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geekhack Community => Off Topic => Topic started by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:18:08

Title: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:18:08
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:27:22
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??

+1

i really hate it when kids who get free lunches CUT IN THE ****ING LINE

you got that food for free, go ****ing wait in the back of the line like everyone else
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:28:42
Nothing is free. Not even breathing.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Wildcard on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:29:09
Nonsense, I get free lunches all the time. Mainly now, I just get free cookies and juice at the blood bank. Because I'm so poor :(
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hcry4 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:29:48
It's okay if all the kids had to work for their food. Can't be giving rich kids a free pass.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:29:58
its going to get backlash cuz for the most part the people who get free lunches are lazy and don't work for their food.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:30:28
let the kids who get free lunch pick up trash. that's only fair
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:35:12
let the kids who get free lunch pick up trash. that's only fair

you know you can edit your posts right?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:36:41
let the kids who get free lunch pick up trash. that's only fair

you know you can edit your posts right?

He forgot to cancel his last post before making another...
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: C5Allroad on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:41:06
+1 on this. People always cut in line and get free food. They all where $400 shoes and $100 hats. And forgot about g-shock for 'swag' I use my watch for keeping time lol. All those watches are not synced with the time and are 4 hours off average. I pay for my lunch, $20 a week. Get cookies and whatever they serve. MAKE EM WORK FOR FOOD!
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:42:31
It's okay if all the kids had to work for their food. Can't be giving rich kids a free pass.
Giving the rich kids a free pass by making them pay. Uhm...
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hcry4 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:45:11
It's okay if all the kids had to work for their food. Can't be giving rich kids a free pass.
Giving the rich kids a free pass by making them pay. Uhm...

No, they would have to work, too. Can't buy their way out.

Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Thu, 19 December 2013, 11:59:43
It's okay if all the kids had to work for their food. Can't be giving rich kids a free pass.
Giving the rich kids a free pass by making them pay. Uhm...

No, they would have to work, too. Can't buy their way out.
Yeah, I know, but I thought that paying being considered a free pass is silly logic. I'd sort of consider working a free pass.

You grab a mop and wipe the floors for a minute (Well, depends on cafeteria size), and get food for free. It's a win-win. You get physical exercise, and free food afterwards.
Paying is a lose-lose. You lose money and get lazy. Now I'm not the one to speak on the topic of laziness, but you get my point.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Jack on Thu, 19 December 2013, 12:11:59
Are you ****ing kidding me? We're going to humiliate these kids because through no fault of their own they can't afford the normal price for a school lunch? And what in the hell does cutting in line have to do with anything? I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea. This is surely going to create a massive class division in the school. As it is, it's a fairly subtle thing for a student to get a free or reduced price lunch and it need not be a prominent indicator of status. But if we have a certain group of kids being made to perform labor at the school for their meals, this will create a clear and simple way for the others to set them apart, no doubt as some kind of subordinate class.

What makes this genius think there's some kind of myth of a free lunch? Does he think these kids don't go home and know about what difficulty there is in keeping the family fed, if they're at the poverty line? Does he think they don't know they're getting a free lunch precisely because it's sometimes difficult to be able to afford one and they're on the wrong side of that line? I got free lunches in school for a time, and I didn't go around thinking **** was going to fall into my lap all my life. I don't know what got into this guy's head that makes him think he needs to teach anyone a lesson, but he needs to put the god damn Heinlein down and go do something useful.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 12:22:55
Seems pretty goofy to me.  The kids who don't need a free lunch aren't exactly paying for it out of their own pockets - their parents are paying.  So just because some student's parents can't pay, it makes sense to make the kids earn the lunch? 

I agree with the idea of working to get a "free" lunch in general, but in this case it doesn't even things out like it's meant to, given that the other kids aren't paying for their lunches either.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: jdcarpe on Thu, 19 December 2013, 12:31:49
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 12:48:11
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:08:45
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Hungry games?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:10:38
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Hungry games?

[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Computer-Lab in Basement on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:12:04
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Hungry games?

(Attachment Link)


(http://i.imgur.com/RnD9h.gif)
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:22:19
No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Hungry games?

(Attachment Link)


No, what they should do is this:

All children receive the free lunch, but all have to work.

Once a year, each classroom has to send two students, a male and a female, as tributes. These tributes would compete in some sort of competition, preferably to the death.

Wait a minute....
Hungry games?

(Attachment Link)


Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/RnD9h.gif)


Sorry if I'm being oblivious to the actual reference or just stating the obvious, I haven't watched it or any movies (or read books) like it, so I assumed that's what it is.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: IvanIvanovich on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:29:08
I am almost surprised at this point that these out of touch politicians haven't proposed bringing back serfdom. Sorry to tell you Timmy, you have racked up lunch debt this year and are now property of the school as an indentured servant.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:43:33
Dependence on entitlement programs is a real problem.  Not sure if this would help though.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:43:51
Pacifist I thought you were just annoying at first. Now I see you're just an entitled dumb ****.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:47:46
Pacifist I thought you were just annoying at first. Now I see your just entitled dumb ****.

I think this is more PM material, considering it isn't really on topic.

I think hashbaz is right. Having people rely on getting stuff for free isn't going to do them any good, and could be very bad for them later on. However, I think all this would earn the school system would be lawsuits from the people who think they're entitled to get free things.

I would like to see schools put in a discounted meal rather than a free meal, if they want to do something about it.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: kmiller8 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:50:52
considering it isn't really on topic.

/me looks at subforum name

OuO
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:54:11
The idea of giving kids a work ethic is a great idea, but I think ALL of the kids who have been given everything by mommy and daddy need to sweep some floors also.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:56:16
Pacifist I thought you were just annoying at first. Now I see your just entitled dumb ****.

I think this is more PM material, considering it isn't really on topic.

I think hashbaz is right. Having people rely on getting stuff for free isn't going to do them any good, and could be very bad for them later on. However, I think all this would earn the school system would be lawsuits from the people who think they're entitled to get free things.

I would like to see schools put in a discounted meal rather than a free meal, if they want to do something about it.
I'm talking about his stupid reasons why he backs this up.

I don't know how I feel about this tho. On one hand it's pretty ****ed up to single out a group of kids due to stuff out of their hands. On the other hand, well, I don't see how this is going to turn out well.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 13:59:58
The idea of giving kids a work ethic is a great idea, but I think ALL of the kids who have been given everything by mommy and daddy need to sweep some floors also.

I would agree with this completely, though that mostly just comes down to bad parenting and doesn't really have a ton to do with the school system
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Malphas on Thu, 19 December 2013, 14:15:04
Moronic idea. Last thing you want to be encouraging in school in segregation of different social strata, stigmatising one group, causing resentment of another, and as someone already said all the kids are essentially getting "free" lunches, the difference is who is paying for it - their parents or the state, but the end result to the individual kid is the same. The pupils are already receiving "free" education anyway, so how is throwing a lunch in having a huge impact on that? Speaking of education, wouldn't kids time at school be better spent learning and studying rather than sweeping floors and wiping tables?

However, I do think entitling some groups to free lunches and not to others to is generally unfair. In my view, lunches should either be made freely available to all pupils, or not at all. Means testing is bull**** and leads to situations where for example you have Family A, where neither parent works, whoa are entitled to free lunches, and Family B where both parents work two full-time minimum wage jobs who aren't entitled, because they're marginally better off economically. The system should reward work and effort rather than penalising it.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 14:27:42
Moronic idea. Last thing you want to be encouraging in school in segregation of different social strata, stigmatising one group, causing resentment of another, and as someone already said all the kids are essentially getting "free" lunches, the difference is who is paying for it - their parents or the state, but the end result to the individual kid is the same. The pupils are already receiving "free" education anyway, so how is throwing a lunch in having a huge impact on that? Speaking of education, wouldn't kids time at school be better spent learning and studying rather than sweeping floors and wiping tables?

