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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:14:43

Title: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:14:43: I just received a Leopold FC660M with clears, and have been using it throughout the last few days. Although the build quality and form factor of the keyboard are brilliant, I have to say that I'm a bit let down by the clear-experience. Already using blue and brown boards, I was hoping that the clears would be closer to the browns, just with a 'harder' bump. Instead, the whole experience is a bit, well... mushy. Don't know how to articulate it more clearly than that.
In your experience, do clears change over time? Or is this what I should be expecting down the road as well?

I'm thinking I may have to go with greens...
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: genkidama on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:17:55: I thought by changing the spring with another spring you get more brown-ish ergo clears? Normal clears are more blue-ish switches?
This was my idea about clears so far as I've only started to read into all kinds of switches.
So for me clears seem to be more of a "let's mod these clears" ^^
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: davkol on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:28:41: Stock clears are very different from any common switch except Cherry ML, because they basically stop after actuation instead of letting you bottom out heavily like blues or browns.

If you want just more tactile browns, mod your clears to ergoclears.

Clears need some break-in period and benefit from lubing.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:33:10: Quote from: genkidama on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:17:55
I thought by changing the spring with another spring you get more brown-ish ergo clears?

Hmmm... that would be my first venture into modding switches. Exciting, yet I can see my keyboard budget increasing exponentially!

Quote from: davkol on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:28:41
Clears need some break-in period and benefit from lubing.

Good to see that there may be hope.

Thanks a lot!
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:42:46: They feel terribly mushy, and are quite fatiguing, if you instinctively bottom out on them.

The trick is to allow the instructive force curve to teach you when to release the switch. It's the only switch I've ever used where I've been able to learn to not bottom out on them.

It's an intriguing and somewhat hit-and-miss design. Our apprentice is very happy with my MX Clears board now, so now I should really buy another. I really fancied a Code keyboard, but since Cherry don't make a lot of clear switches, the waiting time is slated to be another year! WTF Cherry? : P

Incidentally, the Code page has a switch poll, of Blue, Brown, Red and Black, but not any other options (e.g. Clear, Green, Tactile Grey etc) which sucks.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:46:24: I love stock clears, so quiet, I never bottom out.

I don't find then mushy at all.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 14 November 2013, 17:49:57: Definitely! I have to say that not bottoming out on clears feels very, very natural (whereas on my browns/blues, I can't help but bottom out). But still, for me, it's like I'm tickling some packaging pillows
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: tp4tissue on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:13:14: I went with clears for a long while before I got over the "hype"..

Playing with ergo Blacks now.. which are "reds" but black stems.. ghetto reds...

(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_098_.gif)
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: stancato9 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:14:05: Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:13:14
I went with clears for a long while before I got over the "hype"..

Playing with ergo Blacks now.. which are "reds" but black stems.. ghetto reds...

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_098_.gif)

So they have the exact same feel as reds?
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:15:34: Cloud of fake boobs?
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: rowdy on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:52:38: Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:15:34
Cloud of fake boobs?

Don't think the switches would work very well if you injected them with silicone.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: LouisHjelmslev on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:15:52: Quote from: rowdy on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:52:38
Quote from: Daniel Beardsmore on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:15:34
Cloud of fake boobs?

Don't think the switches would work very well if you injected them with silicone.

(http://www.rapidonline.com/catalogueimages/module/M061593P01WL.jpg)
Quote from: rowdy on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:52:38
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: noisyturtle on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:35:48: Quote from: tp4tissue on Thu, 14 November 2013, 18:13:14
I went with clears for a long while before I got over the "hype"..

Playing with ergo Blacks now.. which are "reds" but black stems.. ghetto reds...

Show Image
(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_098_.gif)

wat
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38: So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:48:30: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38
So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?

Night and day.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:55:31: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:48:30
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38
So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?

Night and day.
Would they be decent for gaming? I'm worried it might be too heavy.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:57:02: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:55:31
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:48:30
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38
So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?

