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geekhack Community => Reviews => Topic started by: Hypersphere on Fri, 20 September 2013, 17:56:36
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BACKGROUND AND RATIONALE
Until a few months ago, my main keyboard was a full-sized IBM Model M with buckling spring switches. I have three workstations, each with three computers running Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows 7. I do not do any gaming, but I do a considerable amount of writing along with molecular modeling, biostatistics, and scientific graphics. A right shoulder injury prompted a search for TKL boards in order to position the mouse more ergonomically toward the center of the desk.
After trying Filco, Ducky, and CM TKLs, I was able to find a NIB IBM SSK as my new daily driver. However, during my search for smaller boards, I became obsessed with the notion of reproducing all the functionality of a full-sized keyboard within a 60 to 75% form factor. Most of the boards I tried had Cherry switches (brown, blue, black, white, and green), but I also tested the Matias Mini Tactile Pro with Alps-inspired Matias tactile/clicky switches. Along the way, I encountered the Leopold FC660C, which has 45-gram Topre switches, and I decided that I preferred Topre over all other switches with the possible exception of IBM buckling springs. The only drawbacks to the Leopold FC660C were its lack of high-quality dye-sublimated PBT keycaps and the asymmetry introduced into its layout by the arrow cluster and Insert/Delete keys.
Throughout my search, I kept getting suggestions to try the HHKB Pro 2. I was attracted to its 60% form factor, elegant design, and Topre switches, but I was skeptical because of its alien layout and lack of dedicated arrow keys. Nevertheless, because I had been thinking so much about the HHKB Pro 2 during my extensive search for the perfect keyboard, I knew my mind could never be at peace until trying it. Therefore, after trying many other keyboards of various sizes and switch types, I finally placed the order, and today it arrived.
I got the black version, which has black legends on dark charcoal gray keycaps. This color scheme renders the keys virtually unreadable, but it gives the board an agreeable stealthy look. There was also a method to my madness. At the time I ordered the keyboard, EliteKeyboards (EK) did not have the white model in stock, and I figured that if I liked the board, I would get a set of white and light gray keycaps. From videos I have seen posted on YouTube, the contrast between the black case and light-colored keycaps provides an agreeable juxtaposition of modern and retro styles.
FIRST IMPRESSION
When I first unpacked the box, I instantly liked what I saw. It was the most right-looking keyboard I had ever seen. It seemed exactly the right size, and it was laid out with a beautiful and functional symmetry. Upon lifting the keyboard out of the box, I noticed that the board felt solid despite being lightweight. There was no detectable flex in the case, and no wobble when placed on the desk, either with no extension of the feet, or with the feet in the low or high position.
SETUP AND TEST RUN
Being primarily a Mac user, I set the DIP switches to Mac mode, and I downloaded and installed the Mac driver. The driver is not necessary, but it presumably adds some niceties, such as Mac-centric media controls. I also set the DIP switch that converts the Delete key to a Backspace. Forward delete is available via Fn+Del. It was initially a bit disconcerting to see the on-screen instructions for the Mac driver installation only in Japanese, but this added to the exotic aura of the board and the installation went just fine.
RAPID ADJUSTMENTS TO PRESUMED STRANGENESS
After typing for only a few minutes, I adjusted quickly to all the things that I thought might cause me to put the keyboard up for sale on eBay almost as soon as I got it. For example, I adapted to Control being where Caps Lock is usually located. Alt and Command (with Mac symbols!) are exactly where they are supposed to be on either side of the spacebar. Moreover, the Backspace located directly above the Return key now seems to be where it should have been all along. The arrow keys are Fn+[;'/ -- I thought this would be the hardest adjustment of all, but this also seems quite natural. I really like the Fn key to the right of the Right Shift, and the cursor diamond formed by [;'/ is easy to reach. Already I find a cursor diamond more natural than an inverted-T. Overall, my fingers adapted quickly and intuitively to what I thought would be an alien layout. It seems that the extensive research on the part of Prof. E. Wada that went into the design of the HHKB Pro 2 has paid off handsomely.
THAT SOUND; THAT FEEL
When typing, the famous "thock" has a hypnotic effect; I wanted to keep typing in order to continue hearing the sound. Thus, I would rate the thockness or thocknicity factor very high –- nothing new here for those already addicted to Topre switches. Moreover, the fact that the Topre switches are not mounted to a metal plate does not seem to matter at all. If anything, I like the sound and feel of the case-mounted Topres in the HHKB Pro 2 better than those in my metal-plate-mounted Leopold FC660C.
NO MAJOR CHANGES NEEDED
Before actually trying the HHKB Pro 2, I thought I would want to change it in various ways. For example, I thought I would prefer it to have a completely standard layout like that of the Poker II, dedicated arrow keys and/or plate-mounted switches like the Leopold FC660C, or beefed-up switches like the 55-gram RF 87u. However, the keyboard is nearly perfect as it is. I think the only thing I might change is the weight of the switches to 55 grams –- this is something that could be done while preserving the integrity of its true 60% design.
