the rubber cup makes smooths out the spring action. bottoming out is also muted compared to any Cherry MX.
In my opinion you need to re-learn how to type with a Topre. Especially if you come from membrane keyboards and you're new to mechanical. With membrane keyboards you're used to depressing them all the way and hard. You don't have to do this with Topre. The switch takes hardly any pressure to activate, and it takes some practice to keep from bottoming out the caps. This is based on my experiences with the topre RF 87U 55g. It's quickly becoming my favorite keyboard. I'm forcing myself to use lighter touch to activate the switches. I'm used to hammering the keyboards with so much force. Even with the brown MX I bottom out the keys. That is the only way I can really type fast it seems.
The price. The more you spend, the better the typing.
In my opinion you need to re-learn how to type with a Topre. Especially if you come from membrane keyboards and you're new to mechanical. With membrane keyboards you're used to depressing them all the way and hard. You don't have to do this with Topre. The switch takes hardly any pressure to activate, and it takes some practice to keep from bottoming out the caps. This is based on my experiences with the topre RF 87U 55g. It's quickly becoming my favorite keyboard. I'm forcing myself to use lighter touch to activate the switches. I'm used to hammering the keyboards with so much force. Even with the brown MX I bottom out the keys. That is the only way I can really type fast it seems.
Generally, people seem to agree the Cherry Blues and buckling springs are great for typing since they're tactile and clicky..
What makes Topre so great for typing since they are neither?
a decent MX board
KeyCool
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid.
If only they come out in ergonomic design.... split, columnar...
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid.Show Image(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/589/320/96f.png)
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
EDIT: And I almost forgot about the newer Leopold Topre boards (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=leopold,compact&pid=fc660c), which have PBT, plate and 45g weighted switches for $189, which makes it an even more invalid argument.
This is a valid point.... somewhat
Some people are happy with there stock $60 QFR and never upgrade past that. So to them, it's very expensive. To the average GH user with a +$300 custom poker, your point is very valid
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
Since when did PBT sets cost $80?
And what if you don't want new springs/lube/ect?
Or what if you do if yourself?
By the way, the BWU is a niche product. It's targeted at pro-gamers. If you say it's a bad board, then your argument is invalid.
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
Since when did PBT sets cost $80?
And what if you don't want new springs/lube/ect?
Or what if you do if yourself?
By the way, the BWU is a niche product. It's targeted at pro-gamers. If you say it's a bad board, then your argument is invalid.
Can't tell if serious, or....
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.
I am talking about getting a similar experience out of the box. Which isn't going to happen with a budget MX board. You would need to do all
of the above to get a similar experience to a topre board, which was my point...
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
BWU is a bad board, sorry, but that's my opinion on that matter. Then again, I have tried just about all cherry switches 'tuned' or not, and prefer topre.
qtan will sell you a full set for ~45
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
Since when did PBT sets cost $80?
And what if you don't want new springs/lube/ect?
Or what if you do if yourself?
By the way, the BWU is a niche product. It's targeted at pro-gamers. If you say it's a bad board, then your argument is invalid.
Can't tell if serious, or....
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.
I am talking about getting a similar experience out of the box. Which isn't going to happen with a budget MX board. You would need to do all
of the above to get a similar experience to a topre board, which was my point...
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
BWU is a bad board, sorry, but that's my opinion on that matter. Then again, I have tried just about all cherry switches 'tuned' or not, and prefer topre.
qtan will sell you a full set for ~45
I'm not sure if you are trolling or serious...
I would never code on an HHKB. I don't know why they think that coders will love them. When I code, I need easy access to arrow keys, insert, home and end, ect,.
Not some wierd function layer.
qtan will sell you a full set for ~45
For thick Imsto PBT caps? Link Please.
I would never code on an HHKB. I don't know why they think that coders will love them. When I code, I need easy access to arrow keys, insert, home and end, ect,.
Not some wierd function layer.
Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.
Of blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no.
Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
Quote from: Bro CapsAnyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.
I can buy whole keyboard with thick PBT caps for that, lol.Quote from: Bro CapsOf blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no.
Who needs lettering anyway?Quote from: Bro CapsBecause you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.
Topre ErgoDox has been released? I haven't noticed.Quote from: Bro CapsEven if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
Except enthusiasts do these mods deliberately in their free time, because they're enthusiasts after all, right? I don't think non-enthusiasts care about details such as smoothness of the switch that much.
