geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Nek on Wed, 11 September 2013, 19:21:44
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I am a web developer and I am typing for 20+ years. I havent considered my keyboard seriously until now and after a little search on the net I got flooded by information about keyboards and gotten confused.
I read up about mechanical keyboards which I remember from the old days that were excellent and I miss them now. So i am out to buy a good mechanical one for my coding.
I read about the Das Keyboard S and about some models from Filco. I also read about the various cherry switches and I am torn between the blue and the brown ones, but frankly the only way I can ever make a choice is if I can use them for real. But because there are no such keyboards on demo here in my country, I can only do the second best thing, ask for your recommendations which I feel you are the experts on this subject.
So, can someone recommend me a good mechanical keyboard that will appeal to a programmer like me and be better than the crap el cheapo keyboards that I have right now? Which one do you think is the most popular among programmers/typists? and are the blue switches better than browns or vice versa?
Thanks in advance for your help.
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If you don't mind the sound go for blue...If you're using it in an environment where others are around...I'd probably go browns..
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For the switches, there is no "better" switch. They all have different characteristics. The main characteristics for switches are:
Force of actuation
Click (sound)
Bump (tactile feedback)
The other main thing to consider is the layout. Usually, less keys = more place for mouse, but it is up to you to decide which are "required" for you
In the end, there's a lot of choice, some are more sturdy, plate mounted, etc. So I would first decide the kind of switch you would prefer and your best layout, then look at the options.
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skip cherry mx unless you are interested in collecting/ricer modding
IBM model M if you like the classics (tactile NMB is very nice too). topre if you want to try something a little different. hhkb if you want the perfect keyboard.
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skip cherry mx unless you are interested in collecting/ricer modding
IBM model M if you like the classics (tactile NMB is very nice too). topre if you want to try something a little different. hhkb if you want the perfect keyboard.
ITYM 55g realforce 87U if you want the perfect keyboard ;) I code on a silenced one at work.
If you're looking at the classics, complicated clicky alps are quite nice as well, IMO. (I've used ones with blue stems, the white-stemmed ones might? be identical. The simplified ones feel a little weird to me, kind of bumpy, though)
I honestly really like cherry blacks for day-to-day typing too, though, so my tastes might be weird.
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skip cherry mx unless you are interested in collecting/ricer modding
IBM model M if you like the classics (tactile NMB is very nice too). topre if you want to try something a little different. hhkb if you want the perfect keyboard.
hhkb? never heard of that. its the first time I see someone saying to avoid cherry mx, why? As for model M, I am not interest, its very bulky for my tastes.
For the switches, there is no "better" switch. They all have different characteristics. The main characteristics for switches are:
Force of actuation
Click (sound)
Bump (tactile feedback)
The other main thing to consider is the layout. Usually, less keys = more place for mouse, but it is up to you to decide which are "required" for you
In the end, there's a lot of choice, some are more sturdy, plate mounted, etc. So I would first decide the kind of switch you would prefer and your best layout, then look at the options.
I am leaning torwards the blue one and as for layout I want it to be strictly default and full size. no extra keys, no extra media keys, no fn key and ofcourse the return key must be the big old one and the navigation rows must be the old three columns type. I would like it to be as compact as possible with not fancy margin around it. In simple words, as plain as possible but with high quality typing, as this is the most important thing for me above all else.
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I was going to say just get an HHKB (Happy Hacking Keyboard)
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skip cherry mx unless you are interested in collecting/ricer modding
IBM model M if you like the classics (tactile NMB is very nice too). topre if you want to try something a little different. hhkb if you want the perfect keyboard.
hhkb? never heard of that. its the first time I see someone saying to avoid cherry mx, why? As for model M, I am not interest, its very bulky for my tastes.
For the switches, there is no "better" switch. They all have different characteristics. The main characteristics for switches are:
Force of actuation
Click (sound)
Bump (tactile feedback)
The other main thing to consider is the layout. Usually, less keys = more place for mouse, but it is up to you to decide which are "required" for you
In the end, there's a lot of choice, some are more sturdy, plate mounted, etc. So I would first decide the kind of switch you would prefer and your best layout, then look at the options.
I am leaning torwards the blue one and as for layout I want it to be strictly default and full size. no extra keys, no extra media keys, no fn key and ofcourse the return key must be the big old one and the navigation rows must be the old three columns type. I would like it to be as compact as possible with not fancy margin around it. In simple words, as plain as possible but with high quality typing, as this is the most important thing for me above all else.
well appearance is important but i'd caution you to be more aware of the switch feel and whether or not you can stand to hear the keyboard more than the look of it.
i recommend model M to everybody because it's a great board, much higher quality than any cherry MX board, and it's clicky which a lot of people (myself included) like. the tactility is much better than MX blue as well.
cherry switches are very loose with lots of wiggling, generally newer keyboards made with them that are mass produced are of 'just-ok' quality. leopold and filco are good cherry boards, as well as the CM Storm, but it is an ugly thing.
if you want the simplest, plainest, most compact with the highest quality, though, just get an HHKB. the price is high compared to others but it is worth it... nearly everybody who owns a hhkb on this forum will attest to that. you will almost certainly get used to the layout; in fact if you're like a lot of people, you will grow to dislike standard ANSI layouts once you become accustomed to it.