It is interesting that I am inclined to continue using the HHKB Pro 2, whereas I quickly gave up on my Poker II, which has a completely standard layout and only lacks dedicated arrow keys. I think the main difference is the superiority of Topre switches over Cherry mx blue switches, helping to give the HHKB Pro 2 a mellow fluidic quality as opposed to the raspy brittleness of the Cherry-blue Poker II.
Thus far, I have not noticed any deal-breaking negatives. However, I have noticed some of the relatively minor issues that others have commented on, such as the lack of rubberized feet. Indeed, if you stop typing and push on the case, you can scoot the keyboard along the desk, although the keyboard tends to sit firmly wherever you put it while typing. Nevertheless, the poor design of the feet is a glaring discrepancy in light of the otherwise excellent design of the keyboard and ought to be addressed in future revisions.
CONCLUSION: A THING OF BEAUTY IS A JOY FOREVER
In summary, after finally trying the HHKB Pro 2 for myself, I have been pleasantly surprised to experience firsthand the reasons behind the many rave reviews. The HHKB Pro 2 is so good to look at, it wins converts by appearance alone. However, this keyboard transcends a mere objet d'art –- it is a marvelous example of the interdependence of form and function -- superb design yielding a machine as useful as it is beautiful.
UPDATE: A FEW CHANGES
Although the HHKB Pro 2 is fine as it is (Fig. 1 below), after a while I decided to make a few changes.
[attach=1]
Fig. 1. Standard HHKB Pro 2.
First, I prefer a dark case, and so I purchased the dark gray version. The dye-sublimated PBT keycaps on the original white/gray version are beautiful, but I prefer black or charcoal gray modifiers. In addition, the legends on the white/gray caps are a bit busy, and so I replaced the alpha keys with those from a blue Topre set and added some red accent keys (Fig. 2 below).
[attach=2]
Fig. 2. Dark Gray HHKB with Blue Topre Alphas and Red Accents.
Later, I added Silencing Rings, lubed the stabilizers and switch guide rails with Superlube 51010 oil, replaced the ABS spacebar with a PBT one, and added additional foam to the spacebar shock absorbers. This resulted in quieting the return-stroke clack while preserving the down-stroke thock.
After purchasing an additional dark gray model for work, this time non-printed, I replaced the 45 g domes with 55 g domes from a RF87U. At first, I preferred the heavier switches, but after some time, I decided that I prefer 45 g domes in the HHKB. The heavier domes seem more appropriate for the larger RF keyboard with its plate-mounted switches.
It has been over three years since purchasing my first HHKB Pro 2. During that time, I have tried many different keyboards representing various form factors, layouts, and switch types, and I have added some of these to my active keyboard rotation (including an IBM XT, RF87UB55, KBP V60MTS-C, Leading Edge DC-3014 with blue Alps, and Northgate Omnipro 101 with white Alps). However, thus far, the HHKB Pro 2 remains my favorite keyboard. Moreover, I like the HHKB layout so much that I have remapped all my other keyboards as closely as possible to a HHKB configuration.
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Great review!
welcome to the cult of the hhkb 8)
dat sound. dat feels.
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Nice review, wont be long before that familiar itch comes back again, in the form of a 55g hhkb.
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Nice review, wont be long before that familiar itch comes back again, in the form of a 55g hhkb.
55G!? Where!?
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Nice review, wont be long before that familiar itch comes back again, in the form of a 55g hhkb.
oh god.
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Congratulations and thank you for the perspective (typed on My HHKB Pro 2).
I do still miss the arrow keys though, probably as I use a TKL board at work all day every day, so I haven't fully acclimatised to the HHKB layout. Plus on a Mac I tend to use things like Ctrl-F and Ctrl-B instead of right and left arrows.
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Nice review, wont be long before that familiar itch comes back again, in the form of a 55g hhkb.
55G!? Where!?
As far as I know, a 55-gram HHKB exists only on the wish list for some of us regarding things we would like to see in a new version of the keyboard.
However, at present, there are 55-gram Topre models available in the Realforce 87u, but then you would have to put a big TKL on your desk instead of a diminutive 60% board.
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Or swap domes
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the GH HHKB circle-jerk continues to spread
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rjrich,
Glad that your keyboard saga has reached a happy conclusion (no pun intended). ;)
For myself, I've got a RealForce 87U EK Edition on the way so I can compare it against my FC660C. Although sorely tempted to try out the HHKB, I think I'm too firmly in the camp that needs dedicated arrow keys (but then again, you thought so as well).
