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geekhack Community => Keyboards => Topic started by: medvednic on Sat, 30 November 2013, 13:56:04
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Hello,
I've been lurking in the forums since the day that I've decided to purchase a mechanical keyboard.
I'll try to make it as short as I can:
PC usage: mostly typing (SE student), casual gaming.
blues are not considered due to their sound.
I have the cherry sample kit from WASD, at first I really considered the clear switches because of their better tactile feedback than the browns (I also read that people are getting used to browns and they become almost linear and buttoming out starts to take place).
but it would be very uncomfortable to game using clears, and I don't have the money to buy separate clear and red boards for my needs, hence I think that browns are better for me... the only thing is that I'm afraid of is that maybe I'm applying to much pressure during typing and may start to buttom out with browns.
what it your suggestion to me, browns or clears?
has anyone that bought browns started to feel that they are to light for them?
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mod a clear board's wasd keys with reds or browns?
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Browns don't "become linear". People who are heavy typists tend to slam down on MX Browns, thus not being able to feel the tactility.
My advice: Get MX Browns. They're widely available and don't become acoustically annoying like MX Blues. MX Clears may be a little heavy unless you plan to replace the springs with lighter ones. MX Browns are great for typing AND gaming. For typing, they have the satisfying tactility. For gaming, they're light enough to spam APM without become fatigued.
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The easier way to make the decision is to realize that unless you want a Deck keyboard or to build/mod your own, I don't think anyone actually has an MX Clear keyboards in stock for the next 9 months.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want an MX Clear board haha)
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I almost never fatigue while typing on my clears as the heavy spring cushions my key presses, making it hard for me to bottom out. I game on it as well with no problems. I have little skinny fingers for what it's worth. I had browns for a while and they were fine, but they were not tactile enough for me (I also love blue switches).
I have a Leopold FC660M with clears I might let go soon. I have used the board a lot for gaming and typing and it's been great.
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Browns don't "become linear". People who are heavy typists tend to slam down on MX Browns, thus not being able to feel the tactility.
My advice: Get MX Browns. They're widely available and don't become acoustically annoying like MX Blues. MX Clears may be a little heavy unless you plan to replace the springs with lighter ones. MX Browns are great for typing AND gaming. For typing, they have the satisfying tactility. For gaming, they're light enough to spam APM without become fatigued.
I agree with this.
I slam my keys like an ogre :<
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The easier way to make the decision is to realize that unless you want a Deck keyboard or to build/mod your own, I don't think anyone actually has an MX Clear keyboards in stock for the next 9 months.
(Please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want an MX Clear board haha)
There are the Leopolds FC660M that Qtan is offering.
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i like the clears, blues, bs when doing heavy typing, but like something a little lighter like browns, reds when doing other stuff
i won't even get into alps, space invaders, futaba's smk's, etc.
i'm just weird
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In all honesty you should try to buy some Clear switches and mod a keyboard to ergo clears. Stock clears are really too stiff to do a lot of typing or gaming on. Their actuation point peaks out at 100g, which is REALLY heavy and will fatigue your fingers really quickly. Browns are nice, but the increased tactility of clears feels really nice as long as the spring isn't too heavy.
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No clears actuation point is 60-65 then it starts ramping up in force to 100 as you approach bottoming out. If you can manage to teach yourself to stop pressing after actuation and release clears really are not any more fatiguing than blacks. If you find them still too fatiguing, you can always swap springs to lighter with clears. You can't make the browns more tactile though.
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Reds and browns have the same springs - if you think you'll bottom out with reds then you'll also bottom out with browns.
I like blacks (and more recently greens) for typing and gaming.
For typing I like a bit of resistance and the clicky feedback. For gaming I like keys that I can't accidentally press while resting my fingers on them.
Plus I also have reasonably strong fingers.
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Reds and browns have the same springs - if you think you'll bottom out with reds then you'll also bottom out with browns.
I like blacks (and more recently greens) for typing and gaming.
For typing I like a bit of resistance and the clicky feedback. For gaming I like keys that I can't accidentally press while resting my fingers on them.
