geekhack

geekhack Community => Keyboard Keycaps => Topic started by: terran5992 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:41:40

Title: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:41:40: Some keycaps are stuck on the switch , if i pull too hard the stem will come out of the housing.

Is there any way to fix this?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:43:46: There are a few threads about this.

Someone suggested a small amount of lube.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: dragonxx21 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:44:41: Quote from: terran5992 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:41:40
Some keycaps are stuck on the switch , if i pull too hard the stem will come out of the housing.

Is there any way to fix this?
Prevention is the best way! Add a little drop of lube when putting on key caps.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: metalliqaz on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:46:35: Lube? ugh I would never do that.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:49:22: But the problem is that it is already stuck there. Any way to get it out?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:54:56: Quote from: terran5992 on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:49:22
But the problem is that it is already stuck there. Any way to get it out?

Very carefully with a key puller. This is a good time to have one of these.

Sorry my tapatalk isn't working properly with images.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: RaVNzCRoFT on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:55:14: I guess your best bet is just to pull very slowly and be sure to wiggle side to side. If the stem comes out of the housing, I suppose you could use a keycap puller on the keycap while pulling on the stem with needlenose pliers.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: metalliqaz on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:55:24: I just yanked some caps off of some brand new Clears. They were really on there but I just yanked hard and they came off.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Pacifist on Fri, 15 November 2013, 23:59:20: You have to pull fast so the stem stays in place due to inertia :p
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:06:51: Oh ****, accidently pulled out the stem...

HELP
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:10:13: Yeah the yanking fast is a bad idea....

What board is it?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:11:16: The stem + switch top? Or just the stem? If the latter, you need to desolder, unless your keyboard has a plate that allows opening switches without desoldering.

I'd never yank--there've been reports of keycap stems breaking and can be trouble for the switch too.
(on the plus side, my thick PBT Vortex caps fit fairly loosely over clears vs others I've tried, so it's not a problem :) )
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:12:22: Its a korean custom, ps2avr PCB

The stem came out, the switch top is still intact
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:14:33: Hm, I would check if the plate has openings around the sides of the switch, if you can open the tops with something like the Beast's tools or improvised tools. You need to open the top and reinsert the stem. If you can't open it, you need to desolder and then open the switch and reassemble.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:20:42: (http://i1290.photobucket.com/albums/b534/terran5994/10FC8130-01C4-4798-AFEA-232A6CF90CE4-320-0000002ECAE8B10F_zps6a153924.jpg)
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:21:45: Which keyboard is it exactly? Can't see the sides around the switch too well, but looks like not the kind of plate where you can open the switches. Unclear though as the angle is ambiguous.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:22:51: Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:21:45
Which keyboard is it exactly? Can't see the sides around the switch too well, but looks like not the kind of plate where you can open the switches. Unclear though as the angle is ambiguous.

It uses a ps2avr, and has a custom acrylic case and plate
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:23:19: Oh and it has LEDS
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:24:54: Doh right, the LEDs should have been a giveaway for the answer. Yeah, I'm afraid you have to desolder the LED and the switch. Open up the switch, and resolder :(
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:26:30: Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:24:54
Doh right, the LEDs should have been a giveaway for the answer. Yeah, I'm afraid you have to desolder the LED and the switch. Open up the switch, and resolder :(

The whole board or just that swtich?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:28:00: Quote from: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:26:30
Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:24:54
Doh right, the LEDs should have been a giveaway for the answer. Yeah, I'm afraid you have to desolder the LED and the switch. Open up the switch, and resolder :(

The whole board or just that swtich?

Just that particular switch. 4 joints: 2 for the LED and 2 for the switch.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:31:58: Oh that's good to hear.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: metalliqaz on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:33:22: Oh man I'm sorry :(
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:35:48: Yeah, Clears are the devil for some keycaps ;( I don't use some keycaps on Clears specifically for that reason. I test them first. If they are too tight--don't use.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: stancato9 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:36:25: Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:35:48
Yeah, Clears are the devil for some keycaps ;(

What makes clears different? Is the stem physically larger?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:37:14: There's a thread I posted a while ago, I'll look for it. Posted photos. The stem seems to be a bit different at the top. It locks onto the keycaps better.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:37:26: Quote from: stancato9 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:36:25
Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:35:48
Yeah, Clears are the devil for some keycaps ;(

What makes clears different? Is the stem physically larger?

There is a whole thread about it, I'd link it but my phone is being dumb.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:39:49: Here's one:
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=45122
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:41:46: FWIW I've had the issue with brand new clears and cherry double shots.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:42:46: I've had it with many different keycaps. The only ones that have been okay so far have been thick Vortex PBT dye sub caps.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:43:45: This is what I was trying to post earlier. Best key puller for this situation.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: stancato9 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 01:01:02: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:43:45
This is what I was trying to post earlier. Best key puller for this situation.

