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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 12:58:01

Title: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 12:58:01: In this thread I introduce a 60% layout that fulfills the following constraints:

- Must be 60% (it's the "typewriter" cluster of a PC keyboard)
- Must have a standard PC layout: all the keycaps must have standard sizes
- Has an arrow cluster always directly accessible (no Poker-like mode switching)
- Doesn't mess with the Shift keys so touch-typing is still possible
- Has all the other missing keys (F1…F12, PrtScr, ScrlLck, Pause/Break…) accessible through a Fn layer

Here is the layout:
[attachimg=1]

(it's not a chicklet keyboard, imagine Cherry keycaps here)

One key had to be moved, that's the compromise. It turns out that this key is one that is not too frequently used. This key is [/] and is now above the Enter key. The question mark is available by shifting it. [\] and [|] are available on the same key in combination with the Fn key. From the statistics I have collected, "?"+"\"+"|" account for 0.31% of the keystrokes in the context of programming, which is the worst case (if you type English text, it's around 0.1%).

For reference, here is a standard PC layout (the "typewriter" cluster on a full board or TKL):
[attachimg=2]

IMPORTANT: Notice that in the layout I'm suggesting, all the keys have the same size as on the standard keyboard.

Here is the complete layout including the Fn layer. Between parenthesis you have the functions accessible with the Fn key (which can be relocated):
[attachimg=3]

Why this layout?

- To build a 60% keyboard that has always accessible arrows and yet uses standard keycaps, because no commercially available keyboard does this.

- To modify existing standard 60% boards (Poker maybe?) so your arrow keys are always accessible (they are not at this time on the Poker, you need to switch to a different mode to get the arrows, and you lose the right Shift in the process).

I'm aware I may have missed something that would somehow break the usability of this layout. So now I turn to the community for a reality check.

So... What do you think about this layout?
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: dante on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:06:54: I'd like to see a 60% that doesn't require movement off the homerow for all your needs. Instead of using a "FN" key - how about a pedal that can be connected to the board that will activate additional layers?
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:10:47: Quote from: dante on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:06:54
I'd like to see a 60% that doesn't require movement off the homerow for all your needs. Instead of using a "FN" key - how about a pedal that can be connected to the board that will activate additional layers?

I'm just suggesting a layout, something you can use on a keyboard, I'm not suggesting a new device...
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: ___q on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:22:01: I mean, this certainly wouldn't work for me -- I use arrow keys rarely enough that putting them under a fn layer is fine, and I program a lot so /\?| are kind of important keys. I also use right-alt and win at times.

But that doesn't really matter -- this is all software, so if it would work for you, then program it into whatever programmable 60% you want and go to town :p
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:37:49: Interesting layout. Has the UpArrow replaced the front slash/question mark key? If so, how do you access these? The spacebar has also been reduced in size -- not a problem for me with respect to typing, but it could be a problem when it comes to replacing keycaps.
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:43:21: Quote from: rjrich on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:37:49
Interesting layout. Has the UpArrow replaced the front slash/question mark key? If so, how do you access these? The spacebar has also been reduced in size -- not a problem for me with respect to typing, but it could be a problem when it comes to replacing keycaps.

The up arrow has indeed replaced slash. The slash and question mark are above the Enter key, where the backslash used to be. Backslash is done using Fn and this key.

From the statistic I have been able to collect, the total usage frequency of / ? \ and | cumulated is between 0.5 and 2% depending on what kind of text you type. The highest is 2% when typing C-like code (C, Java, C#, Objective-C, ...).

The spacebar has NOT been reduced. There is NO change in the size of any key. Maybe you should read my post again... ;D
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:46:10: I'm a little confused as to what you're proposing. This is just the Pure function layer. On my Pure, you can toggle those arrow keys in that manner.
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:51:10: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:46:10
I'm a little confused as to what you're proposing. This is just the Pure function layer. On my Pure, you can toggle those arrow keys in that manner.

No it's not the Pure layer at all.

1. On the pure, when you have access to the arrows, you cannot access the right Shift+Win+Menu+Ctrl anymore. Losing the right Shift is especially annoying. With my layout you never lose the right Shift.
2. There is no need to toggle access to the arrows in my layout. They are always accessible.

I guess my OP is too long. Looks like nobody reads it. ;D
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:54:33: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg955198#msg955198
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: CPTBadAss on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:55:11: Your OP is horribly confusing. It's not that it's long, it's that it seems to have no clear statement or purpose. Plus the picture downloads don't help. I've read it three times and it makes no sense to me. And the title makes no sense since the Poker X and Poker 2 uses standard keycaps.
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:59:39: Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:54:33
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=37570.msg955198#msg955198

Almost... :)

We have been following the same idea: the right Shift key must not be changed.

But in your layout the arrows must be accessed by a kind of Fn key, which I wanted to avoid.

In the layout I'm suggesting, the arrow keys are always accessible, like on a TKL.

So with the arrows and the Fn key you get Home/End/PgUp/PgDn.
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 14:02:06: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:55:11
Your OP is horribly confusing. It's not that it's long, it's that it seems to have no clear statement or purpose. Plus the picture downloads don't help. I've read it three times and it makes no sense to me. And the title makes no sense since the Poker X and Poker 2 uses standard keycaps.

OK I'm going to edit it and make the images thumbnails. It's just that I wanted to know how many people were actually looking at them.
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 15:48:56: Quote from: CPTBadAss on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:55:11
Your OP is horribly confusing. It's not that it's long, it's that it seems to have no clear statement or purpose. Plus the picture downloads don't help. I've read it three times and it makes no sense to me. And the title makes no sense since the Poker X and Poker 2 uses standard keycaps.

OP edited. I hope it's better now.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: daerid on Sat, 31 August 2013, 19:08:15: Alters the behavior of "\|" key and no "/?" key, no dice.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Obakemono on Sat, 31 August 2013, 19:28:55: Quote from: daerid on Sat, 31 August 2013, 19:08:15
Alters the behavior of "\|" key and no "/?" key, no dice.

^This

Sorry but / is like tons TONS more important than any arrow key.

Really, directories in unix like operating systems, you can't just change that key.

Seriously "/" > than any arrow, any day of the week.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 20:13:10: I'm not sure if I read correctly but you guys think that there is no / ? in this layout?

/ is accessible directly, it has just been moved. ? is accessible by shifting it, as usual.

From the statistics I have been able to collect, the frequency of / ? \ and | cumulated is between 0.5 and 2%. The worst case is 2% for source code.

So in the worst case, 2% of your keystrokes are affected.

Please note that / accounts for almost all of these 2% and that it is still accessible directly.

I'm a Linux user and I don't have to type absolute paths so often that moving the slash key has been disturbing...

But no problem. Thank you guys for giving your opinion.

I would still like to hear from other people...