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Unicomp buckling spring boards are nice modern versions of the Model M, and they have models with smaller cases, but full 104 layouts.
I'm a programmer as well, and for text editing I prefer having a traditional ANSI layout with easy to reach for arrow keys (not under a function layer), so a 60% board like the Happy Hacker KB isn't for me, but you'll hear a lot of recommendations of them since they are very popular here.
Best thing would be to try various boards and see what you like best.
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I'm a programmer as well, and for text editing I prefer having a traditional ANSI layout with easy to reach for arrow keys (not under a function layer), so a 60% board like the Happy Hacker KB isn't for me, but you'll hear a lot of recommendations of them since they are very popular here.
this, just for the record, is pretty much the only gripe that most people have with HHKB (other than whether they like or dislike topre switches and the fact that it is not programmable).
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But then it depends on what OS and tools you use. Programming on Unix and using vi or similar you can get by completely without arrow keys.
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Thank you all for your help. I have now narrowed down my search to Filco Majestouch 2 Full size Blue mx (http://"http://www.amazon.co.uk/Filco-Majestouch-2-Click-Action-Keyboard/dp/B004Z0OS8G/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1378986771&sr=8-8&keywords=filco+majestouch+2+usa").
What is your opinion about it? Quality? Feeling? Is it considered one of the best?
And last but not least, I am still worried about my choice in blue switches. Are they that much louder? In a quiet setting in the night would they be very loud and unbearable, even for me who does the typing?
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Thank you all for your help. I have now narrowed down my search to Filco Majestouch 2 Full size Blue mx (http://"http://www.amazon.co.uk/Filco-Majestouch-2-Click-Action-Keyboard/dp/B004Z0OS8G/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1378986771&sr=8-8&keywords=filco+majestouch+2+usa").
What is your opinion about it? Quality? Feeling? Is it considered one of the best?
And last but not least, I am still worried about my choice in blue switches. Are they that much louder? In a quiet setting in the night would they be very loud and unbearable, even for me who does the typing?
Of all the stock keyboards, this has been my favorite one. I use it at work as my daily driver. I never had any clicky switches (MX White, Green, Blue, Buckling Spring) bother me. But you might want to look up some YouTube videos and judge for yourself. I'm a fan of this video from WASDKeyboards (http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/videos):
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it will take time if you will pick hhkb to use to it, my co-worker is using one, i did try for one day and as a system admin i was missing few keys. I know that u can program/bind and all that but since you are doing for 20 years might be tricky. Currently using only ANSI from time to time missing huge enter key (it was also reason to get all my keyboard in "one line"). It's all about feedback which u want, but in work i'm using green cherry and from time to time switching to blue cherry. But since couple of guys in my work are using also mechkeyboard they are never b***hing about noise;) (rest of ppl - well i don't care about them:)). Again if i would have spare ibm model m i would use in work. The one in my house is too precious.....
to summarize : go with blue cherry best switch for me for work (and ecstasy:P).
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HHKB is a very intersting keyboard and I will definitely have it in the back of my mind for the future, but for now it is something that I will not consider as I just want to get a mechanical replacement for my keyboard and don't want to change my habits at the same time. I'm afraid it will be too much of a change and maybe I will regret it.
So now that I have chosen the Filco, I need a little reaffirmation about it from you guys, as I found it for 210-220$ and it will be a somewhat expensive purchase for me.
Can you tell if you would prefer it for typing, against these keyboards below, and why?
Das Keyboard
Ducky equivalent
CM Storm blue
Cherry G80
Or maybe should I try my luck with other cheap alternatives like Monoprice which is at 50-80$ instead?
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I would say since you have been programming for 20+ years your typing habits are very well concrete, I say first mech keyboard start with what you know and go for the filco...but once you start using mechanicals again you will be tempted into smaller and smaller boards and if that happens go with a HHKB or a custom board that you can program every key to your liking.(if you dont want the HHKB).
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As somebody who's been programming full time for almost as long (15 years), the Filco is a really, really strong first choice. Personally, after trying more boards than I care to count I would suggest going with the 55g RealForce 87U (still my favorite TKL board by far). The action is super smooth yet still very tactile, and the bottom out feeling of Topre will save your fingers some where and tear.
