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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: foxyrick on Tue, 05 November 2013, 07:48:12

Title: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Tue, 05 November 2013, 07:48:12
Not a good start for a first post I know, but I've lurked here for ages.

I finally bought myself a Ducky Shine 3, it arrived this morning.

Now four hours later, I am about to start reinstalling my system to recover it.

First issue: it seems the Ducky Shine 3 won't work though my KVM. I've updated the firmware on KVM and Ducky, but no go after an hour of trying. The keyboard gets power, but neither PC sees it and the shortcut keys to change the KVM don't do anything either.

If I plug the Ducky straight into my second PC, it works. What a wonderful typing experience (I'm used to an old Cherry keyboard with blues, but it bends like a credit card if I lean on it and my wife complains about the noise).

However, when I plugged it into my main PC, the fun really began. Windows said it failed to install the driver. Hmm... it's an HID... what driver?

I tried different ports, USB2, USB3, same result. Eventually, on the advice on another forum, I went into hardware management and removed my USB drivers. I have not had to do something like that since Windows XP days (I'm on Windows 7 x64). I then rebooted to allow the drivers to be reinstated, thinking it would work now.

All hell broke loose next!

Now, three hours later, I still have absolutely no USB on the computer, nothing! No keyboard or mouse is seen no matter what I try.

I managed to get in by remote (RDP) and tried deleting, reinstalling and updating the USB drivers again, nothing doing. Now, every time the PC starts to shut down for a restart, it blue screens. I tried a system restore, which blue screened again at restart and so failed. When it reloads, still no USB whatsoever.

I can't do safe mode because I still have no USB there either.

I'm flumoxed! I have not had this much trouble with my PC in many years. (I'm not exactly inexperienced!) The PC was working perfectly before plugging in that keyboard.

So, now I'm faced with returning a keyboard that I so much wanted to love, and spending several days bringing my main PC back to usability. It's my design system, with some serious electronics development software on it, so this is not trivial!

Arghh!!!

/vent.

Rick.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: uberknarf on Tue, 05 November 2013, 09:21:23
Just got a new Shine 3 yesterday as well - I'm with you, this board is beautiful. Picked it up for gaming-in-dark, and the black switches are a dream.

I'd urge you to try all options before sending back. I've had issues like this on a new build, and it generally comes down to taking things step by step. I'm not sure that I have any immediate insights, but I'm hopeful that someone on GH (or with the vendor) can walk you through the troubleshooting process.

Just as a starting point, what motherboard are you using? And do you currently have any peripherals (alternate keyboard or mouse) working? My first shot would be reinstalling the MB drivers from start to finish, with particular attention to the various bus drivers.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: foxyrick on Tue, 05 November 2013, 09:59:36
Yeah, the keyboard is gorgeous, and feels great to type on. It has to go back though. I absolutely need to run through a KVM switch and I still can't get that to work. I've been trying again since my first post but still the same: it powers up, but nothing can see it through the KVM. I don't know if it's the keyboard's fault or the KVM's. I would even consider buying another KVM (costs more than the keyboard!) if I could be sure it would work.

I'm hoping Ducky can shed some light on it.

The MB in the 'problem' PC is a Gigabyte ga-z68x-ud5-b3. I unplugged everything I could from it while trying to recover it, to no avail. Nothing seemed to resurrect the USB drivers, even reinstalling (by remote) all the chipset drivers etc. They were listed in the hardware, but nothing worked and anything I plugged in was ignored.

Anyway, I wiped the partition and have just finished reinstalling Windows. The Ducky works on it now, plugged directly in, not that it makes any difference. Now to reinstall my programs and check my data... probably for the next three days!

Ever wish you hadn't bothered with something???
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: uberknarf on Tue, 05 November 2013, 10:21:22
Man, I know this feeling. Countless reinstalls that have gone wonky in some random step that's worked hundreds of times before... So many days of my life lost to this stuff!

I'm glad to hear that you've got the board working with the main computer, though it's really unfortunate that it took a full wipe to get it working. And chipset drivers can be the absolute worst. I will say this: Since switching exclusively to ASUS MBs, I've never had the same trouble with drivers that I had with other brands.

Just a shot in the dark here: does the KVM accept a powered USB hub? If so, maybe the bus chip there could insulate the KVM from the incompatibility with the Ducky board. Might be a cheaper alternative, at least to buy one and try it, before buying a new KVM or exercising the return option.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: badboybry9000 on Tue, 05 November 2013, 10:31:17
You may have a couple problems.

The KVM switch may not be providing enough power to the Ducky Shine 3. It might look like the keyboard is powered but strange things can happen if devices are supplied with almost enough power but not quite as much power as they really need.

