a MX brown filco and a north-gate with white alps before purchasing the Topre. What I have to say is that the sound is what really made the purchase for me; when gaming with friends over mumble or skype, my microphone was catching the loud sound of the mechanical switches.

I will say that my Topre is a 55g. When I first bought it over a year and a half ago I was worried that - coming from experiencing white alps - the high actuation force and metal plate might cause a heavy impact.  My fingers felt RATTLED when typing on white alps. In retrospect the shock was actually created by the short key travel after a high actuation, this gave too short of a time for me to slow down my keypress. However after a few weeks of typing experience on a 55g Topre the impact turned out to not be a problem. I remember when I was actively lurking on the geekhack forums two years ago there was a widely quoted analogy - 'Cloud of Boobs' - which is more accurate than I expected (I realize that this analogy also refers to the shape of the rubber domes :P). I think I should highlight the fact that it took 2 weeks of heavy use for my fingers to adapt to the high actuation force of this keyboard, in that time my finger muscles grew. Because of my stronger fingers I had a new love of the now relatively VERY light mx-brown switches, but I unfortunately had to sell the Filco to finance this purchase. It is not my belief that the 2 weeks of heavy use acted to break in the rubber domes since I purchased my board used.

Another one of the perks that come with this keyboard I only first experienced just a few weeks ago. At the time I decided to clean my keyboard of all the gunk that had accumulated between the keys from the past 1.5 years. I took apart the board with no problems, and found that you could unscrew the circuit board from the metal plate (and plastic keyswitches) to easily access the rubberdomes and copper coils. This design philosophy allowed me to wash the metal plate as well as the insides of the keyswitches with no worries of harming the circuit board or rubber domes that had just been removed, and then quickly dry them out with a hairdryer. (Sadly when I reapplied the metal plate I miscovered the numberpad enter's rubber dome, so it no-longer actuates. To explain; the domes are not all stuck to the circuit board allowing some to shift around on the circuit board when the metal plate is removed. I had forgotten to re-position the rubberdome and copper coil of my numberpad enter key upon reapplying the plate) This design also allows an easy mod which involves DIY soft landing pads. If I can find a silicon sheet retailer in Canada I will definitely try it (upon which time I will fix the aforementioned  key). I have little memory of the time I cleaned my Filco, but I believe that the keyswitches were soldered into the circuit board making it harder to clean or mod out different mx switches.

The few complaints I have with this keyboard is the lack of Topre keycap group buys, the lack of an ABS plastic spacebar (which is now sooooo shiny), the hard to read dark keycaps (I have the black version and wish I had the white one), and the sad fact that availability of such an awesome product is so scarce (or unaffordable) in Canada. At the end of the day I have been using this keyboard for a year and a half - which was bought used - and have had very few problems or wear to the keyboard itself.

In retrospect I realize that apart from the noise level and a few perks of the build quality, between this and my previous Filco there is little differentiation in appreciation. That being said I paid only $20-$30 more (This is outstanding considering that I live in Canada), which justifies the purchase. It would be hard for me to recommend this board to someone else without a similarly outstanding deal. However if the sound of mechanical keys is a problem for you it would be hard to find  a better keyboard experience than a Topre to fit those extenuating circumstance (to my knowledge). Remember this is a premium product and there is little reason you should buy it if you are not: 1. An avid keyboard collector, or 2. In heavy need of a quiet high quality keyboard (a large budget doesn't hurt either).

The more I post in these Topre review forums the more I realize they are circle jerking people's opinions and previous decisions, I  would support having a stickied thread to answer the question of MX vs Topre so we as a community can move on.

tl;dr Only read this if you need anecdotal evidence and my own personal experience with Topre keyboards and keyswitches before you make a decision. If you don't feel like reading it before making a decision, then I personally believe you are far too careless with your expendable income. If you have all ready made up your mind on the topic, don't bother wasting your time reading mine. Of course, the decision is yours :)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Thu, 01 August 2013, 19:31:37
Is there a reason there aren't more group buys? I know there's enough people interested, and most people have issue with the price, which group buys would help alleviate.

And hopefully there comes more keycap options in the near future. I just don't think it's spread far enough yet.

Also, I've got in contact with one of our Korean members, in an attept to find information on any upcoming conventions, but he's saying there aren't as many as we might think. There might be some small gatherings, however.

I also talked to one of our Korean augmentations to the us army, and ended up having to spend 20 minutes trying to describe what a convention is. He decided he could take me to an electronic's store, and I gave up.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 01 August 2013, 20:39:15
Is there a reason there aren't more group buys? I know there's enough people interested, and most people have issue with the price, which group buys would help alleviate.

