geekhack
geekhack Projects => Making Stuff Together! => Topic started by: Geke_Hackman on Sat, 09 November 2013, 18:58:35
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New to mechanical keyboards - have been really inspired by some of the projects on the forums. I currently have the resources to cast some keycaps (perhaps a case as well) in glass. Can experiment with various colors, textures, forms and etching if all goes well, but will likely start out with a basic prototype using clear soda lime.
Thinking about making a mold from our shop lizard's leg to use as texture for a key.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3747/10767953166_92353d1e79.jpg)
Not sure if this has already been done, but haven't found anything so far. Let me know if you see any keycaps in glass or bronze. Will update as progress is made.
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An earlier discussion about glass keycaps can be found here (http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=48425.0).
I think the biggest concern was that they would shatter.
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Thanks for the link. Would have to do some stress testing, but I think soda-lime may be fine for this. Just looking at some facts: The highest peak force for mechanical switches (going off an MX cherry black) is 80cn or approx. 80 grams. Soda-lime can withstand pressures of roughly 6,500 lbs per square inch. Even if the glass is only 1/16 of an inch thick, that's over 400lbs.
The only ways I can imagine the glass shattering is if someone were to expose the piece to extreme temperatures (oven to very cold water) or they were actively trying to break it with something like a hammer.
That said, I'm just going off of our track record. We've made door handles, guitar bridges, etc (e.g. things that will see continuous use or pressure) out of soda lime without any cracking or shattering. Would have to do some real world testing with a key, though.
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:eek:
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Thanks for the link. Would have to do some stress testing, but I think soda-lime may be fine for this. Just looking at some facts: The highest peak force for mechanical switches (going off an MX cherry black) is 80cn or approx. 80 grams. Soda-lime can withstand pressures of roughly 6,500 lbs per square inch. Even if the glass is only 1/16 of an inch thick, that's over 400lbs.
The only ways I can imagine the glass shattering is if someone were to expose the piece to extreme temperatures (oven to very cold water) or they were actively trying to break it with something like a hammer.
That said, I'm just going off of our track record. We've made door handles, guitar bridges, etc (e.g. things that will see continuous use or pressure) out of soda lime without any cracking or shattering. Would have to do some real world testing with a key, though.
OMG please do this and keep us in touch with the results!
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Sounds like you could really produce some great keys. It will be interesting how they sound, too, as well as how transparent they get, how much stems and edges block the clarity. Good luck :)
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I really look forward to what comes of this. Most glasses have a very low thermal expansion coefficient and mold well. I am interested in trying some glass molding in future, so will follow this with great interest.
Even "weaker" glasses are more than tough enough for keycaps as long as they are at least as thick as standard "thin" ABS caps. The shock of bottoming out a key is a lot more than the spring force involved in just pressing it, but it's still well within what most glasses can handle.
What particular glass and mold materials will you be using?
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Agree that the shock of bottoming out would be a lot more than the spring force, but that's something that will require real world testing. But who knows, there's probably some academic journal written about the link between office related stress and bottoming out the switch.
Regarding the glass, I'm going to browse some of our sample books on monday and see what my options are.
For the mold, I'm thinking about trying out a couple different types: a sturdy urethane based rubber for a smooth blank and, when the time comes, some silicone for a textured key. From there I'll go about it like a jewelry or bronze casting: encase the wax in investment and steam it out. Not sure about the firing schedule yet, but will let you know once I do some trial and error.
If things turn out well, I will likely make a full scale no-wax plastic mold so I can reproduce an entire set rather than just one at a time. Have this image in my mind of a crystal keyboard, so that's what the goal is ultimately.
Do have a few questions: From what I've seen there are 2 types of plastic, the thinner ABS cap like you mentioned, but what is the thicker plastic called? Also, are there any places that sell just one or two individual keys so I can contrast/compare? Finally, I would like to find a single key switch, like in RabRhee's avatar pic. Any info on how to find individual switches to use for testing (ideally would like to pick up a black, blue and red) would be appreciated.
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Do have a few questions: From what I've seen there are 2 types of plastic, the thinner ABS cap like you mentioned, but what is the thicker plastic called? Also, are there any places that sell just one or two individual keys so I can contrast/compare? Finally, I would like to find a single key switch, like in RabRhee's avatar pic. Any info on how to find individual switches to use for testing (ideally would like to pick up a black, blue and red) would be appreciated.
The other plastic is usually PBT. You can pick up individual caps from Signature Plastics (http://www.keycapsdirect.com/key-capsinventory.php) from whatever they have inventory at the moment.
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... Finally, I would like to find a single key switch, like in RabRhee's avatar pic. Any info on how to find individual switches to use for testing (ideally would like to pick up a black, blue and red) would be appreciated.
