geekhack

geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: miko on Mon, 09 September 2013, 14:55:26

Title: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: miko on Mon, 09 September 2013, 14:55:26

I seems to me nobody "gets" (read: Nobody shares my ideas  :) ) how to make a 60% iso keyboard, so i want to make my own. I would greatly appreciate your feedback.

Motivation

At dumpster diving a my uni i found serveral cherry keyboards. Mostly USB and black switches. They are disgusting (i guess that is why they where thrown away), but seem to work just fine. Do the keys wear out? I know rubber dome wear out quite fast and become unusable. My antique Model M has a broken key, but the rest is just doing fine, just like my (due to connectivity issues unusable) WYSE terminal Keyboard with black cherries. But in a very rough and heavy use environment things might be different? Anyway, I want to reuse the keys start some DIY. That's how it started.

60% Keyboard are the new fad and I want one. I considered buying a Happy hacking. But hell no, they are a way to expensive.  I considered buying a Poker. Very nice keyboards, but only ANSI. My mother tongue is German and I do not want to miss my beloved 4 non-standard letters Ä/ä Ö/ö Ü/ü ẞ/ß. I do code and many people switch to us-american layout for that, so i could buy a ansi layout right away, but that's nothing i can get behind.

There is a German Poker variant.
(http://kbtrace.com/media/catalog/product/cache/11/image/e0874faa8faeee1e7c278ea66dcf8090/d/e/de_real_1_3.jpg)


There are several things I do not like with this keyboard. The shift keys are a way to small. The right control key is absolutely unacceptable. On the right there is a IMO totaly useless Capslock, at a place where the control key belongs. (I know I can switch that in software but still). The backspace key is a way too small. And the delete key is at a way to prominent place.

The second row has a odd placement. The 'X' belongs IMO right in the middle between 'S'  and 'D'.

But the thing i like the least about this keyboard is the first row. (I mean the one with the space bar). German layout heavily depends on a additional modifier, AltGr. Without that I can't access {[]}\~µ€@ (As the labeled keys, there are some more obsure like ſ (long s) or ø &c. ) And so it happens, that this keyboard, like all 60% add their own modifier usually call "FN" to access the F-Keys and the like. Both modifiers only operate on a limited number of keys, so having two seems inefficient. I think I found a better solution, more later.

Currently I often use a ThinkPad Edge, and really like the short spacebar. I can easily press the Windows, Alt, AltGr and Print key with my thumbs. (Print key is remapped to launch a Terminal). I like it that way and think the space bar is too long.


(http://www.thinkpads.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/lenovo_thinkpad_edge_13_keyboard.png)

What I designed so far

(http://i.imgur.com/Cp9WPGs.png) (http://imgur.com/Cp9WPGs)

So, this is my design so far.

• The shift key Is big enough.
• Control and FN keys are easily accessible.
• The backspace is big enough
• The Del key is too important to be left out, but i rarely use it.
• FN+1 is F1 key.
• FN+E sends the AltGr-E code, FN+u the AltGR-7 Code and so on. IMO a good way to merge two very commonly used modifiers into one.
• ? Get it's own key. Common, I very common.
• ß Is treated a real Charater. Shift-ß should produce a capital ß.
• Fn+hjkl Should vi like like courser keys.
• The rest is as usuall. If not noted otherwise Fn-Key should produce AltGr-Key.
• The modifier Keys are placed close the thumbs.
• There is a additional Modifier called "Sym". Maybe I should call i hyper. I don't know what to do with it. Because It's so hard to reach It should probably be sticky.

The space bar is split into two, because I like small space bars, but I'm afraid I won't get such a special thing, so I used two standard (Are they? I hope so) keys. Maybe the right key will become another Backspace or Controll or Mode Change key (I don't like vi, but maybe Alt-Tab?)

The space bar should also be able to get the Mathinas "Half-Keyboard" function. But I don't bother with that, it's a very long way to go.


I still don't like the first row's right side, but it's the best I could come up with. Cursor keys seems to redundant, But that's not too bad I guess. I thought about adding a transparent key adding a http://thingm.com/products/blink-1.html (http://thingm.com/products/blink-1.html) blink(1) -like indicator.

As I said above, I have plenty of keyboard I can harvest, but I will use the blue cherries.



So, now how to make a keyboard?

