geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: digi on Fri, 09 August 2013, 17:43:38
-
I want to try vintage blacks. I tried regular blacks a few years back and hated them.
Looking for input from those who have tried both vintage and newer blacks. Any special spring configuration? What are are your thoughts?
-
I'm honestly not convinced that there's a "vintage" black switch. I still believe that "vintage" switches have just been used for years and years, maybe even decades, and the stems are just worn from use. I would really like to see someone post some real evidence versus just hearsay, not that I don't trust Ivan (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=46564.msg985283#msg985283). See my mini-discussion on my thoughts here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40501.msg990559#msg990559).
This usage leads to the switches feeling "smoother". I have vintage blacks waiting to be put into a board and 65g stock blacks. I need to do a head-to-head comparison.
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
Well said! But vintage keyboards aren't truly the best unless they go with vintage PC's running Microsoft Windows or MS-DOS!
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
Well said! But vintage keyboards aren't truly the best unless they go with vintage PC's running Microsoft Windows or MS-DOS!
Just make sure you keep your autoexec.bat and config.sys in order sir :)
-
I just installed "vintage blacks into my poker. They are IMO, just as smooth as some reds I installed in my franken-Dolch......
...but hey, that's just like.... my opinion man,......
-
I'm a fan just because they feel way smoother to me. Of course, I could be crazy and just imagining things. Who knows?
/me shrugs
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
Well said! But vintage keyboards aren't truly the best unless they go with vintage PC's running Microsoft Windows or MS-DOS!
Just make sure you keep your autoexec.bat and config.sys in order sir :)
It's always fun getting to edit config.sys in the MS-DOS editor when Windows 3.1 won't start, isn't it?
-
I have some vintage blacks from a WYSE board that was practically brand new. They're still way smoother than any modern black keyboard that I've tried. Even modern blacks that have seen heavy use aren't as smooth as my unworn vintage blacks.
Think about it, if vintage blacks were only smooth because of wear, a third of the switches taken off a vintage board (like the function keys) would be scratchy from non-use. That's never the case. They ALL smooooooth.
EDIT: Regarding springs, they seem to be different between modern and vintage, but I personally can't tell the difference in weight in normal typing.
-
whats an easier-to-get ebay board that might have vintage blacks so my fingers can evaluate? :o
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
Well said! But vintage keyboards aren't truly the best unless they go with vintage PC's running Microsoft Windows or MS-DOS!
Just make sure you keep your autoexec.bat and config.sys in order sir :)
It's always fun getting to edit config.sys in the MS-DOS editor when Windows 3.1 won't start, isn't it?
DOS Shell 5.0 was the business! Who needs Windows when you can DESQview? :P
-
I can't run Microsoft Bob without Windows though! And yes, I do have a real live copy of Microsoft Bob running on a computer.
-
I love vintage Blacks. They are in my top 3 of favorite switches from the ones I've tried so far. The smoothness is wonderful.
-
I've got a G80-2100 which I believe has vintage blacks, and it feels awesome. I've never tried a modern black switch, however.
-
god CPT why are you so new...
-
I have an old Link terminal keyboard with MX blacks - it was (and is) so nice and smooth to type on. So I got a QRF with (modern) MX blacks, and it feels gritty in comparison.
I acquired the terminal second-hand, so I have no idea how much use it got in its previous life, but given its age I would think it has vintage blacks on it, although the few keycaps I popped to check seemed to indicate that it had modern blacks. Weird.
-
I have an old Link terminal keyboard with MX blacks - it was (and is) so nice and smooth to type on. So I got a QRF with (modern) MX blacks, and it feels gritty in comparison.
I acquired the terminal second-hand, so I have no idea how much use it got in its previous life, but given its age I would think it has vintage blacks on it, although the few keycaps I popped to check seemed to indicate that it had modern blacks. Weird.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38921.msg757051
-
Think about it, if vintage blacks were only smooth because of wear, a third of the switches taken off a vintage board (like the function keys) would be scratchy from non-use. That's never the case. They ALL smooooooth.
Blacks are scratchy? I've never felt that when testing a board with Blacks. Still not buying the argument.
god CPT why are you so new...
It's just how like gold springs feel completely different from the normal silver springs right? -_-
-
Have you not experienced scratchy MX switches? My first board with brand new modern blacks was very scratchy; I've posted about it many times. Same with my first board with Browns. But my brand new Ducky with Browns started out with smooth switches.
-
Nope. I mostly use clicky switches so it's just part of the experience. I've felt gritty switches, like Browns, but I've never felt linears to be scratchy or gritty.
Just because you post about it doesn't mean I feel what you feel. I misread what you meant. Sorry.
By gritty, I mean it literally felt like someone threw something inside the switch. When people say scratchy, to me that means that you can feel the stem rubbing against something and I've still not felt that in linear switches.