There are various keychains with a single switch on, Feng stocks the cherry keychains with a keypuller, also other types of keychain, so do many other places. Heres the link to fengs keychain stock, he also sells individual keys, mostly novelty ones.
http://stores.ebay.com/GeekKeys/Other-/_i.html?_fsub=1&_sid=987669357&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322
If you just want the switches without the keychain there are numerous places, wasd do a switch and cap sample pack here, they also sell individual switches.
http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/sampler-kit-1.html
What may work too is a switch tester, a few places do those, although they tend to go out of stock fast. QWERkeys do one, and CM just listed a new one too.
http://www.qwerkeys.co.uk/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=75&product_id=180
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=50594.msg1106646#msg1106646
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I'm sure if you just asked the community someone would be more than happy to send you various individual switches for just the cost of shipping if that.
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I would love to visit your shop sometime
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Sure, the bottoming out forces will be far greater than the 80cN of the switch. That said, I think glass will be strong enough for use. I would bet that the area where the greatest chance of fracture happens to be when you mount them as a lot of stress is put on the stem mount. The stem mount itself will be under tensile stress when the stem pushes the stem mount apart. There will also be stress on the join between the stem mount and cap when you exert quite a bit of force to put them on and you are unlikely to press them dead center. I have no doubt that they can stand the compressive force of a keystroke though, I am more worried about putting them on a switch.
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This is long dead, but thought I would update anyways since I have some time to work on these.
Thickened the keys up with some silicon putty. Felt somewhat dumb after seeing others just pour some self leveling resin for a nice smooth fill.
After some unsuccessful attempts at using wax sprues, I took some time today and made something a bit more permanent - wooden dowel and auto body compound.
(http://i.imgur.com/XtnlLsl.jpg)
A few coats of release and ready for silicone.
(http://i.imgur.com/wev3kwD.jpg)
There it sits, quietly bubbling.
(http://i.imgur.com/VSv4nIA.jpg?1)
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Wow! Keep it up!
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Agree that the shock of bottoming out would be a lot more than the spring force, but that's something that will require real world testing. But who knows, there's probably some academic journal written about the link between office related stress and bottoming out the switch.
This may be an extreme use case of key cap abuse :
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Mold is finished. Seemed to come out alright.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3884/14416629296_9de8cfbfea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nXWZC5)
Poured the wax, waiting for it to cool.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5472/14416626566_88696ce093_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nXWYP1)
It's going to take a few more pours to work out all the kinks (aka air bubbles).
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3866/14459932373_a031cb0d82_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o2LW7R)
One obvious thin spot. Luckily this isn't in the mold. Poured a couple more after this and the upper wall was much thicker.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3890/14459932133_35c3ea41b8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o2LW3H)
Pulled these out of the kiln today. Life size steer skulls. Surprisingly much easier to make than the keys so far :p
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2908/14253323677_f1a80f697b_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/nHw1xX)
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I am so interested in this
I was thinking of doing an "Apple inspired" keyboard with the GON Skinny and glass keycaps would be perfect for that!
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Good suggestion on the GON skinny. Actually in the process of gathering parts for a hackintosh (inside an aluminum G5 tower), that might go pretty well together with a silver case and some clear keys.
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Please continue with this! If you could get this down to a repeatable process, I would love an entire board of etched glass caps!
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Is this the "lost wax process"? My brother is a glassblower and was going to do some experimenting.
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This is really interesting, I'm excited to see how it turns out.
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The only problem I have with translucent keycaps is that you can see the stems through them. I would love if a part of the keycap could be made opaque so that the stem isn't shown.
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Oh gawd.. That icy finish on those skulls.
Make keys with that finish, with moulds made from GMK keycaps and I'll love you forever.
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Is this the "lost wax process"? My brother is a glassblower and was going to do some experimenting.
This would most certainly be lost wax casting. Next step, not pictured, would be to use investment set around those wax mold/sprue combo. Then the wax is melted out of the investment, and the final material cast into the investment. In this case, glass. Or at least that's how lost wax casting goes for metal. I'm assuming it's the same for glass.
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Yes, it's lost wax process. Similar to bronze casting.
As far as finish goes in relation to showing the stem: it's possible with the right finish on the outside. But unless the cap and stem are cast separately it would be very difficult to control the flow of glass, especially on something so small. Will post some pics when I get home as an example.
Looking to make this process a bit more precise. If anyone knows where I can find a few very thick blank caps (for cherry mx switches), please let me know. Currently using ABS but after looking around, I think something like a pbt cap would be better for this due to the already perfect uniform thickness. Any brand or links to find a few would be great.
Went on specialty keys, but not sure of what "family" of key to order. Looking for a shape/profile that you would commonly find on a modern keyboard (vortex poker, hhkb, ducky, etc).