Night and day.
Would they be decent for gaming? I'm worried it might be too heavy.
Depends which game
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:57:15: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:55:31
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:48:30
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38
So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?

Night and day.
Would they be decent for gaming? I'm worried it might be too heavy.

It's all personnel preference. And I don't game so can't really say.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 14 November 2013, 20:01:11: Well. I guess best bet would be to buy then sell. :)
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 20:02:31: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 20:01:11
Well. I guess best bet would be to buy then sell. :)

Or find a local friend and borrow.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 14 November 2013, 20:05:53: I live in Miami... They are all swaggots... Only friends that own mech boards are reds and blues lol.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Oobly on Fri, 15 November 2013, 04:52:02: You could try modding them to ErgoClears. And adding stickers and lubing them. And trampoline and latex modding them.... Then you get my favourite switch :D

I do admit it takes a bit of effort, though (desoldering, dismantling, cleaning, cutting orings, applying latex, applying lube, inserting oring pieces, reassembling, resoldering), but it's worth it if you're crazy like me. If you're not then I'll roll up me trouser legs and say to you "I've got the Spon!"
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: divito on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:09:56: Really can't wait to try clears, cause all this talk of "not bottoming out" is intriguing as I can't imagine never bottoming out. I'd have to type so slow and careful to not bottom out.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:36:13: Quote from: divito on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:09:56
Really can't wait to try clears, cause all this talk of "not bottoming out" is intriguing as I can't imagine never bottoming out. I'd have to type so slow and careful to not bottom out.

I've researched the concept of bottoming out...(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/th_096_K.gif)

And it is a theory that perhaps when the VERY-first person began talking about bottoming out.. he was trying to impart the fact that you do not need to stiffen your wrist and deeply press the key all the way to the end...

The 2 mm actuation would greatly reduce the PSYCHOLOGICAL urge to hard-press the keys.. thus reducing RSI potential.

So... Bottoming out doesn't simply mean pressing the key to the end.. the trouble of it...actually refers to getting to the end, and making the EXTRA effort to hit-confirm by holding the key while stiffening the wrist..
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: tipo33 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:40:36: I personaly think they are the best switch in the Cherry lineup. I do prefer BS though :D
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:47:47: Quote from: tipo33 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:40:36
I personaly think they are the best switch in the Cherry lineup. I do prefer BS though :D

Objectively I look at it this way.....

The bump-indicator is a form of hit-confirm..

When typing as-fast-as-possible... you really don't have time to notice the bump... and you do not hit-confirm...

so when the bump is "THERE", all it really does once you've reached the GH120wpm standard, is at-best serve as a distraction on-top of adding unneeded resistance prior to actuation..
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Melvang on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:55:47: I just modded my Das to a mix of lubed ergo clears, and lubed browns. I have thin PBT caps on the alpha keys and coming from the stock browns I do bottom out a bit when I get typing faster but for the most part is is DRASTICALLY reduced. Both in frequency and force of actually bottoming out. They just feel amazing. The lubed browns feel amazing as well. Really they feel just like the clears but with a slightly smaller bump.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: McWilloughby on Fri, 15 November 2013, 11:03:48: Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:55:31
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:48:30
Quote from: HUNTERANGEL121 on Thu, 14 November 2013, 19:44:38
So how large of a difference would one notice on clears compared to browns?

Night and day.
Would they be decent for gaming? I'm worried it might be too heavy.

I have both clears and blacks on separate boards. I much prefer the clears for typing (basically never bottom out) and it is OK for gaming. That said, blacks are much better when playing games imo. I wouldn't say either are too heavy (though many do consider blacks/clears to be heavy - I've never thought that).
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: daerid on Fri, 15 November 2013, 11:13:18: I love my clears. Makes for a much softer typing experience. I used to love browns, but eventually the harsh bottoming out made my knuckles hurt. Clears are just perfect. It probably helps that I have big ass gorilla hands, so after getting used to them they don't feel stiff at all.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 12:01:44: Quote from: daerid on Fri, 15 November 2013, 11:13:18
I love my clears. Makes for a much softer typing experience. I used to love browns, but eventually the harsh bottoming out made my knuckles hurt. Clears are just perfect. It probably helps that I have big ass gorilla hands, so after getting used to them they don't feel stiff at all.

if your hands hurt.. this may be due to too-forceful a technique rather than the differences of the switch.