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
This bothers me. I don't think it's a good or healthy idea to quantify everything in terms of money. Money is a tool, a necessary one for existing in today's society, but it's still just a means to an end. When I put together my ErgoDox, I didn't care how much it "cost" me. In terms of what I make, the labor alone to put that thing together would've been several hundred dollars. What was more important to me was the experience, and knowing that I'd be using a board that I built. Which is worth more to me than any amount of money.
That's why we do these mods and get these boards and obsess over them. Not because how much they cost, or how much they're worth, or whatever, but because we love them. We get something more from them than any amount of money could provide.
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
But this still brings us back to my original point of - topre being better out of the box. And the necessity of having to modify MX switches to get a similar typing experience.
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
I don't entirely think that's fair. Of course his time is valuable, to him. But what he gets from the activities he chooses to spend his time on is unique to him. You may think that spending time customizing a board is a waste of time, and because of that opt for a more complete "out of box" experience. But he probably gets a ton of enrichment/fulfillment from doing just that, and to him that's time well spent.
PS: Still <3 you Bro ;)
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.
Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.
And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.
Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.
First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.
Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.
...and the point is?
layout > switchesAnd ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.
You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.
Some of the Happy Hacking Keyboard design tenets, as dictated by Wada, include a minimal 60 key design, no cursor or function keys, and standard keyboard pitch, all optimized for use in UNIX environments.
Happy Hacking Keyboards lack a numeric keypad, and keys outside the typewriter key area are mainly accessible through the Fn key. The keys are arranged in a layout resembling the Sun Type 3 keyboard (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Hacking_Keyboard)
I actually agree with you on pretty much all points. One of the main reasons I got rid of my HHKB is the lack of arrows. I currently support my family by coding in visual studio full time, so I need arrows.
To me, the FC660C is a vastly superior keyboard. A small form factor, dedicated arrow keys, intuitive fn layer, Pbt caps on 45g plate mounted Topres, less than $200. The only thing the HHKB has on it is dye sub, but in practice that doesn't really matter.
I'm trying hard to purchase a FC660C, but now EK does not answer my emails anymore. I live in a country that is not is their list, but the first exchange we had was positive as they told me that it was possible for them to ship my order here.
Since this first email, I cannot get in touch with them anymore. I know they have just received a batch of FC660C and I don't want to miss it.
Surprise surprise, a Topre thread has resulted in bickering.
The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.
The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.
If only they come out in ergonomic design.... split, columnar...
μTRON
Oh, and don't use thick pbt prices. I don't even know where that idea came from. Topre is not thick pbt (and the space isn't pbt at all), thin pbt is a much closer comparison. And the cheaper topres (anything other than realforce or hhkb, probably utron too but I'm not actually sure) have terrible lasered caps anyway. Comparing one of the cheaper topre board caps to imsto is like comparing BWU stock caps to Cherry doubleshots because they're both abs.
Your argument about topre being overpriced is invalid. Here is why:
You're going to spend roughly 80-100 (maybe more) for a decent MX board. Typically, that board is not going to have PBT caps.
You will spend another maybe 80 or so on some PBT caps, depending on what type and what vendor, etc. Maybe you want
to add some springs, stickers, lube, etc. You're probably going to need someone to do that for you. So you pay to ship your stuff
to someone, do the work, ship back to you, etc.. etc... (maybe you get the point by now....)
That's going to start getting you into the range of your 45g EK RealForce (http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=topre_keyboards,rftenkeyless&pid=rf_se19e0), which already
comes stock with high quality PBT caps, doesn't make half the noise and is much smoother than your stock MX board. (Right now, it's about $240). A topre is just a smoother experience out
of the box. That's not personal preference, etc. They just are.
So please, stop using the price of a topre board as your argument against Topre, because it's pretty silly. If you want to use the HHKB as the point of your argument, that's understandable as
it's a niche product, with specific target audiences in mind (programmers). So your argument is still invalid on that point, as well.
Since when did PBT sets cost $80?
And what if you don't want new springs/lube/ect?
Or what if you do if yourself?
By the way, the BWU is a niche product. It's targeted at pro-gamers. If you say it's a bad board, then your argument is invalid.
Can't tell if serious, or....
