i'm leaning towards B, because if all we need is cnc machine time, we have access to time in myriad places, with up to 3-axis machines at reasonable rates, driven by master machinists.
Yeah. I had a hard time finding my machinist. He has amazing prices but his work takes a very long time to complete.i'm leaning towards B, because if all we need is cnc machine time, we have access to time in myriad places, with up to 3-axis machines at reasonable rates, driven by master machinists.
Like where? I've heard nothing but people saying they can't get shop time for one-offs.
Option a) Purchase a sherline 5400 series CNC-ready mill and design a control system for it. The cost of this will be in the range of 1500$. These mills are extremely high precision, with some care (basically they need to be weighed down). however, they only handle small parts. think 40-65% keyboard cases, and I have no experience with CAM and gcode compilation yet in the subtractive realm. even if i were to purchase the unit tomorrow, it would be months before this service were online.
A may be exciting, but it's the kind of capital investment that literally won't be ready to use for six months to a year, and is really for small small parts work. a lathe might be easier and have a shorter learning curvebut obviously it can't do trays, only things like feet, spacers, etc.
THAT'S MY JOBOption a) Purchase a sherline 5400 series CNC-ready mill and design a control system for it. The cost of this will be in the range of 1500$. These mills are extremely high precision, with some care (basically they need to be weighed down). however, they only handle small parts. think 40-65% keyboard cases, and I have no experience with CAM and gcode compilation yet in the subtractive realm. even if i were to purchase the unit tomorrow, it would be months before this service were online.A may be exciting, but it's the kind of capital investment that literally won't be ready to use for six months to a year, and is really for small small parts work. a lathe might be easier and have a shorter learning curvebut obviously it can't do trays, only things like feet, spacers, etc.
How I read this when I go back through the thread:
"Hey Captain, let's get you really excited then break your heart"
:|
65 on a quality 3-axis (not even a bridgeport) with a skilled machinist in the US is CHEAP. we also have chinese machines. hammer obviously does not use US machinists. and people may not know it but they have been using the heck out of korean machines. where do you think all the kmacs and LZs come from? ;)
Perhaps I haven't read around enough, but how will this stuff work? Someone like me can come up with a design and just send it to you to have it made? I have to pay for fabrication or pay for membership?i will charge per hour of use on the sherline unit. it will take me more hours to get a design produced than a professional with a 3-axis machine. honestly, the hourly rates won't be much better. (technically my time is worth a ridiculous amount per hour) BUT we would definitely have the resource as opposed to me keeping a mental map of all the machines we have access to.
Hmm.. So, at $65-100 ROUGHLY how much would a fairly simple, non-angled case like beast's 60% cost to be machined?more than i know it costs to get it machined at our cheapest 3-axis machining facility, which would be about 250 (rough guess). and tolerances would be worth, and it would still be unfinished. i think it would take me a year to be able to machine his case design on a sherline, 2k+ in tooling investments (1500 is WITHOUT ANY TOOLS. a mill without tools can't mill anything) and thousands of hours of my time developing a control system and learning how to use it.
i cannot house a proper heavy duty cnc machine, period, and i couldn't operate it to any reasonable tolerances. that's not something within the geeckers purview.
honestly, it sounds like everyone wants proper machine work. the way to get proper machine work done is to go to a proper machinist with a big machine. you give them all your work and they give you good rates. it's not to buy a hobbyist sherline that is made for carving out mostly non-metals and then to try to hack together a cnc system for it. now, building relationships with machine shops is something that is WITHIN the geeckers purview. let's say we were to start with the_beast's 60% design. we get a run made prepaid by you guys so that the per unit pre-finished cost is in the 250$ range. then, we finish the units with our own tooling so we can get custom colors. total cost, maybe 350$, but each purchase would increase the geeckers trust fund to where we can purchase more resources and tooling and have more leverage with machinists and others.
now does THAT sound like something you guys would be interested in?
i cannot house a proper heavy duty cnc machine, period, and i couldn't operate it to any reasonable tolerances. that's not something within the geeckers purview.This sounds a lot better.
honestly, it sounds like everyone wants proper machine work. the way to get proper machine work done is to go to a proper machinist with a big machine. you give them all your work and they give you good rates. it's not to buy a hobbyist sherline that is made for carving out mostly non-metals and then to try to hack together a cnc system for it. now, building relationships with machine shops is something that is WITHIN the geeckers purview. let's say we were to start with the_beast's 60% design. we get a run made prepaid by you guys so that the per unit pre-finished cost is in the 250$ range. then, we finish the units with our own tooling so we can get custom colors. total cost, maybe 350$, but each purchase would increase the geeckers trust fund to where we can purchase more resources and tooling and have more leverage with machinists and others.
now does THAT sound like something you guys would be interested in?
