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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: bigpook on Sat, 17 January 2009, 07:09:33

Title: Qwerty?
Post by: bigpook on Sat, 17 January 2009, 07:09:33
This may be an interesting read...


http://www.reason.com/news/show/29944.html
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: pmyshkin on Sun, 10 May 2009, 04:24:06
Quote from: webwit;75176
One rogue researcher claimed qwerty was best against rsi, because it was like taking a run around the block, while dvorak/colemak was like sitting on your ass in front of the tv...


Do you have a citation on this?

It seems to me like travel distance doesn't have to be the only objective measure. For example, one can imagine constructing an anatomical computer model of human hands typing, and calculating the stresses of each type of layout. The carpalx site you mentioned seems to be trying to approximate this very roughly.

I find it a little scary that random people are advocating new layouts. Who knows what the long term effects of typing on a particular layout will be?
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: huha on Sun, 10 May 2009, 07:09:19
Quote from: pmyshkin;90111
I find it a little scary that random people are advocating new layouts. Who knows what the long term effects of typing on a particular layout will be?


It's not like it will kill you, so I don't see any problems with this. It's just a bloody keyboard layout; if it's crap, you'll most likely suffer from low typing speed more than anything else.

-huha
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: pmyshkin on Sun, 10 May 2009, 13:02:30
Quote from: huha;90118
It's not like it will kill you, so I don't see any problems with this. It's just a bloody keyboard layout; if it's crap, you'll most likely suffer from low typing speed more than anything else.


I was thinking more along the lines of RSI. I just started trying to learn colemak, and it seems to be putting strain on my right hand. I guess it might be just because there are certain finger rolls I'm not used to yet, but the pain is significant.*

*Typed at 10 wpm on colemak layout.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Viett on Sun, 10 May 2009, 13:51:35
A very interesting article indeed. They mostly concentrate on the practical application of an alternative layout, and it's pretty easy to see there is little, even if Dvorak's claims were correct. I've just been learning alternative layouts for fun. I don't think I'll ever surpass my QWERTY speeds in any other layout, though. I do believe that some layouts are easier to type than others, which makes them ideal for someone who wants to increase their comfort level.

(Typed in Colemak, just for sport)
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 10 May 2009, 18:05:03
The only way alternative keyboard layouts can thrive is if Microsoft etc. make it a totally trivial matter to change between layouts. It's already very easy, but if an employer locks down their PCs tightly for security reasons, you can't do it.

Imagine if alternative keyboard layouts were installed as standard, and that you could swap easily via the ctrl-alt-del / task manager dialogue. That would make it easy AND reduce support issues that would be a risk otherwise.

If that happened I would junk QWERTY in a heartbeat. I wonder if petitioning Microsoft would have any effect. (Rhetorical question, tbh.)
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: FunkTrooper on Sun, 10 May 2009, 18:25:33
Quote from: Rajagra;90199
The only way alternative keyboard layouts can thrive is if Microsoft etc. make it a totally trivial matter to change between layouts. It's already very easy, but if an employer locks down their PCs tightly for security reasons, you can't do it.

Imagine if alternative keyboard layouts were installed as standard, and that you could swap easily via the ctrl-alt-del / task manager dialogue. That would make it easy AND reduce support issues that would be a risk otherwise.

If that happened I would junk QWERTY in a heartbeat. I wonder if petitioning Microsoft would have any effect. (Rhetorical question, tbh.)


Even if you can't change the settings on a Windows PC, you can usually run .exe files from USB drives, and if you can do that, you can just use Autohotkey to change your layout.  I know it's not an ideal solution, but it's pretty easy to do.  The only problem I find is that sometimes it doesn't quite work, and a few keypresses will be read as if they were qwerty.  This can be resolved by increasing the priority of the autohotkey.exe process; doing this every time is a little irritating.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: MANISH7 on Sun, 10 May 2009, 18:33:37
unicomp says on their website that ps2 versions of the keyboard can be programmed at the time of manufacture. is it possible to ask them to program the keyboard to dvorak layout? so this means that the keyboard intrinsically does dvorak no matter where you use it. only downside is that you probably couldn't re-map the keyboard with other softwares like even windows.

i only heard about colemak one week ago (from webwit) whereas i've been learning dvorak for 2 months now. 2 months ago i thought about switching layouts because of my wrist pain. ever since i switched to brown cherry switches for BS, my wrists feel just fine.

is there merit to colemak's claim that dvorak makes your right hand work too much?
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Rajagra on Sun, 10 May 2009, 18:39:55
Quote from: FunkTrooper;90202
Even if you can't change the settings on a Windows PC, you can usually run .exe files from USB drives, and if you can do that, you can just use Autohotkey to change your layout.
In the places I'm talking about you would then get fired for running an unauthorised program, compromising security.  :frown:
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Viett on Sun, 10 May 2009, 19:24:52
Quote from: MANISH7;90203

is there merit to colemak's claim that dvorak makes your right hand work too much?