Anyways, a new set of thick PBT from imsto, lettered, is about 75 + shipping from China.
I am talking about getting a similar experience out of the box. Which isn't going to happen with a budget MX board. You would need to do all
of the above to get a similar experience to a topre board, which was my point...
Even if you do it yourself, the time investment should be worth something to you, unless you have ample time of nothing to do.
BWU is a bad board, sorry, but that's my opinion on that matter. Then again, I have tried just about all cherry switches 'tuned' or not, and prefer topre.
qtan will sell you a full set for ~45
I'm not sure if you are trolling or serious...
I would never code on an HHKB. I don't know why they think that coders will love them. When I code, I need easy access to arrow keys, insert, home and end, ect,.
Not some wierd function layer.
Of blanks or lettered? Blanks yes, lettered no. I said thick imsto, which are typically higher quality and thicker. Not sure what qtan is selling. But I used that
as a general example of what a lot of people here use.
Because you can't adapt to a superior layout, doesn't mean everyone feels that way. And the Fn layer becomes natural once you get used to it.
I don't even think about it, like when shifting in a manual transmission car... you just do it.
Lettered. Look it up.
Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?
What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?
Lettered. Look it up.
Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?
What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?
1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/105-PBT-Blue-White-key-caps-ANY-MX-cherry-switches-dye-sub-printed-/290920986177?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43bc3df641). Nice try.
2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed
3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.
Lettered. Look it up.
Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?
What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?
1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/105-PBT-Blue-White-key-caps-ANY-MX-cherry-switches-dye-sub-printed-/290920986177?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43bc3df641). Nice try.
2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed
3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.
Ahh my mistake. What's "stock topre PBT"? Is that like stock MX ABS? For the record, the F660C isn't dysub.
lol my HHKB is cheap compared to all the money and time i have spent on my ergodoxes, my poker, etc. I think if you want to join into the premium keyboard club, Topre boards are probably the cheapest way to join the club.
I will say though, I do not regret putting in the time i have spent into my Cherry boards :D
lol my HHKB is cheap compared to all the money and time i have spent on my ergodoxes, my poker, etc. I think if you want to join into the premium keyboard club, Topre boards are probably the cheapest way to join the club.
I will say though, I do not regret putting in the time i have spent into my Cherry boards :D
Lettered. Look it up.
Do all topre boards come with thick IMSTO?
What makes the HHKB layout superior? It's smaller?
1. His $43 PBT caps are printed, not dye subbed like stock topre PBT. His dye subbed PBT are 91.99 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/105-PBT-Blue-White-key-caps-ANY-MX-cherry-switches-dye-sub-printed-/290920986177?pt=PCA_Mice_Trackballs&hash=item43bc3df641). Nice try.
2. No, they don't come with thick imsto, they come with thicker than regular PBT. Not all PBT caps are equal in quality or feel.
Most budget boards that have pbt, are usually thinner and not dye subbed
3. For me, yes. I prefer a compact layout, no windows key and a backspace that I don't have to stretch for.
Ahh my mistake. What's "stock topre PBT"? Is that like stock MX ABS? For the record, the F660C isn't dysub.
Stock meaning, what comes with the board from the factory. And yes, I am aware the Leopold isn't dye subbed. Hence the price difference.
So when you take all of that into account, this brings us full circle back to my original point about peoples complaints about the price of topre boards being too expensive, invalid.
Show Image(http://i.qkme.me/3vl11k.jpg)
Show Image(http://i.qkme.me/3vl11k.jpg)
Really dude? That's the best you can come up with? I guess providing facts for you wasn't enough. Troll.
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.
I would really like to see a poll on this. But we can't do it because we can't be sure that only programmers will answer.
I have been a programmer since 1979. I started on a TRS-80. It already had arrow keys. Four of them.
Since then, I have never programmed on any keyboard that did not have the arrow keys.
I do love the look of the HHKB and I could afford to purchase one, but I don't want it because it lacks the four most important keys that I use all the time. I would be typing on an HHKB right now if only it had these keys!
Some programmers may not need the arrows. But if you design a keyboard for programmers, you'd better not forget the arrows.
The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.