this actually sounds more convincing.. a proper business relationship with a professional machinist would be a better dealYES. I was about to say. If we can't get the machines ourselves then a business relationship is what's needed! Make that happen kawa and I'll forever love you (even more than I do already)
i cannot house a proper heavy duty cnc machine, period, and i couldn't operate it to any reasonable tolerances. that's not something within the geeckers purview.
honestly, it sounds like everyone wants proper machine work. the way to get proper machine work done is to go to a proper machinist with a big machine. you give them all your work and they give you good rates. it's not to buy a hobbyist sherline that is made for carving out mostly non-metals and then to try to hack together a cnc system for it. now, building relationships with machine shops is something that is WITHIN the geeckers purview. let's say we were to start with the_beast's 60% design. we get a run made prepaid by you guys so that the per unit pre-finished cost is in the 250$ range. then, we finish the units with our own tooling so we can get custom colors. total cost, maybe 350$, but each purchase would increase the geeckers trust fund to where we can purchase more resources and tooling and have more leverage with machinists and others.
now does THAT sound like something you guys would be interested in?
then the question is how much does the community want and/or need this tooling and how much will they use it?To be completely honest, I'm not sure how much we would use it. The projects are expensive themselves, then you add the tooling costs. May set some people off.
The projects are expensive because of tooling yes?True. Just playing devils advocate.
yah, and it's extremely reasonable to play devil's advocate here. we want to start with investing into technologies that we will use the crap out of, not things we kind of sort of want.If we do get milling services, will you be producing geekhackers products (i.e. aluminum cases, similar to MKC or something) to sell on the site?
what is a powder setup good for? coloring metal, coloring metal plated plastic. that's it. that's all it can be used for. the object you paint has to be 1) conductive 2) withstand 350F or so without warping for about 10-20 minutes. most plastics don't fit this bill. IF we stick with plastics for most things, then this isn't going to help us.
How about organizing some form of design contest? I don't think every single GH member would have a specific design idea all at once.
So what we can do is organize time frames:
Design Month --> a bunch of GHers decide to try and tackle in on a design idea. Those particular members who are involved in design ideas post up their ideas, and let GHers vote on what design the deem best etc. or accomodate for a certain number of designs for that particular round.
Designs then are submitted and refined --> develop a prototype --> communicate with the machinist (get quotes on pricing I suppose).
Once the design has been approved you then launch a legitimate interest check in GHers who are interested in buying in and investing on that design
Production then happens....
GHers get their product =)
Next round occurs etc.
I don't know just brainstorming lol
What's the end goal of all this?
I mean do we really need more 60% cases?
What's the end goal of all this?
I mean do we really need more 60% cases?
What's the end goal of all this?
I mean do we really need more 60% cases?
Do you mean do we need more designs or more physical cases.
I'd say both, even though I don't even have a 60% board.
What's the end goal of all this?
I mean do we really need more 60% cases?
Do you mean do we need more designs or more physical cases.
I'd say both, even though I don't even have a 60% board.
I mean the 60% case market seems pretty saturated.
Maybe some 40% and/or 75% stuff would be interesting.
Or some number pad cases.
running this place is, to be frank, a money and time pit (although a very enjoyable one much of the time) for all involved.
Put up a single banner ad in a place that makes logical sense and hopefully it would at least defray some of the hosting costs?
I got to vote against powder coating as I never quite liked it. Unless done in a very clean setting you get defects and it chips easier than anodized, it increases the size of parts, dulls sharp corners, can't be used on most polymers etc
A CNC mill would be nice but I think we'd need a larger high end machine for many of our purposes. I recon a small CNC laser cutter would be more useful as there are more people who design those types of cases, it is easier to maintain and even a rather small one will quite easily fit a larger keyboard. Frankly, it also allows us to put in cardboard and make storage boxes or whatever we want where I believe a CNC mill would have fewer purposes. We could also engrave legends on caps if we align a bunch of them or whatever.
Edit: I think they are reasonably cheap up to around 80W. Above that the prices start to rocket.
to be clear, we will never ever ever ever ever ever have even a single banner ad or contract with any firm in such a way that would allow them to advertise on our site for a fee. geekhack.org is for geekhackers, by geekhackers, period.running this place is, to be frank, a money and time pit (although a very enjoyable one much of the time) for all involved.
Put up a single banner ad in a place that makes logical sense and hopefully it would at least defray some of the hosting costs? That's not asking a lot. Even if the ads are not profit-generating, we could rotate ads linking to companies with whom we have (and wish to maintain) a good working relationship? I wouldn't mind an ad or two if it made the site less of a money pit.