Edit: I think I'm going to mention in my OP that [/] has not been removed... Just in case...
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: tbc on Sat, 31 August 2013, 21:19:23: personally, I'm not especially fond of layouts that affect the alphasnum (except for the tilde key - i like never use that). As a laptop user for many years, I've learned not to use the bottom right modifiers (i like consistency between my desktop keyboard and my laptop) and would like to use THOSE as the arrow keys.

please don't take this as harsh criticism; I just want to help by contributing feedback.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 21:46:00: Quote from: tbc on Sat, 31 August 2013, 21:19:23
personally, I'm not especially fond of layouts that affect the alphasnum (except for the tilde key - i like never use that). As a laptop user for many years, I've learned not to use the bottom right modifiers (i like consistency between my desktop keyboard and my laptop) and would like to use THOSE as the arrow keys.

please don't take this as harsh criticism; I just want to help by contributing feedback.

Thank you for contributing in a thoughtful way.

I actually feel the same about the right modifiers, and my first attempts at this layout (I designed 6 layouts and I tried them before posting this one) started by attacking this cluster.

The Poker keyboards indeed use Shift+Win+Menu+Ctrl as an inverted T arrow cluster.

However the right Shift is important for touch-typing and is used a lot in this case. So I tried to find a way to allow touch-typing and it occurred to me that you can do so even with a dedicated inverted T arrow cluster in the area.

This comes only at the price of relocating the / key. I say "only" because after looking at the statistics I realized that this key is used much less than I thought. But apparently this is where I'm getting in trouble because people think, as I did, that they use this key often. Or that using another one (a bigger one BTW) is going to be difficult.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ohgodpleaseno on Sat, 31 August 2013, 22:04:18: I seriously love the concept of this keyboard. I have a muscle memory limitation of right shift only and when doing programming work I heavily rely on the arrow keys. I actually bought a Leopold FC660 to satisfy this requirement as best I could, but it actually has large number of very non-standard caps (like the spacebar with unique stem locations and size). I would totally buy this 60%.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sat, 31 August 2013, 22:26:30: Quote from: ohgodpleaseno on Sat, 31 August 2013, 22:04:18
I seriously love the concept of this keyboard. I have a muscle memory limitation of right shift only and when doing programming work I heavily rely on the arrow keys. I actually bought a Leopold FC660 to satisfy this requirement as best I could, but it actually has large number of very non-standard caps (like the spacebar with unique stem locations and size). I would totally buy this 60%.

It's funny because I have got my FC660C just two days ago and I'm replying on it right now.

The FC660C/M was part of my thoughts when I designed this layout. I was considering purchasing a hand-made 22Mini-EX, which is a standard PC layout plus one column of keys on the right side, because I thought that the way the Leopold FC660C/M does it is the only way to have dedicated arrows: you shorten the Shift, put Left/Up/Dowm in the bottom corner and you need one more column for the right arrow.

But it's not a 60% anymore, and this column is there only because of the right arrow. You then populate it with more keys, but you still know why this column is there. And indeed, many people are turned off by the FC660C/M because of the area at the right of the keyboard, which says: "I'm sorry I'm there only because of the arrow, so I give you two more useless keys. I'm the space-waster of this space-saver, forgive me."

I love my FC660C, but I think the layout I'm suggesting may be an alternate suitable way to solve the problem the FC660C/M has been designed to solve.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: daerid on Sun, 01 September 2013, 00:08:51: I know that the / key is used fairly infrequently. But it's important enough to me that moving it would be a problem in a 60% layout.

Honestly, as far as the smaller layouts are concerned, the FC660 layout is the best ice come across. The space wasted by the right hand side is minimal, and I actually enjoy having insert and delete isolated.

But that's the beauty of designing your own: you get to pick what works for you.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: jameslr on Sun, 01 September 2013, 00:22:18: I really like your layout - the only things I would change are this:

For me, I would get rid of right shift (I don't ever use both shifts), slide over arrow keys, put Fn next to spacebar and caps lock to the right of where "up" arrow would then be. That way you could include a / key since unix / linux users use it a lot. Are the function layer mappings for the cursor keys the movement bank keys (Pg Dwn, Pg Up, Home, End)? If so I think that's a great idea. If not then I would definitely program mine to do that.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 01 September 2013, 00:33:07: Quote from: jameslr on Sun, 01 September 2013, 00:22:18
I really like your layout - the only things I would change are this:

For me, I would get rid of right shift (I don't ever use both shifts), slide over arrow keys, put Fn next to spacebar and caps lock to the right of where "up" arrow would then be. That way you could include a / key since unix / linux users use it a lot. Are the function layer mappings for the cursor keys the movement bank keys (Pg Dwn, Pg Up, Home, End)? If so I think that's a great idea. If not then I would definitely program mine to do that.

One of the constraints was to keep both Shifts untouched, in order to allow touch-typing. Another constraint was to keep the same key sizes. So messing with the right Shift is not part of the plan. :)

The third picture I have posted answers your question about Home/End/PgUp/PgDn. The answer is: yes, you do them with Fn-arrow.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: daerid on Sun, 01 September 2013, 00:38:06: Yeah, I couldn't do without the right shift. Use that thing all the time.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Moosecraft on Sun, 01 September 2013, 03:21:12: You could do this to a GH60 no?
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: PepperPanda on Sun, 01 September 2013, 04:47:55: Yeah I'm pretty sure you can do this on the GH60 maybe the TMK firmware. Set it up so that whenever you press shift it changes to another layer. On the separate layer keep the original keymap except change the up arrow to / and on shift release go back to the original layer.

Only problem I see with this layout is what if I want to use shift + arrow up to highlight some line.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 01 September 2013, 06:16:16: Quote from: PepperPanda on Sun, 01 September 2013, 04:47:55
Yeah I'm pretty sure you can do this on the GH60 maybe the TMK firmware. Set it up so that whenever you press shift it changes to another layer. On the separate layer keep the original keymap except change the up arrow to / and on shift release go back to the original layer.

Only problem I see with this layout is what if I want to use shift + arrow up to highlight some line.

...Which is why the slash has been moved so the arrows are real arrows allowing also to select text. With Fn they do Home/End/PgUp/PgDn, and you can even shift those to select to the start of line, end of line, page by page...

I guess it can be done easily on a GH60. I know it can be done on a 2TU which has a similar way to define Fn layouts.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 01 September 2013, 07:19:09: Although that keyboard might not work for me, I think that it's a very ingenious design, and a good compromise.

My personal preference, though, would be to leave ?/ alone, and have the four cursor keys in a row - put the AltGr key up in place of |\. That would overcome some of the most common objections to your design.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: PepperPanda on Sun, 01 September 2013, 16:22:44: Woops my bad misread what you said earlier. Also where would the \| key be on different layer?
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 01 September 2013, 16:36:08: Quote from: quadibloc on Sun, 01 September 2013, 07:19:09
Although that keyboard might not work for me, I think that it's a very ingenious design, and a good compromise.

My personal preference, though, would be to leave ?/ alone, and have the four cursor keys in a row - put the AltGr key up in place of |\. That would overcome some of the most common objections to your design.