Plus I also have reasonably strong fingers.
This! The reason I use blues (besides that I don't mind the sound) is that I bottom out way too much with browns, can't get used to their lightness(?). Sadly never tried ergo clears but I think I would like them a lot. I don't like linear switches but can see myself gaming with blacks, but the reds... :confused:
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Stock clear is like, really stiff. Ive been there and back, with a pit stop at ergo clears. I would stick with brown for gaming/typing; just a more balanced switch imo.
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I've typed on clears and browns, and I definitely prefer clears for typing and gaming. The tactility is considerably better than browns. I only wish they were heavier!
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I started off on browns and found the bump on them quite lacking. Since I heard clears were like browns but stiffer and with a more distinct bump, I thought I'd give it a go. Now after trying clears, I'm stuck in between because I really do like the bump, but the stiffness is too fatiguing, especially in FPS. The CTRL & space bar just are too stiff for me to feel like I have "control" in the game.
Though I'd have to say for typing, clears blow browns out of the water for me. But since I mainly game on my computer, I'm leaning towards going back to browns.
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How about Matias quiet switches? They feel a lot like clears to me but a little lighter.
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As people get more used to Browns, they don't hit it harder, they usually type more lightly. Browns would be best for lots of gaming and typing.
The less tactile for gaming, the better, while more is better for typing.
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Browns are very good all-round switches.
Stock Clears are quite stiff and I find them tiring.
I love ErgoClears (Clears with 62g springs from Originative). It's a lot of work to mod a whole board, but they feel great.
I would go for Browns, since they are easier to find and will do everything well. If you later decide they don't have enough tactile feedback or are too soft, then get something different for your next board.
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My solution: get browns, then get black springs and mod....
Since you like clear's heaviness and you feel browns are too light, modding the switches just for you might be the best idea for your typing experience.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
Probably the same reason they think that Blues aren't good, because there's a lot of tactility, and that makes it harder to double tap. I wouldn't use my Blue on an FPS, but it's pretty good on League.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
Probably the same reason they think that Blues aren't good, because there's a lot of tactility, and that makes it harder to double tap. I wouldn't use my Blue on an FPS, but it's pretty good on League.
I find blues just fine even for RTS which requires a lot of double tapping.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
Probably the same reason they think that Blues aren't good, because there's a lot of tactility, and that makes it harder to double tap. I wouldn't use my Blue on an FPS, but it's pretty good on League.
I find blues just fine even for RTS which requires a lot of double tapping.
Most people don't. One exception doesn't really matter.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
Probably the same reason they think that Blues aren't good, because there's a lot of tactility, and that makes it harder to double tap. I wouldn't use my Blue on an FPS, but it's pretty good on League.
I find blues just fine even for RTS which requires a lot of double tapping.
Most people don't. One exception doesn't really matter.
I know many pro gamers and streamers that use blues for RTS so its not ones exception.
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I would go with browns for a lot of typing and gaming. I love Clears, but for a lot of the above, I think Browns are better. I prefer linear switches for key-mashing during gaming, and typing is better with a little tactility. So Browns are the middle-of-the-road switch for that purpose. Clears feel awkward to me when doing fast repeated key pressing. Too much of a bump. Otherwise I love 62g linear switches for gaming (and really they are great for typing too if you add some o-rings for softer bottoming out to alleviate some stress on fingers). Those don't come standard, however, you'd have to mod linear switches to swap springs--something between Red and Black.
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Why do people have problems gaming on clears? I find them perfectly fine for it. Curious as to why other people think they might be a bad choice.
Probably the same reason they think that Blues aren't good, because there's a lot of tactility, and that makes it harder to double tap. I wouldn't use my Blue on an FPS, but it's pretty good on League.
I find blues just fine even for RTS which requires a lot of double tapping.
Most people don't. One exception doesn't really matter.
I know many pro gamers and streamers that use blues for RTS so its not ones exception.
I'm pretty sure it is, as from an earlier discussion, apparently only a single professional SCII gamer uses blues. I don't think you know many streamers or pro gamers, forgive me. Let's not thread crap further.