I got to vote against powder coating as I never quite liked it. Unless done in a very clean setting you get defects and it chips easier than anodized, it increases the size of parts, dulls sharp corners, can't be used on most polymers etcpolymers you really just have to shoot or set in the color you want them to be in. etching and metallization is a huge pita and basically gives you two options: nickel and chrome, and the layer depth (because it's NOT actually anodization) changes dimensions there too, so let's forget polymers. we have access to quite a few keycap houses if we want the polymers to be caps. if we want other polymer things, they are going to have to be cast thermosets or FFM-able. for the thermosets, i did consider a geeckers pressure pot before binge got one, and one of the crucial parts of building the powdercoat setup would be building a good easily transportable and use-anywhere compressor that has a lot of flexibility in terms of pressure capability and tool usage. one doesn't have to follow that with a blast cabinet. one could follow it with another pressure pot. binge and i for example played around with the idea of shipping around degassed partially cured silicone materials for home casting, but i suspect this will be quite tricky, not to ship around silicones, that's easy, but to keep them degassed.
A CNC mill would be nice but I think we'd need a larger high end machine for many of our purposes. I recon a small CNC laser cutter would be more useful as there are more people who design those types of cases, it is easier to maintain and even a rather small one will quite easily fit a larger keyboard. Frankly, it also allows us to put in cardboard and make storage boxes or whatever we want where I believe a CNC mill would have fewer purposes. We could also engrave legends on caps if we align a bunch of them or whatever.i agree that the more i think about it, our _own_ mill is out of the question. the size of our parts is simply too large. and our desired designs too complex. we would be much better served by channeling all our jobs to a single shop and keeping the jobs coming. the problem we have had so far is distribution. like most hackerspaces, there is definitely a certain amount of talk without action around here, and then, a lot of stepping away when the bill comes due. if we want to get reliable machining done we can't do this. we need to have regular solid designs incoming and repeated orders in the shops preferred quantities.
to be clear, we will never ever ever ever ever ever have even a single banner ad or contract with any firm in such a way that would allow them to advertise on our site for a fee. geekhack.org is for geekhackers, by geekhackers, period.
to be clear, we will never ever ever ever ever ever have even a single banner ad or contract with any firm in such a way that would allow them to advertise on our site for a fee. geekhack.org is for geekhackers, by geekhackers, period.
I don't see how geekhack would stop being for geekhackers and by geekhackers if even a single advertising banner were to appear. Why should the website be a money pit? A pit for enthusiasm and time, sure, but why money? If it at least paid for its own hosting, I don't see how that would undermine who we are as a community. I don't see the connection, but, whatever.
I have no problem with an advert at the base of the page, aslong as its not eye-blinding. i.e. It is black or dark colours, or maybe the adverts leave when you sign up? Stops lurking, and you make monies of people coming here and plundering our wealth of knowledge, without giving anything back?
While I'm all for supporting geekhack, I'd rather not make it one of those sites where there's really obnoxious ads and it's constantly bugging you to pay to turn them off. That's just my opinion though.I don't think anyone wants that, and I don't think the admins even considered doing anything like that for a single second.
While I'm all for supporting geekhack, I'd rather not make it one of those sites where there's really obnoxious ads and it's constantly bugging you to pay to turn them off. That's just my opinion though.I don't think anyone wants that, and I don't think the admins even considered doing anything like that for a single second.
Banner ad at the bottom would be totally fine. I just wouldn't want clutter along the sides or anything getting in my face.
We often don't turn to plastic cases for keyboards unless we're talking about acrylic, but wouldn't it be nice just to cast something and make it whatever color you want?
We often don't turn to plastic cases for keyboards unless we're talking about acrylic, but wouldn't it be nice just to cast something and make it whatever color you want?
Wow, Binge, you and I have been thinking exactly the same thing. I would be much more excited about having a cast ABS plastic case for the SmallFry keyboard than a layered acrylic case. Did you notice I asked regack to include some mounting holes in the PCB? A 40% keyboard just makes much more sense with a compact, lightweight housing than something either heavy, or bulky, or both. A keyboard that fits in your pocket would make much more sense housed in a tray-style ABS case.
exactly. the idea is that you would give me a potentially multi-part solid, which i would ffm print and then smooth (i have a small experimental smoother in the works using acetone vapor, but want to attach this problem from the ultrasonic side as well) and i could try to build a cast for you based on my cleaned up FFM positive. it takes advantage of modern polymer technology much better than trying to mill metals, and gives us a path to go metal, because when i do things like build up air compressors, my aim is to do it _right_, and the idea would be to have something that could pressurize or vacuum out a pot, a bead blasting head or a powder sprayer.We often don't turn to plastic cases for keyboards unless we're talking about acrylic, but wouldn't it be nice just to cast something and make it whatever color you want?
Wow, Binge, you and I have been thinking exactly the same thing. I would be much more excited about having a cast ABS plastic case for the SmallFry keyboard than a layered acrylic case. Did you notice I asked regack to include some mounting holes in the PCB? A 40% keyboard just makes much more sense with a compact, lightweight housing than something either heavy, or bulky, or both. A keyboard that fits in your pocket would make much more sense housed in a tray-style ABS case.