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rjrich,
Glad that your keyboard saga has reached a happy conclusion (no pun intended). ;)
For myself, I've got a RealForce 87U EK Edition on the way so I can compare it against my FC660C. Although sorely tempted to try out the HHKB, I think I'm too firmly in the camp that needs dedicated arrow keys (but then again, you thought so as well).
Please post your impressions of the RF 87u EK edition vs your Leopold FC660C. I am still considering trying out a RF, because some people maintain that the best Topre experience is a RF 87u with 55-gram switches. However, I like the look of the EK edition, including the red LEDs, which I much prefer over blue. For me, I think if I went with a RF, I would like a black case with the white and light gray keycaps.
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Your reviews are always a pleasure to read. Well written, informative, and it is clear you care about your keyboard hobby :) Thank you for continuing to share your reviews with us!
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the GH HHKB circle-jerk continues to spread
I am okay with that.
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Or swap domes
Explain plz?
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Or swap domes
Explain plz?
You put the domes from the 55g realforce into the hhkb
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the GH HHKB circle-jerk continues to spread
watch out for the baby batter.
HHKB SUPREME RACE.
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I think we should get hhkb tats
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i should get a hhkb first >.<
btw did u get your package?
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For me, I think if I went with a RF, I would like a black case with the white and light gray keycaps.
Already been there and done that. Still couldn't like it due to having experienced a GON made keyboard. Now I enjoy the Cherry goodness for some time yet till something else takes my fancy.
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I'm not ashamed to admit that I cried a tear when I read this review. So beautiful. So true. So awesome.
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i should get a hhkb first >.<
btw did u get your package?
Yes I did. Haven't opened it yet however ;)
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nice review. wont be long before i get mine.
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Please post your impressions of the RF 87u EK edition vs your Leopold FC660C. I am still considering trying out a RF, because some people maintain that the best Topre experience is a RF 87u with 55-gram switches. However, I like the look of the EK edition, including the red LEDs, which I much prefer over blue. For me, I think if I went with a RF, I would like a black case with the white and light gray keycaps.
My initial impression with the 87U All-45g was the same as my initial impression with the FC660C, which was a resounding "Meh" followed by "Did I really just spend all that money for this?"
However, just like the FC660C, after a couple of days of banging away on the 87U at the office, whether it a result of breaking in the switches/dome, muscle memory or (for the skeptics) upon further rationalization of the purchase price, things got a lot better. Initially the 87U did feel "mushy" but then again so did my FC660C until it broke in.
The 45g of the 87U is definitely not the same as the 45g of the FC660C. The 87U keypress is lighter and not as snappy as the FC660C. The "thock" on the 87U is also more muted but not by a whole lot. However, still plenty of tactile feedback for me and the lighter and smoother keypress is hopefully less fatiguing for all day typing at the office. That said, I'm keeping the FC660C for home use. It's definitely the more fun keyboard.
In the looks department, I'm still not enamored with all that wasted space at the top of the keyboard and the domed Windows keys but things but it looks a lot snazzier with the optional red Esc key. Also, for you FJ, I didn't know what all your fuss was about with the FC660C keycaps but you're right, the quality of the dye sublimated keycaps on the 87U are at a whole different level. I am now fantasizing about replacing the keycaps on the FC660C.
Would love to try out the 87U All-55g but I think it would end up too heavy for me given that I definitely prefer the lighter MX brown and blue switches than the heavier MX blacks and greens.
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I'm seriously undecided between a HHKB Pro 2 and a Leopold FC660C. The HHKB looks awesome and I think I would definitely prefer it overall but the layout worries me a bit, I have a full-size Filco mj2 (browns) at home and this would be for work. I think going between the layouts would make me less efficient. I also do a lot of design work, Photoshop, InDesign & Dreamweaver and I am a little worried that the lack of dedicated arrow keys would make some of that stuff quite difficult. Can anyone comment, any HHKB users who are designers?
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If you really need arrow keys, go FC660C.
That is the one thing I miss most on my HHKB.
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I'm seriously undecided between a HHKB Pro 2 and a Leopold FC660C. The HHKB looks awesome and I think I would definitely prefer it overall but the layout worries me a bit, I have a full-size Filco mj2 (browns) at home and this would be for work. I think going between the layouts would make me less efficient. I also do a lot of design work, Photoshop, InDesign & Dreamweaver and I am a little worried that the lack of dedicated arrow keys would make some of that stuff quite difficult. Can anyone comment, any HHKB users who are designers?
I use a variety of non-standard software in my work. Recently, I decided to try the HHKB Pro 2, and I adjusted to the layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys rather quickly. However, so far I have only one HHKB Pro 2, which I use in my home office. When I go to my other office and use my IBM SSK, I find it difficult to readjust to the IBM. So, in my case at least, I will need to acquire additional HHKB Pro 2 keyboards to use in my other office or carry the HHKB Pro 2 back and forth. Because I enjoy using the HHKB Pro 2 so much, I will probably get 1-2 more to use at work in addition to the one I already have in my home office.