I think it would be closer to the truth to say that it has been designed to be "pure" and to appeal to a targeted audience. To programmers in general? Definitely not. If that's what they wanted they really screwed it up massively. How many programmers did they get by not including the arrows? A handful of "old school"? Maybe. How many programmers are they missing by not having them? Several hundreds of thousands. You know, the guys who make money coding for Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS, even Linux, using Eclipse, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Xcode, KDevelop and many others IDEs and who never had to use a two-keys combination to move a cursor around.
To be honest, to me the HHKB looks more like a device targeted at non-technical users. Maybe writers, journalists, people who type a lot of text and grab the mouse to move the cursor. It's hard to believe that technically savvy users would easily accept the lack of these important keys. I have actually read a few times about people who purchased the HHKB thinking that they could do without the arrows and who realized later that it was a deal breaker. Holding the Fn key down all day will definitely hurt your pinky. :)
UPDATE: See what eadams has just posted (a few minutes ago) in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0)
And pretty much everybody codes just like you, right? I know plenty of developers who never even need to touch any of those keys. The HHKB is targeted toward the *nix crowd, the hardcore "old school" programmers who use vi/emacs/bash in the days before arrow keys existed on keyboards.
I would really like to see a poll on this. But we can't do it because we can't be sure that only programmers will answer.
I have been a programmer since 1979. I started on a TRS-80. It already had arrow keys. Four of them.
Since then, I have never programmed on any keyboard that did not have the arrow keys.
I do love the look of the HHKB and I could afford to purchase one, but I don't want it because it lacks the four most important keys that I use all the time. I would be typing on an HHKB right now if only it had these keys!
Some programmers may not need the arrows. But if you design a keyboard for programmers, you'd better not forget the arrows.
The HHKB has not been designed for programmers. For some of them, maybe, but a minority.
I think it would be closer to the truth to say that it has been designed to be "pure" and to appeal to a targeted audience. To programmers in general? Definitely not. If that's what they wanted they really screwed it up massively. How many programmers did they get by not including the arrows? A handful of "old school"? Maybe. How many programmers are they missing by not having them? Several hundreds of thousands. You know, the guys who make money coding for Windows, MacOS, Android or iOS, even Linux, using Eclipse, Visual Studio, MonoDevelop, Xcode, KDevelop and many others IDEs and who never had to use a two-keys combination to move a cursor around.
To be honest, to me the HHKB looks more like a device targeted at non-technical users. Maybe writers, journalists, people who type a lot of text and grab the mouse to move the cursor. It's hard to believe that technically savvy users would easily accept the lack of these important keys. I have actually read a few times about people who purchased the HHKB thinking that they could do without the arrows and who realized later that it was a deal breaker. Holding the Fn key down all day will definitely hurt your pinky. :)
UPDATE: See what eadams has just posted (a few minutes ago) in this thread:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=47466.0)
Well the HHKB Pro 2 does have the four arrow keys, they just require you to press the Fn key to use them. It seems cumbersome if you've never tried it, but it's actually better than the arrow cluster since your right hand doesn't move around as much. You learn to do the arrows with your right hand, and it never leaves the alpha keys. IMO, the best keyboard in the world is the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S with blank keycaps. There is a learning curve, for sure. It took me about two or three weeks to adapt to it, but now I type much better and much faster. I am not a programmer, but I type a lot, and I use the arrow keys a lot as well. I have found the FN layer arrow keys to be great, and better than the arrow cluster on a TKL or full-size keyboard. Also the placement of the Control key and the backspace are superior as well. If you've never tried an HHKB, you really can't comment on it, or make any kind of informed decision. The only downside to the HHKB of course is the cost. At around $400 (USD) the HHKB Pro 2 Type-S is no bargain. However, it's still cheaper than a Korean Custom MX Keyboard, and feels better, even after the Korean custom keyboard has been lubed, stickered, dampened, spring swapped, and LED backlighted.
As for ergodox, I finally got to try one out at KeyCon. And it had been modified with 62g solid gold springs from Korea, lubed with Krytox, stickered, dampened, and kissed by a virgin (I added that last part). And I was totally underwhelmed. The MX keys still feel worse than Topre. The only thing ergodox has going for it, is the layout, which may or may not be helpful to somebody suffering from RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome. But the layout is of no benefit to anybody else, other than novelty. In fact, IMO a variable RealForce would actually be more comfortable to a person with RSI or CTS, than the ergodox.