Agreed, and it would allow some of us others that don't have access to pressure pots to try and make our own caps as well!
i have found a pressure vessel that will allow us to cast entire keyboards, friends.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#41665k74/=oqdweq
Step up your 3D print game with this beast (http://www.eos.info/systems_solutions/metal/systems_equipment/eosint_m_280) kawa :P:|
Is anodizing equipment a possibility?
But you can powdercoat aluminum? And you can powdercoat other materials. You can only anodize metals.
PS: I think you're right and you can powdercoat anything that conducts electricity. But I'm sure mkawa would've looked into this and can let us know.
yah, and it's extremely reasonable to play devil's advocate here. we want to start with investing into technologies that we will use the crap out of, not things we kind of sort of want.
what is a powder setup good for? coloring metal, coloring metal plated plastic. that's it. that's all it can be used for. the object you paint has to be 1) conductive 2) withstand 350F or so without warping for about 10-20 minutes. most plastics don't fit this bill. IF we stick with plastics for most things, then this isn't going to help us.
And if the trend turns from aluminum to acrylic/plastic, then what do we do with the ano kit?
I prefer metal and aluminum cases too but if tastes change then we invested in something that won't be used and is wasted. Maybe anodization is too short term? I'm just spitting ideas out.
Acrylic and plastic aren't electrically conductive or can withstand high temps?
And if the trend turns from aluminum to acrylic/plastic, then what do we do with the ano kit?
I prefer metal and aluminum cases too but if tastes change then we invested in something that won't be used and is wasted. Maybe anodization is too short term? I'm just spitting ideas out.
Koreans anodized everything, I'm sure an ano. kit would not be used.
What about routing equipment for wood based cases? Nubbs' drop-in case looks awesome. If Koreans are all over the anodized aluminum, let's go do our own thing -- with our wood.
And when Koreans do wood or plastic cases and the trend changes, then what? Do we jump ship and get wood working equipment? Again, I'm just playing devils advocate. I'd actually really like an anodization kit available to GH.
And we have GHers who are already really, really experienced at handling wood.
And we have GHers who are already really, really experienced at handling wood.
And by this, he means nubbinator. His experience with the wood handling is bar none.
PS: I think you're right and you can powdercoat anything that conducts electricity. But I'm sure mkawa would've looked into this and can let us know.yah, and it's extremely reasonable to play devil's advocate here. we want to start with investing into technologies that we will use the crap out of, not things we kind of sort of want.
what is a powder setup good for? coloring metal, coloring metal plated plastic. that's it. that's all it can be used for. the object you paint has to be 1) conductive 2) withstand 350F or so without warping for about 10-20 minutes. most plastics don't fit this bill. IF we stick with plastics for most things, then this isn't going to help us.
Wow. Such new.
cleaning out the ENTIRE TANK FULL OF BOILING SULFURIC ACID FOR ONE KEYBOARD is ... (snipped) ... what this place is for.
You know what would be really cool? A makerbot/3D printer dedicated to prototyping. Want to test out a keycap? Send it to that printer. Want to see how a case might work? Make a scaled model and send it to that printer. What if we use X thickness on an acrylic plate? Send it to the printer.
Kawa can work on his blue-sky, Geekhackers.org projects like the solder spool and the community can print things they want.
You know what would be really cool? A makerbot/3D printer dedicated to prototyping. Want to test out a keycap? Send it to that printer. Want to see how a case might work? Make a scaled model and send it to that printer. What if we use X thickness on an acrylic plate? Send it to the printer.
Kawa can work on his blue-sky, Geekhackers.org projects like the solder spool and the community can print things they want.
AND it could have a realtime video feed so we could all watch it!!
If you got another makerbot, I really like the idea of making soldering tools like a holder or spools as well as mx to alps adapters. We could also produce thin cards or a spudger....something that would work as a tool to pop open stock keyboard cases. Drop in trays for 60% boards too.
The coolermaster tool to open their cases works very well and it's large enough to have a geekhack logo put on it :eek:
The coolermaster tool to open their cases works very well and it's large enough to have a geekhack logo put on it :eek:
Link me to this tool? Can I just buy like 5 of them or something? I've been searching Home Depot for a tool that might work. Tried some plastic drywall joint knives or putty knives which work ok but are a bit thick.
The coolermaster tool to open their cases works very well and it's large enough to have a geekhack logo put on it :eek:
Link me to this tool? Can I just buy like 5 of them or something? I've been searching Home Depot for a tool that might work. Tried some plastic drywall joint knives or putty knives which work ok but are a bit thick.
It comes with the repalcement QFR tops, never seen it anywhere else, but never looked either.
basically.The coolermaster tool to open their cases works very well and it's large enough to have a geekhack logo put on it :eek:
Link me to this tool? Can I just buy like 5 of them or something? I've been searching Home Depot for a tool that might work. Tried some plastic drywall joint knives or putty knives which work ok but are a bit thick.
It comes with the repalcement QFR tops, never seen it anywhere else, but never looked either.