In your case, if you are not able to have a HHKB Pro 2 in both locations, you should probably go with a keyboard that has a more standard layout, such as the Leopold FC660C.
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the GH HHKB circle-jerk continues to spread
yawn. contgratulations on not liek thing
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If you really need arrow keys, go FC660C.
That is the one thing I miss most on my HHKB.
I'm seriously undecided between a HHKB Pro 2 and a Leopold FC660C. The HHKB looks awesome and I think I would definitely prefer it overall but the layout worries me a bit, I have a full-size Filco mj2 (browns) at home and this would be for work. I think going between the layouts would make me less efficient. I also do a lot of design work, Photoshop, InDesign & Dreamweaver and I am a little worried that the lack of dedicated arrow keys would make some of that stuff quite difficult. Can anyone comment, any HHKB users who are designers?
I use a variety of non-standard software in my work. Recently, I decided to try the HHKB Pro 2, and I adjusted to the layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys rather quickly. However, so far I have only one HHKB Pro 2, which I use in my home office. When I go to my other office and use my IBM SSK, I find it difficult to readjust to the IBM. So, in my case at least, I will need to acquire additional HHKB Pro 2 keyboards to use in my other office or carry the HHKB Pro 2 back and forth. Because I enjoy using the HHKB Pro 2 so much, I will probably get 1-2 more to use at work in addition to the one I already have in my home office.
In your case, if you are not able to have a HHKB Pro 2 in both locations, you should probably go with a keyboard that has a more standard layout, such as the Leopold FC660C.
Thanks guys I think you have confirmed my concerns somewhat, my home machine gets about 50% gaming usage (RTS & FPS) so I don't think a second HHKB would be great for there. From what I hear Topre's are not so great for gaming (If I am wrong on this, I will be moving the board from home to work along with my laptop anyway so that could work). This is my first Topre board and I have to buy blind as I am in South Africa (couldn't even find mx browns to try never mind a Topre switch). The only thing stopping me from Insta buying the FC660C is the keycaps or rather the lack of available replacement keycaps. If it had the same options as the HHKB (white, black, printed key, blank key) with the same high quality keycaps it would just fly off the shelves. Has anyone heard anymore about more colour options? I heard a rumour but have heard nothing more then that and I don't want to buy and then have the one I want released a month or two later.
rjrich you have FC660C as well right. So with that stuff in mind you would recommend the Leopold in my case.
I didn't mention earlier but if it makes a difference I work mainly on OSX at work with some Win 8 thrown in (VM).
Thanks for the advice.
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Very well thought out informative review. :thumb:
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I game with my HHKB, but mostly FPS. The only thing I don't like is the binding for function keys, like F5 for quick save for example. With HHKB (and even with FC660C) you'd need to do Fn-5 for quick save. An extra keypress which might go astray in the heat of battle while you poke around to find the Fn key.
Using an arrow key-less board on a Mac is slightly easier, as you can use standard Ctrl functions to navigate (up to a point). Ctrl-A for beginning of line, Ctrl-E for end of line and so on.
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If you really need arrow keys, go FC660C.
That is the one thing I miss most on my HHKB.
I'm seriously undecided between a HHKB Pro 2 and a Leopold FC660C. The HHKB looks awesome and I think I would definitely prefer it overall but the layout worries me a bit, I have a full-size Filco mj2 (browns) at home and this would be for work. I think going between the layouts would make me less efficient. I also do a lot of design work, Photoshop, InDesign & Dreamweaver and I am a little worried that the lack of dedicated arrow keys would make some of that stuff quite difficult. Can anyone comment, any HHKB users who are designers?
I use a variety of non-standard software in my work. Recently, I decided to try the HHKB Pro 2, and I adjusted to the layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys rather quickly. However, so far I have only one HHKB Pro 2, which I use in my home office. When I go to my other office and use my IBM SSK, I find it difficult to readjust to the IBM. So, in my case at least, I will need to acquire additional HHKB Pro 2 keyboards to use in my other office or carry the HHKB Pro 2 back and forth. Because I enjoy using the HHKB Pro 2 so much, I will probably get 1-2 more to use at work in addition to the one I already have in my home office.
In your case, if you are not able to have a HHKB Pro 2 in both locations, you should probably go with a keyboard that has a more standard layout, such as the Leopold FC660C.