Anyway, I cannot convince anybody who cannot conceive that there may be something better than a Cherry MX switch, so I won't even try. You can see the light or stumble in the darkness. You have free will. Do as you want. Just remember three things: (1) you don't know what you don't know; (2) you don't always know what you think you know; and (3) in the end all you really know is what you want to know.
ITT: People like different stuff.THIS IS NOT OK. LIKE WHAT I LIKE OR LEAVE. GOD, WHY DON'T PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THIS?
As for ergodox, I finally got to try one out at KeyCon. And it had been modified with 62g solid gold springs from Korea, lubed with Krytox, stickered, dampened, and kissed by a virgin (I added that last part). And I was totally underwhelmed. The MX keys still feel worse than Topre. The only thing ergodox has going for it, is the layout, which may or may not be helpful to somebody suffering from RSI or carpal tunnel syndrome. But the layout is of no benefit to anybody else, other than novelty.
In fact, IMO a variable RealForce would actually be more comfortable to a person with RSI or CTS, than the ergodox.
Anyway, I cannot convince anybody who cannot conceive that there may be something better than a Cherry MX switch, so I won't even try. You can see the light or stumble in the darkness. You have free will. Do as you want. Just remember three things: (1) you don't know what you don't know; (2) you don't always know what you think you know; and (3) in the end all you really know is what you want to know.
Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:
1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars. Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect. I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it." NO. Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.
Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.
1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.
Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.
2. Great for you. Most people might not.
Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.
First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.
Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.
3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.
Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.
...and the point is?
layout > switches
4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.
And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.
You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?
5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....
what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.
Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.
1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.
Reading comprehention failure.Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.
2. Great for you. Most people might not.
Reading comprehention failure.Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.
First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.
Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.
3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.
First, quite a few vendors sell keyboards with dampeners out of the box.
Second, you've provided how much data? None.Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.
...and the point is?
layout > switches
4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.
switch != keyboard
Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.
You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?
5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....
Stock realforce costs about Ł200 from The Keyboard Company. TECK is in the same price range from the same vendor, and so is ErgoDox including assembly via Massdrop.what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.
Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.
Yes, you can buy a budget board with $75.
Budget board with thick PBT/POM keycaps.
1. Still a stock MX switch budget board.
Reading comprehention failure.Again - is your time valuable? Maybe it isn't, but mine is (contradicting myself here by responding to this). I'd rather have a better experience out of the box.
Irrelevant. Maybe I enjoy modding keyboards.
2. Great for you. Most people might not.
Reading comprehention failure.Who needs lettering? Not me, but a lot do.
First, it's not like lettering on dark Topre keycaps except FC660C is exactly easy to read.
Second, are those hunt'n'peckers the same people who care about differences among switches? I'm not talking about awful RD versus MX Red versus BS, but say dampened browns versus topres.
3. Still personal preference. And I am still referring to out of the box. Out of the box topre is still a smoother typing experience out of the box. You don't have to 'dampen' it.
First, quite a few vendors sell keyboards with dampeners out of the box.
Second, you've provided how much data? None.Ergo Dox still uses MX switches.
...and the point is?
layout > switches
4. No, layout is not more important than switches. Layout is still a preference. Typing feel (switches) is the primary factor when deciding on a switch. People that are used
to your typical keyboard layout probably won't care about an ergo dox if they are happy with the current setup they are using.
switch != keyboard
Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.And ergo dox is not an out of the box, retail keyboard which is, again, what we are talking about here.
You can have it assembled. Or what about Kinesis Advantage? TECK? ...?
5. Yeah, you can have an ergo dox assembled. So guess what the price of an ergo dox + assembly equates to? More than a stock topre. Did you miss the main point again? I think so....
Stock realforce costs about Ł200 from The Keyboard Company. TECK is in the same price range from the same vendor, and so is ErgoDox including assembly via Massdrop.what I see in this thread. people who have used both either say they prefer topre or that both are good and it depends on your taste, or people who have never used topre getting mad and bashing a keyboard switch they have never used.
Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.
switch != keyboard
Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.
Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.
switch != keyboard
Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.
I don't think you've provided any data either...not that I really care either way. And talking about high end ergonomic keyboards preferring Cherry MX...they really don't have a choice as far as choosing Topre or not so using that as a data point is probably not a good one. We don't know what people would prefer (Topre vs. MX) in an ergo keyboard because one of those options does not exist...and I'm sure you know that already..Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.