However, I do think entitling some groups to free lunches and not to others to is generally unfair. In my view, lunches should either be made freely available to all pupils, or not at all. Means testing is bull**** and leads to situations where for example you have Family A, where neither parent works, whoa are entitled to free lunches, and Family B where both parents work two full-time minimum wage jobs who aren't entitled, because they're marginally better off economically. The system should reward work and effort rather than penalising it.

You bring up a good point about the education being "free" (paid for by society).  It makes the whole idea of paying for lunch seem really petty.  I have no idea what the relative scales of costs are for the lunches vs. the teachers salaries, but it almost seems to make more sense to just make the lunch included in the tax burden.

Also, what sort of school are we all debating about here?  Is it one that requires the students to get a lunch from the school, or is it one that offers lunch and students/parents can opt to bring their own bag lunch?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: iri on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:28:14
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:31:29
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Because this isn't Russia.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:31:49
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Because some of us make 'too much' money
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: daerid on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:37:40
+1. TBH, I'd argue they should do this for all kids, regardless of income status. There's way, way, WAY too many kids growing up these days thinking they're somehow entitled to **** that they didn't work or earn. Also, actually earning something means that it's valued more.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: daerid on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:39:58
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Why should they? There's no such thing as "free". Somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. While I don't mind using taxes for social infrastructure, human nature has proven time and time again that those who receive for free will have no motivation to produce, and those who do produce and have the fruits of their labor given away to somebody who doesn't will have less and less motivation to produce until nobody is producing anything.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hcry4 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:41:45
Giving away food is like the end of the world or something. Get back to work!
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:42:10
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

War is more profitable than well fed kids
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 15:43:00
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

War is more profitable than well fed kids

WAR what is it good for....
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: agodinhost on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:01:49
Giving away food is like the end of the world or something. Get back to work!
I would love to have this way of thinking here in my country ...
Here our politicians are used to give food to our children but WE are the ones whom are paying the bills!
*ucking third world ...

I do prefer a kid that knows that he has to fight for his food than one that sits and waits to be feed.
It's a shame, IMHO.
"bread and circuses" right?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: iri on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:04:23
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?
Why should they?
on the planet where i grew up, kids were given two choices: get a free three-meal course or get a cash compensation if they didn't need a free lunch.
on your planet of the free and the brave, i guess, mopping the floor to get a free lunch makes more sense.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Malphas on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:40:09
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Why should they? There's no such thing as "free". Somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. While I don't mind using taxes for social infrastructure, human nature has proven time and time again that those who receive for free will have no motivation to produce, and those who do produce and have the fruits of their labor given away to somebody who doesn't will have less and less motivation to produce until nobody is producing anything.

Where's your proof of this exactly? Why do countries like Luxembourg and Norway have higher GDP per capita and lower unemployment rates than the United States then? Which would indicate the opposite of what you're proposing.

Really, nonsensical stuff like this is only adding to the increasing image of the US as a country in gradual decline, seen as less developed than Europe, and on the verge of becoming a laughing stock.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:41:42
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Why should they? There's no such thing as "free". Somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. While I don't mind using taxes for social infrastructure, human nature has proven time and time again that those who receive for free will have no motivation to produce, and those who do produce and have the fruits of their labor given away to somebody who doesn't will have less and less motivation to produce until nobody is producing anything.

Where's your proof of this exactly? Why do countries like Luxembourg and Norway have higher GDP per capita and lower unemployment rates than the United States then? Which would indicate the opposite of what you're proposing.

I think a big part of that is size and scaling.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:42:14
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?
Why should they?
on the planet where i grew up, kids were given two choices: get a free three-meal course or get a cash compensation if they didn't need a free lunch.
on your planet of the free and the brave, i guess, mopping the floor to get a free lunch makes more sense.

get paid to eat school lunch...that's more like it.....
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Malphas on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:43:50
Why can't all the kids get their lunch for free?

Why should they? There's no such thing as "free". Somebody, somewhere has to pay for it. While I don't mind using taxes for social infrastructure, human nature has proven time and time again that those who receive for free will have no motivation to produce, and those who do produce and have the fruits of their labor given away to somebody who doesn't will have less and less motivation to produce until nobody is producing anything.

Where's your proof of this exactly? Why do countries like Luxembourg and Norway have higher GDP per capita and lower unemployment rates than the United States then? Which would indicate the opposite of what you're proposing.

I think a big part of that is size and scaling.

Why not elaborate?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: eth0s on Thu, 19 December 2013, 16:56:44
Look, these kids in 'Murica nowadays are lazy.  Kids in China and India at that age work 12 hours a day making your Nike shoes and your Apple iPhones.  They are learning valuable skills.  How can you compare real world experience like that with going to school?   You can't.  Sure they lose a finger now and again, but that child's loss is your gain.

(http://new-standards.net/files/ns/pics/resources-re-child-labor-in-china/11.jpg)

Do you think those kids ^ in Asia have a free lunch?  Or any lunch?  They are lucky to get one meal per week.  So these kids in 'Murica are just spoiled.  We need more right thinking 'Muricans like this Rep. Jack Kingston (R-CA) guy.

(http://media.salon.com/2013/12/jack_kingston2-620x412.jpg)

He is the kind of man who will bring child-labor sweatshops back to 'Murica. 
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:11:58
Look, these kids in 'Murica nowadays are lazy.  Kids in China and India at that age work 12 hours a day making your Nike shoes and your Apple iPhones.  They are learning valuable skills.  How can you compare real world experience like that with going to school?   You can't.  Sure they lose a finger now and again, but that child's loss is your gain.

Show Image
(http://new-standards.net/files/ns/pics/resources-re-child-labor-in-china/11.jpg)


Do you think those kids ^ in Asia have a free lunch?  Or any lunch?  They are lucky to get one meal per week.  So these kids in 'Murica are just spoiled.  We need more right thinking 'Muricans like this Rep. Jack Kingston (R-CA) guy.

Show Image
(http://media.salon.com/2013/12/jack_kingston2-620x412.jpg)


He is the kind of man who will bring child-labor sweatshops back to 'Murica.

I get that this is a joke post, but when the kids in China and India learn valuable skills, when will they use them when they're just making more of the same stuff?

I, for one, support the all-or-nothing approach. Either it's all free lunch or no free lunch. I think that the latter is better, as long as the free lunch is replaced with a discounted lunch with similar items (that is, if the free lunch is a cheese sandwich and some milk, as it was when I knew of them. If it's a regular lunch, then make them pay.)
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:48:33
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - The Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

Is food right, life, liberty and happiness for all, especially kids, isn't it?
So why this guy, Jack Kingston, wants "low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals" while the other kids don't?
:confused:
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:52:38
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - The Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

Is food right, life, liberty and happiness for all, especially kids, isn't it?
So why this guy, Jack Kingston, wants "low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals" while the other kids don't?
:confused:

The other kids are paying for it.  With money.

