geekhack
geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: Linkbane on Wed, 02 October 2013, 21:13:32
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Hello!
I was talking to a friend of mine who is much older than me, and who has an IBM keyboard with a cable that he describes as about the size of an XLR cable but with five pins, I would assume that this is a 5-pin DIN and therefore on a Model F, as I've only heard of RJ45 and PS/2 on the Model M (he remembers it as a 1980's model, which I think had Models M and F in production).
Has anyone had success in their abilities to convert the aforementioned cable to USB?
Thanks!
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Said connector also comes on Model M 122s along with Model F 122s. If it has a metal back, it's 100% a Model F 122. It will also say Model F on the label.
Both can be converted via Soarer's to usb.
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Said connector also comes on Model M 122s along with Model F 122s. If it has a metal back, it's 100% a Model F 122. It will also say Model F on the label.
Both can be converted via Soarer's to usb.
Ah, thanks for the info. I looked around and found Soarer from Deskthority, but is there an easy way that I could buy or acquire a converter?
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There's not much to it - if you buy some female to female dupont cables via ebay, and buy a teensy with pins presoldered, you don't have to do any soldering and just connect them up internally via 4 of those wires. No need for any soldering and stuff.
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If it's really as large as he describes, is there any chance that it's an AT cable (which I've also heard of on Model F's)? In that case, I would assume it would be much easier to convert..
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What Parak said, works flawlessly for me.
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If it's really as large as he describes, is there any chance that it's an AT cable (which I've also heard of on Model F's)? In that case, I would assume it would be much easier to convert..
The problem is that the terminal keyboards are not 100% compatible with PS/2 or AT, so if you hook it up directly to your PS/2 port (or through an AT adapter) it wont work properly.
I would assume that this is a 5-pin DIN and therefore on a Model F, as I've only heard of RJ45 and PS/2 on the Model M (he remembers it as a 1980's model, which I think had Models M and F in production).
Some of the early Ms used the 240° DIN-5 connector too.
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I have built internal Teensy mounts and put them in a cavity in the case (the Teensy really is very small) which requires wiring directly to the controller, and have also built an outboard box enclosure for it. If you go that route, you will need a corresponding female connector to match what the existing cable end has. they came with a variety of hookups.
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0 (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=17458.0)
http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy.html (http://www.pjrc.com/store/teensy.html)
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This may be helpful, but does not include the bigger older connectors such as serial.
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I have no idea what I'm doing.
Could you provide a step-by-step guide for someone as uninformed as myself? I'm really not quite sure what the majority of this terminology is. I've seen the Teensy and I'm not quite sure of its function, nor how I'd fiddle with the wires.
EDIT: I see the wiring information now. So, I would strip the wire and connect the cable's wires to the ones indicated in the GH thread?
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You have to determine what cable connector you have.
An "AT" connector is the large one that can be used directly with an AT-to-PS/2 adapter. That will be found on the Model F AT and early Model Ms without any further work.
The Model F XT used a similar-looking connector but cannot be used without a converter, such as the one that Soarer created with the Teensy breakout board.
Soarer's Converter can also be used with most terminals, but will have to figure out how to wire 4 connections properly.
The Teensy has 2 pins marked "Ground" and "Vcc" which drive the device. The other 2 connections are "Data" (to pin "PD0" on the Teensy) and "Clock" (to pin "PD1").
Soarer provided excellent documentation with his guide, but I think that you have to download and unzip it.
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The old IBM terminal keyboards, as well as keyboards for the XT and AT protocols all used large circular DIN connectors. They are about the same size, but differ on the pins or pinout. Some are 270 degree and some are 180 degree.
AT and XT both used 180 degree DIN, which I think might be the same as what some MIDI equiptment uses today.
Terminal used 270 degree DIN, so there's less choice of plugs and sockets.
You have two choices in converting it. One is to mount the teensy internally and remove the old cable entirely, using a USB instead. The other option is to keep the original cable and build a converter box for it. The first option is likely cheaper. I chose the second option for my model F, and you can see the result here
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39833.msg789867#msg789867
You can see poxeclipse's effort here
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=39833.msg787473#msg787473
If you go this route, I recommend not making the USB cable removable, as it greatly simplifies case construction.
It is likely easier and cheaper to mount the teensy internally.
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Some basic concepts:
The teensy is a microcontroller.
We are using it with code by forum member soarer (on GH and DT) that converts terminal code outputs (as well as XT and AT and PS/2 ) to USB.
Like many such projects, there are lots of options. What layout do you want? Do you want to use the teensy internally or externally? You shoulkd think about this before you get started
To make it, you (basically) wire up inputs from the keyboard, and use the mini USB output on the teensy. Then you install soarer's code by "flashing" the teensy.