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I'm a programmer as well, and for text editing I prefer having a traditional ANSI layout with easy to reach for arrow keys (not under a function layer), so a 60% board like the Happy Hacker KB isn't for me, but you'll hear a lot of recommendations of them since they are very popular here.
this, just for the record, is pretty much the only gripe that most people have with HHKB (other than whether they like or dislike topre switches and the fact that it is not programmable).
It's somewhat more a Unix layout like Sun would put on their keyboards though with the \| in a particularly odd location compared to the Type 5 I have at home. I'm not a huge fan of the HHKB layout as a Unix admin. It's geared toward developers and I can see why.
I'd probably just find a nice Realforce once I get around to trying out a Topre-based keyboard.
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I'm a programmer as well, and for text editing I prefer having a traditional ANSI layout with easy to reach for arrow keys
Clearly, your don't use EMACS or VIM ;)
hjkl movement master race
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MX browns. Trust me. I use Leopold FC200R.
Realforce is also very good. Elitekeyboards.com
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I'm a programmer as well, and for text editing I prefer having a traditional ANSI layout with easy to reach for arrow keys
Clearly, your don't use EMACS or VIM ;)
hjkl movement master race
Honestly for VIM I'm not sure what the HHKB advantage is other than the Esc key being closer by being on the number row instead of the function row. For Emacs, the Ctrl is in another location but I tend to find it a bit uncomfortable in comparison to the regular spot. I admit I mostly just use set -o emacs at the CLI more than I actually edit in Emacs so I may not be experiencing the joy of the remapped Ctrl key.
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IMO, there is no better switch for typing than buckling spring. I think that blues are too light.
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As much as I like Vim, I think Notepad++ is the best programmer's text editor.
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As much as I like Vim, I think Notepad++ is the best programmer's text editor.
What makes you say that?
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^this. Reeeeall curious
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I just watched this review in the wild:
And I got confused about the Filco, does the space bar really rattles if you touch it without pressing it? If this is the case then it is completely unacceptable for me. My el cheapo rubber dome keyboards rattle this way and I hate it, I will not buy something that expensive that also rattles like them. Can other owners of Filco Majestouch 2 confirm this?
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IMO, there is no better switch for typing than buckling spring. I think that blues are too light.
Funny thing with buckling versus blues. I prefer reds for typing, blacks and browns second. That said, I much prefer buckling springs to blues. I'm faster on BS over blues which probably helps the preference.
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As much as I like Vim, I think Notepad++ is the best programmer's text editor.
What makes you say that?
It's open source, packed with modern features, and easy to use. I go faster on Notepad++ than anything else.
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The problem with VIM is it isn't useful without lots of experience, and knowledge of its tricks. When you have a text editor that you can buy multiple books about, you know things aren't simple.
Notepad++ is cool, but, only useful for the Windows crowd.
In the '90s, I used to really like Super Notetab. Newer versions I liked less, and never really found something I liked as well.
I'm mostly using Gedit right now, but been toying with other stuff.
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As much as I like Vim, I think Notepad++ is the best programmer's text editor.
What makes you say that?
It's open source, packed with modern features, and easy to use. I go faster on Notepad++ than anything else.
Replace 'Notepad++' with 'Emacs' and I completely agree with you.
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I very strongly recommend the HHKB, the layout is super efficient, the sound is unmatched and it will last you a good long while.
Kangaroo~
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
same
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
it takes the same number of hands... one extra finger... maybe half a calorie... and typing ctrl-left on anything doesn't sound like fun, it sounds like work.
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
Why use two keys for that motion when in vim you just need one?
Notepad++/Sublime/TextMate are for the kiddie table.
You want real power in a text editor, come join us at the big kids table. It may require some discipline and learning, but any professional tool will require the same.
(Aaaaaaaaand that exhausts my trolling fuel tank for the week)
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
I really cant tell if this is a troll
Are you serious? Really so lazy an extra key takes that much of a toll on you?
The HHKB has the most genius arrow key layout for web developers.
I honestly prefer it to the dedicated ones on my 660C.
Kangaroo~
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I just can't imagine trying to program without dedicated direction keys (arrows/pgup/pgdn/home/end). Typing ctrl-left on the hhkb doesn't sound like fun
I really cant tell if this is a troll
Are you serious? Really so lazy an extra key takes that much of a toll on you?
The HHKB has the most genius arrow key layout for web developers.
I honestly prefer it to the dedicated ones on my 660C.
Kangaroo~
I found that the problem is muscle memory - I am far too used to reaching over to the right of the keyboard for the upside down T of arrow keys to navigate. Having a staggered layout in the middle right of the main keyboard, used in conjunction with the Fn key, just makes things that little bit more difficult.
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Enough with the HHKB already. It's the best, but thats another topic.
What about my question about the Filco? Anybody?