A PCB is out of reach for me. But I can rent a laser cutter. They do process acrylic (but no more than 5mm) and wood. I would really like aluminum, but I guess that is too expensive and I don't know such a service. I think I'd like wood and leather on top :), but I'm not decided yet. I saw several of these lasercutter templates here in the forum, but I haven't figured out how to create them, or how to use them. I'm very unskilled at CAD and I'm not sure about the spacing. I already did specify the exact size of the keys.

http://ne0.cc/laygen/#Esc%3A%3A1%20%201%3A%3A1%20%202%3A%3A1%20%203%3A%3A1%20%204%3A%3A1%20%205%3A%3A1%20%206%3A%3A1%20%207%3A%3A1%20%208%3A%3A1%20%209%3A%3A1%20%200%3A%3A1%20%20%DF%3A%3A1%20%20%3F%3A%3A1%20%20Backspace%3A%3A2%20%20%24%24%0ATab%3A%3A1.5%20%20Q%3A%3A1%20%20W%3A%3A1%20%20E%3A%3A1%20%20R%3A%3A1%20%20T%3A%3A1%20%20Z%20%3A%3A1%20%20U%3A%3A1%20%20I%3A%3A1%20%20O%3A%3A1%20%20P%3A%3A1%20%20%DC%3A%3A1%20%20+*%7E%3A%3A1%20%20%20%20%24%24%0ACtrl%3A%3A1.75%20%20A%3A%3A1%20%20S%3A%3A1%20%20D%3A%3A1%20%20F%3A%3A1%20%20G%3A%3A1%20%20H%3A%3A1%20%20J%3A%3A1%20%20K%3A%3A1%20%20L%3A%3A1%20%20%D6%3A%3A1%20%20%C4%3A%3A1%20%20%23%3A%3A1%20%20%20%24%24%0AShift%3A%3A1.25%20%20%3C%3E%7C%3A%3A1%20%20Y%3A%3A1%20%20X%3A%3A1%20%20C%3A%3A1%20%20V%3A%3A1%20%20B%3A%3A1%20%20N%3A%3A1%20%20M%3A%3A1%20%20%3B%2C%3A%3A1%20%20%3A.%3A%3A1%20%20-_%3A%3A1%20%20Shift%3A%3A1.75%20%20%20Del%3A%3A1%24%24%0AWin%3A%3A1.25%20%20Sym%3A%3A1%20%20Alt%3A%3A1%20%20FN%3A%3A1%20%20Space%3A%3A2.75%20%20Space2%20%3A%3A2%20%20Ctrl%3A%3A1%20%20FN%3A%3A1%20%20%3C-%3A%3A1%20%20V%3A%3A1%20%20%5E%3A%3A1%20%20-%3E%3A%3A1
 (http://ne0.cc/laygen/#Esc%3A%3A1%20%201%3A%3A1%20%202%3A%3A1%20%203%3A%3A1%20%204%3A%3A1%20%205%3A%3A1%20%206%3A%3A1%20%207%3A%3A1%20%208%3A%3A1%20%209%3A%3A1%20%200%3A%3A1%20%20%DF%3A%3A1%20%20%3F%3A%3A1%20%20Backspace%3A%3A2%20%20%24%24%0ATab%3A%3A1.5%20%20Q%3A%3A1%20%20W%3A%3A1%20%20E%3A%3A1%20%20R%3A%3A1%20%20T%3A%3A1%20%20Z%20%3A%3A1%20%20U%3A%3A1%20%20I%3A%3A1%20%20O%3A%3A1%20%20P%3A%3A1%20%20%DC%3A%3A1%20%20+*%7E%3A%3A1%20%20%20%20%24%24%0ACtrl%3A%3A1.75%20%20A%3A%3A1%20%20S%3A%3A1%20%20D%3A%3A1%20%20F%3A%3A1%20%20G%3A%3A1%20%20H%3A%3A1%20%20J%3A%3A1%20%20K%3A%3A1%20%20L%3A%3A1%20%20%D6%3A%3A1%20%20%C4%3A%3A1%20%20%23%3A%3A1%20%20%20%24%24%0AShift%3A%3A1.25%20%20%3C%3E%7C%3A%3A1%20%20Y%3A%3A1%20%20X%3A%3A1%20%20C%3A%3A1%20%20V%3A%3A1%20%20B%3A%3A1%20%20N%3A%3A1%20%20M%3A%3A1%20%20%3B%2C%3A%3A1%20%20%3A.%3A%3A1%20%20-_%3A%3A1%20%20Shift%3A%3A1.75%20%20%20Del%3A%3A1%24%24%0AWin%3A%3A1.25%20%20Sym%3A%3A1%20%20Alt%3A%3A1%20%20FN%3A%3A1%20%20Space%3A%3A2.75%20%20Space2%20%3A%3A2%20%20Ctrl%3A%3A1%20%20FN%3A%3A1%20%20%3C-%3A%3A1%20%20V%3A%3A1%20%20%5E%3A%3A1%20%20-%3E%3A%3A1)
 I need  VisiCut PLF files and I would be really thankful If somebody could help me with that.

I don't Know that kind of case I want to use, but I would be awesome if It could fit into one of these Poker Aluminum Cases. Not sure if i will ever own one of if this is even possible, though.