And hopefully there comes more keycap options in the near future. I just don't think it's spread far enough yet.

Also, I've got in contact with one of our Korean members, in an attept to find information on any upcoming conventions, but he's saying there aren't as many as we might think. There might be some small gatherings, however.

I also talked to one of our Korean augmentations to the us army, and ended up having to spend 20 minutes trying to describe what a convention is. He decided he could take me to an electronic's store, and I gave up.

Nobody makes topre keys (like SP makes mx) to do group buys with.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Thu, 01 August 2013, 20:51:58
Well, they have to be manufactured someplace. And I didn't just mean key buys, I meant board group buys as well.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 01 August 2013, 21:05:10
Is there a reason there aren't more group buys? I know there's enough people interested, and most people have issue with the price, which group buys would help alleviate.

And hopefully there comes more keycap options in the near future. I just don't think it's spread far enough yet.

Also, I've got in contact with one of our Korean members, in an attept to find information on any upcoming conventions, but he's saying there aren't as many as we might think. There might be some small gatherings, however.

I also talked to one of our Korean augmentations to the us army, and ended up having to spend 20 minutes trying to describe what a convention is. He decided he could take me to an electronic's store, and I gave up.

Nobody makes topre keys (like SP makes mx) to do group buys with.

Actually CC is probably the best known Topre custom key maker :)
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 01 August 2013, 21:15:31
Well, they have to be manufactured someplace. And I didn't just mean key buys, I meant board group buys as well.

Last topre group buy got a little ugly.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Thu, 01 August 2013, 21:52:12
Well, they have to be manufactured someplace. And I didn't just mean key buys, I meant board group buys as well.

Last topre group buy got a little ugly.


Now you're piqued my interest.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 01 August 2013, 22:10:00
Well, they have to be manufactured someplace. And I didn't just mean key buys, I meant board group buys as well.

Last topre group buy got a little ugly.
Now you're piqued my interest.



Why was it ugly?

I've been told that Topre owns all the molds and won't give up the designs so the caps can't be made by anyone else.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Thu, 01 August 2013, 22:16:25
Ah. That would prove a problem. Well, I don't know how HHKB does it, but maybe we could do a composed group buy? Are there any blank Topre keys out there, made by someone with permissions? And if so, buy a certain amount of them, and have them sent to WASD for some laser etching?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 01 August 2013, 22:18:53
Ah. That would prove a problem. Well, I don't know how HHKB does it, but maybe we could do a composed group buy? Are there any blank Topre keys out there, made by someone with permissions? And if so, buy a certain amount of them, and have them sent to WASD for some laser etching?

They buy caps from Topre. I was told all the manufacturer of Topre boards have to buy from them. Topre won't let anyone do GBs apparently and EliteKeyboards said that the colors that Topre have aren't great.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CalmB4tehPwn on Thu, 01 August 2013, 23:41:07
Topre doesn't do GBs directly from them, but they don't have any say who their suppliers sell to. If we can get HHKB to buy some black, or just white keycaps, we could do up some designs for laser etching.

It's not a great solution, no pretty colors, but we get some customization going on.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: CPTBadAss on Fri, 02 August 2013, 07:19:18
Topre doesn't do GBs directly from them, but they don't have any say who their suppliers sell to. If we can get HHKB to buy some black, or just white keycaps, we could do up some designs for laser etching.

Are you sure? If that's the case why hasn't anyone else done this? Isn't that the reason why only EliteKeyboards has Topre boards for sale in the US? Because they have a say about who gets to sell their products and what they get to sell?
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: Se7en on Fri, 02 August 2013, 09:57:46
Is there a reason there aren't more group buys?

Here is the thread with the attempted Topre keycaps group buy that comes to mind:

[IC] Topre "Red Alert" Keycaps [Red Print on White Caps] (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=28054.0)

If I remember correctly it does not specifically say why it failed, I guess you could PM 002 and ask him.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Thu, 22 August 2013, 03:27:53
I wish Vortex/KBC would look into this, they did a great job with all the PBT MX caps!
A Topre spacebar made of PBT instead of ABS would be nice for the start... :3
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: terran5992 on Thu, 22 August 2013, 07:59:52
A custom mould for the topre keys will be very expensive . Ive read some where that its 1000's of dollars.
Title: Re: Topre. Insights?
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Fri, 23 August 2013, 04:52:51
I guess our Chinese friends would have the resources to do Topre caps...
Look at all the molds they did for MX caps, ABS/POM/PBT in OEM profile, Cherry profile, and now even PBT doubleshots.