How would you use this in that situation? It looks like you would only be able to get it under one side of the cap and the weight wouldn't be evenly distributed.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 01:03:05: It goes underneath the cap and lifts up, its like a pry bar.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 01:04:55: I use a long flat object to gradually wiggle a stuck cap upwards. Like insert it under the cap along the switch and push up. Then insert from another direction and do the same. Rinse, repeat.
(in before jokes about inserting long objects)
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 01:09:01: Hmm is it remotely possible to squeeze the stem back into the housing?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 01:16:40: I don't think so. Just tried it to confirm. You can file the top of your switch cover slightly to increase the opening size and try. But... then you'd be pulling out the stem every time you remove keycaps. And you don't want to enlarge it enough for the stem to come out easily.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Austin Powers on Sat, 16 November 2013, 03:34:58: Was wondering... Do stock mech keyboards have ready-lube on cherry mx stems?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SuperiorKarate on Sat, 16 November 2013, 06:48:22: x
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 07:15:15: Quote from: Austin Powers on Sat, 16 November 2013, 03:34:58
Was wondering... Do stock mech keyboards have ready-lube on cherry mx stems?

I'm assuming you mean on the top.

No.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Austin Powers on Sat, 16 November 2013, 07:44:55: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 07:15:15
Quote from: Austin Powers on Sat, 16 November 2013, 03:34:58
Was wondering... Do stock mech keyboards have ready-lube on cherry mx stems?

I'm assuming you mean on the top.

No.

Damn, I hope mine doesn't grip tight when I try to swap.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sat, 16 November 2013, 07:49:52: Just don't get carried away and you should be fine.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Belfong on Sat, 16 November 2013, 09:04:05: I only have WASD Code which is Clears. And I have the Vortex PBT caps from feng in its way. The discussion seems to be around other key caps being unsuitable for Clears because of the way it's stem was. But what about the stock key cap? Would it be hard to remove the stock caps from Code before I put on the new stuff? Any experience?
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Oobly on Sat, 16 November 2013, 11:25:26: I test caps with a loose clear switch and if they're stiff I put on them on the loose switch and pull them off again a few times until they loosen up enough to be acceptable. Has worked well enough with those tight POM caps from Banggood and some PBT.

Desolder the LED and switch and remove it completely from the board. Then open it up with a small screwdriver and reassemble with the stem in place. Then place the switch and LED back in place and add a little fresh solder to each joint. Done. Unfortunately I can't think of an easier way to get this done without damaging something.

Sorry this happened and good luck with it.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: berserkfan on Sat, 16 November 2013, 13:13:44: Your study was a superb example of geekhackery, Photoelectric. We really needed these closeups.

I, too, had been wondering why my clears seemed to have more problems with keycaps.

This is not something most people can just tell at a glance. (EG you had to zoom in with camera to show the bigger clears bump.)

But when that's said and done, I have had vintage clears and new clears, and on different keycaps, they were never so tight as to have serious problems. At worst it was only 'harder to pull out'.

I'm wondering if there is a problem with Terran's custom made keyboard. Too bad they are doubleshots. If they were PBT I would suggest heating them slightly to see if they can expand and be removed more easily.

Terran, I'm thinking of one possibility. Try it on a spare switch first. Put a stem in the fridge to cool it, then use a bit of lube, and see if you can push it back in from the top. Otherwise you have to desolder both switch and LEDs.

Quote from: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 00:42:46
I've had it with many different keycaps. The only ones that have been okay so far have been thick Vortex PBT dye sub caps.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 13:21:48: It's not just Terran's--I've pulled out the stems too on brand new Clears--albeit with top covers, as my keyboards have plates that allow for top removal. So it wasn't a huge issue, as I could reassemble the switches quickly. But it's a real problem for those who can't do that. That's why testing each new keycap set on a switch or two is important. Some keycaps pop in and you hear them click onto the switch. Then good luck removing them easily. What I find helps is removing the caps gently, maybe a few attempts per cap. Gradually getting it off the stem.

It's likely that your keycaps were on the loose side, especially if you use thick PBT. I hear it tends to wear out around the stems for looser fit. Certainly fits with what I'm experiencing with the Vortex thick PBT keycaps--they are fairly easy to remove from MX Clears.

