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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: elmwood on Thu, 08 January 2009, 21:23:33

Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: elmwood on Thu, 08 January 2009, 21:23:33: Yeah, you know what I'm talking about.

(http://i40.tinypic.com/2gyaqhk.jpg)

(http://i41.tinypic.com/2ezogzr.jpg)

What currently manufactured keyboards have the Control key placed to the left of the A key? I can only think of the following:

* Unicomp Linux boards
* Matias membrane USB keyboards; Mac (white) and PC/Mac (black) layout. These aren't that expensive; are they any good for a membrane?
* Happy Hacking boards
* Sun Type 7 USB keyboard, Unix layout. Again, membrane.
* Avant Prime keyboards; ship with extra replacement keys so users can swap Caps Lock and Control.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: wellington1869 on Thu, 08 January 2009, 21:27:37: Although with a little autohotkey exorcism, any keyboard can be returned to God's righteous path.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xsphat on Thu, 08 January 2009, 21:53:44: Quote from: wellington1869;17555
Although with a little autohotkey exorcism, any keyboard can be returned to God's righteous path.

It's a preference in Mac. That's where mine is.

Add Topre keyboards to your list. I can set it up that way with the DIP switches on my 86 and it even comes with the Capslock sized Ctrl key.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: djones on Fri, 09 January 2009, 00:54:20: I disagree. control key to the left of the 'a' key encourages one handed key combos, bad bad bad for RSI. modifiers belong on the space bar row and should be pressed with the forefinger (and the actual key with the other hand).
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 09 January 2009, 01:36:43: Except when doing a key combo that's all on the left, say, something like a Ctrl-C, I hit the Ctrl key with my left pinky anyway. Why move my right hand from the home row?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: iMav on Fri, 09 January 2009, 03:05:57: Quote from: djones;17564
I disagree. control key to the left of the 'a' key encourages one handed key combos, bad bad bad for RSI. modifiers belong on the space bar row and should be pressed with the forefinger (and the actual key with the other hand).

Millions of UNIX geeks NOT currently suffering from RSI might disagree. ;)
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: andb on Fri, 09 January 2009, 04:10:38: I think one of the best features of the Colemak keyboard layout is putting a backspace in that position. So I prefer (need?) the CTRL in the spacebar row.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: lam47 on Fri, 09 January 2009, 04:24:04: I tried mapping backspace to caps lock but my stupid hand would still jump up to the top right.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: Chloe on Fri, 09 January 2009, 05:10:42: Datalux keyboards have Control and Caps Lock swapped.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 09 January 2009, 06:52:48: Quote from: lam47;17573
I tried mapping backspace to caps lock but my stupid hand would still jump up to the top right.

This type of thing was always a struggle for me on my Evolution. Since the page navigation cluster and the arrows are in the middle of the 'board, I would always get thrown off by the positioning and press the "0" key on the numpad.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xsphat on Fri, 09 January 2009, 10:56:29: In Mac I never use Ctrl at home so it's out of the way (in Mac, Command is the Control in Windows and Linux). At work, in Indesign and NewsEditPro Ique, I use Ctrl all the time, but I still map it to the left of A. I like it that way. The most important thing for me, and this is going back a few years, is to get rid of the stupid CapsLock key. Who needs that aside from grandmothers?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 09 January 2009, 11:14:13: Some Of Still Like To Shout When We Type : )
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bhtooefr on Fri, 09 January 2009, 12:41:55: YOU NEED IT IF YOU WANT TO TURN ON CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL.

I mean, how can you be cool if you don't type in all caps? And cruise control just means you're badass. :p
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xsphat on Fri, 09 January 2009, 13:16:23: haha
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: secularzarathustra on Fri, 09 January 2009, 13:35:55: It's not a current board, but the Northgate OmniKey 101 has Caps Lock where whoever intended, with dip switches to hard remap the modifier combinations, and many many many other nifty tricks.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: Therac-25 on Fri, 09 January 2009, 14:40:34: My left pinky actually rests in a weird bent position (I can thank my brother for slamming it in a door when I was a kid), so I actually much prefer the bottom corner position.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 09 January 2009, 15:55:28: I remap all of my keyboards to have the cntrl key next to 'a'. In ubuntu, you even have a gui menu to do it which makes it even easier.
I am sure in the past there was a good reason to have caps lock where it is, but nowadays it just seems like a waste of prime real estate.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: itlnstln on Fri, 09 January 2009, 15:57:24: I wish there were no key in that space. I tend to press the Caps Lock key instead of the Shift key by accident. I would even like a Shift key in an "L" shape a la some Enter keys on the left side.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 09 January 2009, 16:40:27: I don't know about that. For me it is the perfect place for the cntrl key. The "normal" location for the cntrl key is down low on the left hand side. That location makes it more difficult for me to use. Not having a key in that space would be a waste of space, no?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 09 January 2009, 17:11:19: Quote from: bigpook;17657
I am sure in the past there was a good reason to have caps lock where it is
Typewriter mechanics.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 09 January 2009, 17:22:17: typewriter mechanics?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:04:19: Quote from: bigpook;17664
typewriter mechanics?
The caps lock lever is a small lever on top of the shift lever:

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/377196235_8059dafd55.jpg?v=0)

Shift is more south because it is used more often and gets better leverage there. Less strain on the pinky.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:20:03: Quote from: lowpoly;17670
The caps lock lever is a small lever on top of the shift lever:

Show Image
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/159/377196235_8059dafd55.jpg?v=0)

Shift is more south because it is used more often and gets better leverage there. Less strain on the pinky.

wow, no kidding. to think the old designs/implementations don't die out but just get reimplemented as time goes on.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: cmr on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:24:13: i use caps lock frequently. also i press ctrl with my pinky finger or my thumb. but do whatever you want with that, it's not important enough for a holy war.

but backspace/backslash/enter IS.

this is the ONLY correct layout of backspace/backslash/enter.
all other arrangements are WRONG! all three keys MUST be EXACTLY like this!
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: lowpoly on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:26:17: Quote from: cmr;17674
all three keys MUST be EXACTLY like this!
Looks like the tiny keyboard in your sig has a vertical enter. ;)
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: cmr on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:28:23: yeah... well... that depends on your font.

in DejaVu Sans it also has only 24 letter keys...
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: dougy on Fri, 09 January 2009, 18:33:48: Nice photo of that old typewriter. Its even older than what I learned on....

