geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: xsphat on Thu, 04 December 2008, 10:33:45
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Another dream come true (http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=579), courtesy of Japan.
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I'm buying this next.
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wow, its even a spacesaver. It really is a dream!
IS that a US layout? (looks like it). And how much is it?
Once again Unicomp, if you're listening, why cant you do this with buckling springs?!
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I wonder when they will make one with Cherry blues.
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It costs about $80, and I think it rules. It comes out Dec. 12. I am going to buy one as soon as I can afford it. I have never seen a production space saver in this layout with Alps switches before. KBDMania has some pics of really cool mods like this, but this Filco, as far as I know (and I've searched a lot) this is the first production one ever made. That's why I NEED it!
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$80 is really good. I'd rather get one of these than chance it with a refurbished SMK-85.
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$80 is really good. I'd rather get one of these than chance it with a refurbished SMK-85.
I'm with you there.
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$80 is really good. I'd rather get one of these than chance it with a refurbished SMK-85.
$80 is an *excellent* price, but how much does shipping from japan (or wherever it is) add? Doesnt it add like $40?
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I just checked, the price on the site is is $86.11, and yeah, shipping would add about $40.
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out of curiosity, is there tax on purchases from japan?
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I wonder who make the switches for the Zero range, they seem to be known as XM.
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this news made my day... thanks guys, i'm on a mission again :) i almost bought tenkeyless with black cherries because I wanted some new spacesaver
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$80 is an *excellent* price, but how much does shipping from japan (or wherever it is) add? Doesnt it add like $40?
With shipping it will cost twice as much as an SMK-85. :(
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How should one go about paying directly without having to pay any extra hidden fees?
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How should one go about purchasing directly without having to pay any extra hidden fees?
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I think you could buy from Diatec directly although now their English site says:
We're sorry, but at this time we can not accept an online order from foreign country.
However, if you call us, we guide you to buy our products with pleasure.
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I did, through bank transfer. Lame ol' Bank of America charged me $45 for the transaction -_-', which was what I meant by "hidden fee."
$100 FKBN104M/EB + $30 shipping + $45 bank transfer fee = $175
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Another dream come true (http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=579), courtesy of Japan.
So what is the scoop on white alps switches?
What makes them so special?
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So what is the scoop on white alps switches?
What makes them so special?
Very clicky and very tactile (more so than the blue cherries and more so than the black alps).
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I wonder when they will make one with Cherry blues.
Already do. FKBN87MC/EB (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/filco/10000398/)
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Very clicky and very tactile (more so than the blue cherries and more so than the black alps).
A friend of mine has the Dell AT101 which was light and clicky. Is it similar to that?
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Alps are light only when compared to buckling springs. They require a bit of force but less than your Model M and they click nearly twice as loud.
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Already do. FKBN87MC/EB (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/filco/10000398/)
I thought they did, but I didn't know it was available in Japan.
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Where would be the best place to buy this for Europe?In this case, Portugal. i really like my macally 96, but for windows use, its layout and some missing keys really puts it down for me. This Filco seems really nice, and i assume benippon will also sell this?
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Where would be the best place to buy this for Europe?In this case, Portugal. i really like my macally 96, but for windows use, its layout and some missing keys really puts it down for me. This Filco seems really nice, and i assume benippon will also sell this?
you can also try with http://www.crescent-shop.com. I used it before to get my hhkb pro and all went very well.
we can also ask benippon to add it to their list for pre-order, like they did with the first tenkeyless filco.
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With shipping it will cost twice as much as an SMK-85. :(
actually 3 times as much, since I just picked up a refurbished smk-85 for about $40 shipped (dsi store on ebay, with 25% off using the microsoft live.com rebate).
and thats not counting any hidden fees or taxes... (the $40 bank transfer fee mentioned above, for instance, would make it 4 times as much...)
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A friend of mine has the Dell AT101 which was light and clicky. Is it similar to that?
no, I believe at101w has black alps not white alps (unless this was some other version of the at101?)
