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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: DrinkTea on Sun, 17 November 2013, 20:04:27
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And why are they so expensive? Is it mainly the metal cases? I know those can be expensive to machine. And how would they compare to, say, a heavily modded QFR or Filco, for example? Is it more of a status symbol and being have to have exactly what you want and that extra few percent of quality is where the cost is? Or would I really notice a huge difference typing on one of these and something else with the same switches?
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No, a heavily modded Filco will still not feel similar to a custom with a metal case, unless you get an aluminum case for it too. I've owned heavily modded Filcos and now an LZ-GH--the difference is significant. That's not to say it will feel worse--it's a matter of preference. I really like heavy dampened cases now.
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So what does the metal case add? Just sound dampening?
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So what does the metal case add? Just sound dampening?
I would guess that it makes it feel more "solid"
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So what does the metal case add? Just sound dampening?
A luxurious feel. I don't have a custom but I've had the chance to play with a few in person.
Bragging rights.
I really hope this isn't really one of the top reasons...it seems really sad.
LOOK EVERYONE, I HAVE A SUPERCOOL EXPENSIVE KOREAN CUSTOM AND YOU DONT. I DEMAND RESPECT AROUND THIS FORUM NOW.
No offense to those with customs. I'd buy one if I had a huge disposable income solely because it's a luxury item -- not because I'm looking to brag on a niche enthusiast forum. Normal people would laugh hysterically.
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Bragging rights.
*I do realize there are those out there who truly appreciate their custom boards :thumb:
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So what does the metal case add? Just sound dampening?
I would guess that it makes it feel more "solid"
Wouldn't it do more than make it feel solid? Its pretty strong metal, compared to the flimsy cases that manufactures make for cheap
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Resale value.
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Might be different for others, but for me - a custom is like buying a kit car (ex. GT40) and then putting everything you want into it as a custom/specialised project.
Yes, you can by other cars (for cheaper) but its just not the same.
At least that's my take.
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Resale value.
Do used customs typically not depreciate in value?
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Resale value.
Do used customs typically not depreciate in value?
Not yet. So far, there's always a demand for already built customs in the classifieds, especially for the rare/limited edition keyboards. Most of the customs I've seen go up for sale tend to sell at or a little above the purchase + shipping price.
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Ok well let's break it down. I spent around $250 to get my last Filco to have a custom plate to swap switches, stickers, keyboard itself, programmable controller, and new springs + switches. Then there was still no LED backlight compatibility and the case was still plastic. Add 150 for a basic aluminum case (say, a Vortex), and we're at ~$400. Still no backlight, but you get the idea. That's how you get to high prices.
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Different people will have different weight on any or all of the reasons below for having a custom:
- rarity
- e-peen
- feel
- programmable
- layout
- DIY
- customization
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Different people will have different weight on any or all of the reasons below for having a custom:
- rarity
- e-peen
- feel
- programmable
- layout
- DIY
- customization
Reason enough for me, although I can't afford one (yet) ha!
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Different people will have different weight on any or all of the reasons below for having a custom:
- feel
- programmable
- layout
- DIY
- customization
I'm pretty much all about those points above, which is why I wanted them. I did all I could to my Filcos, but then still wanted more.
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I'm really interested in this too. I bought the filco over the cm quickfire rapid because everyone here said it was simply "a better board". Its just made better. Can someone tell me if that's the case with customs? If I had a korean custom and a Filco, and I didn't care about any of the extras - which would be the better board?
Where do you even go about buying a custom anyway?
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As someone who owns two aluminum-cased Filcos, the main downsides I see compared to a Korean/custom winkey board are lack of LED lighting, no possibility of off-center Caps Lock, and no option for Cherry stabilizers. I purchased one of the cases full retail from mechanicalkeyboards.com and added it to a Filco I already owned and purchased the second keyboard with the preowned case. I know for a fact that there is no way in hell I could own two Korean aluminum boards for the same price, and that the initial $150 purchase/upgrade to my stock Camo Filco made me decide that I would look for another secondhand Filco rather than lust after a Korean board.
If you want to use winkeyless vintage Cherry sets, have customized LED lighting, experiment with switches constantly, or build something from scratch (if you so desire), your only option is custom. Those are things a stock Filco will never do, and only one of those things can be solved by a plate swap (which adds complications by making you fabricate standoffs if you want to use them in an aluminum case). Plus, there is no denying the design of Korean boards like my personal favorite, the 356L.
BUT!
If you just want a winkey board, like Co-star stabilizers, don't want LEDs, and really just like your basic Filco but wish it didn't have a creaky plastic case: Buy a metal case. Filcos are nicely made keyboards out of the factory, I'm not sure why everyone is so keen to chop them up so quickly. You can set them up with a spring/switch combo of your liking with a soldering iron, but don't be expecting to pop tops for easy repairs if you pull a stem or your OCD kicks in and makes you want to lube your sliders again. A Filco with a new case is pretty much as close to a fuss free keyboard as you can get after popping the warranty sticker. There are no issues with firmware or programming or anything, it is as simple as it was from the factory in a shiny and heavy new dress.
