Tell us all about the double shots!
I'm also awaiting pics :cool:
font is somewhat bearableI feel like I'm in Microsofts dream of Egypt.
Are those the ones with the Aluminum top cases?
Speaking of the new PBT backlit friendly... The first thing you will notice is the light is not spreading evenly across the surface of the legends.
It doesn't bug me at all but someone used to backlit ABS will probably see this as less attractive. After couples of years of use, the ABS will be all scratched and leaking light as opposed to the Deck's who will still be just like when they came out of the box.
(Attachment Link)
The actual photo is much less forgiving than the eye. The 8 and 9 are quite obvious to the eye.
Speaking of the new PBT backlit friendly... The first thing you will notice is the light is not spreading evenly across the surface of the legends.
It doesn't bug me at all but someone used to backlit ABS will probably see this as less attractive. After couples of years of use, the ABS will be all scratched and leaking light as opposed to the Deck's who will still be just like when they came out of the box.
(Attachment Link)
Here's another one that came out pretty good. Thanks to my patch of Godzilla skin :-)
Left - Previous Deck PBT, Right New generation found in the Hassium and Francium.
(Attachment Link)
The stem on the older one is much thicker, but the new one is reinforced.
The new Keycap itself is much thicker.
Must be a dream to have backlit friendly thick pbtIt is... Arrrrrrrrr. Who's yar daddy?
Definitely the same source as the Vortex PBT doubleshots
I'm still waiting for BucklingSpring to rename himself HassiumFrancium. (Or MXBrown)
Are the Deck's keycaps OEM profile?
How is the profile / typing height compared to other boards in your collection?
I also figured their sourced from the same place where Vortex get their PBT doubleshots, judging by that "dot" pattern seen on the underside of a cap.
Not my pic but...Show Image(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/976305_517114545022927_539900040_o.jpg)
Are the Deck's keycaps OEM profile?
How is the profile / typing height compared to other boards in your collection?
The previous gen Decks were flat. Something that was not for everyones.
The new Hassium and Francium got the EXACT same profile as the Ducky... I haven't dig in my storage to compare with others. I'd say yes to EOM.
I thought I would like clears, because I love tactile feedback and have found blues a bit light for my taste. I ordered a WASD CODE but ultimately found the clears unpleasantly "grindy," as they say (after a trial period I resold the board).
Blues are all over the freakin place. I just got back from Fry's and messed around with some of the boards on display. I played with a QFR and XT both with Blues and out of the box the XT seemed more satisfying to type on because the switches felt slightly heavier - having albeit a bit more bite. Another conflict is I preferred the gray casing on the QFR much more than the black.
I was also disappointed that the XT had the exact same profile as the QFR. One of the selling features of this board was supposibly "lower profile."
I'm going to guess the XT has a much stiffer plate than the QFR.
(1) have to give some kudos to Deck here tho, the Hassium uses the highest frequency of the BL boards I have seen so far. By just eyeballing it, high (better) to low (bad) frequency in BL boards: Deck 108, Corsair K70, LT 710+, Ducky Shine 3. I can use the 108 and K70 with the lights on, but not the 710 or S3 (the flicker drives me nuts.)
Interestingly the flicker of a light source is defined within a standard EN12464-1:2002 which states that flicker causes distraction and may give rise to physiological effects such as headaches. Stroboscopic effects can lead to dangerous situations by changing the perceived motion of rotating or reciprocating machinery. Lighting systems should be designed to avoid flicker and stroboscopic effects. It is noted within the standard that this can usually be achieved for example by use of DC electrical supply for incandescent lamps, or by operating incandescent or discharge lamps at high frequencies (around 30 kHz). [..]
Of course if your LED driver uses Pulse Width Modulation technology then your ripple current is actually 100% as the current through the LED varies between 0 and full current at a specific PWM frequency. If you require high resolution current control then unfortunately a major disadvantage with PWM is that the flicker frequency drops to only a few hundred Hertz at best.
A recent flicker study by the Lighting Research Center in New York State tested how 10 humans detected and more importantly accepted flicker using both the flicker frequency and also the degree of percentage flicker with very interesting results as shown in figures 8 and 9.