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Already do. FKBN87MC/EB (http://item.rakuten.co.jp/filco/10000398/)
Thanks. I couldn't find this model on the Diatec site:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/products/list.php?cate_c=1&subcate_sq=2
They have it in their shop:
http://www.diatec.co.jp/shop/det.php?prod_c=589
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I posted with Crescent-Shopping, am waiting to hear back on pricing for the blue cherry and alps Filco tenless keyboards....
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I posted with Crescent-Shopping, am waiting to hear back on pricing for the blue cherry and alps Filco tenless keyboards....
wow, are you getting both? Thats quite a haul under the xmas tree :)
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Have you considered Unitek K-258? It is a "space saver" model intended for rack use. I scored one like new from local warehouse last week for $0.75. :) It is a white Alps (with Alps printed on the switch). Saw an eBay listing early for $79.
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wow, are you getting both? Thats quite a haul under the xmas tree :)
: ) nah, just checking on availabilty.
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So, Filco mini's avaiable in Cherry black, Cherry blue, and Alps white.
Diatec deserves some mad props.
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So, Filco mini's avaiable in Cherry black, Cherry blue, and Alps white.
Diatec deserves some mad props.
and Cherry browns....ditto on the props. Would it be too much to ask for them to offer the mini with BS keys?
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Theoretically they could. IIRC, the patents expired last year...
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Theoretically they could. IIRC, the patents expired last year...
I would buy one straightaway if they did.
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I would buy one straightaway if they did.
I would start saving up for one rightaway ;)
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I don't know if they would though. Their boards are just rebranded Costar boards and the problem with that is, it's easy for costar to just solder a switch to a PCB, I doubt they would go for building their own switches with custom parts just for some Filco boards. I believe Buckling Springs aren't nearly as popular in Asia as Cherry switches so I don't see it happening anytime soon:(
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I think I want to be buried with my M. ;)
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and Cherry browns....ditto on the props. Would it be too much to ask for them to offer the mini with BS keys?
The one version that I actually owned for a bit. ;)
I've always loved the Cherry blues, so I may see if I am able to acquire one of them. (but it would also be interesting to have a white Alps-equipped one as well)
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The one version that I actually owned for a bit. ;)
I've always loved the Cherry blues, so I may see if I am able to acquire one of them. (but it would also be interesting to have a white Alps-equipped one as well)
I have the filco mini with browns and have a das with blue cherries, which I dismissed at first but am now liking. A friend has the Dell with black alps which felt light and clicky(which was nice, I just didn't like the full size layout of the keyboard) . I have not tried the white alps.
I am liking the form factor of the filco mini and it seems to be a very well built keyboard, the fit and finish are exemplary. I can see myself getting another mini, but don't know which keyswitch to go with.
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I think I want to be buried with my M. ;)
And many centuries from now, when some archeologist recovers your grave site, will find your model m, get an adaptor, plug it into whatever passes for a computer in the future, and you know what, it will probably still work : )
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And many centuries from now, when some archeologist recovers your grave site, will find your model m, get an adaptor, plug it into whatever passes for a computer in the future, and you know what, it will probably still work : )
Haha! Like that volkswagon in that woody allen movie ("sleeper", I think: "They really built these things!") :D
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Haha! Like that volkswagon in that woody allen movie ("sleeper", I think: "They really built these things!") :D
I remember that scene.....made me laugh to think about it again.
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And many centuries from now, when some archeologist recovers your grave site, will find your model m, get an adaptor, plug it into whatever passes for a computer in the future, and you know what, it will probably still work : )
Uhh, ... it's pretty hard to get THAT smell out metal, much less plastic. Model M of the Dead.
:eek: yuck! :eek:
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Uhh, ... it's pretty hard to get THAT smell out metal, much less plastic. Model M of the Dead.