In my opinion alone, yes. Don't know if this is a bad thing, though. I kind of think it's nice at times because you can completetly rest your left hand on the desk without any strain. It may have an adverse effect on speed, though (there's no way to be sure).
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: pmyshkin on Tue, 12 May 2009, 02:56:45
OP's article claims that the research against qwerty is too naive and biased. Here (http://millikeys.sourceforge.net/misc/why-qwerty.pdf) is a report that seems to address all of that article's concerns and still concludes that qwerty is inferior to dvorak and colemak.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: MANISH7 on Fri, 15 May 2009, 13:44:34
I found this really cool website where you paste or type text and it will analyze it to provide statistics for finger / hand usages in all three layouts (qwerty, dvorak, colemak). I pasted a 12 page essay of mine.

http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/

Dvorak used 53% of my left hand and 47% of right hand. I hit the space bar only with the left thumb. So I don't accept that the right hand does too much work on Dvorak. Colemak slightly shifts the work from your pinky and ring finger to your index finger. Difference is insignificant IMO. Learning Dvorak was easy for me.

Advantages for Colemak: (1) programmer friendly. (2) qwerty shortcut friendly. (3) slightly more efficient.

Since I'm not a programmer and I already mastered qwerty, I'll stick with Dvorak and alternate between layouts on a need basis. I'm not learning a 3rd layout. Besides, I like that Dvorak is an ANSI standard.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: appie747 on Thu, 17 February 2011, 12:09:31
http://www.albertnet.us/2009/06/defendants-i-type-lot.html (http://www.albertnet.us/2009/06/defendants-i-type-lot.html)
This is an article which disputes Liebowitz/Margolis. I came across these two earlier when I was googeling for Dvorak info. I'm someone who learned to touch-type in Dvorak and never touch-typed in qwerty. Reading this article should convince me to learn qwerty? I don't think so! The "analyzer" MANISH7 talks about clearly shows the results, no need to go through age-old studies for that.
Actually, because of the use of staggered keyboards Dvorak is even better because you don't have to leave the home row so much (and shift your left hand fingers to the left) . On a non-staggered keyboard qwerty would do better compared to Dvorak maybe...
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: False_Dmitry_II on Thu, 17 February 2011, 17:46:38
And with that I will never use Dvorak. I'm more or less ambidextrous, but as far as it concerns keyboards I'm more left handed. So I guess I'll stick with qwerty.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Keymonger on Thu, 17 February 2011, 18:11:28
Well, Colemak is better than Dvorak, but it's not without flaws unfortunately. The biggest offender must be the placement of the H key... it's left on the same spot as on Qwerty, but as noted by the dude who designed Workman, that makes typing 'the', which you will type a LOT, a bit uneasy. You type t, reach for h with your right index finger, then hit e with your middle finger. But it's not easy to reach h without slightly moving the middle finger, which slows down the typing of 'the', and it's a pretty annoying movement to boot.

If this isn't a problem for you, then it's really Colemak all the way. But as for me, it's not pleasant at all. Out of Dvorak and Colemak, both are more cumbersome for my hands than the layout I designed, which I happily use.
Lastly, I wanna point out... this layout business isn't as complicated as that dumb article is making it out to be. Finding out if Dvorak or Colemak or whatever is better for you can be found out before learning it. Typing is just a matter of using your fingers to input stuff.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: hoggy on Sat, 19 February 2011, 11:48:33
The article assumes that faster speeds are the best indicator of fitness for a keyboard layout.  Many members here (myself included) remark on increased comfort, not speed.  In fact my typing speed has gone down, and I still believe it's a better layout.

I suspect it's in defense of the Market knows best meme.

