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geekhack Community => Other Geeky Stuff => Topic started by: Icte on Fri, 06 September 2013, 07:06:31
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Hey guys!
I'm about to build my first desktop after a long wait 'til the Ivy Bridge Extreme processors would finally be released BUT I suddenly got stuck and now I can't choose anymore!
AMD CPU's are cheaper but are waaay after Intel CPU's in terms of performance, HOWEVER AMD has released a couple of 8 cores processors which I find really interesting..
Now this is what I am looking for: I want a processor for gaming and programming (thinking of compiling, sometimes a lot of code). I also want to have a good overclockable CPU and would preferbly avoid the crappy TIM that Intel uses in their Ivy Bridge and Haswell models, which is why Inwas looking at the Ivy Bridge Extreme versions with fluxless solder :)
Now what do you think guys? Suggestions?
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I also want to have a good overclockable CPU and would preferbly avoid the crappy TIM that Intel uses in their Ivy Bridge and Haswell models, which is why Inwas looking at the Ivy Bridge Extreme versions with fluxless solder :)
If you could afford an Extreme Version then buy it.
Otherwise you can simply buy a second hand Ivy or Haswell off Ebay and pry open the IHS and replace the TIM with something more suitable. Google would be your best bet in finding how to do that effectively.
Also all the current AMD FX 6300, FX 8320 and FX 8350's are ideal cpu's for any 990FX motherboard. Also don't forget to get a 240gb SSD and some decent 1600 speed (minimum) memory. If you could afford any 2133 or 2400 spec memory then go for that instead.
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Um..... The Ivy extreme is a good cpu, but it's a little held back by the old old super old platform... Memory bandwidth/ latency problems, and overall can't be overclocked past 4.5ghz, which is ridiculous...
You're best off getting a 4770k and deliding.
The new methods they've come up with for delidding are safe and easy.
4.8ghz is guaranteed after delid
If you're gonna run stock, then just buy a Dell, can't beat their pricing... the 3770/4770 (non-k-series) @ stock are 5% away from each other... so wait for 3770 Dell sales.
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I've always been an Intel kinda guy.
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Another for Intel based systems. I have had a few AMD builds over the years, but allways ended up unsatisfied with them in one way or another.
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I like intel, I had an AMD before and it was ok but I prefer Intel.
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I love Intel myself! It's just that their pricing can be ridiculously high and with barely no competition they still haven't given out an 8 core processor (except for the holymozilla priced Xeon ones and yes I know Haswell-E will have one but it'll most likely cost 1000 euros or more >.<).. And the whole crappy TIM inside.. Guhhh!!
I did think of buying 4770k and delidding as many of you have suggested.. But fluxless solder will always be better than any TIM on the inside of the lid no?
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I would recommend Intel, but AMD could be beneficial if you're gaming/rendering because it will leave more in the budget to buy more/fast Ram and a better Graphics Card.
Edit: Don't know why I thought you needed to render :3
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Well guess the majority loves Intel (as expected! :))!
Now for my second question: For gaming/coding (and possibly compiling lots of code), which Intel CPU would be more beneficial (think Haswell, Ivy Bridge, Ivy Bridge-E or Sandy Bridge-E)?
BTW, EVGA recently released a new X79 motherboard - EVGA X79 Dark. Wouldn't that be a good option if you'd go with an Extreme CPU?
And AMD lovers - which CPU would you recommend for gaming/coding(and possibly compiling lots of code)?
Video rendering? NO!
EDIT: I will also be using (eventually) two graphics cards AND one sound card (for some delicious 7.1 Surround Sound.. mmmm!). Won't an X79 system be more beneficial, since it has more PCIe lanes and also supports 16x for both graphics cards (instead of 8x on each when used on a Z87?)?
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
Not a real 8 core? Elaborate please!
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
Not a real 8 core? Elaborate please!
It's a 4core processor with 4 more 'virtual' cores. Each core module shares it's resources with another core so one core can be doing nothing while the other is doing work.
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
Not a real 8 core? Elaborate please!