Yeah, that tool works great! And it's only $5, and comes with a free QFR replacement top cover! :P
I fully support any effort geekhackers makes to incorporate casting/molding machines/processes into practice. With certainty I would provide any insight required to get such a practice into working order.
The idea of being able to create molds from 3D printed protos is even more exciting. The combination of some makers and casting/molding would make for some neat creations.
I must also mention that casting is not limited to 3D printed protos. Any positive can be cast as log as it can fit in the pressure chamber. Porous materials must be sealed, but it is not uncommon for wood/ceramic/metal/plastic carved/milled protos have had molds made of the positive and cast reproductions producted.
This is so :cool:
can't have two stars! otherwise i'd give you all the stars man.how about a book and a star? :-*
Option a) Purchase a sherline 5400 series CNC-ready mill and design a control system for it. The cost of this will be in the range of 1500$. These mills are extremely high precision, with some care (basically they need to be weighed down). however, they only handle small parts. think 40-65% keyboard cases, and I have no experience with CAM and gcode compilation yet in the subtractive realm. even if i were to purchase the unit tomorrow, it would be months before this service were online.
How about this: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/new-bigfoot-desktop-cnc-machine-turnkey-system
Not saying it's right for us, just doing some research -- but the size seems respectable, and because it's a kit, the price is lower, $1000, roughly.
From that link: "Larger work area 15" [178 mm] x 13" [330 mm] x 3.7" [94 mm]" -- so that would be capable of
Also, have we ever consider providing a kit for people who want to learn to solder? When I first joined GH nearly a year ago, my first project was to build a Soarer converter. But before I did it, I went to Maker Faire here in NYC, and bought some of their little kits. These are kits for kids, pretty much -- make a 'mousebot' sort of thing. But they're good (great really) for beginners. Considering all the interest in mechanical keyboards, what do you guys think of a numpad kit as an introduction to soldering?
How about this: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/new-bigfoot-desktop-cnc-machine-turnkey-system
Not saying it's right for us, just doing some research -- but the size seems respectable, and because it's a kit, the price is lower, $1000, roughly.
From that link: "Larger work area 15" [178 mm] x 13" [330 mm] x 3.7" [94 mm]" -- so that would be capable of
Ha, I love that you're still about the cnc machine. I would love to see what kawa has to say about this 'cause I still think Gh could really use one.
Also, have we ever consider providing a kit for people who want to learn to solder? When I first joined GH nearly a year ago, my first project was to build a Soarer converter. But before I did it, I went to Maker Faire here in NYC, and bought some of their little kits. These are kits for kids, pretty much -- make a 'mousebot' sort of thing. But they're good (great really) for beginners. Considering all the interest in mechanical keyboards, what do you guys think of a numpad kit as an introduction to soldering?Ha that would be awesome. But maybe not a whole numpad kit? Maybe like a switch tester similar to the Techkeys business card?
I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.
I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.
Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.
Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"
I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.
Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there. :)
No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.
I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.
Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there. :)
No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.
My switch tester is mounted to this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-White-Keyboard-5x5-keys-5-keys-Metal-Panel-/130541363513) and then sits on top of foam. Maybe we could do that? Or....have kawa print cases to go with it?
Regardless of the details, I think a beginner's soldering kit paired with the introductory soldering iron kawa wants to sell seems like a great idea.
I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.
Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there. :)
No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.
My switch tester is mounted to this (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-White-Keyboard-5x5-keys-5-keys-Metal-Panel-/130541363513) and then sits on top of foam. Maybe we could do that? Or....have kawa print cases to go with it?
Regardless of the details, I think a beginner's soldering kit paired with the introductory soldering iron kawa wants to sell seems like a great idea.
Or even this, your item, but with 2x5: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-pc-White-Keyboard-2x5-keys-10-keys-Metal-Panel/130303141925?rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222002%26algo%3DSIC.FIT%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D261%26meid%3D1723729029329168834%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D1088%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D5%26sd%3D130541363513%26 -- hell, if you could get the CNC to cut cardboard even halfway decently you could make a cardboard case for it. Or print the scoring lines on the box it comes in. Or make it a separate kit. Include a random kickass keycap in every box!
Also, talk to Soarer about how he would feel if we put together a converter kit -- that's got to be something people are always looking to do. What if we just bundled the basic components necessary?
I would break out all the components for these kits, and bundle them according to what the user what's to try to do. No case needed? No problem. Provide a video of how to do it. I think that would sell well.
Trying to get a CNC mill to cut cardboard would be almost impossible due to how cardboard cuts when using basically a roatary file.
The ideal way to cut it would be shearing, read: die cut. That is unless you have one with a servo motor on the head that can index a single vertical cutter blade. Which would be prohibitively expensive for what we are planning on doing.
Trying to get a CNC mill to cut cardboard would be almost impossible due to how cardboard cuts when using basically a roatary file.