Remember that the migration to electric (electronic) entry was a very gradual process and its also important that using any data entry was a lower class job. When journalists/writers were using typewriters their job was still considered blue collar. An author would work longhand (the professional by dictaphone) and then pass on the draft to a typist. Then the teletype came along with its need for control characters. The only place left to put a new key was beside the space bar. First time I saw one there was no clue what that strange key was for.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xsphat on Sat, 10 January 2009, 00:09:19: Quote from: dougy;17677
An author would work longhand (the professional by dictaphone) and then pass on the draft to a typist.

Plenty of authors wrote on typewriters. Kerouac, Hemingway, Fitzgerald and Hunter S. Thompson all did. They span from the early part to the middle of the last century. In fact, some modern authors still type their first drafts on typewriters. I Had an old Remington typewriter back in the day and I could not imagine going back to it. I'm not calling you out or anything, just saying.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 10 January 2009, 00:44:37: a lot of the most successful authors today write their books in long hand on legalpads. Gore vidal does, also a bunch of the historians they interviewed on c-span's booknotes recently all said they write longhand. I think only one of them used a computer.

Apparently j.k. rowling doesnt even do that, she lies on a couch and narrates her books to a secretary who writes them down in shorthand. lol.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: D-EJ915 on Sat, 10 January 2009, 01:07:50: Quote from: wellington1869;17717
a lot of the most successful authors today write their books in long hand on legalpads. Gore vidal does, also a bunch of the historians they interviewed on c-span's booknotes recently all said they write longhand. I think only one of them used a computer.

Apparently j.k. rowling doesnt even do that, she lies on a couch and narrates her books to a secretary who writes them down in shorthand. lol.
heh, with all that money she can afford to do it
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 10 January 2009, 01:11:00: Quote from: D-EJ915;17718
heh, with all that money she can afford to do it

i know, I'd love to have a freaking secretary.

i wonder if anyone has come up with an e-secretary service yet (with simple editing and shopping chores done remotely by someone in china or india, lol).
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: Therac-25 on Sat, 10 January 2009, 01:13:30: Not sure where this fits in the discussion:

Quote

"If you are a professional writer - i.e. if someone else is getting paid to worry about how your words are formatted and printed - emacs outshines all other editing software in approximately the same way that the noonday sun does the stars." -- Neal Stephenson (http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html)
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xsphat on Sat, 10 January 2009, 02:06:28: Yeah writers are a strange bunch and I fit right in with them — trust me. The truth is the vast majority of writers use a text editor or word processor. I bet more poets use a notebook than a computer, and reporters use both.

I outline my longer works on 3x5 cards but I only write on my MacBook.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: wellington1869 on Sat, 10 January 2009, 02:09:56: Quote from: xsphat;17724

I outline my longer works on 3x5 cards but I only write on my MacBook.

I did that until recently. I looked around for a computer substitute for that outlining process and had a hard time finding one. These days I type up notes, print them up, take a scissors and cut them up, and then rearrange those on my bed (like with the 3x5 cards). I guess the only difference is not having to use a pen anymore.

Quote

i know, I'd love to have a freaking secretary.

At one point about five of my grad student friends got together and tried to figure out how much it would cost them to collectively hire and share a part time secretary/personal assistant. It was suprisingly affordable if you split the cost five ways. I dont think they did it though. Too bad, I think they would have benefited.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: dougy on Sat, 10 January 2009, 08:11:40: Quote from: xsphat;17710
Plenty of authors wrote on typewriters. Kerouac, Hemingway, Fitzgerald and Hunter S. Thompson all did. They span from the early part to the middle of the last century. In fact, some modern authors still type their first drafts on typewriters. I Had an old Remington typewriter back in the day and I could not imagine going back to it. I'm not calling you out or anything, just saying.

Good point there, I tend to ignore literature. Was thinking more on the lines of business, technical, legal, educational books. Was trying to make the point of profession vs craft, literature kind of falls outside that as (presumably) the writer is an artist. I still know a few professionals who deem any use of a keyboard as beneath them.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: dougy on Sat, 10 January 2009, 08:12:39: All the talk about control keys has me wondering where the escape key should be placed. Any thoughts on frequency of use or placement?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 10 January 2009, 08:26:18: Quote from: dougy;17739
All the talk about control keys has me wondering where the escape key should be placed. Any thoughts on frequency of use or placement?

I use escape often enough. So I remap the tilde key with the escape key. This gets the escape to sit next to the '1' key.
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: dougy on Sat, 10 January 2009, 18:13:11: Quote from: bigpook;17740
I use escape often enough. So I remap the tilde key with the escape key. This gets the escape to sit next to the '1' key.

I like that for the tilde, but still need the grav accent. Has anyone seen an escape on the far right of the board, say just to the right of the backslash?
Title: Current keyboards with the Control key placed where God intended
Post by: xyzzy on Sun, 11 January 2009, 13:59:57: Quote from: dougy;17790
I like that for the tilde, but still need the grav accent. Has anyone seen an escape on the far right of the board, say just to the right of the backslash?

Like... this one?