I have tried 6 designs including this one. Two of them had the arrows in line, and it was a nightmare to use. Also, it consumed an additional modifier in the bottom row and it meant no AltGr (right Alt) which is a problem for many languages.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 01 September 2013, 16:38:00: Quote from: PepperPanda on Sun, 01 September 2013, 16:22:44
Woops my bad misread what you said earlier. Also where would the \| key be on different layer?

Yes. It's on the third picture I have posted in my OP. Fn + the key above Enter to get backslash. Shift that to get |
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ohgodpleaseno on Sun, 01 September 2013, 17:22:38: How likely is it that this keyboard will become a real thing? I'm not really familiar with custom keyboard creation but I'm very curious what kind of support would be needed to start some kind of development?
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 01 September 2013, 18:09:04: Quote from: ohgodpleaseno on Sun, 01 September 2013, 17:22:38
How likely is it that this keyboard will become a real thing? I'm not really familiar with custom keyboard creation but I'm very curious what kind of support would be needed to start some kind of development?

The idea is not to create a new keyboard. There are already keyboards that could use this layout directly, and some that could use it after modding (Poker and Poker 2 for example).

I wanted to share this layout because I think it solves several problems all at once with minimal inconvenience.

The fact that it uses a standard key layout means that many people could start using it if they wish, and that some keyboard companies could produce it with minimal design costs. For example Vortex can re-use almost all of the Poker hardware to create a keyboard with this layout. They just need to provide slightly different keycaps printings and a different firmware.

Also, because it's "just" a layout, it can be simulated with a driver and you can test the layout on a standard PC keyboard, or on a TKL. Then you can really tell if the only design compromise of the layout is a problem or not. It is not possible to do that with a non-standard key layout: you cannot simulate a Minila, a Tex Beetle or a Pure Pro on a standard keyboard. But with the layout I am suggesting, you can.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: gargintua on Sun, 08 September 2013, 07:12:40: i love designing layouts
and i think this is a genious layout :thumb:

i never use the right modifiers and
on some 60% boards the arrow layout on the wasd would kinda suck

all i need now is a poker?
and some sort of chip? or?

maybe ill just wait for gh60
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:06:17: I prefer:

(http://i.imgur.com/z9QzqJZ.png)

...based on your idea, though eliminating /? is just too severe. Didn't alter any keys other than making R-Shift's additional functionality through a function layer.

Only created it based on the thread, as I was playing around with creating something slightly larger than 60%...I think it works fairly well, and you can add the function layer for specific needs.

This:

(http://i.imgur.com/qJoqxbo.png)

...is what I'd like made and produced for myself (which where my finger happens to R-Shift, this wouldn't affect the new size; imagine some people are the same way). My biggest reason against 60% is the elimination or strange alterations affecting the arrow keys, and 6-keys, which I use often (or in the case of this thread, eliminating the /? key and having no 6-key outside of layers. This would allow a smaller profile, while still maintaining TKL functionality. When I become rich enough, I'd like to make this custom for myself, and any others who want it.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:11:12: Quote from: gargintua on Sun, 08 September 2013, 07:12:40
i love designing layouts
and i think this is a genious layout :thumb:

i never use the right modifiers and
on some 60% boards the arrow layout on the wasd would kinda suck

all i need now is a poker?
and some sort of chip? or?

maybe ill just wait for gh60

As a proof of concept, I am going to mod a Poker to use this layout. I have ordered it, I'm waiting for it now.

I am going to try on a Poker because it's the cheapest 60% keyboard that has a standard layout (like the alpha block on a regular keyboard).

The mod will be part hardware (I need to move the Fn key somewhere else because it interferes with the inverted-T arrows block) and part software (to remap some keys). By software I mean a Mac and Linux driver, because the Poker cannot be reprogrammed.

It is just a way to test the concept. I want to be able to use it for a while so I can find out if there is some unexpected problem. Actually I have postedd this layout also to get some input. Maybe I have overlooked something? Who knows?

Also, people who have a programmable keyboard can try it as well.

Finally, my plan is to order a custom-made keyboard with this layout. This time, no driver will be needed, the layout will be programmed in the keyboard itself.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:35:33: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:06:17
I prefer: this (http://ne0.cc/laygen/#Esc%3A%3A1%20%201%3A%3A1%20%202%3A%3A1%20%203%3A%3A1%20%204%3A%3A1%20%205%3A%3A1%20%206%3A%3A1%20%207%3A%3A1%20%208%3A%3A1%20%209%3A%3A1%20%200%3A%3A1%20%20-_%3A%3A1%20%20+%3D%3A%3A1%20%20Backspace%3A%3A2%24%24%0ATab%3A%3A1.5%20%20Q%3A%3A1%20%20W%3A%3A1%20%20E%3A%3A1%20%20R%3A%3A1%20%20T%3A%3A1%20%20Y%3A%3A1%20%20U%3A%3A1%20%20I%3A%3A1%20%20O%3A%3A1%20%20P%3A%3A1%20%20%5B%7B%3A%3A1%20%20%5D%7D%3A%3A1%20%20%5C%7C%3A%3A1.5%24%24%0ACaps%20Lock%3A%3A1.75%20%20A%3A%3A1%20%20S%3A%3A1%20%20D%3A%3A1%20%20F%3A%3A1%20%20G%3A%3A1%20%20H%3A%3A1%20%20J%3A%3A1%20%20K%3A%3A1%20%20L%3A%3A1%20%20%3B%3A%20%3A%3A1%20%20%27%22%3A%3A1%20%20Enter%3A%3A2.25%24%24%0AShift%3A%3A2.25%20%20Z%3A%3A1%20%20X%3A%3A1%20%20C%3A%3A1%20%20V%3A%3A1%20%20B%3A%3A1%20%20N%3A%3A1%20%20M%3A%3A1%20%20%3C%2C%3A%3A1%20%20%3E.%3A%3A1%20%20/%3F%3A%3A1%20%20%5E%3A%3A1%20%20Shift%3A%3A1.75%24%24%0AControl%3A%3A1.25%20%20Win%3A%3A1.25%20%20Alt%3A%3A1.25%20%20Space%3A%3A6.25%20%20Fn%3A%3A1.25%20%20%3C%3A%3A1.25%20%20v%3A%3A1.25%20%20%3E%3A%3A1.25%20%20%24%24). Didn't alter any keys other than shift size (which where my finger happens to hit it, is unaffected; I imagine some people are the same way), and simply adds arrow keys for those so inclined.

Only created based on the thread, as I was playing around with creating something slightly larger than 60%...I think it works fairly well, and you can add the function layer for specific needs.

EDIT: you have edited your post. What I write below is for your second layout. Your first layout is the Poker layout, which is not touch-typing friendly, as it changes the function of the right Shift key.