It's a 4core processor with 4 more 'virtual' cores. Each core module shares it's resources with another core so one core can be doing nothing while the other is doing work.
And that's good? Or is a true 8-core CPU better?
EDIT: What Bulldozer would you recommend?
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
Not a real 8 core? Elaborate please!
It's a 4core processor with 4 more 'virtual' cores. Each core module shares it's resources with another core so one core can be doing nothing while the other is doing work.
And that's good? Or is a true 8-core CPU better?
EDIT: What Bulldozer would you recommend?
There isn't a true 8 core processor available to the public yet.
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/309/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8150_vs_AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350.html (http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/309/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8150_vs_AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350.html)
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What about PowerPC?
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If you go AMD you may as well get a bulldozer, although it's not a true 8 core processor. They are however blazingly fast, and that's from an Intel fanboy. Faster than anything you would need for a long time. Actually, there's really no point to it except for epeen flexing.
Not a real 8 core? Elaborate please!
It's a 4core processor with 4 more 'virtual' cores. Each core module shares it's resources with another core so one core can be doing nothing while the other is doing work.
And that's good? Or is a true 8-core CPU better?
EDIT: What Bulldozer would you recommend?
There isn't a true 8 core processor available to the public yet.
http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/309/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8150_vs_AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350.html (http://www.cpu-world.com/Compare/309/AMD_FX-Series_FX-8150_vs_AMD_FX-Series_FX-8350.html)
not the "poor" public no.. but they make 8core/ 12core xeons
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What about PowerPC?
NO!
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What about PowerPC?
I recently got rid of my Macbook Pro with a 1.67ghz powerPC chip. It could almost run You tube .....almost.
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Um..... The Ivy extreme is a good cpu, but it's a little held back by the old old super old platform... Memory bandwidth/ latency problems, and overall can't be overclocked past 4.5ghz, which is ridiculous...
You're best off getting a 4770k and deliding.
The new methods they've come up with for delidding are safe and easy.
4.8ghz is guaranteed after delid
If you're gonna run stock, then just buy a Dell, can't beat their pricing... the 3770/4770 (non-k-series) @ stock are 5% away from each other... so wait for 3770 Dell sales.
^ Pay no attention to this.
First, delidding is not simple and easy. It is tricky and dangerous. Especially for the nub. You should only do it if you are willing/ able to risk destroying your cpu and buying a new one. If the prospect of buying a new cpu is not a problem financially or emotionally then have at it. Otherwise, you can still do it, but just be very careful, and be forewarned that things can go badly. A cavalier attitude is not the approach to take.
Second, there is no guaranteed overclock on any chip: Haswell, Ivy, or even Sandy. However, Haswell and Ivy Bridge are even more idiosyncratic than Sandy was, meaning that it's the luck of the draw on each chip you get. You might get a 5ghz wonder chip, but more likely you will get a 4.2 to 4.4ghz "average" chip. Or you could do even worse. You just never know. In order to get a really great chip, you could do what the pro's do and buy three at once, and test them all, and then return or sell the ones you don't want. And then buy three more, and so on, until you get that 5ghz chip that you can post online and win benchmarks with.
Third, even after delidding, and applying a very good TIM like liquid metal, or the like, you will be very lucky to get a 4.8ghz overclock on any i7 4770K. And if you do, you might not be able to keep it stable for very long. As the cpu breaks down from heat, you may find that you have to lower your OC to 4.6 or 4.4 or even 4.2.
However, with that said, my advice is that you buy one Haswell i7 4770K and overclock it, knowing aforehand that the temps get very high when you raise the voltage.
You then will have two choices:
(1) you can simply settle for a "mild" overclock.
or (2) if you want the most extreme overclock possible for your chip, you have to remove the heat spreader, replace the TIM, and then replace the heat spreader. And then get some custom water cooling. Like a 480mm radiator and a dual Liang DDC 3.25 pump setup.
If you want to go the simplest (and cheapest) route to overclocking, I would get an i7 4770K, and get a Corsair H100i water cooler http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181032, and see if you can get to 4.0ghz or maybe 4.2 ghz and call it a day. That is a great overclock, and will yield great performance.