:eek: yuck! :eek:
not to mention my ghost will be haunting it, trying to finish my last paper... they'll freak out that it sometimes 'types by itself' ;)
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(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/76433/For%20message%20boards%20and%20ebay/typing-of-the-dead.jpg)
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hilarious! what is that from? A game?
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I believe that was an attempt at a House of the Dead style typing game.
See zombie with letters, type letters, shoot zombie, I do believe.
Anyway, the BS patents expired 11 years ago, not one year ago. :)
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That would be what? Right around the time Unicomp bought the patents (give or take a few years) I wonder why Unicomp never bothered to renew them?
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You don't renew patents.
They're issued once, you get 20 years, and that's it. Then, the invention is in the public domain. That's the whole point of patents - legally protect an inventor from unauthorized use of the invention for 20 years, but then everyone gets to use the invention, not just people and companies to who, the inventor has granted a license.
There are ways to get around it - modify whatever it is very slightly, get a fresh patent, and then advertise the hell out of the new product (while slamming your own old product, because people are going to buy the now legal, and much cheaper, generic version of the old product instead of your version.) See: Claritin and Clarinex, Prilosec and Nexium.
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My only question is why isn't anybody making keyboards (other than price of custom parts, but people would gladly pay the premium) with Buckling Springs other than Unicomp?
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Actually, there is a company making BS keyboards other than Unicomp, although with a slightly different design, as I understand. Ya Sheng/Sheng Ya (depending on where you look it up) has a Chinese patent on a BS design, IIRC from 1989 or so.
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I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.
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My only question is why isn't anybody making keyboards (other than price of custom parts, but people would gladly pay the premium) with Buckling Springs other than Unicomp?
seriously.
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I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.
In every sense of the word, from what I've heard on here.
(I'd still like to get my hands on one, just to see just how bad it is.)
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I imagine it costs too much to make. Although, Ya Sheng patented a buckling spring design and their keyboards seem to be really cheap.
well thats why you dress the case up a bit (piano black finish with a red escape key?) and sell it for $150 each :)
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I think they'd need to work on the BS design a bit more, based on lam's review (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=940).
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I believe that was an attempt at a House of the Dead style typing game.
See zombie with letters, type letters, shoot zombie, I do believe. :)
It's a real game, a good buddy of mine has it. He sasys it's fun but he will never play it again.
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so what would it take for a geekhack committee to submit a keyboard design to costar? Basically it would be something most of us seem to agree on: basic spacesaver with custom-selected switches, possibly in piano black with optional blank keys, with an optional red escape key (and comes shipped with a keypuller :)
We can specify the basic weight and density specs.
After all, the guy who launched that das keyboard company was just a regular programmer who came up with an idea and had one custom built and then OEM'ed the design out to costar.
That way we can have a basic spacesaver design with custom-selectable switches (which is what we all seem to want to be available out there).
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with dip switches and true n-key rollover!
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with dip switches and true n-key rollover!
exactly! now you're thinking :)
and detachable cable?
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That way we can have a basic spacesaver design with custom-selectable switches (which is what we all seem to want to be available out there).
Seems to me that Diatec is already doing this for us. :)
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I think this would cost alot more to OEM than legendless keycaps. I think the first DAS was rubber dome. Personally, I don't think buckling spring would feel right in any form other than the Model M. It's so big and clunky but all part of the feel.
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Seems to me that Diatec is already doing this for us. :)
no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!
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I think this would cost alot more to OEM than legendless keycaps. .
it would be an "open source" design. Any OEM can manufacture it and keep the profits, we just want it (and its interchangeable parts) to be widely available (in the US and europe, and with ability to mix and match keys, keycaps, switches, pcb boards, cables, even outer casings).
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no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!
At this point, I'm just happy such choice is available...at any cost.
Buckling spring fans have Unicomp here in the US. We have some limited choice from DSI and DataDesk. But, for the most part, you have to order overseas to get new, quality keyboards. (or find some NIB gems from eBay)
Unfortunately, most end-users have very mouse-heavy usage. Which is probably why you can get some phenomenal mice...but the keyboard options are less than stellar.