Your second layout is not a 60%, and is not what I call a "standard" layout. Where are you going to find a keycap for your right Shift? Imagine you want to put a nice rainbow keycaps set on your keyboard, your right Shift will not be part of the set. So no rainbow keycaps for you, or rainbow keycaps but an ugly right Shift. Maybe you don't care, but many people want to be able change their keycaps. A standard layout allows you to use any standard set of keycaps on your keyboard.

Look, it's quite easy to come up with nice layouts like yours if you give up on the "standard keycaps" idea.

But with your layout you cannot use these keycaps sets (just a few examples):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-White-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/230957623025?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c625a6f1 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-White-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/230957623025?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item35c625a6f1)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Grey-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/330950287238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0e2c9f86 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Grey-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/330950287238?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0e2c9f86)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Blue-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/330950281295?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0e2c884f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/KBC-Blue-Blank-Thick-PBT-104-Keyset-Cherry-MX-Keycaps-/330950281295?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4d0e2c884f)

The constraint I have set for myself is to be able to use standard keycaps sets.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53: I apologize for you seeing my initial post before my modification. :(

I'm not sure what you mean by "not touch-typing friendly." As usage I'm used to, the act of hitting Win+shortcut would be no different than utilizing Fn+R-Shift for up arrow. Be a simple index finger+ring finger all while maintaining a standard layout.

Edit - and I didn't mean you "eliminated" the /? key, but you did move it...my touch-typing would be affected given it's changed location.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:43:14: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53
I apologize for you seeing my initial post before my modification. :(

And please note that I did NOT eliminate / ?

It's on the backslash key now.

If you can do it without moving / ?, and without killing the right Shift, I'm very interested.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:46:38: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53
I apologize for you seeing my initial post before my modification. :(

I'm not sure what you mean by "not touch-typing friendly." As usage I'm used to, the act of hitting Win+shortcut would be no different than utilizing Fn+R-Shift for up arrow. Be a simple index finger+ring finger all while maintaining a standard layout.

Edit - and I didn't mean "eliminate" the /? key...but my touch-typing would be affected given it's changed location.

Touch typing-friendly = you don't kill the right Shift.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:51:03: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53
As usage I'm used to, the act of hitting Win+shortcut would be no different than utilizing Fn+R-Shift for up arrow. Be a simple index finger+ring finger all while maintaining a standard layout.

And now you need another modifier to do PgUp...

It's in the title: "arrows always accessible".

If you are willing to have the arrows in the Fn layer, there are a gazillion ways to do it. I don't want to press any additional key to get the arrows. We are already chording a lot in combination with the arrows (Shift, Ctrl, Ctrl+Shift, maybe Alt also) and I think that having the arrows always accessible is very nice.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:56:12: Quote from: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:46:38
Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53
I apologize for you seeing my initial post before my modification. :(

I'm not sure what you mean by "not touch-typing friendly." As usage I'm used to, the act of hitting Win+shortcut would be no different than utilizing Fn+R-Shift for up arrow. Be a simple index finger+ring finger all while maintaining a standard layout.

Edit - and I didn't mean "eliminate" the /? key...but my touch-typing would be affected given it's changed location.

Touch typing-friendly = you don't kill the right Shift.

I find moving a standard key (/?) based on years of computer use a lot less touch-typing friendly than adding a secondary function to R-Shift while using a function key. :s But I see your point, and the fact that I overlooked your original statement in the OP.

The only other option I can think of that may please us both, is having traditional Caps-Lock as Fn, and the bottom four R-modifiers as < ^ v > . Of course, not being inverted T layout can be problematic, but it's the closest to maintaining Poker-style layout, keeping arrows always accessible, and not altering much else.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 09:05:02: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:56:12
Quote from: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:46:38
Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:39:53
I apologize for you seeing my initial post before my modification. :(

I'm not sure what you mean by "not touch-typing friendly." As usage I'm used to, the act of hitting Win+shortcut would be no different than utilizing Fn+R-Shift for up arrow. Be a simple index finger+ring finger all while maintaining a standard layout.

Edit - and I didn't mean "eliminate" the /? key...but my touch-typing would be affected given it's changed location.

Touch typing-friendly = you don't kill the right Shift.

I find moving a standard key (/?) based on years of computer use a lot less touch-typing friendly than adding a secondary function to R-Shift while using a function key. :s But I see your point, and the fact that I overlooked your original statement in the OP.

The only other option I can think of that may please us both, is having traditional Caps-Lock as Fn, and the bottom four R-modifiers as < ^ v > . Of course, not being inverted T layout can be problematic, but it's the closest to maintaining Poker-style layout, keeping arrows always accessible, and not altering much else.

Yes you are right, and I have tried this layout.

There are two problems with it:
- it's hard to do without the inverted-T arrows block. I have really tried to get used to it, but I couldn't. I think many people would have the same problem, because on most keyboards you have this inverted-T block. If you only ever use your keyboard with your layout, you are fine. As soon as you need to use another computer, you feel the pain. That's what happened to me when I tried this layout with the arrows in a line (I have actually tried 2 layouts like that).
- Half of the world need a right Alt (AltGr), which is used to type symbols that are not accessible directly. The Euro symbol for example, or all the accentuated characters in the european languages. I know I need AltGr...
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 09:14:12: Quote from: spiceBar on Sun, 08 September 2013, 09:05:02
Yes you are right, and I have tried this layout.

There are two problems with it:
- it's hard to do without the inverted-T arrows block. I have really tried to get used to it, but I couldn't. I think many people would have the same problem, because on most keyboards you have this inverted-T block. If you only ever use your keyboard with your layout, you are fine. As soon as you need to use another computer, you feel the pain. That's what happened to me when I tried this layout with the arrows in a line (I have actually tried 2 layouts like that).
- Half of the world need a right Alt (AltGr), which is used to type symbols that are not accessible directly. The Euro symbol for example, or all the accentuated characters in the european languages. I know I need AltGr...

Ah, I see. I have never had a use for AltGr, so I'm not sure I could imagine such a thing.

The closest manufactured keyboard that I've seen to my own desires in a keyboard is the KBT Race. (6-keys, arrow keys, in a small profile)
(http://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/images/products/large_120_RACE.jpg)

This still sets up too many problems with non-standard key sizes, but it keeps enough core functionality inside a small profile that it's worth considering in my personal position.

That being said, I wish you luck in your endeavours and I'm sorry for our miscommunication. Hopefully one day you'll have your keyboard working and I hope you're able to keep us up to date on your project. And hopefully, eventually, I'll be able to make mine.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: davkol on Mon, 09 September 2013, 10:55:27: This layout is horrible. I have experience with typing on Tt Meka, which has the same location of arrow keys, and it's the single most frustrating thing about the keyboard (which is awful anyway... oh wait, that makes it even worse). Why? If I miss the right Shift and hit the arrow by mistake, I'm in the middle of one of the previous lines (not necessarily the previous one, because Shift is usually held, not just pressed), thus I'm writing rubbish that isn't really easy to correct (unlike just some extra slashes). Moreover, AltGr is in a terrible spot—I'd have to strain my pinkie instead of just bending the thumb, moving whole hand would make it necessary to move the other hand to do something like AltGr+K as well, and due to the asymetry, it'd be impossible to press it with ones palm (like left Ctrl).
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: CPTBadAss on Mon, 09 September 2013, 11:04:01: Quote from: davkol on Mon, 09 September 2013, 10:55:27
If I miss the right Shift and hit the arrow by mistake, I'm in the middle of one of the previous lines (not necessarily the previous one, because Shift is usually held, not just pressed), thus I'm writing rubbish that isn't really easy to correct (unlike just some extra slashes).