I just watched this review in the wild:
And I got confused about the Filco, does the space bar really rattles if you touch it without pressing it? If this is the case then it is completely unacceptable for me. My el cheapo rubber dome keyboards rattle this way and I hate it, I will not buy something that expensive that also rattles like them. Can other owners of Filco Majestouch 2 confirm this?
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Every board with costar stabilizers I've ever owned had slightly rattle-y space bars. That doesn't mean it's poorly made. It's just the nature of the beast.
A $5 tube of lithium grease and a toothpick will fix it right up (as well as the shifts, enter, and backspace keys)
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I found that the problem is muscle memory - I am far too used to reaching over to the right of the keyboard for the upside down T of arrow keys to navigate. Having a staggered layout in the middle right of the main keyboard, used in conjunction with the Fn key, just makes things that little bit more difficult.
That's my issue too, and why I am hesitant to go to a 60%. I've had my laptop for a year and a half, and I just now got used to the half height up and down centered arrows.
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I found that the problem is muscle memory - I am far too used to reaching over to the right of the keyboard for the upside down T of arrow keys to navigate. Having a staggered layout in the middle right of the main keyboard, used in conjunction with the Fn key, just makes things that little bit more difficult.
That's my issue too, and why I am hesitant to go to a 60%. I've had my laptop for a year and a half, and I just now got used to the half height up and down centered arrows.
And another problem for me is that I switch between keyboards a bit - HHKB at work (instead of a Model M) and KeyCool 87 at work. The HHKB is nice, but I actually end up typing more at work, so it is taking me longer to get accustomed to the HHKB layout, and just as the light starts to shine through after a long weekend of typing, I go back to work Monday morning to a more conventional TKL layout.
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I'd recommend an ergo keyboard, I use the TECK/Truly Ergonomic. You can also look at the Kinesis Advantage but it's more expensive and not as good a keyboard IMO.
I program all day and this is the best keyboard I've ever found for the purpose, just as good for gaming too. I wouldn't recommend Blue's though, they'll drive you crazy eventually. I've been typing on Browns for 15 years and wouldn't do it any other way. For general usage that is, when I game I use a TECK Cherry Red.
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I am looking at a Ducky Zero 2108 (http://"http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info/Ducky-DK2108-Zero-Mechanical-Keyboard-Blue-Cherry-Switch-UK-Layout_36415.html")(not shine) and it is very inexpensive compared to the filco. The ducky will cost me around 120$ and the filco 220$.
Considering that I use very cheap rubberdomes, is the difference with filco that great or the ducky is satisfying enough for someone who comes from rubberdomes?
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Nothing wrong with a Ducky Zero, great entry level mechanical keyboard...
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I am looking at a Ducky Zero 2108 (http://"http://www.thecoolingshop.com/product_info/Ducky-DK2108-Zero-Mechanical-Keyboard-Blue-Cherry-Switch-UK-Layout_36415.html")(not shine) and it is very inexpensive compared to the filco. The ducky will cost me around 120$ and the filco 220$.
Considering that I use very cheap rubberdomes, is the difference with filco that great or the ducky is satisfying enough for someone who comes from rubberdomes?
To a certain extent it will depend on what type of switch you get.
MX reds are said to be the closest to rubber dome in that they are light and linear. But if you spend a moment and actually feel the switches as you press the keys, the difference will be huge. The other MX switch types are further removed from rubber dome.
Ducky is a great brand, and the Shine Zero is a no frills entry level mechanical keyboard. It has standard layout too, making key cap replacement easier.
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The problem with VIM is it isn't useful without lots of experience, and knowledge of its tricks. When you have a text editor that you can buy multiple books about, you know things aren't simple.
Notepad++ is cool, but, only useful for the Windows crowd.
In the '90s, I used to really like Super Notetab. Newer versions I liked less, and never really found something I liked as well.
I'm mostly using Gedit right now, but been toying with other stuff.
vim can become useful to you in a matter of hours. It took me a couple of days to be _completely comfortable_ with hjkl movement and basic hotkeys like
-$ to go to end of line
-^ to go to beginning of line
-/ for searching the file
-w for moving forward a "word" (i.e. block of text as separated by delimiters), and b for moving backward
-## to go to a line
-regex search and replace (<- caveat is that I had experience with regexes. uncaveat is that every search and replace uses regexes...)
-yank and paste
+ a few more I'm sure
They aren't tricks. The entire point of vim is to use hotkeys. It's not like it's a text editor and "oh yeah, you can use these cool hotkey tricks I added". It was built from the ground up with that intention.
You don't need textbooks to use vim. You will probably get everything you need via search engine queries like "how do i do [foo] in vim?". If you end up hacking .vim config files then you may need help at the IRC channel, but the documentation is actually amazing with great examples.