In figure 8, the lower the flicker frequency enabled the subjects to detect stroboscopic effects of the light source especially if the flicker percentage is high. For example, the majority (80-100%) of the subjects would be able to see stroboscopic effects of a PWM (100% flicker) driven LED system with a PWM frequency of up to 1KHz whereas an LED light source with a flicker frequency from 1KHz and only 5% flicker would not be seen by observers. For clarity an LED light source with 5% flicker is essentially a DC light source with 5% ripple current.
However, figure 9 shows that the majority of subjects in the study would accept light sources which give rise to the stroboscopic effects irrespective of the flicker percentage after a flicker frequency of approximately 1500Hz.
Since I'm using a low light setting (just want to be able to see the legends in a dimmed room, not light the room up) the flicker rate is > 50% using PWM control. If you look at the two figures mentioned, most people see stroboscopic effects at that rate for frequencies > 1kHz (fig. 8 ) but also most people find these effects acceptable starting at 300Hz (fig. 9). I'm just less tolerant :P
LED monitors can be a PITA as well (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pulse_width_modulation.htm) BTW.
This whole issue is why TG3 equipped their 82 boards w/ current limiting brightness control -- having one of the current PWM implementations in a police cruiser would not not have gone over well.
Since I'm using a low light setting (just want to be able to see the legends in a dimmed room, not light the room up) the flicker rate is > 50% using PWM control. If you look at the two figures mentioned, most people see stroboscopic effects at that rate for frequencies > 1kHz (fig. 8 ) but also most people find these effects acceptable starting at 300Hz (fig. 9). I'm just less tolerant :P
LED monitors can be a PITA as well (http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/articles/pulse_width_modulation.htm) BTW.
This whole issue is why TG3 equipped their 82 boards w/ current limiting brightness control -- having one of the current PWM implementations in a police cruiser would not not have gone over well.
i have to agree the CTRL, ALT and WIN spelled out in huge letters is ugly. the number keys also look bad with the huge nonalphanumeric characters next to it. is this a result of PBT keycaps that can be backlit? if not the designer should be fired and i'm surprised a company would come out with a design like this in 2014 maybe if it was 1994. i'm not a fan of the font but i could look past it but the modifier and number keys are really bad.
why do all the keyboards use PWM if its worse? is it because of the cost or does it allow them to do the dumb demo led modes so people can make youtube videos of flashing leds?
From their thread, apparently making PBT-enabled backlit molds are quite expensive, and they really couldn't care less about the consumer for the most part to change the godawful font for a price, instead catering to the few who don't care, who also probably don't care that it's PBT. I'd never buy from them for that sole reason.
From their thread, apparently making PBT-enabled backlit molds are quite expensive, and they really couldn't care less about the consumer for the most part to change the godawful font for a price, instead catering to the few who don't care, who also probably don't care that it's PBT. I'd never buy from them for that sole reason.
that's a shame because the keyboard had so much potential. not sure why its so hard for these companies to come out with a keyboard with PBT keycaps with a nice standard font/layout and good backlighting that only dims and turns off. seems pretty simple and i bet they would sell a bunch.
From their thread, apparently making PBT-enabled backlit molds are quite expensive, and they really couldn't care less about the consumer for the most part to change the godawful font for a price, instead catering to the few who don't care, who also probably don't care that it's PBT. I'd never buy from them for that sole reason.
that's a shame because the keyboard had so much potential. not sure why its so hard for these companies to come out with a keyboard with PBT keycaps with a nice standard font/layout and good backlighting that only dims and turns off. seems pretty simple and i bet they would sell a bunch.
Probably mostly to GH users, though. I imagine that plenty of people would still buy their keyboards if they were ABS, so I wonder why they drive away the people they would attract by having PBT backlit keycaps by having their unsightly choice in font.
ducky seems to be selling a ton of shines and they are about as plain as it gets. sure they have some demo led modes but who uses those modes after the first 5 minutes? basically a shine with pbt keycaps and non pwm flickering led's. anyone who does enough research to know what a ducky shine is and willing to spend $140+ on a keyboard would probably also understand those benefits.