If maxing out the performance of your rig is your key goal, I would also consider the following:
Also think about getting 16GB of RAM rated at 2133 mhz or better, which will also help performance. Some idiot might tell you to stick with 1600mhz, which is fine, but will not yield the best performance. You can notice a difference between 1600 and 2133. Don't listen to the slavish devotees of anandtech.com who hate high speed RAM.
For gaming you are going to need the best gfx card you can afford. First choice should be the GTX780. (Titan is only slightly better, but costs nearly double, so don't bother with Titan.) If you are on a tight budget however, then GTX770 is great performer, although the best bang-for-buck gfx card is probably the Radeon 7950.
And finally of course, an SSD will greatly improve performance as well. And bigger is better. And they keep getting cheaper all the time. Do not RAID SSD's as it cuts out TRIM support, and the gains in real world performance are so negligible, it's not worth it. You are better off getting a bigger HDD for backup storage.
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Um..... The Ivy extreme is a good cpu, but it's a little held back by the old old super old platform... Memory bandwidth/ latency problems, and overall can't be overclocked past 4.5ghz, which is ridiculous...
You're best off getting a 4770k and deliding.
The new methods they've come up with for delidding are safe and easy.
4.8ghz is guaranteed after delid
If you're gonna run stock, then just buy a Dell, can't beat their pricing... the 3770/4770 (non-k-series) @ stock are 5% away from each other... so wait for 3770 Dell sales.
^ Pay no attention to this.
First, delidding is not simple and easy. It is tricky and dangerous. Especially for the nub. You should only do it if you are willing/ able to risk destroying your cpu and buying a new one. If the prospect of buying a new cpu is not a problem financially or emotionally then have at it. Otherwise, you can still do it, but just be very careful, and be forewarned that things can go badly. A cavalier attitude is not the approach to take.
Second, there is no guaranteed overclock on any chip: Haswell, Ivy, or even Sandy. However, Haswell and Ivy Bridge are even more idiosyncratic than Sandy was, meaning that it's the luck of the draw on each chip you get. You might get a 5ghz wonder chip, but more likely you will get a 4.2 to 4.4ghz "average" chip. Or you could do even worse. You just never know. In order to get a really great chip, you could do what the pro's do and buy three at once, and test them all, and then return or sell the ones you don't want. And then buy three more, and so on, until you get that 5ghz chip that you can post online and win benchmarks with.
Third, even after delidding, and applying a very good TIM like liquid metal, or the like, you will be very lucky to get a 4.8ghz overclock on any i7 4770K. And if you do, you might not be able to keep it stable for very long. As the cpu breaks down from heat, you may find that you have to lower your OC to 4.6 or 4.4 or even 4.2.
However, with that said, my advice is that you buy one Haswell i7 4770K and overclock it, knowing aforehand that the temps get very high when you raise the voltage.
You then will have two choices:
(1) you can simply settle for a "mild" overclock.
or (2) if you want the most extreme overclock possible for your chip, you have to remove the heat spreader, replace the TIM, and then replace the heat spreader. And then get some custom water cooling. Like a 480mm radiator and a dual Liang DDC 3.25 pump setup.
If you want to go the simplest (and cheapest) route to overclocking, I would get an i7 4770K, and get a Corsair H100i water cooler http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181032, and see if you can get to 4.0ghz or maybe 4.2 ghz and call it a day. That is a great overclock, and will yield great performance.
If maxing out the performance of your rig is your key goal, I would also consider the following:
Also think about getting 16GB of RAM rated at 2133 mhz or better, which will also help performance. Some idiot might tell you to stick with 1600mhz, which is fine, but will not yield the best performance. You can notice a difference between 1600 and 2133. Don't listen to the slavish devotees of anandtech.com who hate high speed RAM.
For gaming you are going to need the best gfx card you can afford. First choice should be the GTX780. (Titan is only slightly better, but costs nearly double, so don't bother with Titan.) If you are on a tight budget however, then GTX770 is great performer, although the best bang-for-buck gfx card is probably the Radeon 7950.