A better analogy for market failures might be Greek literature.  Of the tiny percentage that survives, why would it include only the best?  If we found a body frozen in ice, and could revive him/her - it probably wouldn't be the equivalent of Leonardo di Vinci...
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: kill will on Sat, 19 February 2011, 13:26:32
I think people should just stick to qwerty.  most people type with 2 fingers and typing things like lol are easier ... so lol becomes natural because of the layout
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: bugfix on Sat, 19 February 2011, 13:29:59
I for one believe in the superiority of QWERTZ.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: microsoft windows on Sat, 19 February 2011, 13:35:47
I like  Qwerty. It's what's on all the  keyboards  of the computers I use and I  can type  decently  with  it. My hands  never  stay  in the same place when typing though,  especially my right hand. I use mainly my thumb,  pointer, middle, and ring fingers on  my right hand so  it's got to move in order to reach many  keys.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: appie747 on Sun, 17 April 2011, 16:33:53
Quote from: FunkTrooper;90202
Even if you can't change the settings on a Windows PC, you can usually run .exe files from USB drives, and if you can do that, you can just use Autohotkey to change your layout.  I know it's not an ideal solution, but it's pretty easy to do.  The only problem I find is that sometimes it doesn't quite work, and a few keypresses will be read as if they were qwerty.  This can be resolved by increasing the priority of the autohotkey.exe process; doing this every time is a little irritating.

Hi, maybe you know this: I tried Autohotkey, which I haven't really figured out yet, but I used KeyTweak to remap CapsLock to Backspace, that works fine here at home. I probably can't install that at work, but would keytweak work there from a USB drive? And would I have to do that every time I start up the PC?
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: sordna on Thu, 21 April 2011, 14:34:51
Hmm, I learned Dvorak before Colemak came out. I wonder if it's worth switching. Also, for those of you that know Colemak, is it easy to switch back and forth between QWERTY and Colemak? I have a feeling it would be hard because they are so similar. Switching between QWERTY and Dvorak (after you mastered them both) is pretty easy for me, and my guess is it's because they are totally different and therefore hard to confuse.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: sordna on Fri, 22 April 2011, 01:49:51
By the way, here's a good rebuttal to the aforementioned article:
http://dvorak.mwbrooks.com/dissent.html

Dvorak (and colemak, or cerctain other layouts) are clearly better than QWERTY in various ways, any of the online comparison applets can easily demonstrate this.
Also the metric system is WAY better than trying to compare 3/8" to 5/32" to .218" for tools/parts, or remembering that 1lb has 16 ounces but 1 foot has 12 inches, and a mile has 1670 yards, all of which is RIDICULOUS. Yet, the Europeans had the common sense to switch to the metric system, while the US still uses the stupid "imperial" system that came from Europe in the first place. It's a good analogy to the QWERTY nonsense, people just aren't bold enough to make a change in the proper direction.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Fri, 22 April 2011, 02:33:05
Quote
the metric system is WAY better ...


Or it was until logic was displaced by sentiment and the informative names of measures were replaced by "memorial" names, to celebrate certain people.  The most obvious example being temperature.

Under the Fahrenheit scale water froze at 32 degrees, and boiled at 212 degrees, Fahrenheit.  On the other hand, the very name Centigrade ("100 steps" if you will) told exactly what was being measured.  Water froze at 0 degrees and boiled at 100 degrees, Centigrade.  So they changed it to Celsius ... which tells the reader as much as the name Fahrenheit.  Even "foot/pound" (torque) tells you more than "Joule", which requires you to know what a "Newton-Metre" is.

It's not difficult to argue that a certain key layout is better than QWERTY, simply because it could scarcely be any worse.  It was designed to slow the typist down and it does that quite well.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Fri, 22 April 2011, 05:49:37
I tried the keystroke distance measurer, but it doesn't take into account the use of the Thumb for "E" (a home key) in Maltron and the grid layout.  Is there any applet that will allow me to do this?

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: quadibloc on Sun, 22 May 2011, 22:16:20
I saw that article, but given that it's attempting to refute "a case against markets", I have to be mistrustful of the article as a whole, because it was clearly written to defend a particular political point of view - basically, laissez-faire economics.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: hoggy on Mon, 23 May 2011, 02:09:08
Quote from: Proword;335393
I tried the keystroke distance measurer, but it doesn't take into account the use of the Thumb for "E" (a home key) in Maltron and the grid layout.  Is there any applet that will allow me to do this?

Joe

If the "E" should be counted as zero travel, you could use search and replace to remove all of those characters...
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Tue, 24 May 2011, 00:11:59
Thanks for that.  Will give it a bash.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Tue, 24 May 2011, 00:22:03
Turned out to be a pretty pointless exercise, since this particular analyser doesn't seem to be able take account of the difference between a staggered keyboard layout and the grid keyboard of Maltron.

Will have a poke around for something else.