This is one reason why I think it is important for us to be as helpful as possible to other geekhack members. I frequently send keyboard "stuff" I can get easily overseas to other geekhack members. Anything I can do to put better quality keyboards in their hands is my pleasure. We just needs more Japanese, Korean, etc members. :)
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I think the problem is the unfortunate language barrier. There may be people who do speak Japanese, Korean, and Chinese, but not much English, so they might be too shy because they're afraid that we might intimidate them. Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
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Here is what beNippon has to say about the white Alps-equipped Filco mini:
Thank you for your request. This keyboard is currently in
closed-preorders. But we should be able to provide it after its
release, therefore could you come back around next week:
http://benippon.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=20371
(note that the price will most certainly be updated a bit)
And here is what they have to say regarding the blue Cherry-equipped Filco mini:
I am sorry, this model is not available for us.
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After all, the guy who launched that das keyboard company was just a regular programmer who came up with an idea
This is how globalization works. Marketing is the important factor.
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no buckling springs yet though... and most of these even with the cherries don't seem available in the US. Why should we pay $40 bank fee plus $40 shipping and all the rest of it!
It's better than switching to membrane keyboards though, now isn't it?
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I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.
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I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.
I have requested estimates from J-Goods for both the blue Cherry and white Alps versions...but have not heard back yet. Have you gotten a response from them?
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Having just jumped into this thread for the first time, I have to say that's a super-sweet keyboard. It looks like it doesn't have a built-in hub, which is important to me, but even so, it's still tempting.
I have no idea how I'm going to be able to save up for that tube amp if I keep reading this forum.
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I heard from Crescent-Shopping, the alps version is not available till 12/12. They are going to send me individual quotes for the blue and for the alps.
I should have them tomorrow.
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I think when I order one of these bad boys, I'm gonna use J-Goods.
J-Goods can get both keyboards (the white Alps and blue Cherries).
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J-Goods can get both keyboards (the white Alps and blue Cherries).
Whats the pricing from J-Goods?
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Whats the pricing from J-Goods?
The blue Cherry 'board (FKBM87MC/EB) is 17,203 JPY, shipped.
The white Alps 'board (FKBM87Z/EB) is 13,147 JPY, shipped.
Both 'boards ordered together are 27,317 JPY, shipped.
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The blue Cherry 'board (FKBM87MC/EB) is 17,203 JPY, shipped.
The white Alps 'board (FKBM87Z/EB) is 13,147 JPY, shipped.
Both 'boards ordered together are 27,317 JPY, shipped.
Thanks for the info. Now which one should I pick? : )
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I have requested estimates from J-Goods for both the blue Cherry and white Alps versions...but have not heard back yet. Have you gotten a response from them?
I can't afford this right now, but J-Goods was great to me in the past. The reason I would like to go through them is because I want to order all my accessories right away to.
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Thanks for the info. Now which one should I pick? : )
Why, both of course! :D
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I heard back from crescent-shop
The blue cherry filco is 154.26 without shipping
The alps filco is 110.07 without shipping.
I ordered a filco mini from them a month or so ago and IIRC the shipping was around 40 dollars.
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I can't afford this right now, but J-Goods was great to me in the past. The reason I would like to go through them is because I want to order all my accessories right away to.
Do you have a link for j-goods? The one I googled does not have an english page.
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I went here (http://www.j-goods.us/shop/index.php?main_page=index&language=en) and created an account and inquired about exactly what I wanted and links to them on I think Amazon.co.jp.
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It's in the wiki, jgoods (http://www.j-goods.net/)
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It's in the wiki, jgoods (http://www.j-goods.net/)
thanks!
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Might pull one for this later. i like my macally 96, but its way to crippled for my layout, and this is as close as i can get an alps switch keyboard and from filco which i dont have any....:P
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I found a close up of the XM switch (no internals), even with ALPS branding it could be simplified:
http://forum.talkdigi.net/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1603
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The stem on it looks longer like the Alps whites in my MK96. That makes me even more into the idea of buying one of those.