Basically, know what is important to you about the keyboard. If you want winkeyless, you have no choice, you have to go custom. But if you want a winkey board, think about how much deviation from the norm you want in the finished product, and then go from there. I decided that backlighting and an offcenter Caps Lock wasn't worth the $100+ difference in cost between the full MSRP of the Filco and case compared to something like a KMAC ($410 without switches for the unassembled kit). I did want to get into the Skeldon Phantom case buy to have a metal case for my phantom kit that is collecting dust, but that was going to be $350+ for a case once anodizing, shipping, and fees were complete. I think it's cheaper than people expect to get into the realm of metal keyboards. A used Filco and used Vortex case are sitting in independent listings in the classifieds for $110 and $120 respectively, so you can technically get a working metal-cased keyboard for $230 and shipping (even cheaper if you want to put in a QFR with a replacement USB cable and deal with the empty LED holes in the case).
So yeah. Custom keyboards are cool, and offer things unavailable from larger-scale manufacturers. However, I love my two Filcos, and see no logical reason to "upgrade" either to a Korean custom. I hope options like the Vortex case are more common for QFRs and Filcos, because the increase in stability and general imposing mass of a metal case really does make them feel rock-solid.
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doublepost
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And why are they so expensive? Is it mainly the metal cases? I know those can be expensive to machine. And how would they compare to, say, a heavily modded QFR or Filco, for example? Is it more of a status symbol and being have to have exactly what you want and that extra few percent of quality is where the cost is? Or would I really notice a huge difference typing on one of these and something else with the same switches?
As someone who spent a lot modding a stock Filco, I can say without certainty that it feels completely different in every respect to it's original form. Aside from the switches(replaced browns w/ ergo clears,) the lubing had a significant impact on the overall feel allowing for a much smoother tactile bump and getting rid of any switch sticking issues an ergo clear board might have(not convinced the stickers do anything though.) Besides the switches themselves, the case is what had the most noticeable impact on the feel of the board. I'm using a Vortex aluminum case which cost about the same as the actual board, if not slightly more, with an impact pad inside under the PCB. There is absolutely no flex when typing, it's a totally solid and stable feeling, as well as changing the feel when bottoming out and the sound the board makes. I actually find the metal case quiets the board a bit more than a plastic one does, but that could partly be because of the pad inside.
So really, each change you make to an existing board. Changing the caps to a thick PBT will change the feeling right off the bat. Besides all this, just the feeling of having molded something to your wants and tastes is enough to warrant every keyboard fanatic building at least one custom for themselves.
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Thanks a ton for the info. Yea, I'm not going to go for a Korean custom just yet. I've already ordered my caps and my filco board, now I'm trying to decide on whether or not I should go with an aluminum case. Is there any drawback to it? How hard is it to install?
Is the stock plastic case really "creaky" like you mentioned in your post?
EDIT: Also, just curious - is there a general consensus on what the "best" most expensive awesome board is? Something that just kicks the pants off of everything else and costs, likely, accordingly?
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Thanks a ton for the info. Yea, I'm not going to go for a Korean custom just yet. I've already ordered my caps and my filco board, now I'm trying to decide on whether or not I should go with an aluminum case. Is there any drawback to it? How hard is it to install?
Is the stock plastic case really "creaky" like you mentioned in your post?
EDIT: Also, just curious - is there a general consensus on what the "best" most expensive awesome board is? Something that just kicks the pants off of everything else and costs, likely, accordingly?
Extremely easy to install, all you need is a small screwdriver. You might also consider picking up some grip pad material to put inside under your PCB to keep the case from scratching inside, prevent any slipping, act as a small cushion, and lowering noise.
[attachimg=1]
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Regarding 'the best': Not really - there are many great ones to suit various aesthetic and tactile preferences. Like KMACs are popular, but I personally don't care for them. Most will be very good, and you can always ask for feedback on those you're interested in. There will be different layouts, shapes, inclines, etc.
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Thanks a ton for the info. Yea, I'm not going to go for a Korean custom just yet. I've already ordered my caps and my filco board, now I'm trying to decide on whether or not I should go with an aluminum case. Is there any drawback to it? How hard is it to install?
Is the stock plastic case really "creaky" like you mentioned in your post?
EDIT: Also, just curious - is there a general consensus on what the "best" most expensive awesome board is? Something that just kicks the pants off of everything else and costs, likely, accordingly?
The two piece case would naturally move a little bit, I was a bit hyperbolic, mostly because a metal case does not move. Even using the conical feet on a Vortex case (I have little rubber bumpers on the bottom), I place it on any surface and it will sit there like an anchor. I used to put the edge of my keyboard onto my mousepad, and sometimes the stock case would slip or the height difference would actually kink it a little bit so that I had to straighten the case out with a light twist to get it to lay on flat surfaces again.