Also, if you are saying you just reinstalled Windows on your main PC and now the Ducky Shine 3 works on it, that PC may have already had hidden problems before you bought the Ducky. Perhaps attempting to use a new device on it exposed the problem.

I'm just throwing those ideas out there. I have no idea if that's really what's happening.

EDIT: uberknarfs idea sounds like it's potentially a good option.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 05 November 2013, 10:36:33
Have you reinstalled USB drivers for your motherboard?  You said you only uninstalled them.  Download the latest motherboard drivers and update everything, if you haven't already.
Not sure about the KVM part.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: foxyrick on Tue, 05 November 2013, 11:44:41
I don't blame the ducky for the PC blowing up, although it might sound a little that way in my OP. I guess there was something underlying that it exposed. Possibly caused by the rotten Cisco software I installed a few days ago that caused so many headaches, including trying to get off again, that I don't know how I forgot about it.

Once I get my system fully up again I'll give the powered hub a try on the KVM.

I did try reinstalling the USB drivers along with everything else. I spent many years as a tech, doing everything from installing windows to designing VMware server farms, and I've never seen a PC get so badly messed up!

The worse thing now is that at one point in the process, windows in its infinite wisdom decided that my data disk (4TB of important stuff) was corrupt and needed repairing. It wasn't, and it didn't, but windows did it anyway and trashed half of it before I could pull the plug (literally).

So, next job, restore last week's backup...
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: rowdy on Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:09:43
Quote from: Photoelectric on Tue, 05 November 2013, 10:36:33
Have you reinstalled USB drivers for your motherboard?  You said you only uninstalled them.  Download the latest motherboard drivers and update everything, if you haven't already.
Not sure about the KVM part.

Downloading and/or installing things might be difficult if the mouse and keyboard did not work.  Especially as most modern computers omit the PS/2 port.

Been through that myself recently, when Kaspersky borked the mouse and keyboard - I ended up reinstalling too.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: foxyrick on Tue, 05 November 2013, 18:00:51
Quote from: rowdy on Tue, 05 November 2013, 17:09:43
Downloading and/or installing things might be difficult if the mouse and keyboard did not work.  Especially as most modern computers omit the PS/2 port.

It certainly didn't make it easy!

It goes from bad to worse... I have two 4TB data drives (plus the OS drive) in the PC. One of them is just to back up the other, on a weekly schedule. Windows has somehow managed to trash the file systems on both of them, even though it had no reason to write anything to either of them. Only the OS disk should have been in use.

I can only think that at some point in the mess Windows lost the ability to deal with the large (>2.2TB) disks.

So my restore isn't going to be so easy. I know that I have lost several large folder trees on both drives that had well over 500,000 files in them; mostly archives of electronic datasheets, manuals, etc. Even worse, there is seemingly random file loss and corruption all over the two disks.

Fortunately I do have an offsite backup on a USB disk, but the last time I did that backup was in August (lazy idiot!). Not the end of the world though.

Anyway, back on topic... keyboards...

When I find my USB hub tomorrow I'll have a go connecting it in series with the KVM switch, but I'll be surprised if it works to be honest. Worth a shot though.

At the moment I'm typing on an awful Lenovo keyboard and I really want to be able to use the Ducky.

I really wish I could find more information on using a decent keyboard through a KVM. It never occurred to me that it might be an issue because I've used KVMs on my setups for years and never had a problem. Mice, yes, but not keyboards.
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: mapple on Wed, 06 November 2013, 04:43:10
1. loose your wife if she's complaining
2. go with rdp go to hardware manager and scan for new devices->if not add manually and same way add correct drivers from your vendor of motherboard. If that doesn't work install ****ty windows again -> seriously it's only windows (i'm admin with several years of experience). also before placing new installation i would apply all windows updates..... it's few gb right now (some dll depends on updates which can be differently applied for system settings - might be an issue?).
Title: Re: Major problem with a Ducky Shine 3
Post by: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 05:34:15
My wife's a keeper, really! Even if it means I can't use my MX Blues at night.

Aye, I tried all that you said and more. Windows is back on now and I'm working on trying to patch together 4TB of data. I hate Bill Gates so much right now!

I've just written a load of stuff, then got a response from Ducky support which made it irrelevent.

It seems that the Ducky presents as more than one keyboard to the PC, to enable the n-key rollover through USB. Clever, and something I had done myself with a Microchip PIC when playing about with keyboard interfaces and trying to get around the 6 key limit. I guess that is interfereing with the KVM.

The KVM is not just a USB switch. It actually acts as the keyboard to the PCs, and acts as the host to the real keyboard, receiving the data itself. Then it retransmits the data, after any modifications it makes (like Sun or Mac emulation that mine does). It seems the KVM isn't clever enough to deal with a perfectly legal USB implementation, but one that is very unusual: Multiple keyboards on one interfce.