These look like such great keyboards, except for the fact that I cannot possibly buy a board with such fantastically hideous legends. What on earth were they thinking?!? :mad:
Why is there nobody out there making sensible PBT keycaps? A well-designed font, sized and placed aesthetically and ergonomically, with clear symbols.
(And c'mon, would it really be so hard to make the three extra molds to make Mac keycap replacement sets? If they can do Tux, they can do Mac.)
ducky seems to be selling a ton of shines and they are about as plain as it gets. sure they have some demo led modes but who uses those modes after the first 5 minutes? basically a shine with pbt keycaps and non pwm flickering led's. anyone who does enough research to know what a ducky shine is and willing to spend $140+ on a keyboard would probably also understand those benefits.
Are you sure we're talking about the same Ducky? They have pretty much the best features you can ask for; dual-layer PCB, removable cable (although not braided), a billion LED modes far superior to any currently existing, good keycaps, either thick PBT on their limited-edition series or still a fairly good ABS on others, repeat acceleration/delay, which I don't believe comes on any other keyboards, plus DIP switches. When you compare, they're honestly better than any other supplier in the choice and quality they give.
PWM flickering. LOL. I can't take people who talk about this as a problem seriously. If you can't see it with your eyes and it's only an 'optical' effect, it's nonessence.
ducky seems to be selling a ton of shines and they are about as plain as it gets. sure they have some demo led modes but who uses those modes after the first 5 minutes? basically a shine with pbt keycaps and non pwm flickering led's. anyone who does enough research to know what a ducky shine is and willing to spend $140+ on a keyboard would probably also understand those benefits.
Are you sure we're talking about the same Ducky? They have pretty much the best features you can ask for; dual-layer PCB, removable cable (although not braided), a billion LED modes far superior to any currently existing, good keycaps, either thick PBT on their limited-edition series or still a fairly good ABS on others, repeat acceleration/delay, which I don't believe comes on any other keyboards, plus DIP switches. When you compare, they're honestly better than any other supplier in the choice and quality they give.
PWM flickering. LOL. I can't take people who talk about this as a problem seriously. If you can't see it with your eyes and it's only an 'optical' effect, it's nonessence.
i never said shines weren't a good keyboard but there is plenty they could improve. the shine is about as plain and generic as it gets so you don't need some over the top "gaming" keyboard in order to sell them. the PWM frequency was enough of a problem that ducky increased the frequency in the new firmware and you see people complaining about it.
ducky seems to be selling a ton of shines and they are about as plain as it gets. sure they have some demo led modes but who uses those modes after the first 5 minutes? basically a shine with pbt keycaps and non pwm flickering led's. anyone who does enough research to know what a ducky shine is and willing to spend $140+ on a keyboard would probably also understand those benefits.
Are you sure we're talking about the same Ducky? They have pretty much the best features you can ask for; dual-layer PCB, removable cable (although not braided), a billion LED modes far superior to any currently existing, good keycaps, either thick PBT on their limited-edition series or still a fairly good ABS on others, repeat acceleration/delay, which I don't believe comes on any other keyboards, plus DIP switches. When you compare, they're honestly better than any other supplier in the choice and quality they give.
PWM flickering. LOL. I can't take people who talk about this as a problem seriously. If you can't see it with your eyes and it's only an 'optical' effect, it's nonessence.
i never said shines weren't a good keyboard but there is plenty they could improve. the shine is about as plain and generic as it gets so you don't need some over the top "gaming" keyboard in order to sell them. the PWM frequency was enough of a problem that ducky increased the frequency in the new firmware and you see people complaining about it.
As I just showed you, the Shine is one of the most innovative keyboards in the market. You're being extremely rude, would you like to cite how it's plain or generic in any way?
I think you need to take a couple steps back and calm down. Nowhere in his posts was he rude, he was simply expressing his opinion about Ducky. It sounds like you're being overly defensive about the keyboard because you own one.
the funny thing is i ordered a shine but it was out of stock so i had them cancel the order. i ended up deciding i would rather have the pro with pbt keycaps instead of backlighting. if i could have gotten both in 1 keyboard i would have been really happy.