Thanks guys I think you have confirmed my concerns somewhat, my home machine gets about 50% gaming usage (RTS & FPS) so I don't think a second HHKB would be great for there. From what I hear Topre's are not so great for gaming (If I am wrong on this, I will be moving the board from home to work along with my laptop anyway so that could work). This is my first Topre board and I have to buy blind as I am in South Africa (couldn't even find mx browns to try never mind a Topre switch). The only thing stopping me from Insta buying the FC660C is the keycaps or rather the lack of available replacement keycaps. If it had the same options as the HHKB (white, black, printed key, blank key) with the same high quality keycaps it would just fly off the shelves. Has anyone heard anymore about more colour options? I heard a rumour but have heard nothing more then that and I don't want to buy and then have the one I want released a month or two later.
rjrich you have FC660C as well right. So with that stuff in mind you would recommend the Leopold in my case.
I didn't mention earlier but if it makes a difference I work mainly on OSX at work with some Win 8 thrown in (VM).
Thanks for the advice.
Yes, I also have a Leo FC660C. However, I like the HHKB Pro 2 better. Therefore, I have ordered another HHKB Pro 2 so that I can have one of them in my home office and another in my work office. I use Mac OS X, Linux, and Windows7, but my primary OS is Mac OS X.
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FINALLY GOT MY HHKB PRO 2!!!!
When they say that Topre switches have a feeling you cannot explain, they are right. The sound is like light rain drops it is so nice. I got used to where the backspace is, but because of my used to using Colemak, I hit the Control key a lot and that does bother me. I just have to get used to not using the Colemak backspace.
The bottom out is so soft and pleasant, and it feels nothing like a standard Rubber Dome. 55g would be nice as to not bottom out, but at 45g it still feels really nice. The right tactility yet super light, but with that bit of tactile rubber dome resistance, I don't make as many mistakes as my Cherry MX Reds on my Leopold FC660M. The layout is fine even though I don't code, and I really like where the arrow keys are. Really easy to access and better than the Poker X arrow keys. Still trying to get down all these Fn keys, but I will definitely enjoy typing with this.
Typed with a white lettered HHKB Pro 2 (Even though it looks nice printed, I still want to get the blank keycaps)
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FINALLY GOT MY HHKB PRO 2!!!!
When they say that Topre switches have a feeling you cannot explain, they are right. The sound is like light rain drops it is so nice. I got used to where the backspace is, but because of my used to using Colemak, I hit the Control key a lot and that does bother me. I just have to get used to not using the Colemak backspace.
The bottom out is so soft and pleasant, and it feels nothing like a standard Rubber Dome. 55g would be nice as to not bottom out, but at 45g it still feels really nice. The right tactility yet super light, but with that bit of tactile rubber dome resistance, I don't make as many mistakes as my Cherry MX Reds on my Leopold FC660M. The layout is fine even though I don't code, and I really like where the arrow keys are. Really easy to access and better than the Poker X arrow keys. Still trying to get down all these Fn keys, but I will definitely enjoy typing with this.
Typed with a white lettered HHKB Pro 2 (Even though it looks nice printed, I still want to get the blank keycaps)
Glad to see that you are enjoying your HHKB Pro 2! Interesting that you use the Colemak layout as well! I use standard QWERTY, but it is as if everything is exactly where it should be with the HHKB Pro 2. I unlearned many years of muscle memory within the first few hours of using the HHKB Pro 2, and even the arrow keys seem just right.
This board does look especially sleek with blanks, but the dye-sub PBTs are so elegant, it seems right to me to use them, especially for those using the QWERTY layout. Moreover, I have to admit that I sneak a peek at the legends once in a while, especially for the front-printed reminders about the Fn layer.
I've ordered the lettered yellow and orange sets for the RF87u, and I am considering using some of these to demarcate the cursor diamond, right Fn key, and the left Command key, which I have at least temporarily remapped as an extra Fn key. If yellow or orange looks too garish, I will go back to white and light gray and just commit the whereabouts of these special keys to memory.
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FINALLY GOT MY HHKB PRO 2!!!!
When they say that Topre switches have a feeling you cannot explain, they are right. The sound is like light rain drops it is so nice. I got used to where the backspace is, but because of my used to using Colemak, I hit the Control key a lot and that does bother me. I just have to get used to not using the Colemak backspace.
The bottom out is so soft and pleasant, and it feels nothing like a standard Rubber Dome. 55g would be nice as to not bottom out, but at 45g it still feels really nice. The right tactility yet super light, but with that bit of tactile rubber dome resistance, I don't make as many mistakes as my Cherry MX Reds on my Leopold FC660M. The layout is fine even though I don't code, and I really like where the arrow keys are. Really easy to access and better than the Poker X arrow keys. Still trying to get down all these Fn keys, but I will definitely enjoy typing with this.
Typed with a white lettered HHKB Pro 2 (Even though it looks nice printed, I still want to get the blank keycaps)
Curious - I find that I make less mistakes while typing on the HHKB than any other board I have. It is especially nice for responding to long personal emails, which I don't do often, but try to do from the HHKB as the typing experience is so nice.