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It matters what kind of "gaming" you would do more. If you're going to be alternating keys and need precision, like for Starcraft, sure, Blues will give you a good feeling of a switch being actuated. If you're going to be mashing a single key repeatedly, like for an MMO, then you won't find Blues or Clears comfortable for that. You'd want linear switches or maybe Browns instead.
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Get the browns. They are better for gaming. It's lighter than the clears. Even if you mostly typing the browns are very good. When gaming they are still quick compared to reds. When spamming a key they feel like they have resistance but no bump. It's not really a bump anyway. It's more like a soft grain of rice. It feels nice though.
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I'm just going to go ahead and say it, in my opinion browns are horrendous :( and when typing at high speeds it just feels gross
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I'm just going to go ahead and say it, in my opinion browns are horrendous :( and when typing at high speeds it just feels gross
I really enjoyed typing on Browns and had no finger fatigue issues. My WPM is around 90--not sure what you mean by high speeds. If I had to type all day on Clears, I think I would get tired after a couple hours.
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How hard would it be to type on a board where 10 keys are linear but the rest are tactile?
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As long as they have a ~same actuation force and such, it's not much of a difference. I've done half a board with Blacks and half a board with Clears and some ergo-Clears. It's a little funky, but I could still type on it fine. I mean it's not like you suddenly forget where the switches are located. Just feels inconsistent. With that said, I wouldn't mix clicky with non-clicky. That'd just be bad...
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How hard would it be to type on a board where 10 keys are linear but the rest are tactile?
depends on how sensitive you are
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I'm just going to go ahead and say it, in my opinion browns are horrendous :( and when typing at high speeds it just feels gross
I really like it though. I'm still hovering around 40-50WPM. And thwas on reds too. But that's the thing, I really enjoy typing on browns.
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Between lots of typing on clears vs browns for me, I'd say that with browns, the experience is more based on the thumping of the keys onto the board (don't remember who said it, but they explained it like was typing on bamboo... totally agree). Clears on the other hand, given that they're more difficult to bottom out with, have a more 'continuous' typing feel.
With gaming on the had, I definitely enjoy the clears. With browns, I have to make more of an effort to release each key, whilst with the clears, the release is a lot more effortless.
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I have a clears board on which I recently changed the wasd cluster to some linear stems. Best of both worlds imo. I don't notice the difference between the linear cluster and the rest of the keys when typing because I got used to not pressing past the activation point a while back and in games it just feels the same as a linear board.
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Conclusion from this thread, as has been with many other threads on the same topic of switch preference: there will not be a definitive answer. It's subjective, and there are many opposing opinions. Only you will be able to decide for yourself what you like best for each purpose.
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Conclusion from this thread, as has been with many other threads on the same topic of switch preference: there will not be a definitive answer. It's subjective, and there are many opposing opinions. Only you will be able to decide for yourself what you like best for each purpose.
I would bet it is subjective because we are not formally taught typists and as such we have random typing habits. For instance, I have never seen anybody using a keyboard shelf, something that would be a requirement for traditional typing.
We could start to recommend switches according to one's typing habits. It seems to me that people whose typing approximates traditional techniques prefer heavy switches, whilst people who ignore such techniques prefer light switches.
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Conclusion from this thread, as has been with many other threads on the same topic of switch preference: there will not be a definitive answer. It's subjective, and there are many opposing opinions. Only you will be able to decide for yourself what you like best for each purpose.
I would bet it is subjective because we are not formally taught typists and as such we have random typing habits. For instance, I have never seen anybody using a keyboard shelf, something that would be a requirement for traditional typing.
We could start to recommend switches according to one's typing habits. It seems to me that people whose typing approximates traditional techniques prefer heavy switches, whilst people who ignore such techniques prefer light switches.
Very interesting observations. I am interested to know from those who learned proper typing techniques in the days of the manual typewriter, how have they adapted if any to mechanical keyboards and whether they feel that they are better typists for having learned on manual typewriters.
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I would go with clears