Also, when interpreting that quote, please keep in mind the difference between positive and negative rights.  They have vastly different implications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:55:30
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." - The Declaration of Independence July 4, 1776

Is food right, life, liberty and happiness for all, especially kids, isn't it?
So why this guy, Jack Kingston, wants "low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals" while the other kids don't?
:confused:

Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)

you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.

it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 17:58:26
The other kids are paying for it.  With money.
Also, when interpreting that quote, please keep in mind the difference between positive and negative rights.  They have vastly different implications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

Thank for your explanation. However, if it is the case, I think it comes to another point, where is the money for other kids comes from? From their parents, right? So I think my point is still legit because "low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals" while the other kids don't "do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals"
Correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hashbaz on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:00:40
"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:03:29
The other kids are paying for it.  With money.
Also, when interpreting that quote, please keep in mind the difference between positive and negative rights.  They have vastly different implications.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

Thank for your explanation. However, if it is the case, I think it comes to another point, where is the money for other kids comes from? From their parents, right? So I think my point is still legit because "low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals" while the other kids don't "do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals"
Correct me if I'm wrong.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:38:27
the good thing is all the rich people don't care about going against this because it doesn't affect their kids

while the poor people without much pushing power have to work for their food which is just
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: phoenix1234 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:40:56
Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)
you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.
it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.

"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.

Thanks, I see.
 ;D

When I read the post, I understand the intention of the guy but I just thought for low-income children, their life and their family may have enough troubles so they already learn a lesson that money must be earned, they should take nothing for granted.
So when children come to school, it is supposed to be a place for them feel equal and happy with their friends and forget about their hard life.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:43:35
Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)
you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.
it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.

"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.

Thanks, I see.
 ;D

When I read the post, I understand the intention of the guy but I just thought for low-income children, their life and their family may have enough troubles so they already learn a lesson that money must be earned, they should take nothing for granted.
So when children come to school, it is supposed to be a place for them feel equal and happy with their friends and forget about their hard life.

You obviously don't go to an american high school

at my school there are these ******* kids who cut in the line then punch in their subsidized code and get their lunch. You can tell its subsidized because instead of a regular box they get a crappy box that their food goes into.

theyre so ungrateful for their free **** it pisses me off every time
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Tym on Thu, 19 December 2013, 18:44:23
When i saw the title I thought Spam had been scammed into buying a timeshare :))
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:19:15
Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)
you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.
it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.

"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.

Thanks, I see.
 ;D

When I read the post, I understand the intention of the guy but I just thought for low-income children, their life and their family may have enough troubles so they already learn a lesson that money must be earned, they should take nothing for granted.
So when children come to school, it is supposed to be a place for them feel equal and happy with their friends and forget about their hard life.

You obviously don't go to an american high school

at my school there are these ******* kids who cut in the line then punch in their subsidized code and get their lunch. You can tell its subsidized because instead of a regular box they get a crappy box that their food goes into.

theyre so ungrateful for their free **** it pisses me off every time

Ungrateful?  Are they supposed to ingratiate themselves for your enjoyment, you spoiled brat?

It's food; hell, it's probably the only guaranteed meal most on that kind of a program get a day and somehow that offends you.  Maybe instead of just assuming they're easy living on government hand outs, you take a step back and go "gee, I wonder how I get most of my necessary things provided for me with hardly a blink in its direction"?

Of all the pathetic, ill-thoughtout things you've said, that has to take the cake for the stupidest.  And the most ignorant.  And most obnoxious.  And let's throw entitled on the pile, too.

Is this actually you here?
(https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1380/21/1380210906082.jpg)
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:22:51
Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)
you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.
it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.

"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.

Thanks, I see.
 ;D

When I read the post, I understand the intention of the guy but I just thought for low-income children, their life and their family may have enough troubles so they already learn a lesson that money must be earned, they should take nothing for granted.
So when children come to school, it is supposed to be a place for them feel equal and happy with their friends and forget about their hard life.

You obviously don't go to an american high school

at my school there are these ******* kids who cut in the line then punch in their subsidized code and get their lunch. You can tell its subsidized because instead of a regular box they get a crappy box that their food goes into.

theyre so ungrateful for their free **** it pisses me off every time

Ungrateful?  Are they supposed to ingratiate themselves for your enjoyment, you spoiled brat?

It's food; hell, it's probably the only guaranteed meal most on that kind of a program get a day and somehow that offends you.  Maybe instead of just assuming they're easy living on government hand outs, you take a step back and go "gee, I wonder how I get most of my necessary things provided for me with hardly a blink in its direction"?

Of all the pathetic, ill-thoughtout things you've said, that has to take the cake for the stupidest.  And the most ignorant.  And most obnoxious.  And let's throw entitled on the pile, too.

Is this actually you here?
Show Image
(https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1380/21/1380210906082.jpg)


they don't even have the respect to go ****ing wait at the back of the line

that's what pisses me off
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:25:48
and what does being an ******* have to do with the article? being an ******* isn't exclusive to people that aren't rich you imbecile.

you +1 in your original reply, as in agreeing with it. to single out a group simply because they're poor.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:26:27
Quote
Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.)
you see that R next to Ga? Stands for republican. Some (not all) republicans believe that if you aren't rich, you aren't worthy.
it all boils down to politics, not this guy actually giving a **** about what kids learn.

"Subsidized" means that the school pays for the lunches out of its own budget, so "taxpayers" ultimately provide the money.  Parents of non-low-income students pay for their kids' meals directly.

Absolutely, the other kids parents are paying for their meals.  I touched on that in an earlier response, that this solution doesn't really make things even for the kids.  It just seems even in the eyes of the administration, because now those kids are "earning" their lunch.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending this decision.

Thanks, I see.
 ;D

When I read the post, I understand the intention of the guy but I just thought for low-income children, their life and their family may have enough troubles so they already learn a lesson that money must be earned, they should take nothing for granted.
So when children come to school, it is supposed to be a place for them feel equal and happy with their friends and forget about their hard life.

You obviously don't go to an american high school

at my school there are these ******* kids who cut in the line then punch in their subsidized code and get their lunch. You can tell its subsidized because instead of a regular box they get a crappy box that their food goes into.

theyre so ungrateful for their free **** it pisses me off every time

Ungrateful?  Are they supposed to ingratiate themselves for your enjoyment, you spoiled brat?

It's food; hell, it's probably the only guaranteed meal most on that kind of a program get a day and somehow that offends you.  Maybe instead of just assuming they're easy living on government hand outs, you take a step back and go "gee, I wonder how I get most of my necessary things provided for me with hardly a blink in its direction"?

Of all the pathetic, ill-thoughtout things you've said, that has to take the cake for the stupidest.  And the most ignorant.  And most obnoxious.  And let's throw entitled on the pile, too.

Is this actually you here?
Show Image
(https://1-media-cdn.foolz.us/ffuuka/board/vp/image/1380/21/1380210906082.jpg)


they don't even have the respect to go ****ing wait at the back of the line

that's what pisses me off

So poor kids should always go last?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:26:36
God, how dare they.

You're lying when you say you're 16, aren't you?  Cause you damn sure act more like you're 4 and you see someone else get things you want and lash out in some kind of misguided jealousy.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:30:18
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:32:18
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:34:01
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:36:02
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:37:11
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...

thats what i was saying the whole ****ing time. You just distorted my words and didn't listen to them propperly. there is a lack of effective communication because you aren't listening
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:40:36
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.

And you really think that none of the fact that you're able to buy all these keyboards and even get started selling things online to fund your hobby has to do with starting out in a privileged situation?  Not that you need to feel bad or give away all your money, but seriously, show some ****ing gratitude.  Methinks it's you who needs to learn some respect.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:40:49
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.

we aren't buddies. you can drop this damilk ****. it's neither funny or original.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:41:49
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

I'm going one step further. 

What the **** do you know about life?

You're a child that acts like losing a spot in line is some kind of egregious offense.  How effortless is your life where something like that is even a blip on your radar?

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...

thats what i was saying the whole ****ing time. You just distorted my words and didn't listen to them propperly. there is a lack of effective communication because you aren't listening

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.


Or it could be you're **** at this debate thing you claim you do.  I've yet to hear one salient point to why you think children from poor families should have to do menial labor to earn a meal. 

