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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Fragil1ty on Sat, 14 September 2013, 12:46:14

Title: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Fragil1ty on Sat, 14 September 2013, 12:46:14
Hey guys, I've recently ordered another Keycool 84 but this time it's the Black POM version with Reds and I'm just wondering, my current Keycool 84 has PBT, what is better?

Or is it all subjective to the user?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 14 September 2013, 13:24:22
Both are about as hard wearing, they just have a quite difference surface feeling. PBT has a dry feeling, where as POM feels 'wet'. Mostly just preference.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Fragil1ty on Sat, 14 September 2013, 14:19:32
Both are about as hard wearing, they just have a quite difference surface feeling. PBT has a dry feeling, where as POM feels 'wet'. Mostly just preference.

Oh okay, sweet. Does the Noppoo use POM keys? I think it does right?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Sat, 14 September 2013, 14:32:03
Yes, some of them anyway.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sat, 14 September 2013, 14:46:14
My overwhelming preference is PBT; I like the dry feel. You can get PBT keycap sets for the KC84 from Banggood for a very low price, and they have free shipping. Shipping is very slow from Banggood, but it eventually comes through. I think it took about a month for me to get my keycaps.

BTW, if you have a Leopold FC660M (the Cherry-switch model), an added bonus of the Banggood PBT keycap sets for the KC84 is that the spacebar also fits the Leopold.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: davkol on Sat, 14 September 2013, 15:46:18
POM has very low friction, and the keycaps are usually black. PBT on the other hand feels rough in most cases, partly due to "gritty" texture; colors are almost always other than black.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Sun, 15 September 2013, 04:12:38
Never tried Pom before, but pbt gives a real rough , kinda like high grit sand paper
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 15 September 2013, 10:37:43
In general I like PBT, but I will admit that POM spacebars are nice. Both are leagues ahead of ABS in my opinion.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: HotKillerZzz on Sun, 15 September 2013, 11:14:48
So PBT feels rough, POM feels wet, then how bout abs?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Sun, 15 September 2013, 12:32:35
PBT feels "rough" when its textured because its hard...
POM feels "wet" because of the low friction (like putting oil on PBT caps)
ABS feels like your everyday plastic (as a lot of it is made of ABS or blends with it)
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Fragil1ty on Sun, 15 September 2013, 14:06:00
Ah yes, this makes sense now thinking about it because my old Keycool 84 grey is a PBT, it has that rough feel,  like it's got a textured pattern on the key? and yeah POM feels kind of wet in a sense, it's kind of like comparing matte to glossy, that sort of thing in my opinion.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Hypersphere on Sun, 15 September 2013, 16:41:26
So PBT feels rough, POM feels wet, then how bout abs?
ABS feels "sticky". It offers increased friction at the skin-plastic interface compared to PBT.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Tony on Sun, 15 September 2013, 21:11:11
PBT feels "rough" when its textured because its hard...
POM feels "wet" because of the low friction (like putting oil on PBT caps)
ABS feels like your everyday plastic (as a lot of it is made of ABS or blends with it)

Very well described sir. I have Noppoo with POM and Filco with PBT. I think both are good, but PBT is a bit tougher.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: dorkvader on Sun, 15 September 2013, 21:54:24
PBT feels "rough" when its textured because its hard...
POM feels "wet" because of the low friction (like putting oil on PBT caps)
ABS feels like your everyday plastic (as a lot of it is made of ABS or blends with it)

Very well described sir. I have Noppoo with POM and Filco with PBT. I think both are good, but PBT is a bit tougher.


I disagree: PBT has a much lower toughness than either POM or ABS. The "hammer test" is proof of it.

Since PBT has a higher hardness and young's modulus, it's natural that the toughness (total area under the curve) is lower. Unless you aren't talking about the same toughness (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toughness) as I am.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: tbc on Sun, 15 September 2013, 23:43:36
why do people care about toughness for keycaps? I would hardly care finger smashing a 'highly dangerous' situation
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 16 September 2013, 00:15:55
why do people care about toughness for keycaps? I would hardly care finger smashing a 'highly dangerous' situation

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=40447.0
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: eth0s on Mon, 16 September 2013, 00:29:17
PBT and POM are both nice.  But the only POM keycaps with legends are laser in-filled, AFAIK.  Or at least they are most common lettered POM keycaps.  And you will feel the raised letters on the keytops.  I've been using exclusively PBT for like a year, and now ABS feels kind of funny to me.  And shiny ABS has a distinctive "greasy" feeling, that you cannot wash away.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 16 September 2013, 00:49:05
ABS > POM > PBT.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Mon, 16 September 2013, 03:29:38
Wut?

It should be

PBT>POM>ABS
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: bahamot on Mon, 16 September 2013, 03:38:29
Wut?