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Please post your impressions of the RF 87u EK edition vs your Leopold FC660C. I am still considering trying out a RF, because some people maintain that the best Topre experience is a RF 87u with 55-gram switches. However, I like the look of the EK edition, including the red LEDs, which I much prefer over blue. For me, I think if I went with a RF, I would like a black case with the white and light gray keycaps.
My initial impression with the 87U All-45g was the same as my initial impression with the FC660C, which was a resounding "Meh" followed by "Did I really just spend all that money for this?"
However, just like the FC660C, after a couple of days of banging away on the 87U at the office, whether it a result of breaking in the switches/dome, muscle memory or (for the skeptics) upon further rationalization of the purchase price, things got a lot better. Initially the 87U did feel "mushy" but then again so did my FC660C until it broke in.
The 45g of the 87U is definitely not the same as the 45g of the FC660C. The 87U keypress is lighter and not as snappy as the FC660C. The "thock" on the 87U is also more muted but not by a whole lot. However, still plenty of tactile feedback for me and the lighter and smoother keypress is hopefully less fatiguing for all day typing at the office. That said, I'm keeping the FC660C for home use. It's definitely the more fun keyboard.
In the looks department, I'm still not enamored with all that wasted space at the top of the keyboard and the domed Windows keys but things but it looks a lot snazzier with the optional red Esc key. Also, for you FJ, I didn't know what all your fuss was about with the FC660C keycaps but you're right, the quality of the dye sublimated keycaps on the 87U are at a whole different level. I am now fantasizing about replacing the keycaps on the FC660C.
Would love to try out the 87U All-55g but I think it would end up too heavy for me given that I definitely prefer the lighter MX brown and blue switches than the heavier MX blacks and greens.
This is exactly my situation - both keyboards, same reactions. Thanks for the post.
The FC660C is 1 month new, rarely used (at home but I've been working late for weeks), and the RF 87u was a gift gone wrong so I HAVE to keep it :), but already I'm thinking the HHKB2 as a replacement for the RF. I should give them more time to stretch their legs, but I figure resale will be better if they are newer... confusing.
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i want to buy a 60% topre but hhkb layout is too weird...
lf> a topre kbc poker plz
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i want to buy a 60% topre but hhkb layout is too weird...
lf> a topre kbc poker plz
What is weird about the layout?
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i want to buy a 60% topre but hhkb layout is too weird...
lf> a topre kbc poker plz
What is weird about the layout?
I think its awesome!
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with a litttle practice, the hhkb layout is very nice, especially the ctrl and backspace(delete) placement.
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with a litttle practice, the hhkb layout is very nice, especially the ctrl and backspace(delete) placement.
Ctrl and Backspace placement makes more sense than the conventional layout, especially when you have been using it for a while, and/or use a Unix-like operating system.
Arrow keys are a little ... take a little getting used to.
`~ is on the right of the keyboard instead of the left.
Otherwise ok?
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The delete key is what gets me. I use it more than I realized. Having to press fn + ~ to key "delete" is the only cumbersome function layer on the board. Everything else flows like magic.
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The delete key is what gets me. I use it more than I realized. Having to press fn + ~ to key "delete" is the only cumbersome function layer on the board. Everything else flows like magic.
Again, on ehte Mac, Ctrl-D = delete character in front of cursor :)
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The delete key is what gets me. I use it more than I realized. Having to press fn + ~ to key "delete" is the only cumbersome function layer on the board. Everything else flows like magic.
Just to clarify -- when you say "delete" do you mean "forward delete" or "backspace"? Via a DIP switch setting you can convert the big Delete key into Backspace. Forward delete is as you indicated, Fn+`. (Fn + the `~ key). In my case, I use Backspace all too frequently, but I require forward delete only rarely, so that having to use Fn+` is not a problem in my case.
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I got the HHKB a few days ago when my sister came back from a trip to Japan. I didn't ask her to hunt for one in the retail shops and to make it convenient for her, I ordered it from amazon.co.jp. Some said amazon gives a better price than retail - oh well.. I think saving her time is more important.
I have used it for a few days and I must say the famous 'thock' sound is pretty good. It's as good as all the hype made out to be. I am used to MX Blues and MX Clear but I find the HHKB pretty hard - I am not sure - maybe I need to use more. If this is what 45g is, I can't imagine how hard 55g would be. The space bar is really solid. I love the space bar in Matias Quiet Pro and this is as good. No stabiliser sound nor ping or anything.
But the layout really does need some getting used to. I am ok with the backspace (delete) key above the return but I find I need adjustment on the "~" key and the arrow key. The Fn key being on the right of the right shift made it very difficult to use the arrow key. Some suggested that I swap the Fn key with the left Alt via DIP switch but I needed the Alt key too and I find it disconcerting to have two Alt keys on the right side of the board if I do it that way.