Let's hear your thoughts on some of these "articles about governement(hic) and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc"
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 19:48:36
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...

thats what i was saying the whole ****ing time. You just distorted my words and didn't listen to them propperly. there is a lack of effective communication because you aren't listening

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/18/jack-kingston-school-lunch_n_4467711.html

Quote
WASHINGTON -- Rep. Jack Kingston (R-Ga.) wants kids to learn early in life that there's no such thing as a free lunch. To make sure they absorb that lesson, he's proposing that low-income children do some manual labor in exchange for their subsidized meals.

The idea was to instill work ethic, so thoughts??

+1

i really hate it when kids who get free lunches CUT IN THE ****ING LINE

you got that food for free, go ****ing wait in the back of the line like everyone else

Huh.  Well I'm sorry, I must be confused by the continual mention of "kids who get free lunches" right next to the complaining about "cutting in line".  My bad.

Gosh, I wish I could just learn how to listen.  Seriously, my 2 year old niece makes better arguments than you.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:02:36
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

I'm going one step further. 

What the **** do you know about life?

You're a child that acts like losing a spot in line is some kind of egregious offense.  How effortless is your life where something like that is even a blip on your radar?

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...

thats what i was saying the whole ****ing time. You just distorted my words and didn't listen to them propperly. there is a lack of effective communication because you aren't listening

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.


Or it could be you're **** at this debate thing you claim you do.  I've yet to hear one salient point to why you think children from poor families should have to do menial labor to earn a meal. 

Let's hear your thoughts on some of these "articles about governement(hic) and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc"

Compare the middle class well of family to the lower class family. To the middle class, they pay their taxes and pay for all their belongings.
Then look at the lower class. There are many reasons why they are there, but once they are there, they pay less taxes and don't pay for everything they own (ie lunch, food stamps, wellfare, etc). While some are there because they got screwed over, a vast majority are lazy and not motivated to get a job. If one is truely motivated, they can achive many goals, and getting an average paying job is pretty low on the list of lofty goals.

now to be fair to those who work for their food, those who get their food for free should also work. Food doesn't grow on trees, if even the laborers of america are lazy and slack off and think their gardening job is guarenteed, america will go to ****.

another reason why i'm pissed off about inequality at schools is one time I had to pick up trash for littering one piece of trash. My punishment for not putting one piece of trash was clean up every bit of trash in the school. Now I was a fast worker and filled up my trash bag with trash in 10 minutes. Why? Because the ground was ****ing full of trash. some stupid kid even left their art project on the ground. Now if the school truely was just they would make EVERYONE who littered pick up the trash. Using a few people as scapegoats to pick up every one else's trash is just unfair. Just like how a group of *******s cutting in line screws up everyone else's time. Its tragedy of the commons.

ultimately to make it fair, those who get free **** should earn it. Those who get unenployment money should show they're trying to get a job. Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries. those who get food stamps should show they are trying to go higher in the social ladder and earn more money to support themselves by themselves. And the best way to do this is start with the youth. Even a little work for food is crucial in making a sustainable and reliable workforce for america
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:04:06
food does grow on trees....
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:05:08
food does grow on trees....

its an analogy

processed pizza's don't grow on trees tho and that's what the school sells us
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:06:35
Quote
Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries.

LMFAO

brb going to go tell everybody to man the **** up because pacifist said so.

jesus christ, do you work for fox news?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:07:38
Quote
Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries.

LMFAO

instead of watching tv each day try to go outside and walk and get better
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:09:20
Quote
Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries.

LMFAO

instead of watching tv each day try to go outside and walk and get better

yes, because all disabilities are bettered by going outside for a walk. god, you're like.. a genius man.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Jack on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:10:30
Still at this point no one has explained what the **** cutting in line has to do with this issue!

Sure maybe some people who get free or reduced-price lunches cut, just like some people who pay -- there are simply some *******s who cut in line regardless of that. Would anyone like to tell about how cutting in line is relevant to this ridiculous idea the representative has?

No? There's nothing to say?

That's what I thought.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:11:09
One thing I noticed a few of you have said about the people who get free/discounted lunches that strikes me as odd, the fact it would seem that perhaps now depending on if you pay or get free lunch you get something different.

I realize it's been a long time since I was in school but regardless of whether you paid, got free or discounted lunch everyone ate the same exact thing.

Also when I was in school nobody wanted to get 'free' lunch and if you did you didn't tell anyone else.

But thinking back I know there were kids who wanted extra food and they would help clean up etc in order to get it because they couldn't pay, granted this was over 15yrs ago, but they had an understanding with the lunch ladies, they helped clean up the cafeteria and in return got extra milk or pudding or extra piece of fried chicken or even water melon whatever they wanted.


Also my daughter is in kindergarten and they get a bag of 'food' sent home every weekend because some kids don't have food to eat at home, but they send them home with everyone.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:13:02
Quote
Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries.

LMFAO

instead of watching tv each day try to go outside and walk and get better

yes, because all disabilities are bettered by going outside for a walk. god, you're like.. a genius man.

its an example. If you 100% physically can't move and/or can't improve your condition, sure keep on taking the help from the government.
But even if there's a chance that you can get better and stop being lazy, then do all you can to make that happen. stop being lazy and work through the pain and rise to your full potential
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Jack on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:14:00
Yeah, I was on free/reduced price lunch and they had the exact same food. I never saw any such thing like volunteering to work with the lunch ladies for extra food, but that seems like it would be different from being made to do it. If you want to do it of your own free will that's fine, that has some pride to it. But doing work because your family is too poor to afford the lunch price? Noooooo, that's not stigmatizing at ALL.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:15:17
stop generalizing and maybe, just maybe, your points will make sense.

but, you're 16. when i was 16 i also thought i knew everything.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Tym on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:15:26
The problem is pacifist, your views are too large. You seem to be one of those people who think all poor people are poor on purpose. That all people on benefits are benefit thieves. They are not.

I
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:18:40
On the disability thing, which is going off topic, most people I've seen around me who really need it can't get it because of a technicality.

One example a co-workers 26yr old daughter has some undiagnosed rare blood disorder that has left her blind and in constant pain with the only course of treatment being experimental things they have tried that have not really helped, but she can not currently get on disability (she is on a waiting list but was told it could be 1-2 yrs) because she is married and her husband works, she has a college degree and is white, and no i'm not being racist, this is basically what the case worker has told my co-worker 'unofficially'.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 20:24:08
Not all try to take advantage of the government.

But if one truely is motivated and wants to achieve better, they will work their ass off to do so. They will stop begging and instead work towards their goals. However, many are just plain lazy and won't work for what they deserve.

America was built by hard working people, and everyone with any bit of worth worked for it. Many of those at the bottom don't care and don't work. For example, in downtown, there are people who beg outside of bars asking for money. Its pretty obvious why they want the money. One time my mom gave them a dollar, and what do you know, they walked right into the bar.

It may because I am a middle class asian american and I haven't truely been dirt poor yet, but i've seen poor people. I've done volunteered at charity events and seen the poor people try to squeze out everything they can. For example, I was volunteering at a marathon giving food and water to the people who finished the race. There were multiple people who came to watch come over and ask for some of the gatorade we were handing out to the runners. Another time during lunch at a practice for a math competition, we were eating pizza outside and some people came over and tried to take some of our pizza.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: nubbinator on Thu, 19 December 2013, 21:31:23
Back to the main topic, I actually think all students should be involved in the maintenance of the school.  It would maybe instill in them more respect for the institution and manual labor.  Don't make it a thing just for those getting subsidized lunches.

Not all try to take advantage of the government.