-
I would really like to see someone post some real evidence versus just hearsay
Just because you post about it doesn't mean I feel what you feel.
What exactly are you expecting someone to post that you would consider "real evidence" then? There's not like scratchi-meter out there to measure how smooth or gritty something is. There's just the experiences of everyone in this thread saying the vintage blacks they have are smoother than normal ones.
I think you should stop spreading misinformation that vintage is only smooth from heavy use until you've tried some gritty modern blacks and vintage blacks side by side. Cause right now, you've go no "evidence" (and not even your own experience) to prove that worn modern blacks can be smoother than unworn vintage blacks.
But if you're just tolling, then you've got me. Continue on.
-
I'm not trolling at all. I just want there to be a post or an article telling me that the stems have changed or something. I just don't understand where this vintage thing came from. It doesn't even seem like we can agree one what dates constitute vintage.
I think you should stop spreading misinformation that vintage is only smooth from heavy use until you've tried some gritty modern blacks and vintage blacks side by side. Cause right now, you've go no "evidence" (and not even your own experience) to prove that worn modern blacks can be smoother than unworn vintage blacks.
That's fair. I'll get my chance to try this out at Keycon so I'll tone it down.
Also I misread Photoelectric's post and I'm sorry.
-
I think part of the reason why there's no specific date is because it's hard to visually identify switches would feel vintage after cherry changed the logo. Cherry continued to make smooth feeling switches for a while after switching to the new logo, so there's a gray area.
There's also the fact the manufactures could have continued to use older batches of switches in their boards even after cherry started producing modern ones. I remember seeing WYSE boards have both vintage and modern logos in one board.
From what I've read, this seems to be the progression of vintage to modern (dates are estimates):
vintage smooth with old logo (up to the mid 80s)
vintage smooth with new logo (up early 90s)
modern less smooth with new logo
modern gritty with new logo (within the last year)
-
That's all I wanted, just some info. So thank you.
I'm going to run my own experiment later today and I'll be trying boards at Keycon so I'm sure I'll have a better opinion afterwards. Apologize if I came off as aggressive, that was not my intention.
-
I don't have any solid proof--just what I've read here in terms of experiences and photographs of different logos. In my personal experience, vintage Blacks are very smooth (unless used and have dirt inside, then you clean them out, and they are smooth again). The only brand new Blacks I've used happened to be very scratchy, so I can't call it a good sampling of new Black switches. By scratchy and gritty I mean like you could feel scratchy resistance and you could hear the scratchy sound. Same with Brown switches, which are tactile, and I've tried like 10 or more different keyboards with Browns by now between me and my acquaintance, so I can tell the difference really well.
Now, switches do smooth out with use. But if you look at completely brand new or barely used keyboards, there can still be a variation among modern batches. So far, I have experienced VERY scratchy browns on 2 different CM Storm Triggers (one was mine, the other was from my acquaintance). I got mine brand new, and his was barely used as well. When I was trying out my acquaintance's keyboards, after my Trigger, that's when it hit me how dramatic the difference in feel between different Browns was. When my Ducky came (brand new), those Browns started out very smooth right away. I got a used Filco with Browns from someone, and that one was quite worn in after a couple years of use, and the switches were buttery smooth. My pink Filco was barely used and had pretty smooth Browns right away (not quite as buttery smooth as a well used one, but nice still).
MX Clears--a different switch. I got a sample of 4 used Clears from a kind member here and tried them with different springs, when I was deciding on my future keyboard mod. I then got 85 brand new Clears, and I could tell the difference immediately. That scratchy feeling and sound were there, but not as prominently as on my very scratchy Blacks and Browns. That feeling DID NOT go away after proper lubrication. It was diminished, but the switches are still not as smooth and quiet as the used Clears I got. Also have Clears now in a lightly-used Ducky Shine keyboard I got for my OH, and those are pretty smooth, not that much friction (unlubricated).
So in summary of my personal conclusions, here are some of the likely possibilities:
* Switches have different degrees of smoothness straight from a factory. So batch-to-batch variation.
* Switches smooth out with regular use (understandably)
* You can help the smoothness by lubricating the stems--but only to some degree. Mechanical wear is still very important.
* vintage Blacks I've tried are almost all very smooth, some super smooth--before any lubrication. It could be from repeated use or it could be those "smooth" batches; perhaps a difference in plastic composition or tooling.
-
I don't doubt anyone on the scratchy thing but I must not be sensitive enough to feel it.
-
Unlubed vintage blacks are smoother than unlubed modern blacks. Lubed modern blacks are just as smooth as lubed vintage blacks though. If you want the whole shebang you can buy my kmac mini (lubed vintage blacks, stickered, and 62g springs).
-
I have an old Link terminal keyboard with MX blacks - it was (and is) so nice and smooth to type on. So I got a QRF with (modern) MX blacks, and it feels gritty in comparison.