Thanks.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Thu, 15 September 2011, 14:30:44
Well, Qwerty was not designed to slow the typist. It was designed to prevent jamming. Most of you have never typed on an old style manual typewriter (the ones with the type on the end of long arms). And, it was designed in opposition to the ABC style keyboard; that jammed something awful, if you ever used a kids typewriter from back a hundred years ago (they had ABC key set up to make it easy for 5 year old kids to find the letters), you would know that. You could jam one of those up typing with two fingers.

Ever since the first electric typewriters came out there have been people tying to get the world to change away from the Qwerty keyboard (Supposedly, so named by Don Lancaster in his book "TV Typewriter" that told how to build a TV terminal to replace your paper tape Teletype terminal, before that it was just called a typewriter keyboard).  However, not many people are willing to switch after having spent two to four years learning to type at secretarial speeds on the standard keyboard. Evan a stenographic machine is only about twice as fast as an expert can type on that old fashioned Qwerty keyboard, just not enough improvement to make the effort worthwhile.

However, if you can pound along at 100+ words per minute on a 1939 Royal portable typewriter with 100% accuracy, like my mom could when I was a kid (she got the typewriter as a HS graduation present, and I learned to type on it); I will be glad to listen to your advice, but not enough to learn to type on a different keyboard layout.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Sun, 18 September 2011, 04:23:00
I think many people tend to get carried away with figures like 100 words per minute.  That's usually taken over a short period like 5 or even 10 minutes.  

I'm a court reporter who is able to transcribe at the speed of spoken word (ie 2-3 words per second),  which sounds impressive on its own, but a few years ago I took all my work for a calendar month, shoved it into one document, stripped all formatting and extra stuff out until I had one huge document of plain text.  I assumed I worked a five day week, 8 hours a day (with no breaks of any kind at all) and dividing it out I came to 23 words per minute.  (http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon12.png)

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: dorkvader on Tue, 20 September 2011, 01:47:14
Do you think that is because of pauses between sentences, etc? When I first learned QWERTY in highschool, I only maxed out at 18 keystrokes/minute, myself.

Still, that's a lot of keystrokes. No wonder you use a maltron :P
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Tue, 20 September 2011, 23:41:39
In real life there is lots of "dead" time, such as changing tapes, having coffee breaks, lunch, proofreading and correcting, printing, answering telephones etc, so "typing speed" is really a pretty meaningless figure.  I usually say I can transcribe at a ratio of 1:4 ie one hour of (reasonable) audio can be transcribed in 4 hours, including 100% sound checking, replaying the entire audio and checking the transcript.  When I was employed by a contractor to our state Courts we were not permitted to have more than 2 errors per page of roughly 355 words.  So 99.9995% accuracy.  If I'd handed over a job to a client which was 98% accurate, I'd have been sacked.  The clients did random spot check of transcripts and too many errors resulted initially in financial penalties then possible loss of the contract, so it was not something taken lightly, and every job had to be 100% sound checked before being released.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Deverica Wolf on Wed, 21 September 2011, 04:20:42
Quote from: Keymonger;296934
Well, Colemak is better than Dvorak, but it's not without flaws unfortunately. The biggest offender must be the placement of the H key... it's left on the same spot as on Qwerty, but as noted by the dude who designed Workman, that makes typing 'the', which you will type a LOT, a bit uneasy. You type t, reach for h with your right index finger, then hit e with your middle finger. But it's not easy to reach h without slightly moving the middle finger, which slows down the typing of 'the', and it's a pretty annoying movement to boot.

If this isn't a problem for you, then it's really Colemak all the way. But as for me, it's not pleasant at all. Out of Dvorak and Colemak, both are more cumbersome for my hands than the layout I designed, which I happily use.
Lastly, I wanna point out... this layout business isn't as complicated as that dumb article is making it out to be. Finding out if Dvorak or Colemak or whatever is better for you can be found out before learning it. Typing is just a matter of using your fingers to input stuff.

I actually LOVE typing "The" with Colemak. Easy and fun for me! The The The! :playball:

STDHNEI
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: dorkvader on Sat, 24 September 2011, 22:42:50
Dvorak's 'the' is pretty fun for me, too.
aoeuidhtns

the the the. I find I rather like it, It's so commonly typed by me, I do believe they were the first letters that I could type without looking. (even before 'a' and 'm' which are shared with QWERTY.)
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Playtrumpet on Sun, 25 September 2011, 10:37:57
I think later I might go research the exact freqencies of these most common letter pairings. For example, the 'th' digraph isn't just the most common; it is by FAR the most common. Other pairings don't even come close  to its significance. If a keyboard could focus on ordering the pairings and groupings and base their typing ease (subjective still, yes) directly by these frequencies.. Meh, probably too complicated.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Sun, 25 September 2011, 11:51:41
To my mind a 10-20% improvement does not make it worth relearning skills developed on a manual typewriter long ago. A 100% improvement might. Unfortunately, none of those alternative keyboards provide enough improvement to make it sensible to switch. In most cases, I think, the ones who are insisting that it is worthwhile are kids who are more interested in different, than in efficiency.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: N8N on Sun, 25 September 2011, 12:13:29
hah, that's some funny s**t right there...  cool looking keyboard though.