But if one truely is motivated and wants to achieve better, they will work their ass off to do so. They will stop begging and instead work towards their goals. However, many are just plain lazy and won't work for what they deserve.

America was built by hard working people, and everyone with any bit of worth worked for it. Many of those at the bottom don't care and don't work. For example, in downtown, there are people who beg outside of bars asking for money. Its pretty obvious why they want the money. One time my mom gave them a dollar, and what do you know, they walked right into the bar.

It may because I am a middle class asian american and I haven't truely been dirt poor yet, but i've seen poor people. I've done volunteered at charity events and seen the poor people try to squeze out everything they can. For example, I was volunteering at a marathon giving food and water to the people who finished the race. There were multiple people who came to watch come over and ask for some of the gatorade we were handing out to the runners. Another time during lunch at a practice for a math competition, we were eating pizza outside and some people came over and tried to take some of our pizza.

This screams of ignorance.  The middle class is shrinking and the poor and working poor are an ever growing demographic.  Do some research on the cycle of poverty and issues like cultural and social capital and you'll also see that many of these poor people remain poor not because they're not hard working, but because they don't have the right connections, they don't have the right education, and they have cultural values and perceptions that clash with those in power.

Poverty is not something that is easy to escape.  There are many people who are working two and three minimum wage jobs just to exist.  Would you call them lazy?  I wouldn't, but they'll never make enough to get out of poverty and, for most of them, their kids won't either, nor will they have the social supports that help keep them accountable to do their school work and to learn how to maneuver in society.  There are also people who have discovered that not working actually makes them more money than working their ass off, that they can only subsist because they're on welfare and not working a job or jobs.  Don't think that poor people or people subsisting on welfare are doing so because they want to be non-contributing members of society, but do so because they have no other choice.

As for your examples of poor people being mooches, guess what, I grew up in Orange County California, an area known for dramatic divides in wealth, with the ultra-wealthy alongside the ultrapoor.  And you know what?  The wealthy can be just as big of mooches as the poor, sometimes even worse.  The difference is that they can actually afford the things they're mooching, but those poor, often people that they employ at sub-living wages, can't.

Get some perspective, do some real sociological research, and then maybe you'll have some compassion for these people and understand that they often have no choice in their circumstances.  If you really want to get pissed off about welfare, direct your anger the right direction.  Look at the welfare that the poor receive, then look at the companies that employ them, look at how they pay sub living wages, how they do tricks with hours so they don't have to pay for healthcare or other benefits, how they abuse government programs to pass off business costs to taxpayers, how they constantly fight to erode workers rights, and look at the amount of corporate welfare they receive, some of them through accounting tricks like onshoring losses and offshoring profits.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 21:44:01
Back to the main topic, I actually think all students should be involved in the maintenance of the school.  It would maybe instill in them more respect for the institution and manual labor.  Don't make it a thing just for those getting subsidized lunches.

Not all try to take advantage of the government.

But if one truely is motivated and wants to achieve better, they will work their ass off to do so. They will stop begging and instead work towards their goals. However, many are just plain lazy and won't work for what they deserve.

America was built by hard working people, and everyone with any bit of worth worked for it. Many of those at the bottom don't care and don't work. For example, in downtown, there are people who beg outside of bars asking for money. Its pretty obvious why they want the money. One time my mom gave them a dollar, and what do you know, they walked right into the bar.

It may because I am a middle class asian american and I haven't truely been dirt poor yet, but i've seen poor people. I've done volunteered at charity events and seen the poor people try to squeze out everything they can. For example, I was volunteering at a marathon giving food and water to the people who finished the race. There were multiple people who came to watch come over and ask for some of the gatorade we were handing out to the runners. Another time during lunch at a practice for a math competition, we were eating pizza outside and some people came over and tried to take some of our pizza.

This screams of ignorance.  The middle class is shrinking and the poor and working poor are an ever growing demographic.  Do some research on the cycle of poverty and issues like cultural and social capital and you'll also see that many of these poor people remain poor not because they're not hard working, but because they don't have the right connections, they don't have the right education, and they have cultural values and perceptions that clash with those in power.

Poverty is not something that is easy to escape.  There are many people who are working two and three minimum wage jobs just to exist.  Would you call them lazy?  I wouldn't, but they'll never make enough to get out of poverty and, for most of them, their kids won't either, nor will they have the social supports that help keep them accountable to do their school work and to learn how to maneuver in society.  There are also people who have discovered that not working actually makes them more money than working their ass off, that they can only subsist because they're on welfare and not working a job or jobs.  Don't think that poor people or people subsisting on welfare are doing so because they want to be non-contributing members of society, but do so because they have no other choice.

As for your examples of poor people being mooches, guess what, I grew up in Orange County California, an area known for dramatic divides in wealth, with the ultra-wealthy alongside the ultrapoor.  And you know what?  The wealthy can be just as big of mooches as the poor, sometimes even worse.  The difference is that they can actually afford the things they're mooching, but those poor, often people that they employ at sub-living wages, can't.

Get some perspective, do some real sociological research, and then maybe you'll have some compassion for these people and understand that they often have no choice in their circumstances.  If you really want to get pissed off about welfare, direct your anger the right direction.  Look at the welfare that the poor receive, then look at the companies that employ them, look at how they pay sub living wages, how they do tricks with hours so they don't have to pay for healthcare or other benefits, how they abuse government programs to pass off business costs to taxpayers, how they constantly fight to erode workers rights, and look at the amount of corporate welfare they receive, some of them through accounting tricks like onshoring losses and offshoring profits.

While I do think he should do more research, I think you basically described what he was trying to put across before. At his school, kids who clearly can afford lunch are mooching off taxes and overall behaving in a rude manner, and he's mad.

I do think the economy and labor is in a very poor state at the moment, and that needs to change. Before that happens, though, we do need to do some things about people below our country's poverty line that doesn't involve giving people who apply free money to keep them above water. I feel like this is calling for a higher minimum wage and a minimum amount of working hours, but there's probably some sort of barrier from keeping that from happening and/or I'm just really stupid. My guess is that larger corporations would lobby the **** out of congressmen and women to keep that from passing, because it means less profits and no more 3-gazillion-to-1 CEO pay:Average grunt pay average that corporations have worked so hard to achieve.

I find it really sad that nobody is doing anything to stabilize our economy besides injecting money and a few government-run low-paying jobs and instead they're focusing on making sure we lose our constitutional rights.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: CPTBadAss on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:01:10
also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.

Guess that money TJ gave you with when you wanted a QazPad and your free Yihua station mean nothing to you huh? I guess being a self made entrepreneur means you get to conveniently forget stuff. And you don't have to be grateful.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: eth0s on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:11:04
they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

I'm going one step further. 

What the **** do you know about life?

You're a child that acts like losing a spot in line is some kind of egregious offense.  How effortless is your life where something like that is even a blip on your radar?

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

So you hate people who cut in line?  Cool, me too!  Now if only you could communicate effectively...

thats what i was saying the whole ****ing time. You just distorted my words and didn't listen to them propperly. there is a lack of effective communication because you aren't listening

they shouldn't go last

they should wait at the back of the ****ing line then move forward like everybody else

them getting their food for free makes it even worse because instead of thinking about the people who pay more taxes so they can get their subsidized food they just cut in front of them

what the **** do you know about taxes?

you're a 16 year old troll that has mommy and daddy to fall back on. you're obviously living a pretty good life that you can pick up a keyboard hobby.

you know nothing about me damilk

I've done quite a lot of research on politics for my debate work. I've read quite a lot of articles about governement and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc

also every penny of my keyboard hobby has been paid by myself. I initially got my $60 for my first board by working odd jobs. I've been able to afford every other board from then on by selling **** in classifieds.