Correct. Some of the CNC mills out there may have the option of a drag knife, that can be dragged through the cardboard, as opposed to spinning.Quote from: MelvangThe ideal way to cut it would be shearing, read: die cut. That is unless you have one with a servo motor on the head that can index a single vertical cutter blade. Which would be prohibitively expensive for what we are planning on doing.
From my experience, the routing (spinning head) is actually quite a bit more challenging than simply dragging a point. I don't know if the CNC I referenced earlier has that capability, but I'll check. Another thing to consider when buying any of these machines is whether there's a trade show featuring the machine -- get a floor model, a demo model. They've usually seen very little wear and tear, and you can get them for a steal at those shows. I've gotten a few digital printers that way. The manufacturer actually saves money from not having to lug the thing back home. Kawa, before you buy, see if there's a trade show nearby.
Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment. Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base. Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.
Hence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table. Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible. A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.
On top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible. This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good. I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot. And this is the most common graduation they make. For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Machinsts-Levels/Levels/199Z). Granted this is an $800 level. Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.
Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment. Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base. Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.
The one kawa is looking at (and the one I suggested) are both tabletop CNCs, nowhere near half a ton.QuoteHence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table. Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible. A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.
Is a .001 going to sink the usefulness of the mill, for what we want to do with it? Presumably this is why the really large CNC machines (the ones we're not discussing, since they cost in the tens of thousands of dollars) weigh what they do -- to reduce vibration. The CNC I researched has specs here: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/mydiycnc-desktop-cnc-machine -- Melvang, you definitely seem to know more about this than I do. How does this CNC look to you?Quote from: MelvangOn top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible. This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good. I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot. And this is the most common graduation they make. For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Machinsts-Levels/Levels/199Z). Granted this is an $800 level. Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.
Ok, you definitely do know more about setting up a CNC than I do. I've never owned one, but I find them fascinating. Can a CNC-milled wood or aluminum, or acrylic case allow for a .001 margin of error, or does that mean a desktop CNC won't work for us?
EDIT: the drag-knife attachment I was talking about is here (well one of them anyway): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cut-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-for-CNC-Router-End-Mill-/230323725652
It's just a point that sort of self-orients as it's positioned over vinyl, cardboard, etc. That might conceivably put cardboard scoring into our grasp.
i have had an extensive conversation with the shopmaster at sherline and that is what he recommends his machines for. he does NOT recommend his machines for large cuts, period. they are very precise small cut machines.Either way we need to consider that this is going to be in an apartment. Not the kind of setting for a half ton machine sitting on a 3'x3' base. Chances are the floor won't be able to support that kind of point loading.
The one kawa is looking at (and the one I suggested) are both tabletop CNCs, nowhere near half a ton.QuoteHence why the mill that kawa posted about at the begenning of this thread had such a small table. Another thing to consider with these mills is that to keep the tolerances as tight as what we want them to be the mill needs to be anchorded to the floor in such a way to induce as little vibration from outside sources as possible. A somewhat loaded semi hitting a pothole outside the building could possible be enough to through a .001 tolerance right out the window.
Is a .001 going to sink the usefulness of the mill, for what we want to do with it? Presumably this is why the really large CNC machines (the ones we're not discussing, since they cost in the tens of thousands of dollars) weigh what they do -- to reduce vibration. The CNC I researched has specs here: http://www.mydiycnc.com/content/mydiycnc-desktop-cnc-machine -- Melvang, you definitely seem to know more about this than I do. How does this CNC look to you?Quote from: MelvangOn top of the fact that it should also be as close to level as feasibly possible. This does not mean setting a 2' carpenters level on the bed and calling it good. I am talking about using a machinist's level like the one I have in my precision box that has a graduated precision ground vial that has graduations marked out at .005" error per foot. And this is the most common graduation they make. For the truly precise in leveling this is what you need (http://www.starrett.com/metrology/product-detail/Precision-Measuring-Tools/Precision-Hand-Tools/Machinsts-Levels/Levels/199Z). Granted this is an $800 level. Problem with this is that unless you have a very think concrete floor (excess of 6" thick) this can't really be maintained.
Ok, you definitely do know more about setting up a CNC than I do. I've never owned one, but I find them fascinating. Can a CNC-milled wood or aluminum, or acrylic case allow for a .001 margin of error, or does that mean a desktop CNC won't work for us?
EDIT: the drag-knife attachment I was talking about is here (well one of them anyway): http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cut-Sign-Vinyl-Drag-Knife-Bit-for-CNC-Router-End-Mill-/230323725652
It's just a point that sort of self-orients as it's positioned over vinyl, cardboard, etc. That might conceivably put cardboard scoring into our grasp.
The real scary part here is that I am a high school drop out and I really don't know crap about CNC. I do however work as a millwright which means I do know about a lot of different machinery and how to setup, install, repair, remove and replace machinery and parts on said machines. I have worked in manufacturing facilities ranging from grain handling facilities to nuclear power houses working on the actual turbine. That gets a little intense when you are setting a 216,000 pound rotor back in the bearing journals and you have about 0.005" tolerance from the shaft to the bearing face.