I say this of course as someone who has a similar keyboard and actually did a refresher typing course before actually receiving it to avoid just that effect.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Playtrumpet on Sun, 25 September 2011, 12:27:28
You showed that keyboard who's BOAS.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Sun, 25 September 2011, 19:29:10
Quote from: Playtrumpet;421151
I think later I might go research the exact freqencies of these most common letter pairings. For example, the 'th' digraph isn't just the most common; it is by FAR the most common. Other pairings don't even come close  to its significance. If a keyboard could focus on ordering the pairings and groupings and base their typing ease (subjective still, yes) directly by these frequencies.. Meh, probably too complicated.

If you haven't already done so, you might have a read through these papers.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers.html


Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Deverica Wolf on Sun, 25 September 2011, 19:40:01
Quote from: graywolf;421170
To my mind a 10-20% improvement does not make it worth relearning skills developed on a manual typewriter long ago. A 100% improvement might. Unfortunately, none of those alternative keyboards provide enough improvement to make it sensible to switch. In most cases, I think, the ones who are insisting that it is worthwhile are kids who are more interested in different, than in efficiency.

I can see that, especially if you work with QWERTY all day, but it only took me three weeks to switch, and I'm stupid and terrible at typing. If there are improvements to my speed and comfort (and risk of Carpal Tunnel), I am reaping them now and forever. :whistle:
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Sun, 25 September 2011, 20:26:06
Quote from: graywolf;421170
To my mind a 10-20% improvement does not make it worth relearning skills developed on a manual typewriter long ago. A 100% improvement might. Unfortunately, none of those alternative keyboards provide enough improvement to make it sensible to switch. In most cases, I think, the ones who are insisting that it is worthwhile are kids who are more interested in different, than in efficiency.


I'm approaching 62 years of age.  I wouldn't say I'm a "kid". (http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon12.png)

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: keyboardlover on Sun, 25 September 2011, 21:09:08
Quote from: ripster;421174
Meanwhile in WASD engraved key land.
[video=youtube;Y28h_ok5OXY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y28h_ok5OXY&feature=player_embedded#![/video]


The really funny part is that BongDude666 (the guy who uploaded this video) is actually playing Team Fortress 2 whilst baked out of his mind in said video.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Mon, 26 September 2011, 10:47:12
Quote from: Proword;421323
I'm approaching 62 years of age.  I wouldn't say I'm a "kid".
Show Image
(http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon12.png)


Joe


Sure you are, when you were in kindergarten, I was in the 6th grade, I would not even have talked to you (GRIN).

In a way, computers have made fast accurate typing a thing of the past. In the old old days when we typed on paper, if you needed a clean copy, you had to retype the whole page instead of hitting backspace backspace h e to correct teh. Then they came out with correcting typewriters, but if you had more than a couple of corrections on the page they kind of stood out. I think most people under 30 have never seen a letter typed by a good secretary. She would never have put any of that stuff we get today in the mail, as it would have made her look incompetent.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Mon, 26 September 2011, 10:57:56
Actually, the problems we have with letter pairings like Th, ch, etc., is because they are actually single letters that English uses two letter for. We should have a key for them on the keyboard. The problem comes about because English is a composite of several languages, and the 26 letter Roman alphabet we use is simply not enough.

So there is a project for you guys, instead of tiring to redesign the keyboard, why not redesign the English alphabet. After all, the only reason we are still using it is because that is they way we have always done it.

Oh? That is why we are still using the qwerty keyboard, isn't it?
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: dorkvader on Mon, 26 September 2011, 17:42:38
just learn an invented language like lojban while you're at it.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 26 September 2011, 17:53:14
Quote from: graywolf;421523

In a way, computers have made fast accurate typing a thing of the past. In the old old days when we typed on paper, if you needed a clean copy, you had to retype the whole page instead of hitting backspace backspace h e to correct teh. Then they came out with correcting typewriters, but if you had more than a couple of corrections on the page they kind of stood out. I think most people under 30 have never seen a letter typed by a good secretary. She would never have put any of that stuff we get today in the mail, as it would have made her look incompetent.