(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/014.gif)
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Moosecraft on Fri, 15 November 2013, 13:23:10: Best cherry switch, but its been a while since I used clicky/linear for a while so my preferences might have changed.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: daerid on Fri, 15 November 2013, 13:34:54: Quote from: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 12:01:44
Quote from: daerid on Fri, 15 November 2013, 11:13:18
I love my clears. Makes for a much softer typing experience. I used to love browns, but eventually the harsh bottoming out made my knuckles hurt. Clears are just perfect. It probably helps that I have big ass gorilla hands, so after getting used to them they don't feel stiff at all.

if your hands hurt.. this may be due to too-forceful a technique rather than the differences of the switch.

I don't doubt it. But it's easier to change switches than two decades worth of habits.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: divito on Fri, 15 November 2013, 14:02:59: Quote from: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:47:47
Objectively I look at it this way.....

The bump-indicator is a form of hit-confirm..

When typing as-fast-as-possible... you really don't have time to notice the bump... and you do not hit-confirm...

so when the bump is "THERE", all it really does once you've reached the GH120wpm standard, is at-best serve as a distraction on-top of adding unneeded resistance prior to actuation..

Mm, I can't say I agree there; not only personally, but from what I've read from others that also dislike linear switches, is that errors increase drastically with reds/blacks when trying to type quickly. I think calling it a distraction and unneeded resistance isn't wholly accurate.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: daerid on Fri, 15 November 2013, 14:21:45: ^^^ agreed. I'm at least 10-15wpm faster on tactile switches than I am on Reds/Blacks.
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: AKmalamute on Fri, 15 November 2013, 14:36:37: again, personal preference. Best way to know for sure what switch design is actually best for your brain -- and your fingers -- is probably nothing less than typing on a keyboard of the design in question for a week or two.

Now that I own a board with blues, I'm getting to like it, but I do find myself realizing that I'm mashing the buttons way down more than half the time. So clears are still at the top of my likely list but maybe greens would be better since, like daerid I tend to get overly enthusiastic about typing, especially when I'm going fast (which is because my mind is flying and I'm just trying to keep up).

My matias tactiles came in recently, but no PCB to put them on. Hopefully spirit will hear from the factory he's working with soon, on that. Matias the guy recently said he'd like to see an ALPs compatible ergodox ...

{ / rubs chin thoughtfully }
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: Linkbane on Fri, 15 November 2013, 15:44:38: Quote from: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:47:47
Quote from: tipo33 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:40:36
I personaly think they are the best switch in the Cherry lineup. I do prefer BS though :D

Objectively I look at it this way.....

The bump-indicator is a form of hit-confirm..

When typing as-fast-as-possible... you really don't have time to notice the bump... and you do not hit-confirm...

so when the bump is "THERE", all it really does once you've reached the GH120wpm standard, is at-best serve as a distraction on-top of adding unneeded resistance prior to actuation..

Blue life. Sound/obvious click!
Title: Re: Opinion on Cherry Clears
Post by: davkol on Fri, 15 November 2013, 16:02:09: Quote from: tp4tissue on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:47:47
Quote from: tipo33 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 10:40:36
I personaly think they are the best switch in the Cherry lineup. I do prefer BS though :D

Objectively I look at it this way.....

The bump-indicator is a form of hit-confirm..

When typing as-fast-as-possible... you really don't have time to notice the bump... and you do not hit-confirm...

so when the bump is "THERE", all it really does once you've reached the GH120wpm standard, is at-best serve as a distraction on-top of adding unneeded resistance prior to actuation..

This.

120 wpm = 600 keystrokes per minute
That means ~100 ms (on average) for each keystroke. Compare that to ones reaction time and don't forget typists have to focus on the text and moving fingers to right locations as well.