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Do you think it's possible to tell by the stem length if they're real ALPS? The (real) ones I have protrude by 4mm. The keycaps were also nearly impossible to remove. I don't know if this is a feature with the simplified ALPS.
If you do get one, would you post pics of a switch taken apart for comparison? There might be something to this XM renaming.
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Do you think it's possible to tell by the stem length if they're real ALPS? The (real) ones I have protrude by 4mm. The keycaps were also nearly impossible to remove. I don't know if this is a feature with the simplified ALPS.
If you do get one, would you post pics of a switch taken apart for comparison? There might be something to this XM renaming.
Maybe. I only will if it feels / sounds different than the MK96, which I know has real Alps whites (I did a side-by-side comparison with my old Northgate — they are identical and both are more than ten years old).
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I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!
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I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!
That's cool. Unfortunately for me, I won't be buying anything direct from Japan at this moment, due to the falling value of the US dollar against the Japanese Yen. Source (http://finance.yahoo.com/currency-investing). I'll wait and see if anything pops up on GMarket.
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I was in Okinawa in the early 80's and IIRC it was 270 yen to the dollar. It was 800 won to the dollar in Korea.
I think its around 86 yen to the dollar now. So yeah, it kind of blows.
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I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!
That is definitely very exciting news. Big splashy pics please! The rest of us will have to live vicariously off your good fortune :)
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That is definitely very exciting news. Big splashy pics please! The rest of us will have to live vicariously off your good fortune :)
Right : ) I am looking forward to it as from what I understand the white alp switches are somewhere between the cherry blue and BS keys. I am using cherry browns now and do like them. But I am looking for a little more key feel, and a little more noise. I am hoping the white alp switches give me that.
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I am looking for a little more key feel, and a little more noise. I am hoping the white alp switches give me that.
I believe that is precisely what they will give you. I think you'll like them *a lot*. :)
In terms of resistance, alps definitely fall between BS and cherries. They're a nice middle ground actually.
In terms of sound, you can tune the sound of the alps quite a bit. There are of course non clicky alps (the blacks and gray alps) and alps with rubber dampers to even get rid of bottoming/topping clack (AEK II and SGI have them if you need donor boards). Best part is the guts between the diffferent switches are interchangeable and the alps switches open up so easily.
So its easy to stick with the basic alps switch and arrive at a sound level you like.
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I believe that is precisely what they will give you. I think you'll like them *a lot*. :)
In terms of resistance, alps definitely fall between BS and cherries. They're a nice middle ground actually.
In terms of sound, you can tune the sound of the alps quite a bit. There are of course non clicky alps (the blacks and gray alps) and alps with rubber dampers to even get rid of bottoming/topping clack (AEK II and SGI have them if you need donor boards). Best part is the guts between the diffferent switches are interchangeable and the alps switches open up so easily.
So its easy to stick with the basic alps switch and arrive at a sound level you like.
wow, thats trippy. Tuning keyboards.
I don't have any alps keyboards. I am assuming they are quality keys and will last a long time. The noise doesn't bother me though, I actually like it. I can't imagine wanting to silence it. Thats one of the things I like about the BS keyboards, the sound and the key feel are top notch. If only I can get a BS keyswitch in a Filco mini......
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The problem is that you can only tune the Alps switch so much, that is, you can have the same exact switch on two different keyboard interior constructions, say the Northgate 101 (w/o Windows keys) vs the Northgate 101P (w/Windows keys). The 101P sounded more hollow and bright in tone, while the 101 sounded more solid and darker in tone. I also noticed the same thing when I took out the rubber damper on my SGI Granite and compared it with the Dell AT101W. The Granite sounded more solid along the lines with the 101, while the AT101W sounded more hollow along the lines of the 101P. You can also tell on a Unicomp (thin plastic) vs the original model M (thick plastic). The overall sound quality therefore has to do the overall keyboard construction as well.