And finally of course, an SSD will greatly improve performance as well. And bigger is better. And they keep getting cheaper all the time. Do not RAID SSD's as it cuts out TRIM support, and the gains in real world performance are so negligible, it's not worth it. You are better off getting a bigger HDD for backup storage.
Hm.. But won't a 2700K on 5 GHz perform better than a 4770K on 4.2 GHz? In that case I won't have to delid at all?
And yeah I was thinking of getting 2133 MHz RAM anyway :) And it will be 16 GB! :D
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Go intel is the short answer, but don't take my word for it, look up the reviews and yes I used them both. Coming from Phenom x6 @ 3.2 stock struggling to reach 4.0 OC on ASUS Crosshair III had to keep it at 3.9 max acceptable temps but thinking that H50 was cooling it down with 2 high speed fans on it..... AMD was a a one very hot chip..... Looks like the new so called FX 8 cores are actually weaker in core performance going vs my old Phenom, but they are somewhat good for multitasking.
I would of still run on my AMD but since the mobo fried I end up getting Asrock Fatality z77 mobo and paired it with the 3570K and 16 GB ram ( combo price $600). I still have the old 2x6870's in the system and might upgrade when the 8xxx series become cheaper towards the end on 2014, probably I'll get 2 high end 8xxx cards after the release of the 9xxx cards.
But as far as Intel goes vs AMD, dude I smacked the Intel to 4.4 GHZ stable without any sort of voltage bump anywhere!!!! stock volts at 4.4, even though people said that the 3570k versions run little hotter than the previous I5's the difference between the I5 4.4 and Phenom 4.0 temps are night and day, Intel chip has way cooler temps and as for the performance lol yea intel is way ahead of the phenom x6 4.0ghz while the intel at stock 3.4ghz and only 4 cores....
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Um..... The Ivy extreme is a good cpu, but it's a little held back by the old old super old platform... Memory bandwidth/ latency problems, and overall can't be overclocked past 4.5ghz, which is ridiculous...
You're best off getting a 4770k and deliding.
The new methods they've come up with for delidding are safe and easy.
4.8ghz is guaranteed after delid
If you're gonna run stock, then just buy a Dell, can't beat their pricing... the 3770/4770 (non-k-series) @ stock are 5% away from each other... so wait for 3770 Dell sales.
Hm.. But won't a 2700K on 5 GHz perform better than a 4770K on 4.2 GHz? In that case I won't have to delid at all?
And yeah I was thinking of getting 2133 MHz RAM anyway :) And it will be 16 GB! :D
No, it won't, the 2700 @ 5ghz will only be 4% faster than the 4770k @ 4.2ghz
Since you can easily get 4.2ghz on the 4770k, You should still get the 4770k, since it has better features else where.
The point is though... 4.8ghz 4770k is very common once delid, it is noob proof, just like soldering...
Some idiots will try to tell you how hard it is, but why should you listen to them, they're idiots.
If you're a grown ass man, and you can pry a little piece of aluminum off a CPU, that's shameful..
just like if you can't solder, which is akin to a glorified hot glue gun.
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ICTE, if you are even considering AMD, why bother de-lidding? Intel pretty much blows it away without de-lidding. Intel is just leaps and bounds ahead.
Honestly, I think you are putting way too much thought into this. The processor is more than likely not going to be your bottleneck anyhow and even if it is, there's not much you can do about it. You generally need a 10% gain to be perceptively faster. So gaining 3 or 4 percent, is only visible on a benchmark. Is it really worth the money to prove how fast you are with a benchmark? It's an e-peen race.
Get you a good I5 or I7, no more than 16gigs of ram, and a nice SSD and call it a day.
Overclocking and watercooling are solutions to a problem that for the most part no longer exists. Back when you could overclock by 30-40% or so and we had very little ram, yes, every bit mattered, these days, no. We have TONS of memory and tons of power, and while you may get a 10% overclock or so, it doesn't translate to a 10% faster computer. By the time you go through everything, it's more like 3%. It's just not worth the hassle anymore.