Interesting. I wonder if I'd have the same issue as davkol. I'm not sure how this layout would feel but I do know that I really like how the arrow function layer works on the Pure. You can just toggle FN + Space and the right shift, menu, right control, and right windows key become the arrows.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: aggiejy on Mon, 09 September 2013, 11:10:00: SpiceBar, nice job! This is an interesting layout. I ordered a few GH60s, one with a plate like this. I might have to try this layout for a bit. Like any custom layout, it will require some muscle memory training, but the new / location isn't bad.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 09 September 2013, 13:20:35: Quote from: aggiejy on Mon, 09 September 2013, 11:10:00
SpiceBar, nice job! This is an interesting layout. I ordered a few GH60s, one with a plate like this. I might have to try this layout for a bit. Like any custom layout, it will require some muscle memory training, but the new / location isn't bad.

Thank you!

If you try the layout, you will find that it needs almost no adaptation time. And it will not break the muscle memory you have developed for other keyboards.

But you don't even need a GH60 to try it.

It's just the alpha block of a standard keyboard, with a few keys remapped.

Simulating the Fn layer is a little bit complicated, but if we are trying the layout on a standard keyboard we can just skip this. The controversial part of the layout is the location of the arrows, the location of the slash, and the location of the right Alt (aka AltGr on international keyboards).

It is quite easy to remap just these keys in software, using AutoHotKey on Windows, KeyRemap4MacBook on Mac OS X or console-setup on Linux.

I appreciate that people take the time to read about my suggested layout, but the criticism is most of the time harsh, and, I believe, would not stand against real use. For example if you screwed up by missing the Shift key and you have left your finger on something else, you have a wonderful shortcut called Ctrl-Z to undo the mess... What I read from this is: "if I screw up on the standard layout, it's my fault. If I screw up on your layout, it's your fault". Cute.

It's a little bit like the various flavors of Cherry MX switches: if you have only read about them, don't expect to know how they feel in reality.

I'm wondering how many of you are interested in trying this layout on their standard keyboards.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: czarek on Tue, 10 September 2013, 06:30:08: Why are you guys so desperate about arrows? I use them so rarely that having them on separate layer like in HHKB doesn't make any difference.
Just get used to Vim and Vimium (plugin for chrome) and forget about arrows ;)
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:17:06: While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing. `~ is missing. I use these daily. Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards. You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:46:43: Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:17:06
While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing. `~ is missing. I use these daily. Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards. You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

:'( Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! :cool:

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 19:02:21: Quote from: spiceBar on Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:46:43
Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:17:06
While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing. `~ is missing. I use these daily. Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards. You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

:'( Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! :cool:

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|. I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it. On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it. With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 11 September 2013, 00:14:16: Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 19:02:21
Quote from: spiceBar on Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:46:43
Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:17:06
While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing. `~ is missing. I use these daily. Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards. You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

:'( Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! :cool:

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|. I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it. On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it. With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.

The idea is to have \ and | both on the Fn and the AltGr (right Alt) layer. This way you can type them with one hand. That's how I have done it using console-setup and xmodmap to simulate the layout on a standard keyboard.

It's funny that some people believe I could have posted a layout with some characters simply missing... Does my OP really look like I have spent only 5 minutes thinking about the design?
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 11 September 2013, 05:15:10: Hi spiceBar, nice layout! Don't be discouraged by the naysayers!

I have a suggestion, however. How about shifting the arrow key cluster to the right, so you use Win, Menu, Ctrl and RShift as arrows, but you modify the firmware like hasu posted here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41685.0

So, the ctrl and shift keys act as modifiers if you hold them down, but arrow keys if they are pressed and released. Then you don't have to move any keys and you only lose Winkey and Menu.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 11 September 2013, 09:09:07: Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 11 September 2013, 05:15:10
Hi spiceBar, nice layout! Don't be discouraged by the naysayers!

I have a suggestion, however. How about shifting the arrow key cluster to the right, so you use Win, Menu, Ctrl and RShift as arrows, but you modify the firmware like hasu posted here: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=41685.0

So, the ctrl and shift keys act as modifiers if you hold them down, but arrow keys if they are pressed and released. Then you don't have to move any keys and you only lose Winkey and Menu.

Thank you Oobly!

I gave a shot at the idea, however the arrows are keys that we like to press and hold to autorepeat them, for example to navigate thru a long page of text.

So I think that arrows doubling as modifiers (or modifiers doubling as arrows) would not work.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: CPTBadAss on Wed, 11 September 2013, 09:16:13: Wish I had a standard 60% layout board so I could give this a go. I'll have to try it out when the GH60s ship.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Niomosy on Wed, 11 September 2013, 15:52:54: Quote from: spiceBar on Wed, 11 September 2013, 00:14:16
Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 19:02:21
Quote from: spiceBar on Tue, 10 September 2013, 16:46:43
Quote from: Niomosy on Tue, 10 September 2013, 13:17:06
While an interesting layout, not very useful to Unix/Linux users.

/? is missing. `~ is missing. I use these daily. Arrows aren't a huge consideration for me whereas others might find them important.

It's probably why there are several 60% keyboards. You can't have everything in such a layout so you're going to have to make design decisions on what to sacrifice to a secondary layer.

:'( Again...

/ ? are not missing. ` ~ are not missing either!

BTW I'm a linux user as well. I use the arrows all the time. Or am I supposed to remap the shortcuts for GEdit, MonoDevelop, KDevelop and a ton of others just so I can avoid using the arrows??? And I don't spend my time typing absolute paths. But if I had to, on the layout I have suggested slash is directly accessible! Yay! You can type paths all day long! Joy, happiness, love, absolute paths and arrow keys! :cool:

The ` and ~ are remapped similarly to the Poker, FC660 and a lot of other 60% boards.

It was hard to actually find the / without seeing the ? as well and it being in the location of \|. I probably automatically saw / as \| and didn't pay attention to it. On another note, looks like \| is now on a second layer at its normal location according to the first shots or am I not seeing that correctly.

It's an interesting layout and if it works for you, go for it. With / in an odd-for-me location and | appearing to be on another layer, it wouldn't work for me as a Unix admin but I suspect many developers would have no problem with such a layout.

The idea is to have \ and | both on the Fn and the AltGr (right Alt) layer. This way you can type them with one hand. That's how I have done it using console-setup and xmodmap to simulate the layout on a standard keyboard.