There's no fix for that, apart from developing my own KVM switch with a bit more smartness on the host side of things. Possible, but I don't have time right now. I just want a better keyboard ASAP.

So, very sorry Ducky, your keyboard is absolutely gorgeous, but it's going back tomorrow. I would highly recommend it to anyone that does not need to use a KVM switch.

I've just ordered a Filco Majestouch-2, having spoken with Andy at The Keyboard Company. The Filco works as a standard, single USB keyboard so we hope it should not have an issue with the KVM switch.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: uberknarf on Wed, 06 November 2013, 08:49:30
Glad to hear that you got a response, though it's disappointing.

I thought that you could disable NKRO using a dipswitch - have you tried switching over to 6KRO to see if that would work? Might be recognized as a single board instead of two. I'd imagine it wouldn't work, given that Ducky indicated there's no fix, but that was my understanding of how the NKRO/6KRO was supposed to work on these boards.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: tp4tissue on Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:03:35
Quote from: mapple on Wed, 06 November 2013, 04:43:10
1. loose your wife if she's complaining
2. go with rdp go to hardware manager and scan for new devices->if not add manually and same way add correct drivers from your vendor of motherboard. If that doesn't work install ****ty windows again -> seriously it's only windows (i'm admin with several years of experience). also before placing new installation i would apply all windows updates..... it's few gb right now (some dll depends on updates which can be differently applied for system settings - might be an issue?).

Haaa... and I was accused of being a misogynist... or maybe mapple is only a misogamist..(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/70bff581.gif)
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 10:03:31
Quote from: uberknarf on Wed, 06 November 2013, 08:49:30
I thought that you could disable NKRO using a dipswitch - have you tried switching over to 6KRO to see if that would work?

Unfortunately the DIP switches only do the following:

Windows Key lockout
Ctrl and Capslock swap
Windows key and Alt swap
DEMO Mode

Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: Matias on Wed, 06 November 2013, 10:15:28
Quote from: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 05:34:15
The KVM is not just a USB switch. It actually acts as the keyboard to the PCs, and acts as the host to the real keyboard, receiving the data itself. Then it retransmits the data, after any modifications it makes (like Sun or Mac emulation that mine does). It seems the KVM isn't clever enough to deal with a perfectly legal USB implementation, but one that is very unusual: Multiple keyboards on one interfce.

There's no fix for that, apart from developing my own KVM switch with a bit more smartness on the host side of things. Possible, but I don't have time right now. I just want a better keyboard ASAP.

You could also try a different KVM switch.  Like snowflakes, they are not all the same. :)

Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: uberknarf on Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:07:07
Quote from: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 10:03:31
Quote from: uberknarf on Wed, 06 November 2013, 08:49:30
I thought that you could disable NKRO using a dipswitch - have you tried switching over to 6KRO to see if that would work?

Unfortunately the DIP switches only do the following:

Windows Key lockout
Ctrl and Capslock swap
Windows key and Alt swap
DEMO Mode

Ah, ok. My mistaken info came from this thread:

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45051.msg938650#msg938650

Also, here (Post #5): http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1725513

It's unfortunate that they've chosen to exclude this feature from the Shine. Seems like a great way to improve cross-platform compatibility. Makes me sad that you'll miss out on the LED glory.

FWIW, I'll be happy to make you godfather of the Shine 3 and TKL I've got kicking around here. Will keep you posted as they grow up.

Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:12:49
I would be very surprised if any KVM switch worked, because it would have to be programmed deliberately to accept multiple 'virtual' keyboards at once, which until now has not been necessary.

Apart, that is, from very simple USB switches. I don't think anyone still makes KVM switches like that, although I recall when USB keyboards first started appearing that some worked that way.

I did think about doing this myself, before I even knew what the issue was. I caould make one in half an hour an interface it to the KVM but there is a probalem with the simple switch method:

Every time you switch, the PC has to enumerate the keyboard anew. That causes a delay which I do not like.

That's why a USB KVM switches acts as a host to the keyboard and emulates keyboards to the PCs; it can pretend that the keyboards on the PCs are never disconnected by just directing data at the appropriate output.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:18:30
Quote from: uberknarf on Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:07:07
It's unfortunate that they've chosen to exclude this feature from the Shine. Seems like a great way to improve cross-platform compatibility. Makes me sad that you'll miss out on the LED glory.

FWIW, I'll be happy to make you godfather of the Shine 3 and TKL I've got kicking around here. Will keep you posted as they grow up.

It is a shame - I wasn't aware that it was an option on others. Perhaps they will rethink it now they know it is a problem.

I would be honoured to be godfather to your Shine 3 and TKL. I've never been a godfather beffore... do I have to do anything, you know, godfatherly? Like babysit when you aren't using them?