I saw something like this recently, that this new generation is full of horrible spellers for a reason, autocorrect. They have been trained from an early age to not only use autocorrect and try not to learn how to spell but that, they have been trained to look for the squiggly red line to know if you have misspelled rather than "knowing" you've have spelled wrong.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Lanx on Mon, 26 September 2011, 17:54:41
Quote from: Proword;421304
If you haven't already done so, you might have a read through these papers.

http://www.maltron.com/keyboard-info/academic-papers.html


Joe


those papers are 10, 20, even 26 years old@!!!
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Mon, 26 September 2011, 19:48:16
Quote from: Lanx;421749
those papers are 10, 20, even 26 years old@!!!

Well, actually, Lilian Malt's paper was presented to the conference of the Printing Industry Research Association in 1977, so that's about 35 years old, but mere age doesn't invalidate the research or the conclusions.  It's merely confirmed their validity.  

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Mon, 26 September 2011, 19:55:09
Quote from: graywolf;421523
I think most people under 30 have never seen a letter typed by a good secretary. She would never have put any of that stuff we get today in the mail, as it would have made her look incompetent.


One of the good things I found when I was a legal secretary was that some of my proofreaders were being paid over $400 an hour.(http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon7.png)(http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon7.png)(http://geekhack.org/images/icons/icon7.png)

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Deverica Wolf on Wed, 28 September 2011, 05:02:40
Quote from: Lanx;421748
I saw something like this recently, that this new generation is full of horrible spellers for a reason, autocorrect. They have been trained from an early age to not only use autocorrect and try not to learn how to spell but that, they have been trained to look for the squiggly red line to know if you have misspelled rather than "knowing" you've have spelled wrong.

I do that! ...Maybe I should shut that off and learn to spell better. I think I make a bit of mistakes because of stress and discomfort but I need to fight back. It's a good idea. After I get my Blue Switch Tenkeyless.

Anyway, regarding the topic, I tried typing on QWERTY today and it felt like I was typing on an Alien keyboard. It's only been three months but it feels so strange to me now. I had used QWERTY for 12 years!
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Findecanor on Wed, 28 September 2011, 07:24:01
Quote from: Lanx;421749
those papers are 10, 20, even 26 years old@!!!

 The evolution of human hands have changed very little in that time.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 28 September 2011, 07:26:50
yea but the way we interact with the computer/keyboard is different... such as the use of a pointing device and how that factors into rsi/cts. eh maybe i'll read the most recent paper, but i hope it's not done by some old lady who used to be a secretary and now has like death arms... like that vid we saw last time.

oh wow papers are like less than a page long, and mostly go into the design of the maltron anyway, it's stuff we know really, if you're into ergonomics.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Tony on Wed, 28 September 2011, 07:30:15
100 years is just like an eye blink in revolution of mankind. Who cares, maybe in 2311 Qwerty keyboards would be antiques.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Wed, 28 September 2011, 12:46:55
Quote from: Deverica Wolf;422561
Anyway, regarding the topic, I tried typing on QWERTY today and it felt like I was typing on an Alien keyboard. It's only been three months but it feels so strange to me now. I had used QWERTY for 12 years!

Not realizing it, you make my point. Suppose you type on your alt layout only for a couple of years? Then you get a job where you have to type on a qwerty keyboard, or you don't because you had to take a typing test on a qwerty keyboard and can not pass it?

The catch 22 of the computer age, you have lots of choices, until you look for a job. Then you have one choice, whatever your boss tells you to use. We know businesses use Windows computers, we know businesses use qwerty keyboards, we know business use MS Office. So if we want to work for them, we really do not have a choice, do we?
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Wed, 28 September 2011, 12:56:00
Well, those old ladies who used to be typists can tell us something. They pounded on those typewriters 7 hours a day 5 days a week at a 100 words a minute, but did not seem to have all those hand/wrist problems we do. Computer keyboard makers give us flat low travel keys that the claim are better. The old IBM electric typewriters had keys that moved more than a half inch to active, and all the old typewriters had stepped keyboards. Maybe, new is not better.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: itlnstln on Wed, 28 September 2011, 13:35:19
Either that, or they weren't a bunch of wusses like the kids today.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: sordna on Wed, 28 September 2011, 19:27:58
Quote from: graywolf;422800
Well, those old ladies who used to be typists can tell us something. They pounded on those typewriters 7 hours a day 5 days a week at a 100 words a minute, but did not seem to have all those hand/wrist problems we do.

I suspect some of them did have problems, are you sure they didn't?