It's funny that some people believe I could have posted a layout with some characters simply missing... Does my OP really look like I have spent only 5 minutes thinking about the design?

It's not that, it's more pre-conceived notions of keyboard layout, possibly a lack of sleep and/or coffee, etc. doing it more than anything. I'm seeing what you're talking about and realizing my brain saw what it wanted to see more than anything so the problem is on my side, not yours. My apologies there.

The thing I would need to get used to in this layout would more be that I'm no longer using the shift key for the | symbol but another key. Taking another look, wouldn't I be hitting three keys to get the pipe symbol? It's normally a shift required on the \ key to begin with so in your layout, wouldn't I be hitting the Fn+Shift+\ in order to get the pipe symbol? I may be exhausted after hitting the gym then coming back to a massive Unix vulnerabilities list to read and brain's not firing correct so correct me if I'm wrong.

Muscle memory is one of those things people get reluctant to give up on. It probably doesn't help that I'm a stubborn type at times ;)

Like I said, I can see where the layout could work well. I like the thought put into it. I'm not positive it could work for me, but I'm just one guy. Were I to have the money laying around to try it out, I certainly would. Of course, if it's a programmable keyboard, remapping things is a cinch and if a layout just isn't working for me I can try another layout.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Hypersphere on Wed, 11 September 2013, 16:02:56: Quote from: divito on Sun, 08 September 2013, 08:06:17
I prefer:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/z9QzqJZ.png)

...based on your idea, though eliminating /? is just too severe. Didn't alter any keys other than making R-Shift's additional functionality through a function layer.

Only created it based on the thread, as I was playing around with creating something slightly larger than 60%...I think it works fairly well, and you can add the function layer for specific needs.

This:

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/qJoqxbo.png)

...is what I'd like made and produced for myself (which where my finger happens to R-Shift, this wouldn't affect the new size; imagine some people are the same way). My biggest reason against 60% is the elimination or strange alterations affecting the arrow keys, and 6-keys, which I use often (or in the case of this thread, eliminating the /? key and having no 6-key outside of layers. This would allow a smaller profile, while still maintaining TKL functionality. When I become rich enough, I'd like to make this custom for myself, and any others who want it.

Yes, your second design is similar to one that I have proposed (see below). Like you, I have added an extra column to maintain a nearly standard layout. The modifiers could be changed, perhaps via programming, firmware, or DIP switches. The Fn layer would be similar to that of the Leopold FC660C, except that it could be even more sparse, because Home, End, PgUp, and PbDn are already in the primary layer.

I think spiceBar also has some excellent ideas, and I look forward to seeing how his project goes.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Polymer on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:13:06: I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Niomosy on Thu, 12 September 2013, 00:38:23: Quote from: Polymer on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:13:06
I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key. The \| key is now on a second layer.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: dadgh on Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:15:30: Quote from: Niomosy on Thu, 12 September 2013, 00:38:23
Quote from: Polymer on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:13:06
I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key. The \| key is now on a second layer.

Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Polymer on Thu, 12 September 2013, 02:01:11: Quote from: Niomosy on Thu, 12 September 2013, 00:38:23
Quote from: Polymer on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:13:06
I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key. The \| key is now on a second layer.

I know where it is on the layout...I know the key is there but it isn't in the right spot..

Not even going into the | and stuff which will be really bad on a FN layer..

I like the general idea though..
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: divito on Thu, 12 September 2013, 07:17:34: Quote from: dadgh on Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:15:30
Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.

True story.

Quote from: Polymer on Thu, 12 September 2013, 02:01:11
I know where it is on the layout...I know the key is there but it isn't in the right spot..

Not even going into the | and stuff which will be really bad on a FN layer..

I like the general idea though..

:thumb:
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Thu, 12 September 2013, 07:52:08: Quote from: dadgh on Thu, 12 September 2013, 01:15:30
Quote from: Niomosy on Thu, 12 September 2013, 00:38:23
Quote from: Polymer on Wed, 11 September 2013, 20:13:06
I think the design looks pretty good but the loss of a proper / and ? would be really painful...

I actually want to see arrows with IJKL and a left fn key...I think that is the most ideal situation...

I think the hardest part of 60% is for people that actually use insert/home/end, etc a lot...basically 60% is not good for them...

The /? has taken the place of the \| key. The \| key is now on a second layer.

Rendering it a non-option for UNIX users.

Who are you to speak in the name of Unix users?

I am one and I have no trouble using the layout. You did not even try it yourself.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Dawidd on Sun, 22 December 2013, 22:04:21: How would one go about making a board like this? I love the layout :)
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Mon, 23 December 2013, 01:13:48: Quote from: Dawidd on Sun, 22 December 2013, 22:04:21
How would one go about making a board like this? I love the layout :)

Actually since then I have designed another layout that is, in my opinion, even better.

It is called SpaceFN:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=51069.msg1121957#msg1121957

I currently use it all the time and it retains one of the major goal of using a totally standard alphabetic cluster. Check it out!
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: Eszett on Wed, 02 July 2014, 20:59:15: Some affirm they don’t use the arrow keys much, for myself I use them more frequent than any other key. So it’s probably a matter of typing habits. It makes no sense argueing ideologically, since we all have different typing habits. Better create a layout concept on the basis of personal questions:
1) which keys do you personally use how often? which do you use the most? (key usage frequency)
2) which keys are in best reach for your fingers. (key accessability)
then assign those keys you are using most frequent to the keys which are in best reach. If you get rid of keys you don’t use at all (e.g. CapsLock, ScrollLock, RightShift, Pause, WinKey, AppKey), then 60% keyboards have enough keys to allow every function you need.

For me, Home, End, PageUp, PageDown are completely unnecessary as standalone keys, because I feel more comfortable to access those functions by combinations with Fn and arrow keys. I don’t like Ctrl+Left, ..+Right, ..+Up, ..+Down for Home, End, PageUp, PageDown, since those key combinations are already in use for jumping from one cluster of characters to the next cluster. I prefer Fn (Fn+Left, ..+Right, ..+Up, ..+Down) to do that.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 06:16:33: I like the aesthetics of a 60% layout a lot in my Poker X for example. But I cannot keep using it for long periods as I always prefer to have dedicated arrows. It is not a matter of frequency of use, but how useful they are for navigation, blocking selection, as in excel, and windows relocation. I just cannot have them accessed by an FN+ combination, as they can be used with other modifiers for different purposes.

I found the FC-660M layout to be the real minimum for my needs, and TKL the sweet spot against a full keyboard, that I do not like for the position of the mouse.