I love how light the keyboard is. Definitely interest me in checking out a carrying case so I can put it into the laptop backpack without needing the box it came with. Aesthectically, the black board which I choose doesn't really look good. Maybe it is the PBT caps - I love it being PBT - but it does make the keyboard looked dated. I should have gone with the white/grey- I have been wrestling with this choice but went ahead with the black because I could one day get the white/grey key caps and it does go very well with a black case. At the moment though, the keyboard is not as beautiful as I would have wanted.
Let's see how it holds with more days of use.
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Great review.
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It didn't take me long to get accustomed to the new layout. plus the feeling is great.
only 1 thing to complain about the HHKB is the spacebar though. it's a little lose (rattle) at the right side. other than that, everything is great.
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It didn't take me long to get accustomed to the new layout. plus the feeling is great.
only 1 thing to complain about the HHKB is the spacebar though. it's a little lose (rattle) at the right side. other than that, everything is great.
If it is just a slight rattle and not actually loose, there might be little or nothing to be done. However, if it is actually loose, you could try removing the spacebar and reseating it, pressing firmly on each side and in the center.
The spacebar on mine depresses evenly no matter where I press down. However, if I gently tap on the spacebar, I can detect a slight rattle.
Moreover, most of the keys on the HHKB Pro 2 will "clack" on the upstroke (as opposed to the "thock" on the downstroke. The only way to quiet the clack is to do a silence mod, which entails taking the keyboard apart:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=34972.0
http://deskthority.net/photos-videos-f8/silenced-my-hhkb-pro-2-t6902.html#p134309
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Nice review. Thinking of getting one, if only there I can find one locally and try typing on it first :'(
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Glad you like it, most ppl who you go topre can't go back! Some pictures would have been nice!! :p
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After using my HHKB Pro 2 for some months, I now wish I had a silenced version. I like the downstroke "thock", but I dislike the upstroke "clack". However, I need to get caught up on my finances before I could spend $400 on a keyboard. In addition, the silent version comes only in white, and I prefer the black body with white keycaps. Perhaps someday I will find the time and inclination to do the silencing mod myself.
Another possibility is to get an RF 87u, but they do not have the right combination of features, and I doubt I could ever go back to a standard layout after becoming thoroughly adapted to the ultra-efficient HHKB Pro 2.
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I just got a Poker II, now I want a HHKB 2. Thanks guys, as if i'm not poor enough xD
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I just got a Poker II, now I want a HHKB 2. Thanks guys, as if i'm not poor enough xD
pull the trigger! pull the trigger!
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I'm seriously undecided between a HHKB Pro 2 and a Leopold FC660C. The HHKB looks awesome and I think I would definitely prefer it overall but the layout worries me a bit, I have a full-size Filco mj2 (browns) at home and this would be for work. I think going between the layouts would make me less efficient. I also do a lot of design work, Photoshop, InDesign & Dreamweaver and I am a little worried that the lack of dedicated arrow keys would make some of that stuff quite difficult. Can anyone comment, any HHKB users who are designers?
I use a variety of non-standard software in my work. Recently, I decided to try the HHKB Pro 2, and I adjusted to the layout and absence of dedicated arrow keys rather quickly. However, so far I have only one HHKB Pro 2, which I use in my home office. When I go to my other office and use my IBM SSK, I find it difficult to readjust to the IBM. So, in my case at least, I will need to acquire additional HHKB Pro 2 keyboards to use in my other office or carry the HHKB Pro 2 back and forth. Because I enjoy using the HHKB Pro 2 so much, I will probably get 1-2 more to use at work in addition to the one I already have in my home office.
In your case, if you are not able to have a HHKB Pro 2 in both locations, you should probably go with a keyboard that has a more standard layout, such as the Leopold FC660C.
I switch back and forth between my HHKB and RF boards daily, and have no problems adjusting to the different form factors. Don't even have to think about it. And as a coder, I rely heavily on my navigation keys.
With that said, the FC660 form factor looks intriguing. My son bought one and loves it. Unfortunately, I've not been able to take it for a spin yet.
On the topic of switch weight, I think the 45g switches in the HHKB are perfect. I like them better than the 55g switches in my RF.
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I like the sound and feel of the case-mounted Topres in the HHKB Pro 2 better than those in my metal-plate-mounted Leopold FC660C.
Am I the only person that likes RF topres over hhkb?
Hhkb is too awesome that I deal with it though.
Great review! Welcome to the winning team.
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Here is more about the HHKB Pro 2 layout. This was extremely well researched by Prof. Wada to be intuitive and efficient. I delayed trying a HHKB for a long time because I thought the layout would be too alien. However, after finally trying it , I adjusted to the layout -- and even the absence of dedicated arrow keys -- almost immediately. Now I am so accustomed to it, when I go back to a standard layout keyboard, I have difficulty adjusting.