The point is though... 4.8ghz 4770k is very common once delid, it is noob proof, just like soldering...
Yeah, we NEVER hear of people having soldering issues.
This isn't oops, I messed up a Cherry switch or a QFR. You're talking a good $200 and you can't just fix it with a jumper wire or 60 cent switch. This is a bend over type of mistake.
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I much prefer Intel.
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I much prefer Intel.
For office and gaming, AMD is perfectly fine. For a system doing hardcore grunt work, like 3d rendering, Intel, without a doubt. Laptops... Intel, no question.
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I much prefer Intel.
For office and gaming, AMD is perfectly fine. For a system doing hardcore grunt work, like 3d rendering, Intel, without a doubt. Laptops... Intel, no question.
Very true. I've actually never owned an AMD system myself, I just normally stick with Intel. But as you said, especially if you're on a budget AMD is still good.
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I much prefer Intel.
For office and gaming, AMD is perfectly fine. For a system doing hardcore grunt work, like 3d rendering, Intel, without a doubt. Laptops... Intel, no question.
Very true. I've actually never owned an AMD system myself, I just normally stick with Intel. But as you said, especially if you're on a budget AMD is still good.
AMD user here. My 960T phenom does just fine with a 660Ti. Daily use plus some gaming is not a problem. Video editing? Yeah, not so great, but whats a few more minutes while I walk away and grab another cup of coffee? For a budget, you can't go wrong with an AMD setup. If I had the $$, I would have an Intel setup, but for what I do, the Phenom is perfect. Not to mention, it allows me to do a lot of overclocking and tinkering to see if I can make it any better.
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I don't care as long as it has good performance per watt. I have modest requirements for horsepower. I want longer battery-life, a cooler quieter PC and a lower energy-bill.
I hope that some time not too far in the future, we can transcend from being locked into one ISA into proper CPU-independent computing. (the old pipe dream, I know) Then we would be able to see some real competition in the CPU market.
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Well guys you're just confirming exactly the way I've been thinking about Intel and AMD! Still leaning towards Intel tbh :)
But now for the big question to settle this all - with the recent architecture Intel has released, overclocking has been a pain (without de-lidding). What would be the best overclocker, an AMD Fx-8350 (or Fx-9590) or an Intel i7-4770K?
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Well guys you're just confirming exactly the way I've been thinking about Intel and AMD! Still leaning towards Intel tbh :)
But now for the big question to settle this all - with the recent architecture Intel has released, overclocking has been a pain (without de-lidding). What would be the best overclocker, an AMD Fx-8350 (or Fx-9590) or an Intel i7-4770K?
It's not a "pain", you just don't get as high a clock as you used to. right now 4.4ghz is pretty standard without delid on the 4xxx intels
Intel has a better CPU at EVERY price point..
The only reason to get AMD is if you are desperately poor and can only afford to stick with iGPU, in which case, AMD's is far superior to Intel's IRIS.
If you are that destitute, perhaps you should invest in a marijuana business, as that is looking to be of huge prospects.
Then you can use the money you've made and buy a Real gaming computer. or you know hookers and blow, w/e you like.
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_102_.gif)
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Intel has a better CPU at EVERY price point..
That's mostly true in terms of cpu vs cpu, AMD is often only a few bucks cheaper.
However, the price gap expands once you include the motherboard.
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Intel has a better CPU at EVERY price point..
That's mostly true in terms of cpu vs cpu, AMD is often only a few bucks cheaper.
However, the price gap expands once you include the motherboard.
for OC capable boards, the ones with higher power phases, they cost the same, round $150 for either camp.
AMD OC, also tends to need a higher quality board than intel, because their chip uses more power.
While with Intel, if you're willing to bare with a bit of overvoltage, You can get away with achieving MAXIMUM OVERCLOCK on the cheapo asrock boards. ~$75-80
AMD, there's no way to get a good oc on any board less than $150... You can try but it'll really suck.
You can find super cheap boards in either camp as well, and it may be true that you get more features on the AMD board for the same price as the super cheap intel board.
EVEN THEN.. since CPU performance is what matters most, Intel still has the lead.