Or it could be you're **** at this debate thing you claim you do.  I've yet to hear one salient point to why you think children from poor families should have to do menial labor to earn a meal. 

Let's hear your thoughts on some of these "articles about governement(hic) and perception and many talked about how taxes were affecting the budget etc"

Compare the middle class well of family to the lower class family. To the middle class, they pay their taxes and pay for all their belongings.
Then look at the lower class. There are many reasons why they are there, but once they are there, they pay less taxes and don't pay for everything they own (ie lunch, food stamps, wellfare, etc). While some are there because they got screwed over, a vast majority are lazy and not motivated to get a job. If one is truely motivated, they can achive many goals, and getting an average paying job is pretty low on the list of lofty goals.

now to be fair to those who work for their food, those who get their food for free should also work. Food doesn't grow on trees, if even the laborers of america are lazy and slack off and think their gardening job is guarenteed, america will go to ****.

another reason why i'm pissed off about inequality at schools is one time I had to pick up trash for littering one piece of trash. My punishment for not putting one piece of trash was clean up every bit of trash in the school. Now I was a fast worker and filled up my trash bag with trash in 10 minutes. Why? Because the ground was ****ing full of trash. some stupid kid even left their art project on the ground. Now if the school truely was just they would make EVERYONE who littered pick up the trash. Using a few people as scapegoats to pick up every one else's trash is just unfair. Just like how a group of *******s cutting in line screws up everyone else's time. Its tragedy of the commons.

ultimately to make it fair, those who get free **** should earn it. Those who get unenployment money should show they're trying to get a job. Those with disabilites should show that they are trying to improve their injuries. those who get food stamps should show they are trying to go higher in the social ladder and earn more money to support themselves by themselves. And the best way to do this is start with the youth. Even a little work for food is crucial in making a sustainable and reliable workforce for america

I agree 100%!  You're a smart young man.  Lazy people should work.

I lost both my legs fighting for you in Afghanistan.  I came back and my VA disability claim was delayed for five years.  Which isn't bad, I've heard of seven and eight year claims.  Anywho, I finally got some prosthetic legs, but they don't fit, and cause me major blisters and sores on my stumps.  Those legs got recalled because some malcontent filed a class action lawsuit.  I don't understand those people.  I turned down the check they sent me.  If I didn't earn the money, I'm sure not going to take it for having no legs, and getting defective prosthetics.  Think of that medical supply company's profit margin.  It must have really been shrunk somewhat from that lawsuit. 

Well, anyha, now I have no legs, so I pull myself over the ground on a little sled/ wagon.  Because I have no legs, I couldn't get a job, and my credit went bad.  (I'm embarrassed to say missed a few electric bills.)  Well, now I can't get a regular middle class job because my credit is bad, and no big corporation will even interview me.  Plus, I have no legs.  But I'm not lazy.  So a friend got me a minimum wage job with Walmart as a sewage cleaner.  They like me at work because I can get into really small sewer pipes and root them out.  I dunno if you've ever been inside a Walmart sewer pipe, but they can get really backed up with compacted fecal matter, so I clean that out, by hand.

Anyhee, I'm not in a union, because that's Marxist, so I make sub-union wages.  Also I have no vacation days, sick days, or health care.  Walmart makes us clock in for 40 hours, but only pays us for 30.  Which is cool, because the Walton family that owns Walmart are not rich enough yet.  I'm helping them get over that $50 billion hump.  And I am proud to say that I pay taxes every paycheck.  In fact, I pay more taxes as a percentage of my total income, I pay about 34%, than either Mitt Romney (15%) who is a rich man, or Warren Buffett (18%) who is the richest man in the world.

My daughter went blind at birth from medical malpractice, but I didn't bring no damn lawsuit, cuz that's against the doctors.  Doctors are great and wise men, and people like us should never question them.  So anyheehoo, my daughter is 5 now, and I applied for the subsidized lunch program at her public school, and my daughter started getting free meals.  And you know, I had to spank her little bottom, 'cuz I found out that she's so hungry at lunchtime (she never has any breakfast because I can't afford it, and only has dinner 5 nights a week which is usually just ketchup and noodles but I call is 'sghetti).  Well anyway, I guess she was so hungry one day, that she actually pushed her way into the front of the line and cut in front of a well-fed older boy.  I couldn't believe her cheekiness!  That little blind girl, cutting in line, because she was hungry!  Outrageous.  I'm glad that older boy complained to the school principal, and that the principal called me at work.  I had to climb out the sewer pipe to get the phone, and Walmart docked my pay for the time, but I was glad I got that call.  Now I make sure my blind, hungry daughter gets in the back of the line where she belongs. 
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:24:56
and thus i guess capitolism sucks and is the root cause of all of our suffereing

(http://i.imgur.com/ZXA7E3G.png)
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:29:31
*snip*
*snip*
*snip
*snip*

*snip*
*snip*

*snip*
*snip*
*snip*
*snip*
*many snips today*

I agree 100%!  You're a smart young man.  Lazy people should work.

I lost both my legs fighting for you in Afghanistan.  I came back and my VA disability claim was delayed for five years.  Which isn't bad, I've heard of seven and eight year claims.  Anywho, I finally got some prosthetic legs, but they don't fit, and cause me major blisters and sores on my stumps.  Those legs got recalled because some malcontent filed a class action lawsuit.  I don't understand those people.  I turned down the check they sent me.  If I didn't earn the money, I'm sure not going to take it for having no legs, and getting defective prosthetics.  Think of that medical supply company's profit margin.  It must have really been shrunk somewhat from that lawsuit. 

Well, anyha, now I have no legs, so I pull myself over the ground on a little sled/ wagon.  Because I have no legs, I couldn't get a job, and my credit went bad.  (I'm embarrassed to say missed a few electric bills.)  Well, now I can't get a regular middle class job because my credit is bad, and no big corporation will even interview me.  Plus, I have no legs.  But I'm not lazy.  So a friend got me a minimum wage job with Walmart as a sewage cleaner.  They like me at work because I can get into really small sewer pipes and root them out.  I dunno if you've ever been inside a Walmart sewer pipe, but they can get really backed up with compacted fecal matter, so I clean that out, by hand.

Anyhee, I'm not in a union, because that's Marxist, so I make sub-union wages.  Also I have no vacation days, sick days, or health care.  Walmart makes us clock in for 40 hours, but only pays us for 30.  Which is cool, because the Walton family that owns Walmart are not rich enough yet.  I'm helping them get over that $50 billion hump.  And I am proud to say that I pay taxes every paycheck.  In fact, I pay more taxes as a percentage of my total income, I pay about 34%, than either Mitt Romney (15%) who is a rich man, or Warren Buffett (18%) who is the richest man in the world.

My daughter went blind at birth from medical malpractice, but I didn't bring no damn lawsuit, cuz that's against the doctors.  Doctors are great and wise men, and people like us should never question them.  So anyheehoo, my daughter is 5 now, and I applied for the subsidized lunch program at her public school, and my daughter started getting free meals.  And you know, I had to spank her little bottom, 'cuz I found out that she's so hungry at lunchtime (she never has any breakfast because I can't afford it, and only has dinner 5 nights a week which is usually just ketchup and noodles but I call is 'sghetti).  Well anyway, I guess she was so hungry one day, that she actually pushed her way into the front of the line and cut in front of a well-fed older boy.  I couldn't believe her cheekiness!  That little blind girl, cutting in line, because she was hungry!  Outrageous.  I'm glad that older boy complained to the school principal, and that the principal called me at work.  I had to climb out the sewer pipe to get the phone, and Walmart docked my pay for the time, but I was glad I got that call.  Now I make sure my blind, hungry daughter gets in the back of the line where she belongs.