Shines are, IMO, pretty generic. I like what Ducky is doing in general though. Thick PBT, some different things w/ switches...In general I think they're great and doing a lot of stuff. Still waiting for them to do a TKL w/ Thick PBT though..and maybe an Aluminum case all in one :).
Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
yea but the keycaps are blank and the backlighting looks horrible. looking at videos it seems to light up the entire key. i really want something that just dimly lights the letters. i could have looked past the horrible ugly yellow color and probably would have gotten one if not for those 2 things.
Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Oh I didn't realize they were thick PBT..but laser engraved? bleh....
I don't really want a Yellow keyboard either but either way...really close...Quite nice...
yea but the keycaps are blank and the backlighting looks horrible. looking at videos it seems to light up the entire key. i really want something that just dimly lights the letters. i could have looked past the horrible ugly yellow color and probably would have gotten one if not for those 2 things.
I wasn't trying to convince or argue with you; in fact, I was directing my post towards Polymer, who was actually asking about it.Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Oh I didn't realize they were thick PBT..but laser engraved? bleh....
I don't really want a Yellow keyboard either but either way...really close...Quite nice...
They're quite smooth. Personally, I prefer rougher keycaps like on the Keycool caps, but either way they're definitely quality. Somehow they managed to make it so that backlighting shines through, mostly in a single circular area over the backlight. *more prodding*
Also, the laser engraving is pretty pointless apparently, because it's white colored when the yellow backlighting is on, it's supposed to be rather difficult to read.
I'm definitely not trying to convince you. ;)
yea but the keycaps are blank and the backlighting looks horrible. looking at videos it seems to light up the entire key. i really want something that just dimly lights the letters. i could have looked past the horrible ugly yellow color and probably would have gotten one if not for those 2 things.
I wasn't trying to convince or argue with you; in fact, I was directing my post towards Polymer, who was actually asking about it.Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Oh I didn't realize they were thick PBT..but laser engraved? bleh....
I don't really want a Yellow keyboard either but either way...really close...Quite nice...
They're quite smooth. Personally, I prefer rougher keycaps like on the Keycool caps, but either way they're definitely quality. Somehow they managed to make it so that backlighting shines through, mostly in a single circular area over the backlight. *more prodding*
Also, the laser engraving is pretty pointless apparently, because it's white colored when the yellow backlighting is on, it's supposed to be rather difficult to read.
I'm definitely not trying to convince you. ;)
but don't smooth caps allow for faster typing?? aerodynamics and rebound and stuff?
i mean why do people shave off all their body hair to be faster swimmers?
yea but the keycaps are blank and the backlighting looks horrible. looking at videos it seems to light up the entire key. i really want something that just dimly lights the letters. i could have looked past the horrible ugly yellow color and probably would have gotten one if not for those 2 things.
I wasn't trying to convince or argue with you; in fact, I was directing my post towards Polymer, who was actually asking about it.Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Oh I didn't realize they were thick PBT..but laser engraved? bleh....
I don't really want a Yellow keyboard either but either way...really close...Quite nice...
They're quite smooth. Personally, I prefer rougher keycaps like on the Keycool caps, but either way they're definitely quality. Somehow they managed to make it so that backlighting shines through, mostly in a single circular area over the backlight. *more prodding*
Also, the laser engraving is pretty pointless apparently, because it's white colored when the yellow backlighting is on, it's supposed to be rather difficult to read.
I'm definitely not trying to convince you. ;)
but don't smooth caps allow for faster typing?? aerodynamics and rebound and stuff?
i mean why do people shave off all their body hair to be faster swimmers?
Rebound and smoothness are unrelated, the former is completely the switch. Friction might be a factor, but since you type much faster than I do, I'm sure you'd know better.
yea but the keycaps are blank and the backlighting looks horrible. looking at videos it seems to light up the entire key. i really want something that just dimly lights the letters. i could have looked past the horrible ugly yellow color and probably would have gotten one if not for those 2 things.
I wasn't trying to convince or argue with you; in fact, I was directing my post towards Polymer, who was actually asking about it.Heh, their Yellow edition does have thick PBT, don't you know?