Questions and concerns like: "what wires go where" and "how do I flash the teensy" are easily answered by readong soarer's guide and documentation
The latest version is 1.12 You need to download 1.10 files and the 1.12 update. You can probably just use 1.10 if you want (I'm using 1.01 and it's working for me)
http://deskthority.net/workshop-f7/xt-at-ps2-terminal-to-usb-converter-with-nkro-t2510.html
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Oh, and the only IBM model F's with AT connectors are the "model F AT" and possibly the 1398733 "space unsaver" (the latter might be terminal, I've never owned one to check, and I've seen pictures of ones with PS2 cables which doesn't make sense, considering it came out before PS/2 and the connector on the 3290 plasma terminal it came with is some sort of circular DIN connector. I suspect it's terminal (270 degree DIN), but I don't know for sure.)
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Alright, so I talked with my friend and received confirmation that it was indeed a 5-pin DIN connector, and therefore I'm wondering if something as detailed in here: http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017 (http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017) would be fine to convert to PS/2 which would then be converted to USB. If I have to, I will do the Soarer, but he has a complete IBM set and most likely wouldn't want me doing anything with the cables.
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Alright, so I talked with my friend and received confirmation that it was indeed a 5-pin DIN connector, and therefore I'm wondering if something as detailed in here: http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017 (http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017) would be fine to convert to PS/2 which would then be converted to USB. If I have to, I will do the Soarer, but he has a complete IBM set and most likely wouldn't want me doing anything with the cables.
There are several "5-pin" connectors, the XT and AT use the "180 degree" type and the F-122 and some M-122s use the "240 degree" type.
You really need to nail down what keyboard you are talking about. It might just plug-and-play, or you may have to do some serious work. In any case, building an outboard Teensy unit with a "standard AT" socket is probably the way to go. You would be set for many of the old standard boards.
If you had to build more cables from there, it would be easy. I was able to buy a female-PS/2-to-male-AT, but I had to make a female-DIN-240-to-AT and a female-8P8C(aka RJ45)-to-male-AT.
I suppose that I should make a female-ADB-to-male-AT since I think that this works on Apple gear, and if a serial-to-AT would actually work I may make one of those, but who knows whether I will ever bother with one of those boards. It is always good to have, if you stumble across one it always sells better if it is "tested and working"
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Oh, and the only IBM model F's with AT connectors are the "model F AT" and possibly the 1398733 "space unsaver" (the latter might be terminal, I've never owned one to check, and I've seen pictures of ones with PS2 cables which doesn't make sense, considering it came out before PS/2 and the connector on the 3290 plasma terminal it came with is some sort of circular DIN connector. I suspect it's terminal (270 degree DIN), but I don't know for sure.)
The 104 uses a terminal connector. After all, it is a terminal keyboard :D There were two versions in fact - later ones used the regular terminal DIN connector, and the older ones used a DSUB connector, and probably needs a controller replacement á la the beam spring converter boards.
Alright, so I talked with my friend and received confirmation that it was indeed a 5-pin DIN connector, and therefore I'm wondering if something as detailed in here: http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017 (http://www.belkin.com/us/p/P-F2N017) would be fine to convert to PS/2 which would then be converted to USB. If I have to, I will do the Soarer, but he has a complete IBM set and most likely wouldn't want me doing anything with the cables.
Unless it's an AT Model F, you will need to make a Soarer adapter. As has been pointed out, you can make a get a 240° DIN-5 socket, and attach it to the Teensy running Soarer's code, so you wont need to make any modifications to the keyboard or its cables at all (or even open the keyboard up)
(If it's an AT keyboard, it will say 'Personal Computer AT' on the silver badge with the IBM logo on it.)
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Hmm, I'll see. I'm not completely sure that it's a Model F, so I'll get back to everyone on Monday when I have the chance.
Thanks all for the help.
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Update, got to try out the keyboard and it was indeed a Model F, as shown by my friend looking up the model number and the feel of the board itself. I wasn't blown away as I expected, but it was still a very great feeling keyboard which I like more than Reds, but a bit less than Blues. It feels linear (between the red/black in stiffness) until the bottom, where there's a small bit of tactility. Personally I think that I would prefer a Model M, but I appreciate the beautiful Model F he has.
Only complaint is the layout. No dedicated directional keys and the odd control/alt/caps lock placement threw me off. The weight was nice! It felt like the entire case was made of steel!
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Update, got to try out the keyboard and it was indeed a Model F, as shown by my friend looking up the model number and the feel of the board itself. I wasn't blown away as I expected, but it was still a very great feeling keyboard which I like more than Reds, but a bit less than Blues. It feels linear (between the red/black in stiffness) until the bottom, where there's a small bit of tactility. Personally I think that I would prefer a Model M, but I appreciate the beautiful Model F he has.