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I don't have any alps keyboards. I am assuming they are quality keys and will last a long time. The noise doesn't bother me though, I actually like it.
Clicky ALPS have a lifespan of 8-10 million key presses. For comparison, Cherry blues and browns are rated at 20 million. I find the case and keycaps really contribute to the sound.
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Clicky ALPS have a lifespan of 8-10 million key presses. For comparison, Cherry blues and browns are rated at 20 million. I find the case and keycaps really contribute to the sound.
it definitely does seem that geekhackers come across "worn out alps" fairly often actually, especially on really old boards. I wonder if that was the issue with the "gritty" batch of black alps we saw. Seems like its the sliders that go first (causing increased friction and rattling, mainly).
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Seems like its the sliders that go first (causing increased friction and rattling, mainly).
It seems with Cherry switches there is some friction to begin with, and the tactile feeling and spring tension gets less with long-term use.
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Clicky ALPS have a lifespan of 8-10 million key presses. For comparison, Cherry blues and browns are rated at 20 million. I find the case and keycaps really contribute to the sound.
Thanks for the information Chloe.
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I really like Filco for messing around with different switches like that. However, looking at the photos, I'm now definitely sure I like "floating" keys better than "sunk" keys.
Thats another thing I like about the IBM model m's. Granted they are not floating like lowpoly's design but the model m keys ride high on the keyboard. Thats something I really like versus the keys sitting low.
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I heard back from crescent. I went ahead with the white alps version. I am kind of excited : )
It shipped today : )
Look forward to receiving it. woohoo!
Hey, did you post your thoughts about this keyboard yet? I apologize if you did and I missed them ... I saw the thread stemming from billm's review but didn't see any comments from you on it.
I'm seriously considering getting one of these boards. While I love the layout of my HHKB Pro 2 (except the placement of the "\"/"|" key), I'm find it seems to make my hands get tired if I work with it for a long time. Not sure why.
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Is this what you're looking for? http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1185
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bigpook eventually converted the kb to black alps. I forget exactly why...
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I PM'd megarat on that. But in a nutshell, I found the white xm to be too balky. Even after greasing the stems. YMMV of course, but I can't really recommend the white xm switches. They start off great and sound nice and loud, but over time my fingers get tired.
This doesn't happen to me on the BS keys, let alone any of the cherry keys I have used, also the topre.
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Here is bigpook's thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1529).
I PM'd megarat on that. But in a nutshell, I found the white xm to be too balky. Even after greasing the stems. YMMV of course, but I can't really recommend the white xm switches. They start off great and sound nice and loud, but over time my fingers get tired.
This doesn't happen to me on the BS keys, let alone any of the cherry keys I have used, also the topre.
Have you used other white-alps boards (fake or real)? I really like the MK96 and Mac-101e I have. I'm wondering if it really is just a preference thing here or if the Filco white xm are just not built as well (as fluid).
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Here is bigpook's thread (http://geekhack.org/showthread.php?t=1529).
Have you used other white-alps boards (fake or real)? I really like the MK96 and Mac-101e I have. I'm wondering if it really is just a preference thing here or if the Filco white xm are just not built as well (as fluid).
Unfortunately the answer is no. I have nothing to compare the experience too.
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Okay. That's cool. Just wondering. I'm still not sure if I want to bother. I like BS more than white alps anyway, and they really aren't that much louder, especially if I do a couple small things to dampen the BS sound anyway.
Thanks for your help!
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Okay. That's cool. Just wondering. I'm still not sure if I want to bother. I like BS more than white alps anyway, and they really aren't that much louder, especially if I do a couple small things to dampen the BS sound anyway.
Thanks for your help!
Yeah, I like the BS keys better too. As for loudness, I think the white xm's where a little bit louder. The BS keys are just about perfect if you ask me though. If I was going to go light it would be the cherry brown or blue if I want noise. The Topres have a very nice feel too.
So there you go, my top 4