So, back to the question at hand. While those desktop CNC setups look nice I don't feel like they would preform that well for a couple of reasons. While they may have upgraded the bearings and the housing with keeping a .00025" step in the position it is still just a plastic housing for a generic dremel tool on top of being a keyless chuck. While I don't think that .001" would mess up a keyboard case, I don't see this having the torque in the motor to get a case turned out that quickly. If even at all due to overheating the motor. I know the one in my dremel gets pretty warm fairly quickly. Also another thing that will be affecting accuracy would the torque in the positioning motors. It says it can hold 2kg/cm. that really isn't a whole lot. I have torqued aluminum phillips head screws that tight when I was working on Seahawks in the Navy. So when it gets to a corner and changes direction if it doesn't wait at the corner for a touch it may not have actually gotten the bit exactly where you wanted it to go so as you work your way down milling out the block you might be able to see a step pattern in the wall. For a 60% case this probably wouldn't even be seen.
On top of all this the small one that you posted in this comment wouldn't even be large enough for a TKL case. Max table travel is listed at 13 inches. Reason being alphas are 15 units wide plus 3 units for the navigation block comes up to 13.5 inches and that is with the navigation block being right next to the alphanumerics. So this would really only work for 60% and 75% boards and the like.
By all means not trying to burst your bubble just saying what I am seeing. Also I wouldn't even try and mill any type of metals on this. I have a feeling that it would just burn the spindle motor out or burn up the bits. I noticed that minimum RPM is listed at 5.000 RPM. At these RPM you will be melting plastic or running so fast that the finish on the cut will be very noticeable. And with switch plates don't forget that Cherry calls for +/-0.002" and a max radius in the corners of .012" This would be a TON of filing corners out by hand.
When I was in high school (graduation year was supposed to be 2000) we did have two table top CNC mills and three table top CNC lathes. Those were actual CNC vertical mills but I have no idea what the name on them were and the programming was all point to point.
From what I can see for this setup about the most you might want to do with it would be some etching and or engraving into woods, plastics, or possible some very light metal engraving.
Please take this all with a grain of salt. I am not an expert at all I just have a good mechanical knowledge.
Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.
Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.
You can swap different tools into the Makerbot head? The 3D printers I'm familiar with only do 3D printing, whether it's SLA, SLS, or FDM. In other words the head cannot accept a cutting tool, whether it be a bit or a blade.
I'm sure you *could* swap tools into the heads on the machines I've seen, since 3D printers are essentially CNC mills with a different head, but not without a bit of modding. Does the Makerbot head allow for swapping like that?
Its looks like these things can cut (with some preparation) a lot of different materials, including vinyl -- which would mean masking for painting, and decals.
You can swap different tools into the Makerbot head? The 3D printers I'm familiar with only do 3D printing, whether it's SLA, SLS, or FDM. In other words the head cannot accept a cutting tool, whether it be a bit or a blade.
I'm sure you *could* swap tools into the heads on the machines I've seen, since 3D printers are essentially CNC mills with a different head, but not without a bit of modding. Does the Makerbot head allow for swapping like that?
I did see a bridgeport style CNC mill that looked like it could be table mounted (stout table required) but the price was just under $10k.
Additive machining will always look rough and pieced together until you do post processing to it. That's just the nature of how the machines work. The replicator mkawa mentioned is a 3D additive machine.
What can subtractive do that additive can't? You mentioned stickers/vinyl cutting but I'm interested in what else you had in mind. I think that additive would be fine for most of the projects (prototyping caps, cases, making MX to Alps adapters) that Geekhackers would want.
i know the makerbot additive designs like the back of my hand and have a very good relationship with MBI, so i would feel quite comfortable putting more money into their tooling, either a scanner (for bridging the gap between CAD and hand sculpting) or another extrusion bot (which i have so many parts for, that we have a wide variety of choices of materials and build types this second bot could be setup for). there are less expensive variants of the makerbot products that i would probably be comfortable with too; the makerfarm machines, ultimakers, etc. the rostock machines i'm not crazy about from a design perspective, but we could take a look at them.
anodizing equipment is out of the question. there isn't going to be a gigantic boiling tank of sulfuric acid in my apartment, period. besides, custom color anodizing is _IMPOSSIBLE_. booting an anodizing tub which is like 20 gallons of stainless steel full of sulfuric acid, putting enough dye in to penetrate a single case, hanging the case, then going away for a while, then coming back, cleaning out the ENTIRE TANK FULL OF BOILING SULFURIC ACID FOR ONE KEYBOARD is completely ridiculous. the fact that mimic actually did this (note that his price included a freaking round trip planet ticket) makes it even more hilarious, and impossible.