Only complaint is the layout. No dedicated directional keys and the odd control/alt/caps lock placement threw me off. The weight was nice! It felt like the entire case was made of steel!
So can we assume that it is the Model F XT? Was a converter involved?
That one has a thick plastic top shell and a metal bottom. It has the best feel of them all, but the layout is bonkers.
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No converter, sadly, I just got to poke at it unplugged. It did have a cable which is the same in this picture:
(http://www.electronicplus.com/images/products/PCM-2420-06.jpg)
Very thick, for sure. The plastic made any keyboard I'd ever seen or heard of feel like it was made out of foil!
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Were you able to determine what keyboard it was?
Are you going to be able to buy it from your friend?
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So what was the model number? Pictures of said board? The key feel impressions make me quite suspicious...
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So what was the model number? Pictures of said board? The key feel impressions make me quite suspicious...
He had it in box, I shall email him. But I'm certain that when he says something is so, it is so.
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So what was the model number? Pictures of said board? The key feel impressions make me quite suspicious...
He had it in box, I shall email him. But I'm certain that when he says something is so, it is so.
Remember that the Model F XT will probably not have any external markings. Neither will the F AT, although the metal badge will probably say "AT"
The F-122 will have a big label in the back that says "Model F"
The "weird" terminal boards could be anything, but the AT-style 180 degree connector is probably not for a terminal.
PS - if it was a Model F, the key feel impression could hardly have been anything but "Wow"
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So what was the model number? Pictures of said board? The key feel impressions make me quite suspicious...
He had it in box, I shall email him. But I'm certain that when he says something is so, it is so.
Remember that the Model F XT will probably not have any external markings. Neither will the F AT, although the metal badge will probably say "AT"
The F-122 will have a big label in the back that says "Model F"
The "weird" terminal boards could be anything, but the AT-style 180 degree connector is probably not for a terminal.
PS - if it was a Model F, the key feel impression could hardly have been anything but "Wow"
The keyboard is still mated with the IBM computer bought in the early 80's. It's quite certainly a Model F, but there is a model number on the box.
It was unique, and it was certainly not a BS, as I've tried M before. It was near linear, and then had the very distinct metallic sound that I've heard in videos of it.
It's just not quite enough tactility for me. There's a ping, but I'd say that the collapse of the BS suits be better.
The layout was unique. Caps Lock/Ctrl were swapped, there were no directional keys besides those on the numpad, it didn't have a Pause/Break for some reason, and none of the keys were large at all; the keys which were longer than the others were stepped so that they were only the size of one key. The spacebar was some sort of monstrous 9x.
(http://www.clickykeyboard.com/2013/apr13/001.jpg)
Here's the image of the layout. It's nearly the same, except the knobs for the feet are larger (like this)
(http://cpkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/model-f-foot-1024x594.jpg)
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It was unique, and it was certainly not a BS, as I've tried M before. It was near linear, and then had the very distinct metallic sound that I've heard in videos of it.
It's just not quite enough tactility for me. There's a ping, but I'd say that the collapse of the BS suits be better.
I think there may be quite a bit of confusion here. Model Fs are definitely buckling spring - they are in fact the first implementation (that we know of) of the buckling spring mechanism from IBM.
The layout was unique. Caps Lock/Ctrl were swapped, there were no directional keys besides those on the numpad, it didn't have a Pause/Break for some reason, and none of the keys were large at all; the keys which were longer than the others were stepped so that they were only the size of one key. The spacebar was some sort of monstrous 9x.
Here's the image of the layout. It's nearly the same, except the knobs for the feet are larger (like this)
Many keyboards copied the IBM XT layout, as a means of making cheaper alternatives to the XT Model F keyboard. None of the clones used buckling spring, however, as at the time IBM was the only one that did. I strongly suspect that you were looking at a clone, but of course, only actual pictures will tell the story...
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It was quite definitely an IBM. And I understand that F used buckling spring, but with a capacitative mechanism.
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So was it one of these then?
(http://deskthority.net/w/images/8/81/83key.jpg)
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It looks pretty much like that, but I thought that the numpad/alphabet was separated. I could be wrong though, as I was in the middle of a tournament when I saw it. Otherwise, looks the same.
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It looks pretty much like that, but I thought that the numpad/alphabet was separated. I could be wrong though, as I was in the middle of a tournament when I saw it. Otherwise, looks the same.
If the numpad is separated, it is probably the F AT. That is a vastly more desirable board and will plug in to a modern computer without additional electronics. It will have an all-plastic case instead of a metal bottom pan.