After I get a few good standard caps, can start experimenting with color, texture and sculpture. Glad to see there an interest in this, as long as there is I'll keep posting. Thanks guys.
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Since we know that you're quite good with glass...
could we perhaps see some artisan glass keycaps? :eek:
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I recommend that you go for GMK caps. They're nice and thick, and easily available from here : http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,cherrymxkeys
Look for the ones that say 'Authentic Cherry'. Those are the GMK ones :thumb:
They're doubleshot, so the top surface doesn't have any kind of difference in height where the text is, so they're just as good as blanks.
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I recommend that you go for GMK caps. They're nice and thick, and easily available from here : http://elitekeyboards.com/products.php?sub=access,cherrymxkeys
Look for the ones that say 'Authentic Cherry'. Those are the GMK ones :thumb:
They're doubleshot, so the top surface doesn't have any kind of difference in height where the text is, so they're just as good as blanks.
There is a slight difference, and while not very visible, if you squint a lot, you can see the original legend outline
If that bothers you, just get some imsto dyesubs, those are pretty thick and do the job
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Thanks for the suggestions Photek and Pacifist. Ordered some GMK caps. Looking forward to making some modifications and getting a thicker positive. I plan on using a primer this time, so the legend shouldn't be an issue as the primer can easily be sanded flat.
After I can guarantee that the stems will come out well, I can start on some limited edition runs of colors, mini sculptures, and textures. Would eventually like to do a full set, but it's going to take a fair amount of time + trial and error to etch each key individually.
Going to start off with clear glass. Here is how glass looks after being sandblasted - very soft, almost white. You probably won't notice the stems much:
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2900/14475098473_0062a0f8cd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o47Etk)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/o47Etk)
Here it is after being sprayed with varnish. Almost like an ice sculpture:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/14475101383_b8fc063d65_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/o47Fkv)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/o47Fkv)
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Those finishes both look absolutely amazing. I really can't wait to see these keycaps! :thumb:
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I just want to know how affordable (or unaffordable) a whole set would be.
I would also be perfectly fine with non-sculptured sets if that would reduce the cost.
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Not sure on a price yet. Blank sets would be the most cost efficient. Having to take the time to clean up little sculptures and/or etch a letter on each key will take a significant amount of time. Painting the keys is also possible. I don't think most here would have an issue with a blank set, though.
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Would love to get some blank bead blasted keys. Probably WASD, enter, backspace.
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Depending on how clean these look I would either put them on my sprit or a GON Skinny for an "apple" keyboard.
If the caps are more "frosty" looking then my white pcb sprit with sky blue backplate would be great
If the caps are clean and clear then I might put them on a GON.
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Did a fair amount of glass casting (furnace and kiln) in college, and thought I'd throw in my two cents: I would be really surprised if you end up getting a good form on the final piece with a lost wax cast using the methods I assume you used on those skulls (which look great, by the way).
I would think you'd need to do something almost like pate de verre to get those thin details. Perhaps filling the mold you made with really fine frit and shaking it a bit first? Or perhaps changing the direction so that you fill from the top surface of the cap, then simply grind/polish the excess away (which should work pretty well for making cylindrical profile keycaps assuming you have lathes).
Thoughts? Curious what you have in mind because the way it looks like you were planning to cast it, I just don't see the glass moving into the stem and far side of the cap. (I've been wrong before, though)
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Oh, man, this project looks amazing. I'm surprised no one has said this, but glass keycaps with LEDs. Just role that around for a bit. It would be so beautiful.
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Think you have some good ideas, MuadDirac. Talked to another person about that and he recommended I go from the top as well. On the next mold I'm going to thicken and reposition the sprue. The waxes with the current feed position are proof of your theory - at least one little bubble forms in the wax stem with every pull. Would rather not waste time and material making similar mistakes in glass. We don't have lathes, but should have the tools to shape it regardless. Will also go with frit on something small like this. If all goes well and enough people show interest, may go with a wax-less method to skip this step in the future. Learning this as I go, so your (educated) opinion is much appreciated.
Have definitely thought about how LEDs would look beneath these, EvillePanda. Hopefully we can see soon.
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New Model
(http://i60.tinypic.com/eg70ux.jpg) (http://i59.tinypic.com/vyw30k.jpg)
wax
(http://i58.tinypic.com/2v0xunn.jpg)
steamed out
(http://i59.tinypic.com/2u598ig.jpg)
glass, ready for kiln
(http://i59.tinypic.com/20z8p4z.jpg)
Will update after it comes out of the kiln.
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I was wondering what was going on with these. Glad you are still pursuing this project! :thumb:
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Good luck!
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Glass keys, fiberglass case... what's next, depleted uranium plate?