*sniff* Beautiful. Legitimately brought a tear to my eye.

But yeah. Pacifist, you need to get a reality check. Not all poor people are poor because they spent all their money on drugs. They could come from a farm family who barely makes ends meet, or they could be descendants of a man who invested in a good idea that flopped, bankrupting him. It really stacks, so today's children in poor families will likely stay poor, and it's not their fault. That's not to say they have to stay poor, but they may feel hopeless or they can't afford college, so they have to take minimum wage jobs, and the cycle continues. The only feasible way for them to get out of the cycle is if they get a scholarship.

That said, I don't live in a poor neighborhood, and I go to a fairly rich school, so my experience in this field is somewhat limited. However, to generalize based on your personal experience is pretty shallow and short-sighted. I get pretty mad when people cut in front of me for lunch, but it's really pretty petty when you think about it, complaining that your lunch got delayed a few seconds because somebody wanted to be first.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:31:57
your lunch got delayed a few seconds because somebody wanted to be first.

I agree with everything else. But its not a few seconds. It usually adds up to 10-15 minutes. One time I waited in line for 20 mins cus a bunch of ***gots kept on cutting in line

Mod edit: user was warned for this post
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: demik on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:32:47
your lunch got delayed a few seconds because somebody wanted to be first.

I agree with everything else. But its not a few seconds. It usually adds up to 10-15 minutes. One time I waited in line for 20 mins cus a bunch of ***gots kept on cutting in line

homophobic also?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:35:52
your lunch got delayed a few seconds because somebody wanted to be first.

I agree with everything else. But its not a few seconds. It usually adds up to 10-15 minutes. One time I waited in line for 20 mins cus a bunch of ***gots kept on cutting in line

Deal with it. Bring a book to read or use your phone in line if it's so regular. It really is extremely petty (not that I'm siding with the people who are ignoring the line, that's just rude) to complain about having to wait to be fed when you eat 3 meals a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, except when you don't want to eat. If it really bothers you, then wake up a half hour earlier and bring your own lunch. No more lines. If you can't wake up earlier, then you should probably examine your schedule.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:41:56
inb4 "i didn't say all, I said most"

It doesn't really pain me to say, eth0s, that what you said eclipses anything my dull brain could have thought of in the same time.

You know what bugs me about this "oh, they have "nice" clothes, that means they're mooching and can afford food"? It's like they've never been in a community where people do nice things for one another

Like, for example, do you know that mom/dad bought those jordans (or whatever,) with gov't money or is that perhaps from what they scrapped together mowing lawns, raking leaves and other child appropriate jobs?  Maybe the family, including extended, chipped in to get said kid some nice **** so he didn't feel like a piece of crap when he looked at his friends/peers?  Or even worse, maybe the family has a supportive church with a strong charity foundation that helps kids get nice things?  But I guess all these things mean that mom/dad are mooching off the good of others, including the government, instead of "working hard" and the kid should starve.

I'm purposefully avoiding your punishment whine because I see it for what it is, a QQ from a privileged youth that can't imagine being held responsible for his actions because he was born into a comfortable life.  Picking up trash is for poor people to earn their lunches, right?

your lunch got delayed a few seconds because somebody wanted to be first.

I agree with everything else. But its not a few seconds. It usually adds up to 10-15 minutes. One time I waited in line for 20 mins cus a bunch of ***gots kept on cutting in line

Oh ****, 20 minutes!  Don't they understand your well-fed metabolism needs to be maintained on a strict schedule?!  How dare they impede you with their lack of money and glut of gnawing hunger.

I will say thanks, though.  I mean clearly, you've been afraid to tell me straight up, but you feel wrong for having taken the gift of cash I gave you for something nice.  I'll gladly take back that hand out since you "work hard for what you have".  I mean, other than your meals, clothes, room, utilities, insurance and other non-superfluous costs that your parents pay for you.  Bluntly, and has been repeated ad nauseaum, your privilege has blinded you to other people's suffering.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Thu, 19 December 2013, 22:48:06
This thread is ridiculously depressing.

I feel we should get back on topic and stop harassing Pacifist for being so short-sighted.

I believe that if the lesser-endowed kids have to work for free lunch, the school system should say "**** it" and have everybody get free lunch and work for it.

Or, they could find another way to give them work ethic without bringing up mandatory community service, though that may have to be implemented as much as I hate the idea.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Thu, 19 December 2013, 23:03:53
This thread is ridiculously depressing.

I feel we should get back on topic and stop harassing Pacifist for being so short-sighted.

I believe that if the lesser-endowed kids have to work for free lunch, the school system should say "**** it" and have everybody get free lunch and work for it.

Or, they could find another way to give them work ethic without bringing up mandatory community service, though that may have to be implemented as much as I hate the idea.

You mean like through classes that teach important skills such as shop, home ec, ag co-op, auto shop?  All kids "work" for their meals.  Their job is to learn how to be a productive grown up as best they can when they're, you know, grown.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: eth0s on Thu, 19 December 2013, 23:04:37
and thus i guess capitolism sucks and is the root cause of all of our suffereing

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ZXA7E3G.png)


hmm, wow, where do i begin? 

"Capitolism" is a word to describe partisan grid-lock, and the fact that market forces are subsumed to the will of politicians in Wash, D.C.

"Capitalism" is an economic system whereby private individuals are allowed to own the means of production in order to extract profits at the expense of workers.  Each worker is individually exploited as he is never paid the full value of his labor, with the difference being siphoned off as "profits" by the owners of the firm.

First:  Your block quote is ridiculously inaccurate and racist.  Please don't cite phony "articles" containing fictitious figures, it undermines your argument.  And it makes you look like a fool for believing it to be true.

Second:  The argument contained within the phony article is fallacious.  More specifically it employs the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" fallacy.  Originally the name of this fallacy came from German:  das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten.  Also known as the False Dilemma Fallacy.  This fallacy represents the argument that if something is imperfect, then there is no way to improve it, and the whole thing must be scrapped.  Which is of course, not true.  Fallacious reasoning will earn you an F in your debate class.  Please do not try it. 

Third:  Adam Smith, the intellectual and spiritual father of American free market capitalism in his seminal work, his magnus opus, The Wealth of Nations, warned us all that while free market capitalism is the most efficient means of organizing capital and labor, it must nevertheless be rigorously and vigilantly regulated either by a very strong government or by a very active tort bar, or both.  Smith cautioned that free market capitalism will be forever in jeopardy of being ruined by the stupidity and greed of the capitalists themselves.  Smith warned that the goal of every businessman was to control the market and fix prices, through monopoly, oligopoly, collusion and criminal enterprise.  Smith further warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and the government against consumers, with the former scheming to influence the politics and legislation of the latter.  Which is exactly what is happening right now.

Fourth:  Plato the Greek philosopher, foretold in his book The Republic, written in 380 B.C., that democracy, as a form of government, is vulnerable to being superseded.  The enemy of democracy is not fascism (as most conservatives try to tell you), instead the enemy of democracy is plutocracy:  rule by a class of elites.  Plato warned that the natural trend in every democracy is for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of a few, which leads to an entrenched class of rich people, who then take control of the government, and who will eventually eliminate democratic rule, since they fear that the will of the people is contrary to their sustained wealth and power.  Again, this is happening right now.

Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Thu, 19 December 2013, 23:15:10
and thus i guess capitolism sucks and is the root cause of all of our suffereing

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ZXA7E3G.png)


hmm, wow, where do i begin? 

"Capitolism" is a word to describe partisan grid-lock, and the fact that market forces are subsumed to the will of politicians in Wash, D.C.