I'm sure he could search for them but asking someone to run around looking for something like that is a waste of time...I'll confirm I've seen people say this on here...a number of people have talked about Topre being just rubber dome only to admit they haven't used them...there are also plenty of people that bash Topre after having touched it for a matter of minutes (or hours) which you have mentioned and yet you seem to think these opinions are valid (based on your previous comments) and think Topre people are just making it up that you really do need to give it more time than that. Why do they say that? I'd probably guess that a good number of Topre users at first were a bit underwhelmed by it at first..MYSELF included. Then after using it for awhile and going back and forth to your Alps or Cherry, etc...a lot of people will start to really appreciate a Topre....and many WILL NOT. Either way, because it has taken people some time to appreciate it and had identical reactions to the people judging it for a few minutes/hours, they of course feel like those people haven't given it enough time..and they're probably right. It is probably very much like an Ergodox...Plenty of people won't like or be used to the layout for quite awhile..and if they don't really give it enough time they may never hit that point where they appreciate it or where they've actually given it a real fair chance and decided it isn't for them.
But really it is all irrelevant...some people like Topre..some don't..whatever you like is your own personal preference.
There used to be an argument about the high cost made people like their Topre because they had to justify that...but we know this isn't true as they could have done what many have done and just sold their keyboard. We also know the cheaper new Topres (like the Leopold) have made it far more affordable for some to try and if anything, we've seen an increase in Topre activity as a result....It also doesn't make sense considering people pay just as much for their Cherry boards with everything added up (Extra set of keycaps, etc).
Also, to add my extra 2 cents in...I think Topres are great for typing....they feel great, responsive, smooth, stable and a bit tactile bump...
I think Cherry MX is far better for gaming...and they're also so much more flexible with what you can do with them.
If I only had to pick one, I'd pick Cherry..because I think they're very good for typing and great for gaming. Thankfully I don't have to pick just one so I can use Topre for work and Cherry for my gamer.
Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:
1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars. Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect. I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it." NO. Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.
http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/topics/obsessive-compulsive-disorder-ocd/index.shtml
switch != keyboard
Again, you've provided no data to backup your claim. On the other hand, market with high-end ergonomic keyboards seems to prefer Cherry MX.
I don't think you've provided any data either...not that I really care either way. And talking about high end ergonomic keyboards preferring Cherry MX...they really don't have a choice as far as choosing Topre or not so using that as a data point is probably not a good one. We don't know what people would prefer (Topre vs. MX) in an ergo keyboard because one of those options does not exist...and I'm sure you know that already..Maybe you could name the people who are bashing Topre, although they haven't used it... or it would be easier to go back to fapping.
I'm sure he could search for them but asking someone to run around looking for something like that is a waste of time...I'll confirm I've seen people say this on here...a number of people have talked about Topre being just rubber dome only to admit they haven't used them...there are also plenty of people that bash Topre after having touched it for a matter of minutes (or hours) which you have mentioned and yet you seem to think these opinions are valid (based on your previous comments) and think Topre people are just making it up that you really do need to give it more time than that. Why do they say that? I'd probably guess that a good number of Topre users at first were a bit underwhelmed by it at first..MYSELF included. Then after using it for awhile and going back and forth to your Alps or Cherry, etc...a lot of people will start to really appreciate a Topre....and many WILL NOT. Either way, because it has taken people some time to appreciate it and had identical reactions to the people judging it for a few minutes/hours, they of course feel like those people haven't given it enough time..and they're probably right. It is probably very much like an Ergodox...Plenty of people won't like or be used to the layout for quite awhile..and if they don't really give it enough time they may never hit that point where they appreciate it or where they've actually given it a real fair chance and decided it isn't for them.
But really it is all irrelevant...some people like Topre..some don't..whatever you like is your own personal preference.
There used to be an argument about the high cost made people like their Topre because they had to justify that...but we know this isn't true as they could have done what many have done and just sold their keyboard. We also know the cheaper new Topres (like the Leopold) have made it far more affordable for some to try and if anything, we've seen an increase in Topre activity as a result....It also doesn't make sense considering people pay just as much for their Cherry boards with everything added up (Extra set of keycaps, etc).
