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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: siawase on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:18:05

Title: This cherry switch
Post by: siawase on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:18:05: I fond one cherry switch. It just like MX but also like the switch from TaiWan witch called "taibai switch"
now have some picture
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220751m1gbe5o6k75picob.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220803dwe4otqlycyoqzoi.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220805lwwjefd4w5qwwd0n.jpg)
well my english is not so good . So some of the answer i can understand.
I got more pictures for all of you. I think this clear switch is old cherry MX switch. And "taibaizhou" is just follow it.
This keyboard is product in Japan. The paper on it tell us . 59 12 21 is 昭和５９年　(1984 12 21)
Just have a look
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/30/215658llalli0f0iu77rur.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/30/215707lyd904uvnyzd6w6r.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/30/215712d7whnxlpwavlaswr.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/30/215715v3zfj8za7312xx4j.jpg)
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/30/215719npeufrtrrg1et5r2.jpg)
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: siawase on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:26:36: Quote from: siawase on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:18:05
I fond one cherry switch. It just like MX but also like the switch from TaiWan witch called "taibai switch"
now have some picture
Show Image
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220751m1gbe5o6k75picob.jpg)

Show Image
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220803dwe4otqlycyoqzoi.jpg)

Show Image
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220805lwwjefd4w5qwwd0n.jpg)
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:36:25: So these are the fake clears?
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:45:21: Those look look regular Clears to me...

People are getting paranoid because they think that just because the logo on the housing isn't "exactly" the same as it used to be that they are automatically "fake" switches. If they were fake, would we have heard of copyright infringement issues between Cherry and the "fake" manufacturers? I'm pretty sure it isn't illegal to make "fake" switches (hence them Kailh switches), but to brand them as Cherry's would be.

Just making observations...
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: MKULTRA on Tue, 29 October 2013, 09:03:53: Quote from: Computer-Lab in Basement on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:45:21
Those look look regular Clears to me...

People are getting paranoid because they think that just because the logo on the housing isn't "exactly" the same as it used to be that they are automatically "fake" switches. If they were fake, would we have heard of copyright infringement issues between Cherry and the "fake" manufacturers? I'm pretty sure it isn't illegal to make "fake" switches (hence them Kailh switches), but to brand them as Cherry's would be.

Just making observations...
Highly doubt we would have heard of anything.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: esoomenona on Tue, 29 October 2013, 09:04:55: Fake! They're all fake. You heard it hear first.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Tue, 29 October 2013, 14:44:27: Or is it really an old linear clear? Vintage linear clears are the mega bomb.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 29 October 2013, 19:18:23: Definitely fake.

The static contact plate has some sort of rectangular insert on the back, which isn't on any MX switch I've ever seen (I just opened a red and a clear to compare).

Also, I just noticed that the movable leaf is the wrong shape (the fold at the top is too short and wide), and the contact nub is far too high up compared to where Cherry put the crosspoint prism.

The shell looks remarkably accurate for a clone, though.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: nubbinator on Tue, 29 October 2013, 23:16:51: Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Tue, 29 October 2013, 19:18:23
Definitely fake.

The static contact plate has some sort of rectangular insert on the back, which isn't on any MX switch I've ever seen (I just opened a red and a clear to compare).

Also, I just noticed that the movable leaf is the wrong shape (the fold at the top is too short and wide), and the contact nub is far too high up compared to where Cherry put the crosspoint prism.

The shell looks remarkably accurate for a clone, though.

I have vintage blacks desoldered from Wyse terminal boards with the same identical leaf. Since it was soldered in with the other style of leaf and given the age (late '80s), I highly doubt it's a counterfeit. Odds are it's just a different style or Cherry sourced some parts from different places, resulting in some being slightly different.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 October 2013, 04:35:42: Interesting — got any photos of it? It's not just the leaf shape, but the whole design of the crosspoint mechanism on both contacts, which is nothing like anything I've seen from Cherry.