If you are going to code for a living, please dear god do not use editors without learning some hotkeys. Even if it's not vim, you should at least memorize hotkeys for things you do _on a minute basis_ while you are coding. It is beyond stupid watching someone spend 30 seconds typing something which you could do in <5... using only basic basic basic hotkeys (nothing special like "VS code snippets")
@OP I agree that HHKB is a silly recommendation for your first mechanical kb since it requires you to change your typing habits. If you could only buy one. Ever. Then maybe the leap is worth it. But I would say any decently made board would suit you. Mostly everyone is happy with browns and blues for typing. The youtube videos already posted give you a good indication of sound.
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For programming navigation is the most frequent thing you will do. Continually putting the insertion point somewhere.
The second is switching between applications and using a small set of shortcuts. Unfortunately they vary between different IDE's.
- Find file in solution
- Jump to function
- Jump to definition
- Switch Application
- Navigate by letter, word, sentence, page and file
- Build and debug functions
A keyboard that supports those in a good way will get you where you want to go quickest.
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Finally I ordered a Filco Majestouch 2 full size us layout with blue switches from thekeyboardco.
The ducky was a very tempting choice but it turned out that I couldn't find one with a USA (ANSI) layout. And also I would always have it in the back of my mind, that I bought the ducky only for the price, but I really wanted the Filco. And as I don't like to make compromises with my work "tools", just because I didn't get my first choice I know I will not be 100% satisfied. That means that some time in the future, I would compel myself enough and buy a Filco. So why not get the Filco first after all?
The final cost was steep, my order with shipping ended up at 250$ with a key puller plus a packet of o-rings. I hope it will worth it. Thanks all for your great help. I'll write my impressions when I'll have it in my hands.
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The HHP2 or the IBM Model M are both beautiful keyboards to type on. I recommend you to buy one of them!
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Finally I ordered a Filco Majestouch 2 full size us layout with blue switches from thekeyboardco.
The ducky was a very tempting choice but it turned out that I couldn't find one with a USA (ANSI) layout. And also I would always have it in the back of my mind, that I bought the ducky only for the price, but I really wanted the Filco. And as I don't like to make compromises with my work "tools", just because I didn't get my first choice I know I will not be 100% satisfied. That means that some time in the future, I would compel myself enough and buy a Filco. So why not get the Filco first after all?
The final cost was steep, my order with shipping ended up at 250$ with a key puller plus a packet of o-rings. I hope it will worth it. Thanks all for your great help. I'll write my impressions when I'll have it in my hands.
$250? i think you got ripped off...
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$250? i think you got ripped off...
as i said its with shipping plus keypuller and a packet of orings. but still its very expensive...
and as for the hhkb talk, i really dont get it at all. first of all the double function keys idea is as old as computing itself, even as the first typewriter really, it is called shifting (and or macros) and you can even program in software any keyboard to do that, you dont need hhkb. vim is most famous for this for decades now. you can also find topre switches in many other keyboards as well. form factor? well a 60% keyboard would be enough, as for build quality? any 60% quality built keyboard would be fine. i just smell overhype here and nothing else...
also the big problem with hhkb (and everything that derives from the de facto standard, not matter how effective or optimized it is) is that it is an arbitrary and rare layout which you have to learn, and if you do learn it then each time you will need to use a standard layout it will be annoying, counterproductive and will underpin your performance and that puts you in a disadvantage. Needing to use a, other than your own, keyboard is a situation which a professional encounters all the time.
there is a reason why qwerty is so popular, it isnt about its optimization nor its effectiveness nor its clever design, it is only because it's the one that everybody else have learnt and use. that is almost impossible to change now.
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$250? i think you got ripped off...
as i said its with shipping plus keypuller and a packet of orings. but still its very expensive...
and as for the hhkb talk, i really dont get it at all. first of all the double function keys idea is as old as computing itself, even as the first typewriter really, it is called shifting (and or macros) and you can even program in software any keyboard to do that, you dont need hhkb. vim is most famous for this for decades now. you can also find topre switches in many other keyboards as well. form factor? well a 60% keyboard would be enough, as for build quality? any 60% quality built keyboard would be fine. i just smell overhype here and nothing else...
also the big problem with hhkb (and everything that derives from the de facto standard, not matter how effective or optimized it is) is that it is an arbitrary and rare layout which you have to learn, and if you do learn it then each time you will need to use a standard layout it will be annoying, counterproductive and will underpin your performance and that puts you in a disadvantage. Needing to use a, other than your own, keyboard is a situation which a professional encounters all the time.
there is a reason why qwerty is so popular, it isnt about its optimization nor its effectiveness nor its clever design, it is only because it's the one that everybody else have learnt and use. that is almost impossible to change now.
hey dude why would you join an online community, ask for advice, ignore all of that advice, spend way too much on a board that nobody recommended in the first place? the filco is great... but...