Also, to add my extra 2 cents in...I think Topres are great for typing....they feel great, responsive, smooth, stable and a bit tactile bump...
I think Cherry MX is far better for gaming...and they're also so much more flexible with what you can do with them.
If I only had to pick one, I'd pick Cherry..because I think they're very good for typing and great for gaming. Thankfully I don't have to pick just one so I can use Topre for work and Cherry for my gamer.
See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.
Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.
An example for me would be tp4tissue talking all the time about how his ergodox is the best board of all time. This immediately gave me a massive dislike for that keyboard even though I've never used one.
Topre is nice but two things bother my OCD soul:
1.) Dyesub keys but ABS spacebar? WTF?
2.) Several Topre boards I've tried had rattling noisy space bars. Granted not all have this issue; but you can't send it back to EK because they don't consider it a defect. I know this is Geekhack and the typical response will be "awww just suck it up and lube it." NO. Not on a "Made in Japan" product over $200.
please stop self diagnose OCD.
that is not OCD, that's just being picky.
I'm quite new here, but before joining GH, I was posting in a local tech forum under the Mech KB section. Also, at about the time I'd joined GH, I'd already amassed a collection of more than 10 KB's including including two with Topre switch. I'd gotten a used Topre RF 105UB-55G from a guy in the local tech forum, nice fellow, he has a number of Topre boards, I guess he didn't like the 55G uniform weight on the that board. I tried it and loved how it felt, different from Cherry switches (already had Red, Black, Brown, Blue and Green), different, but not necessarily superior.....just different. I love the heaviness of the 103UB-55G, hence my love for Cherry Black and Green, will be getting a Leopold FC660M Clear in a week or so, just to see if I am going to like Clears.
Topre has a smoother feel to it, I find myself making less errors and generally enjoying typing on it....heck, typing this post with my Topre. I was, still am, into this <TKL keyboard phase, so I'd gotten the Pro 2 as well (as well as having the FC660M on its way) and admittedly, the 45G weight throughout the keys was a tad light for me, but I do enjoy typing on my Pro 2 as well. The Pro 2 cost me almost 325USD locally, but if I were to buy it from EK, shipping cost would bring it closer to the price I'd paid, plus I lose out on the warranty.
Having typed, and gamed, on both Cherry and Topre switches, I cannot say which is superior, if at all, and as others had said, it boils down to preference. In a way, Topre can be cheaper than Cherry KB's in the long run......all these GB's and whatnot involve Cherry keyboards, very little on Topre. I'm sure most of you guys here know how financially draining it can be to hang out in the GB and Classified sections.....hence, my avoidance of these. So far, I've been sucked into the Miami GB, mentally wanking off to the Bumblebee GB......it never ends over there it seems. Some of the guys in the local forums have said that buying Topre is cheaper in the long run as you're not involved in these GB's......now, I kind of agree with what they'd said. Only snag is......I have >10 mechanical KB's with Cherry switches! :'(
See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.
Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.
^ +1. Yeah, I have to agree. OCD is a serious mental illness. You are trivializing it, and you're probably offending anybody who really suffers from it, or has a family member who suffers from it.
See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.
Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.
Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both. I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....
What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day? Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.
See... I appreciate a post like this. Because it's even-handed. He says ultimately (if he had to pick one) he prefers Cherry MX overall, over Topre, and I don't have a problem with that.
Why? Because he doesn't say things like "Topres are over-priced rip-offs!" Or "enjoy your over-priced rubber domes!" Comments like that are disingenuous, and are clearly meant to insult Topre users.
Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both. I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....
What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day? Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.
Well, I clearly state (I thought) I use both. I enjoy both and I've said several times, I prefer Topre for typing..I just think it has better feel.....but I do enjoy typing on Cherry as well....and as I said, Cherry, for me, is far better for gaming....
What it really comes down to if I had to pick one is, I don't like gaming on Topre....but which keyboard do I use more each day? Topre....Anyways, just adding data points to the discussion....It is really hard to go wrong with either...it is all about tweaking your own personal experience.
What game you playing? when was the last time you tried topre for playing? I felt the same way for a while but I tried playing again on a topre and it was much better now that I am used to the switch. I still think cherry is slightly better for gaming but its not that much better. I play SC2 and FPS games.
There are some screenshots where some pros are using Topre so obviously it can be used at a very high level of game play.