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I'm looking forward to see the result!
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It takes the glass out of the kiln, else it gets the hose agin.
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I wanna see what happens after our intrepid hero takes the glass out of the molds! Hurry up and post pictures already :D
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Glass keys, fiberglass case... what's next, depleted uranium plate?
That sounds like it would be a hot topic!
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Glass keys, fiberglass case... what's next, depleted uranium plate?
Are uranium glass keys close enough?
(http://i.imgur.com/giloV8l.png)
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I looked into it once, DU is extremely hard to get in the size required for a plate. You usually have to have chemistry connections.
This does make me wonder: with the excellent finishes available, how easy would it be to do a case? I will do some thinking.
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This does make me wonder: with the excellent finishes available, how easy would it be to do a case? I will do some thinking.
If you're talking about a glass case, that would be dope! Although I'm worried that it would shatter after one small drop. Even then, small impacts will slowly crack the glass, whereas with something like aluminum, the metal bends and never reaches a breaking point.
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This does make me wonder: with the excellent finishes available, how easy would it be to do a case? I will do some thinking.
If you're talking about a glass case, that would be dope! Although I'm worried that it would shatter after one small drop. Even then, small impacts will slowly crack the glass, whereas with something like aluminum, the metal bends and never reaches a breaking point.
It would be nice for a keyboard that never left your desk though. I'm also looking at making a concrete case, possibly even a GB - easy to mold, cheap materials, but the shipping cost...
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If you want to have keyboards that never leave the desk, we need a table where you can lock in keyboards to a flippable surface so you can change between different switches on the fly! :p
That kind of setup would be pimpin'!
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I do like being able to move it on the desk though. I'm looking at making cases that slide really easily, basically embedding little glide pads.
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Awesome project! Cant wait to see the results when its out of the kiln!
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Just the thought of that glass liquifying is getting me all hot and bothered ;)
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Just the thought of that glass liquifying is getting me all hot and bothered ;)
I keep thinking about glass blowing :eek:
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This does make me wonder: with the excellent finishes available, how easy would it be to do a case? I will do some thinking.
If you're talking about a glass case, that would be dope! Although I'm worried that it would shatter after one small drop. Even then, small impacts will slowly crack the glass, whereas with something like aluminum, the metal bends and never reaches a breaking point.
I think a lot of people underestimate ceramics. A lot of them have a pretty high toughness (they can absorb a lot of energy before failure) In the case of glass-ceramic in particular, small impacts will not slowly crack the glass.
Additionally: metals, even aluminium, do have a breaking point.
I do like being able to move it on the desk though. I'm looking at making cases that slide really easily, basically embedding little glide pads.
I am not convinced that this is a good idea, but am interested in your results nonetheless.
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just want to voice my support for this project. it sounds very promising!
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Make them caps already! The suspense is real!
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I'm worried OP is dead or something. Come back to us :(
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Its only been 3 days! :O
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I'm worried OP is dead or something. Come back to us :(
(http://i60.tinypic.com/650209.jpg)
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RIP OP
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I guess they're still in the kiln since the OP hasn't updated us yet.... Maybe he's in there with them :eek:
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They are in the kiln with a couple of (much larger) other things. Will be a week or two before they come out.
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Cant wait to see the result? Might I ask what else is in the same kiln?
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Wow, I had no idea it could take that long. Can't wait to see the result!
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I'm getting tempted to try machining a glass keycap. I just haven't had the best of luck with glass, but it might be a fun challenge if I can find the time.
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Wow, I had no idea it could take that long. Can't wait to see the result!
Firing schedules can be very long and complicated for delicate objects to avoid thermal stress.
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They are in the kiln(s) with 15 other casts of Ben Hogan's (golfer) hands.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3859/14855287175_1ea5255678_z.jpg)
Hope this isn't too gratuitous, but here are some pics of projects we've recently worked on.
Binh Pho does great work. Heres one of his small sculptures ready to be shipped off for him to paint.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2812/13569837853_3ac3a50350_z.jpg)
And a completed one (this is about 16'' high). Glass vessel inside glass vessel. Yo dawg...
(http://www.habatatgalleries.com/images/Beneath%20the%20Heroic%20Sky.jpg)
Bowls for Autodesk
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3667/13569712065_7cb221cb0a_c.jpg)
NSFW, life size cast of a woman
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3699/9807654724_fe6b2c337e_c.jpg)
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Wow that's amazing!
I have always loved glasswork. My old hometown of Danville, KY is home to Centre college, who have a decent glassblowing program. I loved watching them work. Later, I got to know Stephen Powell (http://www.stephenrolfepowell.com/), a glass artist a little. It's great!
I know glassblowing is different, but I' just have more experience with it.