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F ATs look like this
http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:IBM_Model_F_AT.jpg (http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:IBM_Model_F_AT.jpg)
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It looks pretty much like that, but I thought that the numpad/alphabet was separated. I could be wrong though, as I was in the middle of a tournament when I saw it. Otherwise, looks the same.
If the numpad is separated, it is probably the F AT. That is a vastly more desirable board and will plug in to a modern computer without additional electronics. It will have an all-plastic case instead of a metal bottom pan.
To aid in identification, the XT, AT and "model C" keyboards do not have metal bottom pans. Neither do some others, but they are less common.
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It didn't have a metal pan for sure, but it did have the stepped keys as in the earlier picture.
Maybe it was just the one in the first picture and I'm delusional about the separation. Parat, what kind of board is that?
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To aid in identification, the XT, AT and "model C" keyboards do not have metal bottom pans.
I have had at least 6-8 XTs and all of them had metal bottoms.
The "standard" 83-key versions with attached black "AT" style connectors, that is.
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Here's the model number.
B 6340864-1
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I'm inclined to say that's an AT F, then (what is with people saying F AT? It doesn't make any damned sense...I suppose you say Taurus Ford or One HTC too)
The number doesn't directly hit on anything, but AT Fs seem to be in the range of numbers that begin with 6 (along with a boatload of other keyboards, of course), and the original-issue PC keyboard, retroactively known as the XT F, would be a number starting with 1...not sure what they did with the keyboards shipped with the XT itself though.
If there's a gap between the numpad and the rest of the keys, it's an AT F. XT and AT have the same connector but one requires more advanced conversion (still far from complicated though).
If it has lock LEDs (num, caps, scroll), it's AT.
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I'm inclined to say that's an AT F, then (what is with people saying F AT? It doesn't make any damned sense...I suppose you say Taurus Ford or One HTC too)
The number doesn't directly hit on anything, but AT Fs seem to be in the range of numbers that begin with 6 (along with a boatload of other keyboards, of course), and the original-issue PC keyboard, retroactively known as the XT F, would be a number starting with 1...not sure what they did with the keyboards shipped with the XT itself though.
If there's a gap between the numpad and the rest of the keys, it's an AT F. XT and AT have the same connector but one requires more advanced conversion (still far from complicated though).
If it has lock LEDs (num, caps, scroll), it's AT.
He told me that it came with an XT computer.
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To aid in identification, the XT, AT and "model C" keyboards do not have metal bottom pans.
I have had at least 6-8 XTs and all of them had metal bottoms.
The "standard" 83-key versions with attached black "AT" style connectors, that is.
Right, I remember now. What was throwing me off was that it's a different shape and colour as the terminal keyboards' metal bottom.
I'm inclined to say that's an AT F, then (what is with people saying F AT? It doesn't make any damned sense...I suppose you say Taurus Ford or One HTC too)
The brand is still IBM. A better analogy would be like calling it an Acura cupholder RSX. Though I agree, brand computer Peripheral makes more sense than Brand peripheral computer, as "IBM model F AT" is more common. Perhaps it started with the SOV vs SVO language difference?
Anywya, what we call the IBM 3178 (I think that's the right number, they all start to run together after a while) keyboards "model C keyboard" is perhaps even worse.
The number doesn't directly hit on anything, but AT Fs seem to be in the range of numbers that begin with 6 (along with a boatload of other keyboards, of course), and the original-issue PC keyboard, retroactively known as the XT F, would be a number starting with 1...not sure what they did with the keyboards shipped with the XT itself though.
For reference a common PN for the IBM XT keyboard (model F) is 1501100 printed on the box.
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There definitely was a long string of numbers headed by '1' on the box, but I can't remember the rest. I'll be back with pictures later in the week.
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I'm inclined to say that's an AT F, then (what is with people saying F AT?)
I would look at a hierarchy like: IBM / Model F / AT in a manner similar to Ford / Taurus / SHO.
To describe the Model F 122-key terminal keyboard in a shorthand manner as an "F-122" would make its siblings F-XTs and F-ATs.
But you are right, this is loose and sloppy.
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Well, if the keyboard came with an XT (a true IBM XT...not an XT clone which would often be described as an XT much the same as all facial tissues are Kleenex)...it's probably XT.
As an aside to the purpose of the thread, perhaps the naming discrepancy is more to do with purpose rather than naming...I would say "XT Model F" because it is a Model F keyboard which is compatible with the XT protocol, or which is intended for use with the IBM PC XT...to me "XT" is not part of the name of the keyboard at all, it's almost an adjective.
(this debate happened once before, long ago, but at some point I purged almost 2500 of my own posts before the delete button was removed, and I didn't deem that conversation important enough to leave behind)
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The XT F's I saw around have PN: 1801449 and 1501100. The one I'm typing on now is an 1801449. From outside, they look identical, maybe the internals are different.