The question for siawase is: Does it say "Cherry" on it? I've yet to see evidence of clones with Cherry's name on them.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Oobly on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:13:01: Looks like a GENUINE old linear clear MX to me. Why do people persist in believing there are fakes out there. Do you WANT there to be fakes? If it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, works like a duck and has the duck logo on.....
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: 悬壶济世 on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:25:20: Quote from: siawase on Tue, 29 October 2013, 08:18:05
I fond one cherry switch. It just like MX but also like the switch from TaiWan witch called "taibai switch"
now have some picture
Show Image
(http://www.pcwaishe.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=525323&page=1#pid6082071)

Show Image
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220803dwe4otqlycyoqzoi.jpg)

Show Image
(http://42.120.41.196/data/attachment/forum/201310/28/220805lwwjefd4w5qwwd0n.jpg)

Made in Taiwan, but stopped production for a long time, is a cherry lovers made,
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:39:18: Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:13:01
Looks like a GENUINE old linear clear MX to me. Why do people persist in believing there are fakes out there. Do you WANT there to be fakes? If it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, works like a duck and has the duck logo on.....

So there are fake ducks out there too? Where do I have to keep my eyes out? In a restaurant? Or at a park, with a loaf of bread?
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Zeal on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:41:11: What does the OP mean by "Taibai Switch"? Does he mean "Tai bai Zhou", which literally means "Too white (of a) Stem"

And Cherry made Linear Clears? :eek:
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: SpAmRaY on Wed, 30 October 2013, 06:54:17: Quote from: esoomenona on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:39:18
Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:13:01
Looks like a GENUINE old linear clear MX to me. Why do people persist in believing there are fakes out there. Do you WANT there to be fakes? If it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, works like a duck and has the duck logo on.....

So there are fake ducks out there too? Where do I have to keep my eyes out? In a restaurant? Or at a park, with a loaf of bread?

People even collect the fake ducks

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: laffindude on Wed, 30 October 2013, 07:24:00: Quote from: Zeal on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:41:11
What does the OP mean by "Taibai Switch"? Does he mean "Tai bai Zhou", which literally means "Too white (of a) Stem"

And Cherry made Linear Clears? :eek:

No. Taibai is short for Taiwanbaizhou (white switch).

I think the switch is this: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear_(Hirose)
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 October 2013, 07:51:52: Quote from: Oobly on Wed, 30 October 2013, 05:13:01
Looks like a GENUINE old linear clear MX to me. Why do people persist in believing there are fakes out there. Do you WANT there to be fakes? If it looks like a duck, feels like a duck, works like a duck and has the duck logo on.....

Because there are tons of Cherry MX clones out there!

The current type on the market is the Kaihua PG1511 series (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Kaihua_PG1511_series), as used in the Rapoo V7.

Chicony have confirmed to me personally that they bought the http://deskthority.net/wiki/Aristotle_Cherry_MX_clone (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Aristotle_Cherry_MX_clone), which Aristotle have confirmed to me is no longer in production (which is what Chicony also said). These are the white clicky switches in the KB-5191/5192 amongst other keyboards.

Here's alps.tw's large collection of Taiwanese MX clones:

http://kbtalking.cool3c.com/article/18452

One of those at least is an Aristotle (matches those used by Chicony), and at least one other design from that page has been found in a Chicony, suggesting that Aristotle may have changed design at some stage (unless Chicony changed vendor at some stage and forgot about it when I asked them).

There are a load more clone types beside these, including the chubby yellow ones, the ProWorld clone etc. yab from China has a load of them.

That's why I'm so keen to see detailed photos of the switch that nubbinator has.

The confusion over MX clones is that, in the West, they're very rarely seen, and typically only the Aristotle. There are also pre-MX clones. Plus, as laffindude mentioned, Hirose in Japan made modified Cherry switches. However, theirs do say "CHERRY" on them (the Hirose M8 says "HIROSE CHERRY", while the Cherry MX Orange says only "CHERRY" with no mention of Hirose, probably due to using mostly stock parts from Germany — the Hirose M8 was a significant redesign requiring all new tooling, while the MX Orange differs only by the keycap mount on the stem.)

Alps clone switches on the other hand are seen far more often in the west, so people are far more aware of them than MX clones.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 October 2013, 08:34:00: Ahhh, sorry, I didn't realise that the first image wasn't loading! I spotted three "SHOW IMAGE" buttons in siawase's self-reply and realised that I was missing of them.

