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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:30:38

Title: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:30:38
Hello =)

Finally I've received my first mechanical keyboard (Filco MJ2 TKL Brown switches) and noticed that some keys (switches) have noise like noise of spring rustling...or something...don't know how to describe it(like there is some sand inside...). Maybe somebody encountered such problem? How can it be fixed?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: mauri on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:33:12
>Brown switches

I think we're in the center of your dilemma.

E: The center is as expected, gooey.
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:35:04
Quote from: mauri on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:33:12
>Brown switches

I think we're in the center of your dilemma.

E: The center is as expected, gooey.

sorry, I don't understand...
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:41:31
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)


:( thank you for the help!
I thought that changing spring doesn't require desoldering...
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Xenderwind on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:46:04
Quote from: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:41:31
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)


:( thank you for the help!
I thought that changing spring doesn't require desoldering...
Requires removing the switch top.  If the switches are plate mounted then it isnt possible to remove them without desoldering, unless you have a custom plate already installed (which would still require you to desolder them all at least once).
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:48:38
Quote from: Xenderwind on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:46:04
Quote from: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:41:31
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)


:( thank you for the help!
I thought that changing spring doesn't require desoldering...
Requires removing the switch top.  If the switches are plate mounted then it isnt possible to remove them without desoldering, unless you have a custom plate already installed (which would still require you to desolder them all at least once).


On the Quickfire Rapid the switches are LOCKED down. So you have to desolder the whole switch to get at the springs.

(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/df13952b.gif)
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:49:23
and does it guarantee that noise will disappear?
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:50:10
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:48:38
Quote from: Xenderwind on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:46:04
Quote from: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:41:31
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)


:( thank you for the help!
I thought that changing spring doesn't require desoldering...
Requires removing the switch top.  If the switches are plate mounted then it isnt possible to remove them without desoldering, unless you have a custom plate already installed (which would still require you to desolder them all at least once).


On the Quickfire Rapid the switches are LOCKED down. So you have to desolder the whole switch to get at the springs.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/df13952b.gif)


is it true for filco too?
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 24 August 2013, 16:02:42
It's one of the two things based on your description.  Either there's dirt in the switches if you got it used from someone, or you're dealing with "scratchy" unworn switches, where physical friction results in an audible scratchy effect that you can also feel.  If it's the latter, just keep using the keyboard, and the friction will wear down the moving plastic parts inside the switches, and eventually will make your switches very smooth.  If it's the former... you'll have to desolder and open up the switches to clean.

Someone brought up the ping--that's not it.  The ping is a result of resonance in the switch springs and the metal plate + all the empty space in the case.  It sounds echo-y and metallic and is not what you're describing.  To help with ping, line the base of your keyboard between the plastic bottom and the PCB with some quilted foamy rubbery shelf liner to fill up that empty space and reduce vibrations / absorb sound wave reflections.
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 16:07:01
Quote from: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:50:10
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:48:38
Quote from: Xenderwind on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:46:04
Quote from: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:41:31
Quote from: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 15:38:41
he's joking..

This is known as the Cherry MX - PING.

It is due to the spring vibrating either before/ during/ or after  a keystroke.


Common issue.

If you MUST fix it,   Getting another replacement switch will fix the problem.

You "can" just get a new spring,  but don't do that.

BECAUSE....  you have to desolder the switch to swap out the spring anyway.. Might as well just change the whole thing.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)


:( thank you for the help!
I thought that changing spring doesn't require desoldering...
Requires removing the switch top.  If the switches are plate mounted then it isnt possible to remove them without desoldering, unless you have a custom plate already installed (which would still require you to desolder them all at least once).


On the Quickfire Rapid the switches are LOCKED down. So you have to desolder the whole switch to get at the springs.

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/df13952b.gif)


is it true for filco too?

yes it's true for filco also. they're the same design and OEM. Filco uses a better PCB that holds up to soldering better than the Quickfire.. But if you're quick about it... it's not so bad..

You WILL need a desoldering pump with the quickfire.

If you use desoldering braids, there's a greater chance you'll damage the pcb by overheating.


Swapping out the switch is not Guaranteed, because the new switch you put in could possibly ping as well..


What you want to do is TEST the switch before you solder it down..


You would obviously need to buy Multiple switches to ascertain that you have enough that do not ping.

I estimate about 1/10 has some ping,  1/30 has SERIOUS ping  1/100 literally RATTLES the ****znatch

(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/91eea40f.gif)
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 16:10:42
Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 24 August 2013, 16:02:42
It's one of the two things based on your description.  Either there's dirt in the switches if you got it used from someone, or you're dealing with "scratchy" unworn switches, where physical friction results in an audible scratchy effect that you can also feel.  If it's the latter, just keep using the keyboard, and the friction will wear down the moving plastic parts inside the switches, and eventually will make your switches very smooth.  If it's the former... you'll have to desolder and open up the switches to clean.

Someone brought up the ping--that's not it.  The ping is a result of resonance in the switch springs and the metal plate + all the empty space in the case.  It sounds echo-y and metallic and is not what you're describing.  To help with ping, line the base of your keyboard between the plastic bottom and the PCB with some quilted foamy rubbery shelf liner to fill up that empty space and reduce vibrations / absorb sound wave reflections.
Thank you for the reply ! =)
I've bought it new (from keyboardco)
It's not a ping (if I understand it correctly) because it presents even if I push the key very slowly.
Regarding the lining - I saw what you did to your keyboard =) and I've decided to do the same for my filco but didn't bought the lining that would fit correctly (I removed the plaster from foot only yesterday so I didn't have a chance to find =) )
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:09:27
Also, is it normal that almost all keycaps with stabilizers produce different sound depending on what side of the key is pushed (right with metal rattle and left without it)?
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:12:35
I guess it could happen--perhaps you need to put some grease on your stabilizer wires and make sure that the white plastic stabilizer inserts are in properly and don't wobble (add some teflon / pipe tape over them when inserting them into the keycaps).
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: tp4tissue on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:14:52
Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:12:35
I guess it could happen--perhaps you need to put some grease on your stabilizer wires and make sure that the white plastic stabilizer inserts are in properly and don't wobble (add some teflon / pipe tape over them when inserting them into the keycaps).

yes, photo is correct. also, with costar stabilizers, they need the grease. otherwise, there could be some grinding if the cap stems are slightly misaligned (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/d79df121.gif)
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Sat, 24 August 2013, 17:27:24
Thank you. I will try to add some grease (have only for the bicycle chain) but I doubt that will help.
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Sat, 24 August 2013, 20:23:22
The scratchy sound of some switches never went away on my MX brown Majestouch, though I don't notice it now — whether that's just me, or whether it's worn smoother, I don't know. The ping comes and goes, too, so that may also be down to my own perception or changes in the environment.
Title: Re: Noise in some switches
Post by: Phillip_J_Fry on Mon, 26 August 2013, 05:59:20
I'm going to open my filco to add some lining to prevent ping (or to reduce it) and wondering should I remove this warranty sticker? What kind of warranty service I would loose?