you can "anodize" polymers and other weird stuff but what really happens is that you etch the polymer in one stage (a boiling 20+ gallon tub of some kind of acidic etchant), charge and plate it with a friendly metal in the next (two choices: two alloys exist for this, one is chrome and the other has more zinc in it). THEN, you might be able to get a tiny bit of dye onto the plating but you're probably best giving up there. it's a technology that was developed in the 40s-ish i want to say? the edsyn guys have a company that does it for the silverstat, but they literally run one batch a year of like a thousand pieces and that's it. one-off anodizing is basically something that people just hang up on you when you mention because it's such a pain in the ass.
ironically, you can powdercoat those chromed polymers, because they conduct really well after the metallization process. most conductive polymers are a lot tougher to powder. that said, you can metallize them the old fashioned way, with the metallized rustoleum primer (although i imagine it's non-ferrous; there has to be one of those things that's conductive..). the thing with polymers though is that they just come in different colors. you're much much better off just making your polymer thing in the color you want.
anyway, for metal, powdercoating is the most flexible permanent-ish painting process and the only one other than large batch clear anodize or one color anodize that's within reach for us. the only thing more accessible is the exact same room temp wet acrylic paints that photoelectric uses for plastics, and just like plastics, you have to do a lot of really good prep-work (you still need the blasting cabinet for example) to get good results. imo, if you're going to go through that much trouble, you might as well powder it. you have a wider variety of texture, reflectivity, and color, for the most part.
anyway, the reason i was leaning toward coloring processes is that we love to be creative with color here. what's the difference between every keycap set? basically color schemes. there are shape and material differences, but the primary driver in differentiation is color. see: unicorn vomit, clicklack skulls, lz and hammer's alu cases, etc. that said, notice that people had to sit down and design the stuff to color in all cases. my goal is to serve the community, and i'd like that not to mean "let me try to guess what the community will use" , but a bit fat active conversation with everyone with arguments and keyboard baby mama drama (thank mrs hashbaz for that one by the way), all of it. let's go! what do you want? just because i smack you down with "no, that will cost 100,000$, doesn't mean you can't try again or shoot another toward the moon.
hell, shooting the moon is what this place is for. have you seen matt3o's qfr top cover project yet? if not, GO GO GO. SO AWESOME YES
I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.
Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.
Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"
I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.
Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there. :)
No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.
I was just thinking that if its truly a beginner's kit, maybe soldering four switches is less intimidating than twenty.
Oh absolutely -- and more affordable. Call it the 'Level 0 Keyboard Maker Kit' -- and it would be small enough to route out several at once.
I have no idea if that's feasible, though -- just an idea. It would be cool if you could program it to launch four applications. Or make one of the keys a function key, so six applications/macros/whatever.
Krogenar
Level 1 in "Making"
Level 100 in "Conjecturing Wildly"
I think this is actually a great idea. We design a little 4x5 numpad PCB kit with the (ATmega32U4) controller presoldered and preprogrammed. All the corresponding electronics are through-hole and would be included in the kit. Also, PCB-mount switches would be provided in the kit. For the true beginner, have everything but the switches soldered already. For a little bit more advanced kit, the builder would have to solder the through-hole resistors, capacitors, USB connector, etc.
Sometimes, soldering ~4 switches just isn't enough practice. You need to get into a groove, and by the time you've soldered that 20th switch in place, you've gotten there. :)
No need to include a case. This would make a great little kit for a beginner, and in the end you have something you built which you can actually use. Throw some keycaps on it, place it on a mat of some kind, and you're running your self built numpad.
I am actually looking forward to the GHpad because I feel like it is small enough to feel manageable as a first project, but results in something awesome that you can continue to mod and build cases for.
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/r8fOv1O.png)
- ATMEGA32u4 in QFN packaging with 0402 componentsShow Image(http://i.imgur.com/mkz8xGy.png)Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/mRwjbvB.png)
Show Image(http://i.imgur.com/VmCgFQo.png)
It would be even bettter if it became a community driven effort to create a GeekHack Universal Controller... but who would hold onto extra stock?
It would be even bettter if it became a community driven effort to create a GeekHack Universal Controller... but who would hold onto extra stock?
I'm all for this. It's funny that you posted that here, because I've been thinking for a while now that instead of purchasing Teensys, we need to have a Geekhack branded breakout board for the standard controller/electronics that we are putting onto all these new keyboard designs. It just makes sense that, instead of having everything soldered to the PCB, you have a standard pinout to use, and a controller that plugs into that pinout. The Teensy is limited in that is doesn't provide breakout pins for the USB connection. If you want to use the USB connector on the board, you have to use a kludge and "jumper" it, so to speak. As long as the matrix pinout is standardized, we could have 32U2, 32U4, or 32A controllers on the GH controller daughterboard, it doesn't really matter. I don't know if it HAS to be QFN and 0402 packaging, because that is really small to solder by hand.