Quote
Computer keyboard makers give us flat low travel keys that the claim are better. The old IBM electric typewriters had keys that moved more than a half inch to active, and all the old typewriters had stepped keyboards. Maybe, new is not better.

I think we type FAR more than the old typists did. They only typed "work", and took many micro-breaks to load a new sheet of paper, etc. They talked to their co-workers and bosses instead of constant email!

We not only type "work", we type to communicate (we sometimes email more than do actual talking), we type to look up stuff/research, and we type for recreation when not working. Not to mention we use a mouse which they did not.

That's why I believe those of us who type heavily for work should seriously avoid computer gaming and minimize use of the computer at home as much as possible. We need a break from the constant repetitive motions.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Wed, 28 September 2011, 19:34:01
Quote from: graywolf;422795
Not realizing it, you make my point. Suppose you type on your alt layout only for a couple of years? Then you get a job where you have to type on a qwerty keyboard, or you don't because you had to take a typing test on a qwerty keyboard and can not pass it?

The catch 22 of the computer age, you have lots of choices, until you look for a job. Then you have one choice, whatever your boss tells you to use. We know businesses use Windows computers, we know businesses use qwerty keyboards, we know business use MS Office. So if we want to work for them, we really do not have a choice, do we?


Tom, the choice is not up to the employee(s), it's up to the bosses.  If they choose to be "safe" and use what everybody else uses, then there's nothing to differentiate them from their competitors, so they don't gain any competitive advantage.  As I've mentioned previously, when I started work as a "temp" secretary, I was taking my own keyboard (and eventually computer) into the offices.  In all the time I did this, the clients expressed no difficulty with this, and in some cases, I found myself being asked to come back for further assignments.  

In order to obtain employment with the agencies, I had to undertake the standard set of tests, which included typing.  Of the five agencies I applied to I was rejected by three and accepted (and one admittedly with reservations) by two.   Those two agencies were rewarded quite well for their "bravery" because of the repeat requests for my services, and I found myself being moved further up the "pecking order" at the agencies until I was almost always the first person they called.  That  meant that I was able to pick and choose my work.

Tom, perhaps you live in a society which doesn't reward (or expect) initiative and enterprise, but during my studies for my diploma in teaching, we were told that as a word-processing operator we would be excepted to make suggestions for improvement in our workplace.  

During one stretch of working for a court reporting contractor I brought several matters to the attention of my employers, suggesting that if they continued working in their current fashion (very inefficient) they would start to lose customers if somebody else with "the smarts" that they lacked came onto the playing field.  Several years later the contractor folded (after about 15 years of existence), and I picked up some of their clients.  It wasn't a case of my chasing after the clients, they came to me, complaining about the poor service they were getting, and wanting to know if I could offer anything better.  They seemed to think I did because they stayed with me until I retired.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Wed, 28 September 2011, 19:59:27
Quote from: Lanx;422596
yea but the way we interact with the computer/keyboard is different... such as the use of a pointing device and how that factors into rsi/cts. eh maybe i'll read the most recent paper, but i hope it's not done by some old lady who used to be a secretary and now has like death arms... like that vid we saw last time.

oh wow papers are like less than a page long, and mostly go into the design of the maltron anyway, it's stuff we know really, if you're into ergonomics.

Judging by the standards of spelling and grammar which I see around today, highlighted by our increased reliance on using the keyboard to communicate, I'd be reluctant to place much faith in some of today's research papers.  (If you have any concerns about the CONTENT of the papers I suggested rather than their size, why not get in touch with the author, Stephen Hobday at Maltron?  He's getting on a bit, but the last time I spoke to him his mind was still pretty sharp.)

http://www.maltron.com/general-info/maltron-history.html

And with this increased keyboard usage, I'm just wondering who SHOULDN'T be "into ergonomics".  It's something which affects everyone who uses a computer I should think.  

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Lanx on Wed, 28 September 2011, 20:25:58
betcha those old ladies wear those forearm splints that rollerskaters wear for protection, (at least i saw 2 in my life wearing these cuz of RSI and it scared me to death when i was a teenager)

besides the modern computer basically forcing everyone to type have put them out of work (along with dragon dictate) unless they've moved on from secretary to executive assistant. From what i read on unemployment secretaries are the worse off, since they're basically obsolete now, you only see them on Mad Men.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Wed, 28 September 2011, 21:18:06
Quote from: Lanx;423067


besides the modern computer basically forcing everyone to type have put them out of work (along with dragon dictate) unless they've moved on from secretary to executive assistant. From what i read on unemployment secretaries are the worse off, since they're basically obsolete now, you only see them on Mad Men.