I was missing the photo of the whole switch with "CHERRY" written on it! :P

(I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he wouldn't describe something with "CHERRY" written on it, as a fake.)

Quote from: laffindude on Wed, 30 October 2013, 07:24:00
I think the switch is this: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear_(Hirose) (http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_MX_Clear_(Hirose))

Quite possibly — very hard to tell from the light and shade whether that's Hirose's custom mount (they're not MX mount). The internals do appear to be a good match, but nubbinator may be correct in that they changed the internals of regular MX switches at some point in the past:

http://kbd.rzw.jp/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/YAMAHA_QX3_Cherry_Orange_11.jpg

I'd still like to see photos of nubbinator's switch to see whether vintage MX switches really do have such significantly different internals.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: esoomenona on Wed, 30 October 2013, 08:41:21: That picture wasn't there...
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: MKULTRA on Wed, 30 October 2013, 08:57:38: Hahahah what the **** I'm so confused now
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Wed, 30 October 2013, 09:39:56: Yep the new pictures confirm, it's legit Cherry linear clear, even the PCB is a Cherry from some early G80-03** model.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: nubbinator on Wed, 30 October 2013, 11:20:24: Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 October 2013, 04:35:42
Interesting — got any photos of it? It's not just the leaf shape, but the whole design of the crosspoint mechanism on both contacts, which is nothing like anything I've seen from Cherry.

The question for siawase is: Does it say "Cherry" on it? I've yet to see evidence of clones with Cherry's name on them.

I'll try and get some photos later, but I don't have a legit macro lens, just close up filters...and I'll have to open a bunch of switches to try and find the three or four I remember seeing. From what I remember, they look identical internally to the switch in OP and I know they have Cherry written on the housing.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Wed, 30 October 2013, 13:27:04: @siawase: Is this switch linear? Could we have some more pictures of the stem (slider/axis)? Thank you.

Quote from: esoomenona on Wed, 30 October 2013, 08:41:21
That picture wasn't there...

The first one didn't appear until I hit shift+refresh — the problem is that the forum software assigns a blank alt property to the image, so nothing appears until the images load!

Interestingly, notice that one of the four arms on the cross is shorter than the other three?

On reinspection, I am now pretty confident that it's a Hirose switch. The internals match, the keycap mount matches. Different Cherry logo compared to rzwv's, which strengthens my feeling that they were using parts shipped in from Germany.

Quote from: nubbinator on Wed, 30 October 2013, 11:20:24
I'll try and get some photos later, but I don't have a legit macro lens, just close up filters...and I'll have to open a bunch of switches to try and find the three or four I remember seeing. From what I remember, they look identical internally to the switch in OP and I know they have Cherry written on the housing.

I may be able to find some photos from someone like MouseFan or Sandy showing the internals of vintage MX switches, for a comparison. (The patent drawing shows a different design again.)

It's just nice to be sure — little details do matter.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 09 December 2013, 18:25:01: Sorry it took me so long to reply and sorry I couldn't get a better picture. I lost this thread and just found it again.

(http://i.imm.io/1lVHy.png)

(http://i.imm.io/1lVIo.png)

Unfortunately I can't really get closer with my close up filter and jerry rigged light box.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Mon, 09 December 2013, 18:37:01: Interesting — I wonder when the switch occurred (pun not intended). It's now apparent that the clones copied this old design.

The patent shows a completely different design of leaf:

http://www.google.com/patents/US4467160

What's more interesting is that the patent is clearly for MX white/blue. There is no mention anywhere of sound at all — the click collar is there to provide hysteresis, which is something that the Cherry catalogues indicate is an important goal. The patent was filed in 1983, indicating that the clicky design was there from the outset. The fact that it emits noise seems to be completely irrelevant as far as Cherry were concerned.
Title: Re: This cherry switch
Post by: nubbinator on Mon, 09 December 2013, 18:47:28: Yeah, it definitely is interesting. And they were being made concurrently as the new design or were mixing old stock with the new design. I had a small handful (~4-5) on a keyboard full of the newer updated design. The tops and everything else were identical, they just had a different leaf.