The hardest part of putting on the new case is not breaking the old one as you take it off. Making sure to get your screws in fully is important, some people had issues with the stock screws (my used one has aftermarket longer screws to hold the thicker half), but Blackie (yes, named after Clapton's favorite) has the screws that came in the box, I just had to make sure they were seated correctly because the anodizing made them a bit of a snug fit.
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"The two piece case would naturally move a little bit"
Can you explain that for me?
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"The two piece case would naturally move a little bit"
Can you explain that for me?
I had a thicker mousepad. On both QFRs and both Filcos I had, because the case closes with a clamshell fitting and basically locking plastic tabs, there has to be some tolerance room for movement. If I rested only one edge on a thick mousepad while keeping the other side low, enough time of hammering on the keyboard could sometimes make it sit funny when I went to place it on a flat surface (countertop or roommates desk). It isn't a build slight, it's just a matter of it being plastic. I really did notice the switch to a metal case because it simply made my keyboard an inanimate object, rather than the lightweight and mobile feeling stock case. This is also a downside: I didn't mind throwing a stock quickfire in my backpack and skating over to a nearby LAN, but now with the 4+ pound boards, I have to be conscious of their mass and hard edges. I almost **** my pants once when I dropped one setting it down on my glass table...
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To answer this question, we need to understand, what it means to have a penis on the Internet.
Just kidding. Not every custom is Korean anyway.
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Because we are keyboard enthusiasts. We like to do it on our own and we like the best.
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this question... again?
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Different people will have different weight on any or all of the reasons below for having a custom:
- rarity
- e-peen
- feel
- programmable
- layout
- DIY
- customization
+1
I personally like to add two more reasons to that. One is that they are personalised (which I guess it also fits under customisation as well).
The other is that it is likely the keyboard in question is made with love, the smaller/newer companies or group of people making it would be a sign that the keyboard was not manufacturered wholly by machine process. I guess it is kind of similar to those whom appreciates cars that are hand built/assembled than from cars that are manufactured by a huge manufacturer whom is more interested in pumping out large volumes of the same car to the masses.
That said, it would be somewhat a wrong statement to say that the bigger the manufacturer the lesser they will care about craftsmanship but the general perception is as such is basically that.
To answer this question, we need to understand, what it means to have a penis on the Internet.
Just kidding. Not every custom is Korean anyway.
+1
Considering how broad the question/topic the OP has mentioned, one can easily include keyboards like those steampunk keyboard designs (http://walyou.com/steampunk-keyboards/).
Again it is really all about adding your own personal flair to it so that the keyboard looks like it was custom built. Others may drool or be inspired by your custom keyboard but otherwise the keyboard is uniquely yours.
Because we are keyboard enthusiasts. We like to do it on our own and we like the best.
I think we also (as a result of being enthusiast) can also appreciate to an extent of both ours and customisations done by others. It pays to belong in a likeminded group.
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Most of those steampunk keyboards are just modded ordinary ones.
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Most of those steampunk keyboards are just modded ordinary ones.
Exactly, but that does not necessarily mean you can buy a keyboard exactly like theirs from any distributor/manufacturer. This is why they are custom.
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Most of those steampunk keyboards are just modded ordinary ones.
Exactly, but that does not necessarily mean you can buy a keyboard exactly like theirs from any distributor/manufacturer. This is why they are custom.
Huh? Datamancer sells those keyboards AFAIK.
Maltrons are more custom than that.
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Sounds to me like the custom board could double as a weapon if the case is metal, thoughts? :p
Anyways... they sound pretty awesome if you are someone who likes to tinker. Does building the custom board require a good amount of soldering skill or could it be a good first soldering project?
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Sounds to me like the custom board could double as a weapon if the case is metal, thoughts? :p
Anyways... they sound pretty awesome if you are someone who likes to tinker. Does building the custom board require a good amount of soldering skill or could it be a good first soldering project?
There are many people who have built their ergodox without any prior soldering skills.
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To answer this question, we need to understand, what it means to have a penis on the Internet.
Just kidding. Not every custom is Korean anyway.
This is very true, and I should have mentioned in my posts too. ErgoDox is indeed a great example of a custom keyboard. As is the 40% project headed by JDCarpe here on GeekHack. And many other projects. So yeah, customs come in many different flavors, and it's up to everyone to pick what they like or wait for something different to come along, or even participate in designing it. Depending on materials and number of units produced, prices can be lower or higher. Definitely though Korean customs have a reputation of being expensive and sometimes overpriced for resale, but I think if they were more local, prices would be slightly lower without overseas shipping. Also their "exclusivity", in addition to very high quality of production, makes them more "collectable", so many people are willing to pay a premium. But one could definitely have a $300 or cheaper custom keyboard by going with an acrylic case package or using cheaper internals and just buying a metal case (like a modded used CM QFR + a vortex aluminum case or a Poker I or II with an aluminum case of some sort). And there've been some cheaper group buys here and there, such as Duck LightSaver ($285) and LZ Aluminum Skin series ($180)--can always wait for those.