I acquired the terminal second-hand, so I have no idea how much use it got in its previous life, but given its age I would think it has vintage blacks on it, although the few keycaps I popped to check seemed to indicate that it had modern blacks. Weird.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=38921.msg757051
Hadn't seen that thread, but I have read a few others about vintage black identification, and according to most of the info mine are not vintage, although they pre-date many other that I have seen.
When I have more time I might pull a few more keycaps off and see what the other switches are (I only checked a few).
The Link keyboard is definitely a lot smoother than my QFR, and the QFR definitely feels scratchy, even compared to reds. But I don't know how much use the Link keyboard had in its previous life - perhaps it was mercilessly bashed for years before I got it, and has smoothed out as a consequence.
-
I'm honestly not convinced that there's a "vintage" black switch. I still believe that "vintage" switches have just been used for years and years, maybe even decades, and the stems are just worn from use.
Even on the keys no-one uses -- like Prt Sc, Scroll Lock and Pause?
I won't try convincing you. For anyone who has tried vintage and modern blacks, the difference between "buttery-smooth" and "paper-brushing-against-paper" is so distinctive... it's like night and day.
-
Vintage switches are the best. Don't **** with the rest.
Well said! But vintage keyboards aren't truly the best unless they go with vintage PC's running Microsoft Windows or MS-DOS!
I reinstalled Windows 95 a year ago to see if I could do anything, couldn't even get the internet to work until writing a .BAT.
Only useful for Oregon Trail
-
The linear switch can get more smoother?
-
I have used both modern blacks and vintage blacks. The vintage are smoother, linear MX switches are my favorite in red and blacks. I have had many linear switch keyboards and I believe the vintage are the smoothest. The term "smooth as butter" is an accurate description. (but not as smooth as Topre butter)
-
We need to find out how to make our blacks smoother!!
-
We need to find out how to make our blacks smoother!!
Lots of typing :)
-
Maybe a special "breaking in lube" :P
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Too much #swag, they aren't smooth enough.
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Old blacks are smooth and just go with the flow. These modern blacks have a resistance! They're stronger and nobody likes them as much because of it.
-
Is there a such thing as vintage clears?
I know 'whites' used to be 'clear' that's not what I'm referring to.
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Too much #swag, they aren't smooth enough.
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Old blacks are smooth and just go with the flow. These modern blacks have a resistance! They're stronger and nobody likes them as much because of it.
So you admit to being pro-slavery?
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Too much #swag, they aren't smooth enough.
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Old blacks are smooth and just go with the flow. These modern blacks have a resistance! They're stronger and nobody likes them as much because of it.
So you admit to being pro-slavery?
No, I'm saying vintage MJ is smooter than lil wayne.
-
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Too much #swag, they aren't smooth enough.
Why do you all hate modern Blacks? You're always trying to keep them down. Racists!
Old blacks are smooth and just go with the flow. These modern blacks have a resistance! They're stronger and nobody likes them as much because of it.
So you admit to being pro-slavery?
We are all slaves to the man!
[attachimg=1]
-
Yeah there are vintage clears. They're the ****.
-
Yeah there are vintage clears. They're the ****.
Any pics anywhere?? Just curious if there is a visual difference.
Although I suppose I could just break out my new clears and see what they look like.....oh wait....I'm still waiting to get those back :(
-
I'm still waiting to get those back :(
I misread that the first time because we were talking about vintage blacks. I am a horrible person.
-
In my experience, stock modern browns are scratchy at first but I found after a few months of using the board on the daily, the switches smooth out considerably, leaving you with a much more enjoyable typing experience.
One can only imagine this could work for linear switches, as well. 4 months tops, and the scratchiness goes away (I type quite a bit, though.)
In the worst case, people can lube their switches if they really think there's unnecessary friction.
TBH the QFR browns in front of me, if it were any smoother, would feel linear when typing.
Last but not least, when Steelseries came out with the 6Gv2 I bought one from Fry's, and thought it was pretty smooth - hella springy if anything. Yall be trippin thinking "modern blacks" are "too scratchy"
-
Keyword is "different batches." Yes, some modern Browns are smooth straight from the factory and some are not. Same goes for Modern MX Black.
-
So with all this talk of vintage Blacks and The Beast's tool finally coming in the mail today, I've swapped ergo-Clears out of my Filco to 62g fully lubed (Krytox mix) vintage Blacks. Mmmm heaven. I've learned that keycap profile / material and plate / case have a huge effect on how switches feel. While I love stock Clears in my OH's Ducky Shine, I strongly dislike ergo-Clears on my Filco with Cherry-profile thick PBT caps, and heavier springs didn't really improve them by much. But lighter Blacks are perfect for these hard low profile caps + very thin silicone o-rings. Anyway, another round props for the smooth linear goodness.