Besides, the additional features offered by amd on their boards would be in the realm of, more connectors..
For the budget buyer, They wouldn't be needing these extra expansions because they wouldn't be buying that many extra parts to plug into their boards to begin with..
That is how I arrived at the conclusion that Intel is better at every price.
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I just ordered an ASUS A4 system for $339 delivered from Newegg. This is for the relatives: browsing, Google Earth, spreadsheets, etc. I actually did some benchmark comparisons to make sure there was plenty of horsepower and that they wouldn't need to upgrade for another 6-7 years.
The other criteria was that it come with Windows 7 instead of 8.
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I just ordered an ASUS A4 system for $339 delivered from Newegg. This is for the relatives: browsing, Google Earth, spreadsheets, etc. I actually did some benchmark comparisons to make sure there was plenty of horsepower and that they wouldn't need to upgrade for another 6-7 years.
The other criteria was that it come with Windows 7 instead of 8.
wha.. why you no build ivy pentium with that money..
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for OC capable boards, the ones with higher power phases, they cost the same, round $150 for either camp.
In my opinion, if you need that kind of power and/or you are spending that much, you should just buy Intel.
I resign AMD to the lower end office desktops and file servers. I ran them for years, I like the company, I prefer their video cards, but ever since the C2D, Intel has just been kicking their @ss.
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True, AMD is good but not as good as Intel.. And I do need max horsepower!
Reason AMD interested me in the first place was because of the 8-core processors but now I know that they're "fake".. Like Intel's hyperthreading kinda, no?
But I'm sticking with Intel, they haven't disappointed me in the laptop area and probably won't in the desktop area either.. Thanks guys!
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you should invest in a marijuana business, as that is looking to be of huge prospects.
THERE'S SOME GOOD ADVICE! ALSO YOU SHOULD INVEST IN MICROSOFT AS WELL, AS THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING!
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During the original athlon, thunderbird etc days, AMD was my pick but these days since the Core processors Intel owns the market, it's kind of sad.
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ALSO YOU SHOULD INVEST IN MICROSOFT AS WELL, AS THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING!
You worry me greatly with this, "THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING" :o .
I know we all use Microsoft OS in varying versions but there are others which are just as good/better (Linux, MacOS users take note).
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I just ordered an ASUS A4 system for $339 delivered from Newegg. This is for the relatives: browsing, Google Earth, spreadsheets, etc. I actually did some benchmark comparisons to make sure there was plenty of horsepower and that they wouldn't need to upgrade for another 6-7 years.
The other criteria was that it come with Windows 7 instead of 8.
wha.. why you no build ivy pentium with that money..
They would not have accepted it due to a boycott of Israeli-made products. And I didn't want to be 100% responsible and on-call for another system, anyway.
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you should invest in a marijuana business, as that is looking to be of huge prospects.
THERE'S SOME GOOD ADVICE! ALSO YOU SHOULD INVEST IN MICROSOFT AS WELL, AS THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING!
So.. You recommend Windows 95 I assume? With Internet Explorer..?
Actually, mr Microsoft! Would YOU go with Intel or AMD for your ultimate Windows computer???
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ALSO YOU SHOULD INVEST IN MICROSOFT AS WELL, AS THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING!
You worry me greatly with this, "THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING" :o .
I know we all use Microsoft OS in varying versions but there are others which are just as good/better (Linux, MacOS users take note).
MAC OS IS NOT BETTER THAN WINDOWS IN ANY WAY. WINDOWS IS COMPLETELY SUPERIOR.
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ALSO YOU SHOULD INVEST IN MICROSOFT AS WELL, AS THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING!
You worry me greatly with this, "THEIR OPERATING SYSTEM IS THE FUTURE OF COMPUTING" :o .
I know we all use Microsoft OS in varying versions but there are others which are just as good/better (Linux, MacOS users take note).
MAC OS IS NOT BETTER THAN WINDOWS IN ANY WAY. WINDOWS IS COMPLETELY SUPERIOR.
You heard the man!