It should be

PBT>POM>ABS

or
ABS < POM < PBT.  ;D
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 16 September 2013, 03:40:26
PBT feels like poop to type on.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Mon, 16 September 2013, 03:44:52
Theres no "grip" on abs or pom
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: laffindude on Mon, 16 September 2013, 03:48:09
Why do you need grip? PBT kills the feel of the switch.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Mon, 16 September 2013, 06:17:37
Really? Theres a different switch feel?

I had no idea
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 16 September 2013, 06:31:58
PBT and POM are both nice.  But the only POM keycaps with legends are laser in-filled, AFAIK.  Or at least they are most common lettered POM keycaps.  And you will feel the raised letters on the keytops.  I've been using exclusively PBT for like a year, and now ABS feels kind of funny to me.  And shiny ABS has a distinctive "greasy" feeling, that you cannot wash away.

That's why I like my MX SPOS so much. The legends may be a little off center, but they aren't infilled which is great.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Mon, 16 September 2013, 16:22:03
Yeah some of the older Cherry POM have no raise at all on the legends. No idea how they managed it or why they stopped as they were VERY nice. I made the mistake of selling a set like that before I knew they weren't all that nice :/
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Fragil1ty on Mon, 16 September 2013, 17:41:06
I must admit that my Noppoo feels a lot nicer to type on than my Keycool, but I guess it's down to personal preference.

When I get the POM Black version of the Keycool, I guess it'll be review time! :D
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Belfong on Mon, 16 September 2013, 18:54:13

Yeah some of the older Cherry POM have no raise at all on the legends. No idea how they managed it or why they stopped as they were VERY nice. I made the mistake of selling a set like that before I knew they weren't all that nice :/
The Noppoo POM has no raise in the legend. Feels very smooth to me too.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: davkol on Mon, 16 September 2013, 19:41:52
There's no lettering after few weeks of use anyway.
Title: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Belfong on Mon, 30 September 2013, 02:47:51
After using the Noppoo for  2 weeks, I find that some of the letters are becoming shiny. Is that common to you guys? It's pretty inconsistent. Some keys are shinny and some are not. Most notably shiny are:
ASDGHKL
CVBN

Edit: now that I think of it.. this keyboard is a second hand keyboard and while the owner claimed that it was not used, as he hated Blacks and kept it in the box, there is no guarantee on usage.. so it may not be 2 weeks and the shiny could be cause by 2 years of usage. Strange that it is only certain keys.. so maybe it was swapped out before sale, I don't know.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/09/30/5aba9amu.jpg)

Because of this, I am not sure if I like POM.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: davkol on Mon, 30 September 2013, 08:19:42
Lettering on the black choc mini is awful, it fades almost instantly. Not sure about the shiny keys though. Mine are like new in this regard—after a year.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: do_Og@n on Mon, 30 September 2013, 08:33:47
I've never tried POM myself. Now you have me curious.

I personally like PBT but I've fallen in love with my Ducky Shine keycaps I bought a long time ago. The smooth (kind of glossy) feeling gives you a good grip on the keycaps.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Belfong on Mon, 30 September 2013, 08:59:13
I'll clean it in the next few days to see if it's grease or finger oil or if it's really became shiny.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: tp4tissue on Mon, 30 September 2013, 09:05:50
POM is supposed to be smoother.. it has some soft suppleness to it. (http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_095_.gif)
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: rowdy on Mon, 30 September 2013, 18:45:38
POM is supposed to be smoother.. it has some soft suppleness to it.
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_095_.gif)


Sounds intriguing.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Zeal on Tue, 01 October 2013, 06:00:40
POM switches sound interesting... But I'm not sure how I feel about the "shining" while still looking "gritty" =|
And there's a GB for thick blank POM caps atm...
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: gameaholic on Tue, 01 October 2013, 12:41:14
In general I like PBT, but I will admit that POM spacebars are nice. Both are leagues ahead of ABS in my opinion.

where can I get a POM spacebar?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Zeal on Tue, 01 October 2013, 13:32:45
In general I like PBT, but I will admit that POM spacebars are nice. Both are leagues ahead of ABS in my opinion.

where can I get a POM spacebar?
GB for $29 for full 104 blank set
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49081.0
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 01 October 2013, 21:01:53
In general I like PBT, but I will admit that POM spacebars are nice. Both are leagues ahead of ABS in my opinion.

where can I get a POM spacebar?
You can buy a cherry keyboard that has one and sell the rest.

Here's one that's not too much, and you can probably make most of it back by selling the switches
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271225181823
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Tony on Wed, 25 December 2013, 23:39:55
I have Choc mini with POM and Filco with PBT. I prefer PBT, but POM is quite close.