Because I also like my IBM SSK, especially for the precise feedback it gives, I have remapped the IBM to the HHKB layout:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=56803.0
Recently, I acquired an IBM XT keyboard, and I like the feel of the capacitive buckling spring switches even better than the membrane buckling spring switches in my IBM SSK. It is more problematic to remap the XT like the HHKB, but I am working on an approximation:
http://deskthority.net/keyboards-f2/my-new-ibm-xt-early-impressions-t7793.html
I still like and use my HHKB Pro 2, mainly for its 60% form factor along with its intuitive and efficient layout, but I prefer the feel of BS switches, especially in the IBM XT. I hope that an adventuresome company might someday produce a 60% BS keyboard, and if there should ever be a HHKB Pro 3, it would be nice if it were to have 55-gram silenced Topre switches as standard equipment and a Bluetooth option.
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The layout on the HHKB2 is godlike..just wish it felt a bit better.
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This review confirmed my decision to get an HHKB Pro 2.
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The layout on the HHKB2 is godlike..
what the heck are you saying
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When I first unpacked the box, I instantly liked what I saw. It was the most right-looking keyboard I had ever seen. It seemed exactly the right size, and it was laid out with a beautiful and functional symmetry. Upon lifting the keyboard out of the box, I noticed that the board felt solid despite being lightweight. There was no detectable flex in the case, and no wobble when placed on the desk, either with no extension of the feet, or with the feet in the low or high position.
I have to say that I feel very much the same way. The look of the blank version of the HHKB Pro2 inspired my recent new-found obsession with keyboards. I just wanted to type on something like it so badly! It just begs to be touched. But, I did not opt to buy one in the end, my desire to experiment with resin casting of keycaps caused me to strongly prefer cherry keycaps.
But, I think this review has helped me decide what kind of key board I will buy for work!
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I just wanted to say that I've been enjoying mine for the last few days since I've had it. I would highly recommend the HHKB to anyone that was strongly considering it. It's a tight little board with an amazing feel. It's hard to compare it to anything else, but it's the smoothest typing experience I've had. The "thock" is hypnotic. Put simply, I love my HHKB and have a new daily driver. :)
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The layout on the HHKB2 is godlike..just wish it felt a bit better.
I have been using mine for a couple weeks now and I can honestly say that I love the feel of the Realforce over the HHKB.
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There are many things to like about the HHKB Pro 2, including the 60% form factor, unique yet intuitive and efficient layout, dye-sublimated PBT keycaps, symmetry, and overall styling elegance. However, after using mine for several months, I felt that I still had not found the right sound and feel, and I started to be bothered by the "clack" sound on the return stroke of the keys.
Recently, I have rediscovered IBM Model F keyboards, including the XT, AT, and 122-key Model F. These boards use capacitive buckling spring switches as opposed to the membrane buckling spring switches employed by the Model M keyboards, including the 101-key, the SSK, and the 122-key Model M.
I am typing this with an IBM XT connected to my Mac with a Hagstrom converter box. I have remapped the keyboard to a HHKB/Mac layout. Now I am looking forward to doing an ANSI mod on my AT and 122-key Model F and installing Soarer's Converter in them.
Although my new favorite switch is the IBM capacitive buckling spring, I still prefer the form factor, layout, and appearance of the HHKB Pro 2. Now I think that the perfect keyboard would be a HHKB Pro 2 with a steel plate and IBM capacitive buckling spring switches.
However, to be more realistic, I think a near-perfect board would be the HHKB Pro 2 with silenced 55-gram Topre switches. This could be done by transplanting the domes from a RF 55-gram board to the HHKB Pro 2. Otherwise, for those who like the 45-gram weighting, the HHKB Type S is available.
Back to the IBM world, there was limited production of a HHKB-like Model F that has been dubbed the "Kishsaver". If I could find one of those, my keyboard odyssey might be over. For a while...
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I started to be bothered by the "clack" sound on the return stroke of the keys.
Sounds like you want a silenced HHKB as you mentioned later.
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However, to be more realistic, I think a near-perfect board would be the HHKB Pro 2 with silenced 55-gram Topre switches. This could be done by transplanting the domes from a RF 55-gram board to the HHKB Pro 2. Otherwise, for those who like the 45-gram weighting, the HHKB Type S is available.
I like the way you're thinking :D
Back to the IBM world, there was limited production of a HHKB-like Model F that has been dubbed the "Kishsaver". If I could find one of those, my keyboard odyssey might be over. For a while...
Kishsavers do turn up in classifieds from time to time. There are a few around here who have them.
Edit: see here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=52394.0).
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The layout on the HHKB2 is godlike..just wish it felt a bit better.
I have been using mine for a couple weeks now and I can honestly say that I love the feel of the Realforce over the HHKB.
I think HHKB's layout is perfect to programmers specially those using emacs or vim.
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I actually like that these rubber feet let you slide your keyboard easily, but not too easy that you would do this by accident.