you overpaid by about a hundred bucks
keypullers are a dime a dozen
you can get o rings on eBay for pennies on the dollar
...all of which you could have learned had you simply asked some questions and listened to the advice of the community.
and then the one board that lots of people have recommended, because they use it daily for hours and hours, you **** on because of some supposed hype and because it has a layout based on a classic keyboard and designed by a legend in japanese computing?
i've spent probably close to way over two thousand dollars on this ****, and that is not that much compared to some many here. i've tried pretty much every cherry switch there is, and a few topre variants, and lots of other older stuff too. if i could give back all that experience and just start with a hhkb, i would, as would may others here, because we like the ****ing keyboard, not because other people told us we liked it.
for the record i use a hhkb every day at work, and i switch back to a macbook chiclet keyboard on my home laptop. most regulars here switch boards ALL THE TIME, multiple times a day.
please stop projecting your insecurities on us.
enjoy your keyboard.
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Any good board should work for programming. My favorites are BS, blues (haven't tried greens), and the good old HHKB. Love the layout.
sth, how do you tolerate the chicklet keyboard at home? I typically use my HHKB for such situations these days. I just throw it right on top of my laptop keyboard.
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Any good board should work for programming. My favorites are BS, blues (haven't tried greens), and the good old HHKB. Love the layout.
sth, how do you tolerate the chicklet keyboard at home? I typically use my HHKB for such situations these days. I just throw it right on top of my laptop keyboard.
i dont cart my keyboard around. the chiclet works fine... i don't use my computer at home nearly as much as i do at work, and when im actually spending a lot of time on it it's either in photoshop or reason, neither of which make much repetitive use of the keyboard. that and i hardly ever use it on a desk so an extra keyboard would just get in the way.
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hey dude why would you join an online community, ask for advice, ignore all of that advice, spend way too much on a board that nobody recommended in the first place? the filco is great... but...
you overpaid by about a hundred bucks
keypullers are a dime a dozen
you can get o rings on eBay for pennies on the dollar
...all of which you could have learned had you simply asked some questions and listened to the advice of the community.
Believe it or not, but that's the best price I could find it online. I live in Greece and I have to order from a EU country or else I run the risk of getting hold on customs and have to pay import taxes, which costs are in the sole discretion of the custom officer and can easily end up doubling the cost of the product. Also it can take up to a month to clear, not to mention the trips that I may have to take to the custom office of the airport/port.
Thekeyboardco is an official retailer that ships to Greece and has it in stock for 120 british pounds (inc. sales tax), which with paypal conversion comes out at ~210$, the rest (40$) is for the shipping and the other stuff. I could not find a better price for it, some were even more expensive.
If there is a better and cheaper way, then noone bothered to help me out. Maybe that's because you hijacked my thread with the HHKB which I specifically said that I am not interested to buy it.
and then the one board that lots of people have recommended, because they use it daily for hours and hours, you **** on because of some supposed hype and because it has a layout based on a classic keyboard and designed by a legend in japanese computing?
i've spent probably close to way over two thousand dollars on this ****, and that is not that much compared to some many here. i've tried pretty much every cherry switch there is, and a few topre variants, and lots of other older stuff too. if i could give back all that experience and just start with a hhkb, i would, as would may others here, because we like the ****ing keyboard, not because other people told us we liked it.
for the record i use a hhkb every day at work, and i switch back to a macbook chiclet keyboard on my home laptop. most regulars here switch boards ALL THE TIME, multiple times a day.
please stop projecting your insecurities on us.
enjoy your keyboard.
Don't get the wrong idea, I didn't bash the HHKB. I happen to like it and i stated before that I find it very interesting. I raised my carefully thought out concerns about it, because you hijacked my thread and derailed the whole conversation for it. And all these points that I made, are especially true when its outrageous price is hovering at 300+ british pounds (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Hacking-Keyboard-Professional2-WINDOWS-PD-KB400W/dp/B000EXZ0V2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1379337428&sr=8-1&keywords=hhkb"), which translates to ~500$ without shipping.
With that kind of price, it better cook me dinner, make me coffee and sing a song.
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Ελλάδα ρε φίλε!!! οεοεοεοεοε :Ρ
Totally offtopic: I think we Greeks should make group buys or something, it's probably cheaper for one guy to purchase 2-3 keyboards and then send them to the others, than each of the people buy their own... Shipping costs-wise...
Kinda on-topic: I've started to believe that keyboards such as the HHK or the Topre compacts are really suitable for programming, I wrote some HTML the other day on Sublime and because of its brilliant auto-completion, I just had to press the arrows to move a bit and write my own stuff. In a normal keyboard, you have to move your hand for a single press of the arrow keys, while on a HHK or compact Topre you hardly move your fingers.
Price is really steep though and we have no way of testing such keyboard ourselves prior to buying it, definitely a risk nonetheless.