All opinions can coexist though. However there are some habits that can make some to think that arrows are not important, the fact is that arrows made into keyboard mainstreams for a reason. Only in the typewriter era arrows were not needed at all for the simple fact that you cannot actually navigate in a piece of paper.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: vivalarevolución on Tue, 08 July 2014, 09:58:27: This is a great layout. I think the pipe/backslash would be a great spot for the question mark/forward slash key, and then put the pipe/backslash on the FN layer.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ckar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:12:14: .
Title: Re: Introducing KB604CT: a 60% layout that uses 100% standard keycaps
Post by: FrostyToast on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:22:26: Quote from: dante on Sat, 31 August 2013, 13:06:54
I'd like to see a 60% that doesn't require movement off the homerow for all your needs. Instead of using a "FN" key - how about a pedal that can be connected to the board that will activate additional layers?

I bet you could easily jump some wires on the FN key to add a pedal. I haven't seen anyone do it, but it could definitely be possible.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 12:12:20: Quote from: ckar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:12:14
The layout is terrible. This is exactly why geeks should not be designing keyboards. The arrow cluster looks too ghetto. It is really only something a keyboard geek would have thought of. What is really sad is the OP has just no clue and thinks he has made something great. I am really glad he doesn't have the money to mass produce such a keyboard to bring this monstrosity into the world.

I have since created even more monstrous layouts called SpaceFN and GuiFN.

I'm prepared to take over the world with them thanks to a billionaire friend of mine and forever ruin your life. :)
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 12:12:56: Quote from: ckar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 11:12:14
The layout is terrible. This is exactly why geeks should not be designing keyboards. The arrow cluster looks too ghetto. It is really only something a keyboard geek would have thought of. What is really sad is the OP has just no clue and thinks he has made something great. I am really glad he doesn't have the money to mass produce such a keyboard to bring this monstrosity into the world.

It is more than enough to just say that you do not like it. Oherwise, the layout has the merit to use only standard caps that makes it useful for people that like to customize the board. Also, some of us need arrow keys but the boards that have them are either larger than 60 or have a lot of special keys.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 12:39:59: ckar has a point. This layout is dependent on bottom-row keycap profile and size. While the OP mentions "standard" keycap sizes and stuff, it actually means the layout of Filco Majestouch2, Poker, etc. It looks awkward on a realforce, and hard to use on a Cherry G80-1800 or a 104key Unicomp (e.g., EnduraPro), because of the ? shifted relatively to the right, not left.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 14:16:48: Quote from: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 12:39:59
ckar has a point. This layout is dependent on bottom-row keycap profile and size. While the OP mentions "standard" keycap sizes and stuff, it actually means the layout of Filco Majestouch2, Poker, etc. It looks awkward on a realforce, and hard to use on a Cherry G80-1800 or a 104key Unicomp (e.g., EnduraPro), because of the ? shifted relatively to the right, not left.

I have a Realforce and I have tried the layout on it. It was one of the first keyboards on which I tried it, because I had this keyboard on my Linux box and wanted to xmodmap the layout to try it for real. The fact that the keys are slightly different was not a problem at all.

The G80-1800 has dedicated arrow keys in this area, so why would you use my suggested layout on it?

The layout would be useable on the EnduraPro, but again you why would you use it on a keyboard that already has arrow keys?

The layout has been designed for 60% keyboards, and most of the available ones are exactly as I pictured, except the ones that already have arrow keys, on which you would not use my layout anyway.

Since my OP, I have designed other layouts that I believe are better than this one. But you have already seen them, I know. I just want to point out that this layout was one of my initial attempts and that I know it has several drawbacks.

I have learned a lot from the criticism received from this layout, and in my next attempts (SpaceFN and GuiFN) I have tried to take them into account.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 14:45:08: Why do people use hjkl in Vim, even when they're using a full-size keyboard with arrow keys? Probably because it reduces hand travel. The same thing about DreymaR's Extend layer (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1438).

The keyboards I mentioned were the few I had at hand. It applies to many more (like some hybrid-switch mitsumi or Dell AT101W, because of keycap profile). Besides, some users of keyboards like Filco Minila may wish to remap the layout.

I meant my comment more as a highlight on a design principle.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Tue, 08 July 2014, 14:57:40: Quote from: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 14:45:08
Why do people use hjkl in Vim, even when they're using a full-size keyboard with arrow keys? Probably because it reduces hand travel. The same thing about DreymaR's Extend layer (http://forum.colemak.com/viewtopic.php?id=1438).

The keyboards I mentioned were the few I had at hand. It applies to many more (like some hybrid-switch mitsumi or Dell AT101W, because of keycap profile). Besides, some users of keyboards like Filco Minila may wish to remap the layout.

I meant my comment more as a highlight on a design principle.

But what design principle? I designed a layout to provide direct access to arrow keys on existing 60% keyboards that do not have arrow keys.

It does not fit on SOME full size keyboards or some small keyboards that already have arrow keys? Wow. Too bad.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 15:20:39: Poker and Pure, to be specific. My problem is essentially just with the "standard keycaps" term, because honestly, it's not a standard.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 16:24:29: You should check the ANSI and ISO definitions, besides alpha-numeric characters most of the bottom row are defined as we know in the Poker for example.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: davkol on Tue, 08 July 2014, 17:14:36: *Size* of modifiers is not specified in ISO/IEC 9995. Only placement. Poker isn't ISO-compliant, because of the Fn key to the spacebar's right, among other things.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: jacobolus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:36:01: How about this:
(http://i.imgur.com/r1d2DF0.png)

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:42:35: What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: strict on Tue, 08 July 2014, 21:29:19: Quote from: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:42:35
What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.

Wow, I am sincerely loving that layout. I've never seen a 60% board that I felt I could actually be comfortable using but that layout is definitely one I could adjust to.

Are there any PCBs that would support this layout? The GH60 looks like it would work except for the bottom row (mainly the arrow key layout). It looks like the bottom row is 1.25 x 1 x 1.25 x 6.25 x 1.25 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 ?
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 22:50:52: Quote from: strict on Tue, 08 July 2014, 21:29:19
Quote from: ideus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:42:35
What do you think about this one? Mostly common sizes but a few uncommon ones.

Wow, I am sincerely loving that layout. I've never seen a 60% board that I felt I could actually be comfortable using but that layout is definitely one I could adjust to.

Are there any PCBs that would support this layout? The GH60 looks like it would work except for the bottom row (mainly the arrow key layout). It looks like the bottom row is 1.25 x 1 x 1.25 x 6.25 x 1.25 x 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 ?

Those units are the right ones for the bottom row. I have not found a PCB that supports the layout. I have been considering to build one having a plate cut with laser, and direct wiring it with a Teensy. I have been too busy in the last months but it is in my ToDo list of keyboard projects.

The idea came after an old Mac keyboard layout, that also has that arrangement for the arrows.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 09 July 2014, 04:40:47: Quote from: jacobolus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:36:01
How about this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/r1d2DF0.png)

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.

Not only it does not fit my initial criteria, but I have one specific problem with this kind of layout.

Recently I purchased a G84-4100. After a while trying to use it, I had to give up. The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).

So at least now I know that I will not even try a Race or any other "75%" keyboard.

But that's just me. I know these keyboards are reasonably popular.