As someone said, PBT feels dry and coarse while POM feels wet and delicate. So it's subjective whether you like one or the other.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Thu, 26 December 2013, 00:12:06
Does POM get shiny?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 26 December 2013, 00:13:36
Does POM get shiny?

its pretty much inherently shiny
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Thu, 26 December 2013, 00:14:02
Does POM get shiny?

its pretty much inherently shiny

So its like shiny ABS?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Tony on Thu, 26 December 2013, 00:22:15
Yes, all ABS, POM and PBTgets shiny with time. But PBT and POM get shiny much less and you still can type with a shiny POM or PBT without feeling sticky.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: terran5992 on Thu, 26 December 2013, 02:08:25
Yes, all ABS, POM and PBTgets shiny with time. But PBT and POM get shiny much less and you still can type with a shiny POM or PBT without feeling sticky.

Oh i have got to try POM one of these days
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: spremino on Thu, 26 December 2013, 06:01:30
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 26 December 2013, 08:21:41
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

I've been using dolch gmk caps from originative daily for a while now and there is no noticeable shine.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: do_Og@n on Thu, 26 December 2013, 08:57:57
I got myself some POM keycaps from Banggood a month or two ago and I have to say I like them a lot. Instead of the gritty, coarse feel you get from PBT they feel soft, comfortable to type on.

I consider them to be the shag carpet keycap of the keycap world.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: tbc on Thu, 26 December 2013, 14:39:03
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

i wasn't talking about shining.  i was talking about crushing pressure.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 26 December 2013, 19:15:19
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

i wasn't talking about shining.  i was talking about crushing pressure.

So is POM a stronger plastic than ABS or PBT?
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 27 December 2013, 05:14:24
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

i wasn't talking about shining.  i was talking about crushing pressure.

So is POM a stronger plastic than ABS or PBT?

What exactly do you mean by "stronger"?

In terms of pure tensile strength, POM is strongest (68MPa), then PBT (50MPa), then ABS (40MPa).

However, there are different measures of "strength". Tensile strength, compressive strength, fracture resistance, surface hardness, etc. PBT has low fracture resistance for instance, even though it has higher tensile strength and surface hardness than ABS. This is why it doesn't handle being hit with a hammer as well as ABS like in that ridiculous Ripster hammer test image: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Hammer_Time_-_PBT_versus_ABS.jpg

In simple terms, POM is the "toughest" (highest tensile strength and fracture resistance). PBT is hard wearing, but brittle, ABS is the softest and it's fracture resistance is somewhere in between POM and PBT.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 27 December 2013, 19:00:45
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

i wasn't talking about shining.  i was talking about crushing pressure.

So is POM a stronger plastic than ABS or PBT?

What exactly do you mean by "stronger"?

In terms of pure tensile strength, POM is strongest (68MPa), then PBT (50MPa), then ABS (40MPa).

However, there are different measures of "strength". Tensile strength, compressive strength, fracture resistance, surface hardness, etc. PBT has low fracture resistance for instance, even though it has higher tensile strength and surface hardness than ABS. This is why it doesn't handle being hit with a hammer as well as ABS like in that ridiculous Ripster hammer test image: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Hammer_Time_-_PBT_versus_ABS.jpg

In simple terms, POM is the "toughest" (highest tensile strength and fracture resistance). PBT is hard wearing, but brittle, ABS is the softest and it's fracture resistance is somewhere in between POM and PBT.

No idea.

Whatever tbc meant by "crushing pressure".
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: yjfknt on Fri, 27 December 2013, 19:09:18
I prefer PBT because of the texture and I dislike both ABS and POM textures I feel like they feel pretty similar.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: tbc on Fri, 27 December 2013, 19:47:47
why do people care about toughness for keycaps?

Because they don't want their keycaps becoming shiny within weeks of usage. "Hard-wearing" would be a better word.

i wasn't talking about shining.  i was talking about crushing pressure.

So is POM a stronger plastic than ABS or PBT?

What exactly do you mean by "stronger"?

In terms of pure tensile strength, POM is strongest (68MPa), then PBT (50MPa), then ABS (40MPa).

However, there are different measures of "strength". Tensile strength, compressive strength, fracture resistance, surface hardness, etc. PBT has low fracture resistance for instance, even though it has higher tensile strength and surface hardness than ABS. This is why it doesn't handle being hit with a hammer as well as ABS like in that ridiculous Ripster hammer test image: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Hammer_Time_-_PBT_versus_ABS.jpg

In simple terms, POM is the "toughest" (highest tensile strength and fracture resistance). PBT is hard wearing, but brittle, ABS is the softest and it's fracture resistance is somewhere in between POM and PBT.

No idea.

Whatever tbc meant by "crushing pressure".

keycap vs hammer.  or more likely, other packages on top of them when they're being shipped.
Title: Re: POM vs PBT.
Post by: lilky on Fri, 27 December 2013, 23:57:32
I think each plastic material has it's own pros and cons. Try using different plastics with different switches...the combinations are endless!