A good secretary has ALWAYS been an "executive assistant".  It's just a fancy new title.

I've used Dragon Naturally Speaking since the late '90s, still use it today, and have achieved excellent results (230 wpm, 99.9% accuracy).  Most people who think it's a dud just don't have the skill required to use it effectively, and so probably would be at greater risk of unemployment in any case.  Like most skills, it's just a case of working hard at it to achieve.  (That was one of the suggestions I made to my employer to increase the firm's efficiency.  I showed the boss what I was doing, he nodded, walked away and I just kept on practising.)

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Playtrumpet on Wed, 28 September 2011, 21:29:37
Joe, how often do you use Dragon? I recently tried it and I do like it, though I find it likes to use up my RAM which causes other programs to slow. I know you have a very effective abbreviation system so I was just wondering if you use it that much.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Thu, 29 September 2011, 01:31:08
The Dragon is almost always on, except when I'm proofreading.  Because there's a (user) adjustable pause before speaking a command, sometimes this pause, when added to the necessary processing time,  takes longer than it would to key an abbreviation, or even type it in full, so I'll use the keyboard.  Also, the quality of the audio governs whether I use Dragon.  If it's of poor quality, and I have to play and replay to get the correct sense, the Dragon would be a hindrance.  I do what is called "shadow speaking" and repeat what I hear into the Dragon, so it only has to recognise my voice ... plus I also have to punctuate on the fly.  But poor quality audio I have to listen to more than once and sometimes speak a single word at a time.  Whilst the processing time increases with a longer utterance, it's not linear, so the processing time for a 15 second utterence is not three times longer than that of a 5 second utterance.  I've sometimes spoken for nearly a minute without stopping, and the Dragon recognised  it all with no trouble.  

However if (as the job I'm currently doing) it  is one person speaking clearly at reasonable speed, I can quite literally step on the gas, and push the replay speed up by 10 or 12% above "normal" and do it in better than real time.  Say I can transcribe 12 seconds of speech in 9-10 seconds.  

Really whether I use Dragon, keyboard abbreviations or "vanilla typing" (typing everything in full) is  a second-by-second decision making process.

Yes, the Dragon does love to eat up the RAM (I've got 8 GB) but my current version of Dragon (11.1) straight out of the box is brilliant, and hasn't slowed things down noticeably.

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Thu, 29 September 2011, 03:55:48
Quote from: Playtrumpet;423104
Joe, how often do you use Dragon? I recently tried it and I do like it, though I find it likes to use up my RAM which causes other programs to slow. I know you have a very effective abbreviation system so I was just wondering if you use it that much.

This link

http://proword-transcription.blogspot.com/


at the end will take you to my current abbreviation list.  Feel free to take any inspiration from it.  ;-)

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Thu, 29 September 2011, 14:20:15
Yes, they call secretaries executive assistants these days. Where do these nuts get the idea that changing the name of a thing somehow changes the thing. The other thing is that mid-level management do not get to have one anymore, it is too expensive. BTW, back in the 1900's almost all secretaries were male, as were a lot of other positions that the ladies took over in the twentieth century. Then, of course, since it was a job that was mostly done by women, it somehow became an insult to call someone a secretary; despite the fact that the best ones made a heck of a lot of money.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: graywolf on Thu, 29 September 2011, 14:22:48
Yes, they call secretaries executive assistants these days. Where do these nuts get the idea that changing the name of a thing somehow changes the thing. The other thing is that mid-level management do not get to have one anymore, it is too expensive. BTW, back in the 1900's almost all secretaries were male, as were a lot of other positions that the ladies took over in the twentieth century. Then, of course, since it was a job that was mostly done by women, it somehow became an insult to call someone a secretary. Despite the fact that the best ones made a heck of a lot of money.

Of interest, that little old lady sitting in the middle of the court room clacking away on her strange black steno machine is often the highest paid person in the room.
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Proword on Fri, 30 September 2011, 00:15:54
Quote from: graywolf;423539


Of interest, that little old lady sitting in the middle of the court room clacking away on her strange black steno machine is often the highest paid person in the room.


And sometimes, there's just not enough money to make the job worthwhile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJAy7k2to3c

Joe
Title: Qwerty?
Post by: Playtrumpet on Fri, 30 September 2011, 08:07:49
Mm. Of course, any court reporter is allowed to request a translator/interpreter for people who are too difficult to understand. The profession itself and the steno machine are the two things that got me into this world of keyboards in the first place. Just made me ashamed of my contentment with Qwerty.