On a more general level, I have seen many of the keyboard designs you have published. I have almost never commented on them, not because I'm not interested, but because I have contradicting feelings about them.

On one hand, I don't like any of them. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that. On the other hand, you are clearly working on the subject with a free spirit and good principles, and it's obviously something that I must respect. So I refrain from commenting because I understand I may be too narrow-minded. I have chosen a set of constraints, like using existing layouts, that don't apply to your work. I just follow what you do with interest and I believe that something good will come of it.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: jacobolus on Wed, 09 July 2014, 05:39:28: Quote from: spiceBar on Wed, 09 July 2014, 04:40:47
Quote from: jacobolus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:36:01
How about this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/r1d2DF0.png)

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.
The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).
Notice that “backspace” is a thumb key in my proposed layout. I think you’ll find that with a few hours (or perhaps days at the outside) of adjustment, this is much easier and more natural than reaching up toward a far corner of the keyboard. (Though depending on your habits, you might prefer to use the left thumb for space and the right thumb for backspace.) The key in the top right-ish of this proposed layout is the 'delete' key. On a keyboard intended for my own personal use, I wouldn’t put that there (or use anything this close to a standard keyboard layout, for that matter). However, some people seem to like having access to as many as possible of the keys available on a TKL size keyboard, so I stuck delete in there.

Your original criteria were:
Quote
1. Must be 60% (it's the "typewriter" cluster of a PC keyboard)
2. Must have a standard PC layout: all the keycaps must have standard sizes
3. Has an arrow cluster always directly accessible (no Poker-like mode switching)
4. Doesn't mess with the Shift keys so touch-typing is still possible
5. Has all the other missing keys (F1…F12, PrtScr, ScrlLck, Pause/Break…) accessible through a Fn layer
This layout satisfies (1) precisely; it somewhat satisfies (2) in that it leaves the alpha keys, all the symbols except backtick, enter, both shifts, and the main modifiers unmoved, while slightly moving tab and backtick, shifting the whole number row to the right by half a key, and pushing backspace to a thumb (and pushing caps lock off the base layer) – of course, it very much fails to use standard keycaps for everything; it satisfies (3) and (4), and meets (5) with ease.

I think this is closer to “standard” than your proposed layout in several important ways: (a) it preserves Alt Gr, (b) it preserves backtick and backslash, (c) it leaves slash (which is also question mark) in its original easy-to-locate position, (d) it keeps the arrow keys in their standard shape/arrangement, (e) it includes page up/page down/home/end/delete.

[Hope I don’t sound defensive here... I’m mostly just throwing out ideas here and hoping someone is inspired, not necessarily suggesting anyone should use precisely this layout. Again, I wouldn’t use it myself. For me personally, separate arrow keys is an anti-feature.]

Quote
On one hand, I don't like any of [the various layouts I’ve been proposing recently]. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that.
That’s entirely fair. From my perspective, the standard QWERTY/Sholes layout is so impressively bad that anything that *doesn’t* go very far from standard is doing something very wrong. ;-) The lowest-hanging fruit as far as improvements go is making sure there’s at least one common key for each thumb to press, and moving backspace to a more convenient location, since the standard backspace location is truly awful.
Title: Re: Introducing a 60% layout, 100% standard keycaps, with arrows always accessible
Post by: spiceBar on Wed, 09 July 2014, 06:08:20: Quote from: jacobolus on Wed, 09 July 2014, 05:39:28
Quote from: spiceBar on Wed, 09 July 2014, 04:40:47
Quote from: jacobolus on Tue, 08 July 2014, 20:36:01
How about this:
Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/r1d2DF0.png)

Not really “standard keycaps” but should cover all the other important criteria.
The main problem is that the backspace key is not in the corner of the keyboard, on in the corner of a cluster (like on a TKL for example). I always miss backspace on the G84-4100. I know it sounds ridiculous, but it was a real problem for me (the horrible ML switches, even after lubing, didn't help either).
Notice that “backspace” is a thumb key in my proposed layout. I think you’ll find that with a few hours (or perhaps days at the outside) of adjustment, this is much easier and more natural than reaching up toward a far corner of the keyboard. (Though depending on your habits, you might prefer to use the left thumb for space and the right thumb for backspace.) The key in the top right-ish of this proposed layout is the 'delete' key. On a keyboard intended for my own personal use, I wouldn’t put that there (or use anything this close to a standard keyboard layout, for that matter). However, some people seem to like having access to as many as possible of the keys available on a TKL size keyboard, so I stuck delete in there.

Your original criteria were:
Quote
1. Must be 60% (it's the "typewriter" cluster of a PC keyboard)
2. Must have a standard PC layout: all the keycaps must have standard sizes
3. Has an arrow cluster always directly accessible (no Poker-like mode switching)
4. Doesn't mess with the Shift keys so touch-typing is still possible
5. Has all the other missing keys (F1…F12, PrtScr, ScrlLck, Pause/Break…) accessible through a Fn layer
This layout satisfies (1) precisely; it somewhat satisfies (2) in that it leaves the alpha keys, all the symbols except backtick, enter, both shifts, and the main modifiers unmoved, while slightly moving tab and backtick, shifting the whole number row to the right by half a key, and pushing backspace to a thumb (and pushing caps lock off the base layer) – of course, it very much fails to use standard keycaps for everything; it satisfies (3) and (4), and meets (5) with ease.

I think this is closer to “standard” than your proposed layout in several important ways: (a) it preserves Alt Gr, (b) it preserves backtick and backslash, (c) it leaves slash (which is also question mark) in its original easy-to-locate position, (d) it keeps the arrow keys in their standard shape/arrangement, (e) it includes page up/page down/home/end/delete.

Your points are correct.

You know, the layout I have suggested in this thread is quite old now. It was my first published attempt and I have learned from the feedback I have got. I don't think it's good anymore.

I have answered some other remarks because I felt some were not justified, but frankly my newest layouts SpaceFN and GuiFN are much better.

Quote
[Hope I don’t sound defensive here... I’m mostly just throwing out ideas here and hoping someone is inspired, not necessarily suggesting anyone should use precisely this layout. Again, I wouldn’t use it myself.]

Quote
On one hand, I don't like any of [the various layouts I’ve been proposing recently]. They are always too far from any standard. So my first reaction would be to criticize that.
That’s entirely fair. From my perspective, the standard QWERTY/Sholes layout is so impressively bad that anything that *doesn’t* go very far from standard is doing something very wrong. ;-)

I don't want to reinvent the keyboard.

I just want to use what's out there and adapt it with a few changes.

The layouts I have published are all doable on a commercially available keyboards like the Poker X or Poker II and either a software driver or a hardware controller. Keycaps can be found or can be manufactured easily, and this is available to anyone (I have designed and purchased customized keysets from WASD for the SpaceFN and GuiFN layouts).

As a result, all the layouts I have published have been implemented in the real world, by me and by a number of other people.

There are real keyboards out there using the layouts I have suggested, and this was one of my goals.

You have more ambitious goals, that's OK.