On-topic: The price Nek mentions seems about right. The keyboard costs ~100 british pounds, with the shipping costs goes to ~134 which is about 215USD. Add the other stuff he got and it's 250USD.
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I don't want this to turn into an HHKB hater thread, but the 'you don't have to move your hands' thing is not really worth it. I can stretch my left pinky over to the arrow keys without moving that much. Frankly, I don't think that that TINY saving in movement is worth ~$200 dollars more than a normal TKL.
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Ελλάδα ρε φίλε!!! οεοεοεοεοε :Ρ
Έλα ρε φίλε, ναι ελλάδαρα! :D
Totally offtopic: I think we Greeks should make group buys or something, it's probably cheaper for one guy to purchase 2-3 keyboards and then send them to the others, than each of the people buy their own... Shipping costs-wise...
Well yes that would be ideal, but I have no idea how many we are in this forum to warrant a group buy.
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I am a programmer. I have used browns, blues and reds.
My favourite switch is an MX brown, but that is my personal preference.
I thought I liked blues until i used them everyday. The main thing that bothered me is that the actuation point on the way down on blues is not consistent with where it releases on the way back up. This means that you can type multiple instances of the same character with the key between the tactile bump and the bottom of the key stroke. This was most noticeable when typing two of the same characters next to each other (eg: '', "", [], etc..). I added an o-ring mod and this helped this a bit. After working on my browns at home, the weight of the blue key presses really bothered me.
I changed from a blue switch keyboard at work to a red switch keyboard. Since I am used to typing on browns, I found the reds relatively easy to switch to. They are quite a bit lighter weight than even the browns, so it is a small adjustment. I am enjoying the reds and do not have typo issues with them (anymore). When other people try to use my keyboard they often have typos though because it is must more sensitive than they are used to (rubber domes OP).
I spend all day every day on my keyboards, so the lighter weight key press is nice for me because I end up having less hand fatigue at the end of the day.
I would recommend browns or a linear switch to match the key pressure you like, but that is obviously only my opinion from my limited experience.
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I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps
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Everyone is recommending something something different - this happens every time :))
Really it breaks down to:
Size: full size, TKL or 60% (depending on whether you need numpad, arrow/function key, or have limited desk space).
Switch: heavy, light, linear or tactile.
Backlighting: yes/no.
That's pretty much it. And no-one can really tell you what you prefer - you have to try a few keyboards before you find one or two that you really like.
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well appearance is important but i'd caution you to be more aware of the switch feel and whether or not you can stand to hear the keyboard more than the look of it.
i recommend model M to everybody because it's a great board, much higher quality than any cherry MX board, and it's clicky which a lot of people (myself included) like. the tactility is much better than MX blue as well.
cherry switches are very loose with lots of wiggling, generally newer keyboards made with them that are mass produced are of 'just-ok' quality. leopold and filco are good cherry boards, as well as the CM Storm, but it is an ugly thing.
The trolls come out at night. They come onto a keyboard forum, bash on the keyboards of everyone else, and insist that all other modern keyboards are worse. CIP, the Model M is hardly built well, just massively. A modern board would be easily as durable if it was that heavy. It's very bulky, all plastic with no rubber feet and uses PS/2 which may cause compatibility issues depending on if OP uses a desk/laptop. Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality and ability. Of course, the Model M might be more durable, but that's the extra pounds. The reason that keyboards aren't as durable, or as you misrepresent, worse-made, is because almost nobody would want a ten-pound brick on their desk when a one-two pound, well made, sturdy mechanical or even RD keyboard would be better and cheaper to replace than to buy an IBM.
By being so intolerant of others and forcing your opinions onto us, you make people dislike the Model M. I admire the great feel it is supposed to have and would be very eager to acquire a Unicomp, but bashing on everything else falsely when you can't even spell and type correctly on your wonderful keyboard is hypocritical.
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I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps
Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?
And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps. I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it. If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless. I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them. (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF? and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)
I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on. It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.
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I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps
Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?
And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps. I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it. If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless. I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them. (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF? and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)
I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on. It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.
I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard. It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case. They were screaming for lube!
I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet. But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard. If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior. Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.
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the Model M is hardly built well
[...]
Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality
what r u smoking and where can i get some
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the Model M is hardly built well
[...]
Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality
what r u smoking and where can i get some
Maybe he means Unicomp
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I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps
Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?
And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps. I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it. If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless. I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them. (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF? and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)
I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on. It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.
I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard. It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case. They were screaming for lube!
I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet. But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard. If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior. Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.
I had one for a while, couldn't use it on a PC as the lag through the ADB to USB converter drove me ape****. I don't have that problem with PS/2 to USB converters though for some reason.
Actually did I sell it to you? I am pretty sure I sold you something, but I don't remember what.