Oh I didn't realize they were thick PBT..but laser engraved? bleh....
I don't really want a Yellow keyboard either but either way...really close...Quite nice...
They're quite smooth. Personally, I prefer rougher keycaps like on the Keycool caps, but either way they're definitely quality. Somehow they managed to make it so that backlighting shines through, mostly in a single circular area over the backlight. *more prodding*
Also, the laser engraving is pretty pointless apparently, because it's white colored when the yellow backlighting is on, it's supposed to be rather difficult to read.
I'm definitely not trying to convince you. ;)
but don't smooth caps allow for faster typing?? aerodynamics and rebound and stuff?
i mean why do people shave off all their body hair to be faster swimmers?
Rebound and smoothness are unrelated, the former is completely the switch. Friction might be a factor, but since you type much faster than I do, I'm sure you'd know better.
Yes but I can't give away all my secrets.
These look like such great keyboards, except for the fact that I cannot possibly buy a board with such fantastically hideous legends. What on earth were they thinking?!? :mad:
Why is there nobody out there making sensible PBT keycaps? A well-designed font, sized and placed aesthetically and ergonomically, with clear symbols.
(And c'mon, would it really be so hard to make the three extra molds to make Mac keycap replacement sets? If they can do Tux, they can do Mac.)
They do, they're just rather expensive usually. Ducky makes nice PBT caps with a professional sans-serif font as well as engraved ones on the Yellow Shine 3 (the caps are quite good, I have the blank ones, though). IMSTO also makes good ones, they're just prohibitively expensive to most ($70-90 in different colors), and Vortex has a rather polarizing font, but they are double shot. I like them personally, but they are quite odd. They just made a new font which seems much more agreeable to members, though.
These look like such great keyboards, except for the fact that I cannot possibly buy a board with such fantastically hideous legends. What on earth were they thinking?!? :mad:
Why is there nobody out there making sensible PBT keycaps? A well-designed font, sized and placed aesthetically and ergonomically, with clear symbols.
(And c'mon, would it really be so hard to make the three extra molds to make Mac keycap replacement sets? If they can do Tux, they can do Mac.)
They do, they're just rather expensive usually. Ducky makes nice PBT caps with a professional sans-serif font as well as engraved ones on the Yellow Shine 3 (the caps are quite good, I have the blank ones, though). IMSTO also makes good ones, they're just prohibitively expensive to most ($70-90 in different colors), and Vortex has a rather polarizing font, but they are double shot. I like them personally, but they are quite odd. They just made a new font which seems much more agreeable to members, though.
Do you have a link to the new Vortex font? I can't seem to find it.
As far as I know, nobody makes something that meets all of my (admittedly very high) standards.:
- PBT
- double shot
- ideally backlit legends (à la Max Keyboards or Hassium/Francium)
- an attractive and ergonomic font (Max is grudgingly acceptable, Vortex and Deck use key legends that make me vomit into my mouth)
- flat Windows keys -- I detest the glossy dimple
- Mac keycap options (we're talking three essential key molds here. More if you include F13-15.) For non-doubleshot keys, it is baffling to me why this isn't widely available, given the small effort.
- it would be magical if someone made a truly Mac-optimized set that included all 4 characters per key (no modifier, shift, option, and option-shift), as Matias does on its Mac keyboards.
- for keyboards, a Mac-friendly layout -- specifically, the modifier keys to the right of the space bar. Many (like Max) put an Fn key in a key location :(
So my take on the backlit PBT candidates:
- I was really close to buying a yellow Ducky, but I am not a good enough typist to have blank (or nearly-blank, as on engraved) keys. :(
- The Max Blackbird puts the Fn key one away from the spacebar on the right, where the Mac's Option key belongs. (Option is a very useful key on the Mac.) Dunno if that can be remapped.
- The Francium would be good, if not for that unspeakably hideous font.
I'm assuming my best shot, realistically, is to give up backlighting and get blank white thick PBT caps and have them custom laser-etched somewhere.
Is this post so long and off-topic that I should make a separate thread?