Second, I was pointing to the myth that the HHKB has been made for programmers. It's just a myth. You want to argue that there are more programmers out there that would prefer a keyboard without the arrow keys? Seriously?
Maybe I can put words on the "Topre feel":
For those of you who have once used a real piano (one made of wood) or a high quality electronic musical keyboard, there is a similarity in my opinion with the Topre switches.
In a real piano, the key is at the end of a lever, and the lever pushes a hammer, which strikes a string or group of strings.
The device has some inertia. When you start pushing the key, you push the key+lever+hammer group. You feel the weight of all these parts. Once the group is set in motion, the pressure on your finger is much lower as the parts continue on their way until they strike the string(s), at which point the hammer bounces back and sends the pressure back on the key. This helps quickly reset the mechanism in its initial position, ready to play another note.
The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.
the HHKB arrows are complete bull**** and is just linux/unix elitism (you really think windows/mac users are bad? you haven't seen anything yet).
now, if the arrow keys were 'ijkl' instead, NOW we would be talking.
better yet, have the option to turn the rshift into a FN key, and small handed users everywhere would cheer for years on end.
if i was redesigning the keyboard for myself, I'd turn the loptions key into another func key and have a second arrow block on 'esdf'(like the minila). although, i honestly can't take knocks off a keyboard not including this (the minila is a laptop users' dream)
*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro - no, the stereotypical image of an apple mac user is NOT a programmer
Maybe I can put words on the "Topre feel":
For those of you who have once used a real piano (one made of wood) or a high quality electronic musical keyboard, there is a similarity in my opinion with the Topre switches.
In a real piano, the key is at the end of a lever, and the lever pushes a hammer, which strikes a string or group of strings.
The device has some inertia. When you start pushing the key, you push the key+lever+hammer group. You feel the weight of all these parts. Once the group is set in motion, the pressure on your finger is much lower as the parts continue on their way until they strike the string(s), at which point the hammer bounces back and sends the pressure back on the key. This helps quickly reset the mechanism in its initial position, ready to play another note.
The pressure curve on a piano key is in my opinion somehow similar to the one of a Topre switch.
This is by far the best description of the "topre feel" that I've come across. I say this as someone who's played the piano my whole life. ^-^
The initial resistance, followed by the smooth travel really does closely mimic the feel of a piano key. It may be why I've come to strongly prefer topres.
In addition, the fact that the key actuates before bottoming out is also similar to a piano's action. The hammer is actually released at the strings well before the key is fully depressed. This is part of the mechanism that allows you to use a softer touch on the keys to achieve a dynamic range (different loudness) when you play.
And for those who say you always bottom out on topres, I actually find that not to be the case. True, when I'm typing English at speed, I generally do bottom out. But, when I'm typing key commands or chords, or doing fast repetition of a single key, I'll often use a lighter touch and not bottom out. I do this without thinking about it, and only notice if I pay attention to it.
now, if the arrow keys were 'ijkl' instead, NOW we would be talking.
better yet, have the option to turn the rshift into a FN key, and small handed users everywhere would cheer for years on end.
And for those who say you always bottom out on topres, I actually find that not to be the case. True, when I'm typing English at speed, I generally do bottom out. But, when I'm typing key commands or chords, or doing fast repetition of a single key, I'll often use a lighter touch and not bottom out. I do this without thinking about it, and only notice if I pay attention to it.
*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro...
And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.
And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.
No actually, he's not.
OSX is built on top of Darwin, which is built on top of NeXTSTEP and BSD. Both of which are Unix derivatives (and NeXTSTEP itself borrows heavily from BSD).
*yes, i'm completely aware OS X is built on top of a unix distro...And you are completely wrong on this one. Sorry, I had to say it.
No actually, he's not.
OSX is built on top of Darwin, which is built on top of NeXTSTEP and BSD. Both of which are Unix derivatives (and NeXTSTEP itself borrows heavily from BSD).
He is wrong. OS X is indeed built on top of Darwin, which is a BSD derivative kernel, but which has never been a Linux distro. BSD predates Linux by a decade or two, and Linux is not based on BSD either.
The link between Mac OS X (BSD) and Linux is that they are both based on a Unix-like core. Like saying that they have a common ancestor, but they are not in the same branch.
But please, Mac OS X is definitely not based on a Linux distro.