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I'd recommend a Dell AT101W outfitted with Matias Quiet Pro Alps
Why not just buy a Quiet Pro?
And yes, my current favorite keyboard for typing is my old SGI Granite with the cream dampened Alps. I've tried a LOT and if I could only keep one keyboard out of the lot that would be it. If I needed to only have one keyboard period I'd probably sell 'em all and buy a Quiet Pro because the Granite is winkeyless. I don't *like* windows keys - or windows - but sometimes you need them. (the latest version of Ubuntu requires them for gnome throwback, WTF? and you have to use it, because Unity sucks.)
I see the OP already bought a filco w/ blues, that should be a good board, but a) quietness was important to me hence the Granite and b) After extensively using both, I think I prefer the better tactile feel of the creams, even given that they're impossible to not bottom out on. It doesn't seem to be a problem ergonomically to bottom out as it's not hard when you do so like most other boards, you actually land on the dampeners not the hard plastic bottom of the switch.
I had a SGI Granite and maybe it was just my example but it had the most dry sounding switches I've ever heard in a keyboard. It's very difficult to articulate how dry they sounded because first you imagine rubbing sliders and that's not the case. They were screaming for lube!
I would skip out on the Quiet Pro for the same reasons as the DAS: it's a finger print and fine scratch magnet. But more than that the case material feels extremely cheap for a $140+ keyboard. If you're a PC user you can't even get the lesser offensive Silver exterior. Sure you can pick up the Silver/Mac version but if you're going to do that I'd rather have a Apple Extended 2.
I had one for a while, couldn't use it on a PC as the lag through the ADB to USB converter drove me ape****. I don't have that problem with PS/2 to USB converters though for some reason.
Actually did I sell it to you? I am pretty sure I sold you something, but I don't remember what.
You sold me a AT101W :D
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the Model M is hardly built well
[...]
Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality
what r u smoking and where can i get some
Maybe he means Unicomp
That would make more sense.
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the Model M is hardly built well
[...]
Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality
what r u smoking and where can i get some
Maybe he means Unicomp
That would make more sense.
that or refering to the rivets used to hold the Ms together. once those pop the only way to make it sturdy again is to bolt mod it... an arcane, nearly-lost art after the advent of cherry mx modding/customs.
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the Model M is hardly built well
[...]
Many mechanical keyboards, such as the Topre, Filco, Leopold, Corsair, CM to just name a few, are built with more quality
what r u smoking and where can i get some
Maybe he means Unicomp
That would make more sense.
that or refering to the rivets used to hold the Ms together. once those pop the only way to make it sturdy again is to bolt mod it... an arcane, nearly-lost art after the advent of cherry mx modding/customs.
That's not a lost art, it's a rite of manhood,
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Sorry, did indeed mean the Unicomp, didn't mean to lump it with the actual Model M. But even so, the Model M really isn't all that. Again, bulk = resistance to damage. And I would stand to say that a Leopold, Das, and Topre are all built better than the IBM.
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But even so, the Model M really isn't all that. Again, bulk = resistance to damage. And I would stand to say that a Leopold, Das, and Topre are all built better than the IBM.
LOL
Come at me, bro!
You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.
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LOL
Come at me, bro!
You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.
Just wait while I strap a few extra pounds of metal plate to it to make the weight even. :thumb:
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LOL
Come at me, bro!
You take your RealForce, Das or Leapold and I'll take my Model M, we'll smash them together swordfight style, and let's see who comes out on top. And I'll be nice and NOT require the contending board to be 25 years old.
Just wait while I strap a few extra pounds of metal plate to it to make the weight even. :thumb:
ok
Weight != Strength
The Model M is sturdy because it's really well constructed. It's got a MEGA thick PBT case, practically indestructible switches, all built around a thick plate of steel. Not to mention that the only pcb is the small controller board, and that's in a well protected place at the top. It's not gonna snap.
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put the testosterone supplements down and use your keyboards for typing boys
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This is what I use, with a few color coded keys for Microsoft Visual Studio. The old Unicomp Ultra Classic 104:
(http://i.imgur.com/TSRNcXE.jpg)
I've tried amny different keyboards, but always return to this one. It feels so good, so solid, like a precision, heavy machine. I also started my career developing programs for the IBM AS/400 systems, so I got my start on buckling springs keyboards. It feels like home.
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The Model M is sturdy because it's really well constructed. It's got a MEGA thick PBT case, practically indestructible switches, all built around a thick plate of steel. Not to mention that the only pcb is the small controller board, and that's in a well protected place at the top. It's not gonna snap.
Strength does not equate to quality of construction. When I refer to quality, I mean success in what the keyboard is designed for; typing feeling, size, and still solidity. Modern keyboards generally do not need to weigh five pounds to be solid to the point of never hearing any reports of keyboards breaking due to physical damage.