I hope you can help me with this project. I'm really looking forward for your feedback. Especially: What would you do with the right part of the first row?

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: agor on Tue, 10 September 2013, 04:51:32

You forgot about the Alt Graph Key, which you would need for writung \}][{|²³ etc

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: BlueBär on Tue, 10 September 2013, 05:31:52

OK as a fellow German I can understand your problems. I personally adjusted to a custom layout with ANSI enter.
What would like to see is a keyboard that has enough keys for an ISO layout but that still uses mostly standard keyaps + tsangan kit + ISO kit.

What do you think about something like this:

More

Code: [Select]

Esc::1  1::1  2::1  3::1  4::1  5::1  6::1  7::1  8<{::1  9([::1  0)]::1  ß}>::1  ?::1  Backspace::2  $$
Tab::1.5  Q::1  W::1  E::1  R::1  T::1  Z ::1  U::1  I::1  O::1  P::1  Ü::1  +*~::1    $$
Strg::1.75  A::1  S::1  D::1  F::1  G::1  H::1  J::1  K::1  L::1  Ö::1  Ä::1  #::1   $$
Shift::2.25  Y::1  X::1  C::1  V::1  B::1  N::1  M::1  ;,::1  :.::1  -_::1  Shift::1.75  Entf::1 $$
Fn::1.25  Win::1.25  AltGr::1.25  Leer::6.25  <-::1.25  V::1.25  ^::1.25  ->::1.25

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: Findecanor on Tue, 10 September 2013, 06:09:43

Quote from: agor on Tue, 10 September 2013, 04:51:32

You forgot about the Alt Graph Key, which you would need for writung \}][{|²³ etc

You obviously missed this:

Quote from: miko on Mon, 09 September 2013, 14:55:26

• FN+E sends the AltGr-E code, FN+u the AltGR-7 Code and so on. IMO a good way to merge two very commonly used modifiers into one.

I have previously thought a lot of using the left Alt key for this purpose.
Let Fn-Tab emit Alt-Tab instead, as that is the only thing I use it for. I am too used to the Alt Gr combos to change, and I also use many other combos than the ones that this layout supports.

However, to make Fn-Tab work properly as Alt-Tab, it needs to also support Alt-Shift Tab,  and holding Alt and repeatedly pressing Tab for traversing the tab "panel" menu.
In other words, pressing Fn-Tab would have to transform the Fn key into an Alt key until I release it.

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: agor on Tue, 10 September 2013, 07:09:27

Oh. Thanks for pointing it out. I wondered if he wanted to use Ctrl+Alt instead, which works too, but couldnt find it.
Alt+Tab should not be a problem, though, as he has a normal Alt key. It's just the AltGr which is missing.

Weren't there any plates like this offered for the GH60? Bottom Row would be difficult.

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: terran5992 on Tue, 10 September 2013, 07:10:56

The space bar looks real intresting

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: miko on Wed, 11 September 2013, 15:37:23

Quote from: BlueBär on Tue, 10 September 2013, 05:31:52

OK as a fellow German I can understand your problems. I personally adjusted to a custom layout with ANSI enter.
What would like to see is a keyboard that has enough keys for an ISO layout but that still uses mostly standard keyaps + tsangan kit + ISO kit.

What do you think about something like this:

More

Code: [Select]

Esc::1  1::1  2::1  3::1  4::1  5::1  6::1  7::1  8<{::1  9([::1  0)]::1  ß}>::1  ?::1  Backspace::2  $$
Tab::1.5  Q::1  W::1  E::1  R::1  T::1  Z ::1  U::1  I::1  O::1  P::1  Ü::1  +*~::1    $$
Strg::1.75  A::1  S::1  D::1  F::1  G::1  H::1  J::1  K::1  L::1  Ö::1  Ä::1  #::1   $$
Shift::2.25  Y::1  X::1  C::1  V::1  B::1  N::1  M::1  ;,::1  :.::1  -_::1  Shift::1.75  Entf::1 $$
Fn::1.25  Win::1.25  AltGr::1.25  Leer::6.25  <-::1.25  V::1.25  ^::1.25  ->::1.25

I can't use my thumbs for modifiers.  :( No I think the space bar is a way too long.

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: miko on Wed, 11 September 2013, 16:14:07

Quote from: terran5992 on Tue, 10 September 2013, 07:10:56

The space bar looks real intresting

I think the best use of the right spacebar would be backspace. I really like the idear to use my thumbs more, but I'm not sure how exactly this should look like.

Title: Re: A new Design for a German/ISO 60% Keyboard.
Post by: BlueBär on Wed, 11 September 2013, 16:54:17

Quote from: miko on Wed, 11 September 2013, 15:37:23

I can't use my thumbs for modifiers.  :( No I think the space bar is a way too long.

Really? Because that's the standard size.