Thanks for the link. That new font looks great!
As for Mac users not using mechanical: I think that's not true. Granted, there aren't as many Mac gamers (though that's changed a lot since the switch to Intel, with the ability to dual-boot). But I know lots of Mac users who use mechanical keyboards. We just have to live with keycaps that don't match the OS, which is kinda ugly, you know? (Rarely, there are actual compatibility problems, mostly with funky USB implementations of NKRO.) Statistically speaking, Mac users spend a lot more money on computer peripherals and accessories than Windows users, so you'd think there'd be a market for it.
Probably the keyboard manufacturers have no idea how many of their keyboards are used on Macs, because they probably never investigate.
I'm not interested in a HHKB, as I don't want such a compact layout. There are mechanical keyboards out there with Mac keys (Deck, Matias, Unicomp), they just each have some other limitation.
Again, especially for pad-printed or dye-sub keycaps, where an extra key design costs very little to produce, or laser-etched, where the marginal cost is essentially zero, I don't see why companies don't offer sets of replacement keycaps for Mac. I'd love it if Filco sold a $10 keycap set for Mac to replace the handful of keys on my Majestouch.
As for "the standards you asked for are too much to expect from any manufacturer because they're rather unnecessary for most people" -- other than the Mac question, I don't think it's asking too much, and I don't think I'm alone in wanting those features combined in one keyboard. Certainly given how often others seem to ask for the same thing...
Excuse me?!? That reply is totally uncalled for. Who got your panties in a twist?!?
Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
Since when did you start linking anime cat emoticons? :P
I think you need a word with tp.
I think you need a word with tp.
Is there a technical name for them?
I think you need a word with tp.
Is there a technical name for them?
Since when is wanting an ideal product a crime? This forum is the last place I'd expect hostility toward someone seeking something better than what's on the market...Excuse me?!? That reply is totally uncalled for. Who got your panties in a twist?!?
It's fine if you can't handle the truth.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
The world can sometimes can be a hostile place with the hostility fired at 150+wpm.Since when is wanting an ideal product a crime? This forum is the last place I'd expect hostility toward someone seeking something better than what's on the market...Excuse me?!? That reply is totally uncalled for. Who got your panties in a twist?!?
It's fine if you can't handle the truth.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
Since when is wanting an ideal product a crime? This forum is the last place I'd expect hostility toward someone seeking something better than what's on the market...Excuse me?!? That reply is totally uncalled for. Who got your panties in a twist?!?
It's fine if you can't handle the truth.Show Image(http://www.cute-factor.com/images/smilies/onion/f529a952.gif)
The world can sometimes can be a hostile place with the hostility fired at 150+wpm.
I never said it was a crime, I simply told you that it's a naive fantasy.
I never said it was a crime, I simply told you that it's a naive fantasy.
Given how close some of the products on the market come to what I want, I think it's neither fantasy nor naïve. There's really no need for you to be condescending.
I never said it was a crime, I simply told you that it's a naive fantasy.
Given how close some of the products on the market come to what I want, I think it's neither fantasy nor naïve. There's really no need for you to be condescending.
I'm wasting my own time trying to tell you why it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Best of luck to you in your misguided journey.
I never said it was a crime, I simply told you that it's a naive fantasy.
Given how close some of the products on the market come to what I want, I think it's neither fantasy nor naïve. There's really no need for you to be condescending.
I'm wasting my own time trying to tell you why it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Best of luck to you in your misguided journey.
So much angst. Do you have to make an effort or does it naturally spill out?
I never said it was a crime, I simply told you that it's a naive fantasy.
Given how close some of the products on the market come to what I want, I think it's neither fantasy nor naïve. There's really no need for you to be condescending.
I'm wasting my own time trying to tell you why it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Best of luck to you in your misguided journey.
So much angst. Do you have to make an effort or does it naturally spill out?
I don't know, Spamray. So little originality or meaningful contribution, would you ever try to come up with something yourself?
lol how odd
lol how odd
Right... recent posts make Deck's fonts look pretty.
lol how odd
Right... recent posts make Deck's fonts look pretty.
this post does make it look pretty!
http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=53503.0