P.S.: I've updated the OP in that thread.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Belfong on Sat, 16 November 2013, 18:08:46: Photoelectric, if you have pulled out stem from modern clears, then your other post where you emphasized that it does not happen to modern clears need a rewrite, I think.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 16 November 2013, 18:13:58: Already rewritten as noted above! Additional photographs of modern Clears added as well.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: catnipz0098 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 19:32:00: I might not get clears. :-X Don't want to risk a stuck keycap :(
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 17 November 2013, 06:13:49: Quote from: catnipz0098 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 19:32:00
I might not get clears. :-X Don't want to risk a stuck keycap :(

It's not normally that big of an issue. If by chance you get right fitting caps you just have to remove carefully.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sun, 17 November 2013, 07:47:26: Quote from: catnipz0098 on Sat, 16 November 2013, 19:32:00
I might not get clears. :-X Don't want to risk a stuck keycap :(

Might just be the cheap ass tai hao double shots causing the problem
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: jeffgran on Sun, 17 November 2013, 16:57:01: Glad to know it's not just me. I had this problem with my clears on my ergodox and the blank black DSAs. On a couple of them I ripped off the whole top of the switch with the cap still on there, using the WASD key puller. I started wiggling back and forth while removing them and that seemed to help. But man, they really get stuck on there.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Sun, 17 November 2013, 19:24:17: Quote from: jeffgran on Sun, 17 November 2013, 16:57:01
Glad to know it's not just me. I had this problem with my clears on my ergodox and the blank black DSAs. On a couple of them I ripped off the whole top of the switch with the cap still on there, using the WASD key puller. I started wiggling back and forth while removing them and that seemed to help. But man, they really get stuck on there.

Really? Wiggling seems to make it worse
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Sun, 17 November 2013, 19:31:26: Quote from: jeffgran on Sun, 17 November 2013, 16:57:01
Glad to know it's not just me. I had this problem with my clears on my ergodox and the blank black DSAs. On a couple of them I ripped off the whole top of the switch with the cap still on there, using the WASD key puller. I started wiggling back and forth while removing them and that seemed to help. But man, they really get stuck on there.

The DSA are known to fit tighter anyways, it is part of their design. However there were some runs of DSA caps that had stem issues that made them even tighter, but that tooling was fixed a while ago.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50: http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Dreamre on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:56:23: I find that once the clears have keycaps that are removed at least once, it gets easier to remove afterwards.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:24:23: Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

This is a nice concept, but I just use a loose clear switch to do this. On and off a few times and voila!
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:28:31: Quote from: Oobly on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:24:23
Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

This is a nice concept, but I just use a loose clear switch to do this. On and off a few times and voila!

But what if the first time you put the caps on they get stuck
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Photoelectric on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:33:48: I'd test on one-two switches. If too tight... probably wouldn't use those keycaps and save them for another keyboard with something other than Clears. Or try some lubricant maybe.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 19 November 2013, 03:21:12: Quote from: terran5992 on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:28:31
Quote from: Oobly on Tue, 19 November 2013, 01:24:23
Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

This is a nice concept, but I just use a loose clear switch to do this. On and off a few times and voila!

But what if the first time you put the caps on they get stuck

It's easier to pull a stuck cap off a loose switch than one in a board. Wiggle while you pull. May feel like it isn't helping, but it does come off more easily. I have a set of really tight POM caps (Bangood ones) and a few times on and off again (3 or 4 per keycap) with the loose switch makes them loose enough to not worry about putting them on a board. A little tighter than stock ABS caps, but not so tight that they'd pull a stem out!
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: terran5992 on Tue, 19 November 2013, 04:13:42: I managed to remove the stuck keycaps by using a pair of tweezers like this

(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/knorre/knorre1102/knorre110200041/8925005-3d-rendered-metal-medical-tweezers.jpg)
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: metalliqaz on Tue, 19 November 2013, 11:22:39: This thread: Giggity.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 November 2013, 11:23:30: Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

I'm seriously considering attempting to do something like that just for the heck of it.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Oobly on Tue, 19 November 2013, 11:27:08: Quote from: terran5992 on Tue, 19 November 2013, 04:13:42
I managed to remove the stuck keycaps by using a pair of tweezers like this

Show Image
(http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/knorre/knorre1102/knorre110200041/8925005-3d-rendered-metal-medical-tweezers.jpg)

Great! Congrats. Let us know if you come right with the one where the stem came out.
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: Mikey Mo on Tue, 19 November 2013, 14:06:22: Oh,...some keycaps is very hard to pull....need carefully , you can polish l think ,,just a suggestion
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 19 November 2013, 14:26:10: Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 November 2013, 11:23:30
Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

I'm seriously considering attempting to do something like that just for the heck of it.

Me too, but as with most other projects I lack the time to actually do it... ^^;
Title: Re: Tight Cherry MX Clear
Post by: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 November 2013, 14:54:57: Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Tue, 19 November 2013, 14:26:10
Quote from: SpAmRaY on Tue, 19 November 2013, 11:23:30
Quote from: TheSoulhunter on Mon, 18 November 2013, 12:11:50
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=49752.msg1081987#msg1081987

I'm seriously considering attempting to do something like that just for the heck of it.

Me too, but as with most other projects I lack the time to actually do it... ^^;

Yes I know that all too well :(