They could be key-pals with my Majestouch, when it arrives!
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: mapple on Thu, 07 November 2013, 05:37:43
Quote from: tp4tissue on Wed, 06 November 2013, 09:03:35
Quote from: mapple on Wed, 06 November 2013, 04:43:10
1. loose your wife if she's complaining
2. go with rdp go to hardware manager and scan for new devices->if not add manually and same way add correct drivers from your vendor of motherboard. If that doesn't work install ****ty windows again -> seriously it's only windows (i'm admin with several years of experience). also before placing new installation i would apply all windows updates..... it's few gb right now (some dll depends on updates which can be differently applied for system settings - might be an issue?).

Haaa... and I was accused of being a misogynist... or maybe mapple is only a misogamist..
Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/70bff581.gif)


i do love womenz:) just can't understand and would not accept fact that she's blocking me and my hobby/passion or do same thing to her, like throw away all cosmetics of her
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 07 November 2013, 06:13:13
Quote from: foxyrick on Wed, 06 November 2013, 11:12:49
I would be very surprised if any KVM switch worked, because it would have to be programmed deliberately to accept multiple 'virtual' keyboards at once, which until now has not been necessary.
KVM with.DMM should work since they do fully pass the USB enumeration to the computers. But they do cost more.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Thu, 07 November 2013, 07:12:02
Quote from: laffindude on Thu, 07 November 2013, 06:13:13
KVM with.DMM should work since they do fully pass the USB enumeration to the computers. But they do cost more.

Could you point me to an example? Google isn't my friend today.

If it passes enumeration through, I would guess that it would suffer from a delay when switched while the PC established connection with it though. Like the simple switches. I would like to be wrong...

Things were much simpler when we just had P/S2 keyboards. I have several PS/2 KVM switches in the attic.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: laffindude on Thu, 07 November 2013, 19:59:15
Ha, I was on the phone. Awesome autocorrect... DDM I meant to type
Here is one: http://www.amazon.com/ConnectPRO-2-port-Switch-UD-12-KIT1F/dp/B003X5FM6Q
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: kolonelkadat on Thu, 07 November 2013, 23:23:22
why not just use a software kvm like synergy?
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: foxyrick on Fri, 08 November 2013, 06:18:36
Thanks laffindude, I'll take a look. That particular one won't support my monitor, but I'll look for similar ones next time I'm in the market for a KVM. I'll probably be happy with my Filco and not need another KVM, but we'll see.

kolonelkadat, I use Synergy on some other PCs but it isn't a KVM solution. It's really just a way to share one keyboard/mouse with multiple PCs when each one has its own monitor. While I could use it together with a KVM, it would not be a good solution. Also, I find Synergy quite buggy and it often loses the ability to connect and refuses to close the program properly.

Microsoft Garage has a similar thing called Mouse without Borders. I have been told that works better than Synergy but I haven't got around to trying it yet.
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: gunnbr on Wed, 06 August 2014, 23:52:44
Quote from: foxyrick on Fri, 08 November 2013, 06:18:36
Thanks laffindude, I'll take a look. That particular one won't support my monitor, but I'll look for similar ones next time I'm in the market for a KVM. I'll probably be happy with my Filco and not need another KVM, but we'll see.

I found this thread when I ran into the exact same problem with my new Ducky Shine 3. I was also crushed when I found out it wouldn't work, but Ducky technical support did provide me with answers very quickly.

1. They confirmed that KVM switches with DDM work with the Shine 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_device_mapping (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_device_mapping) explains that DDM was created for exactly this use case of sharing devices other than a plain keyboard and mouse.

2. They are releasing new firmware that has 6KRO support so the cheaper KVM switches work! Hopefully it comes out soon!
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: corky on Wed, 24 December 2014, 23:01:09
Hey guys, I'm necro'ing this thread to let you know that the firmware for 6KRO has been released and the Ducky Shine 3 now works with my KVM!

Firmware here:  http://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/firmware_updater.html

Enable 6KRO: Fn + S (hold for 3 seconds)
Disable 6KRO: Fn + N (hold for 3 seconds)

Thanks for all your help guys!
Title: Re: Problem with a Ducky Shine 3 through a KVM switch
Post by: rowdy on Sat, 27 December 2014, 01:06:40
Quote from: corky on Wed, 24 December 2014, 23:01:09
Hey guys, I'm necro'ing this thread to let you know that the firmware for 6KRO has been released and the Ducky Shine 3 now works with my KVM!

Firmware here:  http://www.duckychannel.com.tw/en/firmware_updater.html

Enable 6KRO: Fn + S (hold for 3 seconds)
Disable 6KRO: Fn + N (hold for 3 seconds)

Thanks for all your help guys!

That's good to know!

Thanks for the update :)