"Capitalism" is an economic system whereby private individuals are allowed to own the means of production in order to extract profits at the expense of workers.  Each worker is individually exploited as he is never paid the full value of his labor, with the difference being siphoned off as "profits" by the owners of the firm.

First:  Your block quote is ridiculously inaccurate and racist.  Please don't cite phony "articles" containing fictitious figures, it undermines your argument.  And it makes you look like a fool for believing it to be true.

Second:  The argument contained within the phony article is fallacious.  More specifically it employs the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" fallacy.  Originally the name of this fallacy came from German:  das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten.  Also known as the False Dilemma Fallacy.  This fallacy represents the argument that if something is imperfect, then there is no way to improve it, and the whole thing must be scrapped.  Which is of course, not true.  Fallacious reasoning will earn you an F in your debate class.  Please do not try it. 

Third:  Adam Smith, the intellectual and spiritual father of American free market capitalism in his seminal work, his magnus opus, The Wealth of Nations, warned us all that while free market capitalism is the most efficient means of organizing capital and labor, it must nevertheless be rigorously and vigilantly regulated either by a very strong government or by a very active tort bar, or both.  Smith cautioned that free market capitalism will be forever in jeopardy of being ruined by the stupidity and greed of the capitalists themselves.  Smith warned that the goal of every businessman was to control the market and fix prices, through monopoly, oligopoly, collusion and criminal enterprise.  Smith further warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and the government against consumers, with the former scheming to influence the politics and legislation of the latter.  Which is exactly what is happening right now.

Fourth:  Plato the Greek philosopher, foretold in his book The Republic, written in 380 B.C., that democracy, as a form of government, is vulnerable to being superseded.  The enemy of democracy is not fascism (as most conservatives try to tell you), instead the enemy of democracy is plutocracy:  rule by a class of elites.  Plato warned that the natural trend in every democracy is for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of a few, which leads to an entrenched class of rich people, who then take control of the government, and who will eventually eliminate democratic rule, since they fear that the will of the people is contrary to their sustained wealth and power.  Again, this is happening right now.

i can get way more evidence for free trade bad and cap bad

http://openev.debatecoaches.org/bin/download/2013/Gonzaga/Capitalism%20Kritik%20-%20Gonzaga%202013.docx

this file is full of evidence saying cap is bad
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: keymaster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 23:17:32
This thread lowers the quality of the forum. That being said, eth0s knows what's up.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: HoffmanMyster on Thu, 19 December 2013, 23:32:26
Oh god, I go to watch one simple movie and I miss all this fun.

First, I want to thank you, Pacifist.  I have never had a signature before this, but I think this might just make the cut.  It's still under review, but damnit it's just so good.
Food doesn't grow on trees

Second, stop being an entitled prick.

Third, listen to eth0s, he is a smart man.

Fourth, please learn about things before you talk about them.  You don't have to be right or be super smart, but at least be able to talk competently.  Please.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: tjcaustin on Fri, 20 December 2013, 00:47:10
and thus i guess capitolism sucks and is the root cause of all of our suffereing

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ZXA7E3G.png)


hmm, wow, where do i begin? 

"Capitolism" is a word to describe partisan grid-lock, and the fact that market forces are subsumed to the will of politicians in Wash, D.C.

"Capitalism" is an economic system whereby private individuals are allowed to own the means of production in order to extract profits at the expense of workers.  Each worker is individually exploited as he is never paid the full value of his labor, with the difference being siphoned off as "profits" by the owners of the firm.

First:  Your block quote is ridiculously inaccurate and racist.  Please don't cite phony "articles" containing fictitious figures, it undermines your argument.  And it makes you look like a fool for believing it to be true.

Second:  The argument contained within the phony article is fallacious.  More specifically it employs the "throw the baby out with the bathwater" fallacy.  Originally the name of this fallacy came from German:  das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten.  Also known as the False Dilemma Fallacy.  This fallacy represents the argument that if something is imperfect, then there is no way to improve it, and the whole thing must be scrapped.  Which is of course, not true.  Fallacious reasoning will earn you an F in your debate class.  Please do not try it. 

Third:  Adam Smith, the intellectual and spiritual father of American free market capitalism in his seminal work, his magnus opus, The Wealth of Nations, warned us all that while free market capitalism is the most efficient means of organizing capital and labor, it must nevertheless be rigorously and vigilantly regulated either by a very strong government or by a very active tort bar, or both.  Smith cautioned that free market capitalism will be forever in jeopardy of being ruined by the stupidity and greed of the capitalists themselves.  Smith warned that the goal of every businessman was to control the market and fix prices, through monopoly, oligopoly, collusion and criminal enterprise.  Smith further warned that a business-dominated political system would allow a conspiracy of businesses and the government against consumers, with the former scheming to influence the politics and legislation of the latter.  Which is exactly what is happening right now.

Fourth:  Plato the Greek philosopher, foretold in his book The Republic, written in 380 B.C., that democracy, as a form of government, is vulnerable to being superseded.  The enemy of democracy is not fascism (as most conservatives try to tell you), instead the enemy of democracy is plutocracy:  rule by a class of elites.  Plato warned that the natural trend in every democracy is for wealth to be concentrated in the hands of a few, which leads to an entrenched class of rich people, who then take control of the government, and who will eventually eliminate democratic rule, since they fear that the will of the people is contrary to their sustained wealth and power.  Again, this is happening right now.

i can get way more evidence for free trade bad and cap bad

http://openev.debatecoaches.org/bin/download/2013/Gonzaga/Capitalism%20Kritik%20-%20Gonzaga%202013.docx

this file is full of evidence saying cap is bad

"Hey guize, someone else did a bunch of research for a debate competition where they had to be the negative opinion, I'm just going to parrot it as irrevocable fact now.  Like everything else I say ever."

Do you actually learn independent thought and fact processing in your debate class, cause it doesn't feel like it.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: berserkfan on Fri, 20 December 2013, 00:52:20
making the kids work for their food is a good idea. Instill values of hard work, but don't humiliate them. Problem is, it's hard to achieve in practice. And I can imagine the rich kids sneering at the poor kids doing the cleaning up. That doesn't make for a friendly, healthy, balanced school environment.

One way to do this could be to have a school duty roster where everyone pitches in to help clean the school. INCLUDING THE RICH KIDS. The difference is that if you're on free lunches, you have many more spots on the roster. If you have a disciplinary problem, you also have more spots. But everyone gets his hands dirty at least once a month.

In any case in many Asian schools it's normal for schoolkids to clean the classroom as part of their routines. It's Americans who are not used to having such basic civic things like responsibility for one's environment drilled into them. I remember my first year in an American college, and I was really shocked at how filthy and disgusting Americans were in private life. Some did not throw out the trash ALL SEMESTER, accumulating literally an entire closet filled with pizza crusts and food boxes. Others did not do laundry a single time, and got their mom's station wagon to take back 4 freaking months of dirty laundry in one shot. One guy bought a huge box of utensils from costco or sam's place, can't remember which one. He never did any washing, and threw away METAL FORKS AND KNIVES after every meal.

My second year in college, I was praying for thanksgiving. You know why? Because at thanksgiving, my fat American roommate would take home his unwashed laundry! After thanksgiving things get better because it's cold enough for the laundry to not stink, until spring came by again and the usual stench filled the air.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: iri on Fri, 20 December 2013, 02:01:04
I lost both my legs fighting for you in Afghanistan.  I came back and my VA disability claim was delayed for five years.  Which isn't bad, I've heard of seven and eight year claims.  Anywho, I finally got some prosthetic legs, but they don't fit, and cause me major blisters and sores on my stumps.
no problem. according to pacifist, you can easily grow yourself a pair of new legs.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: rowdy on Fri, 20 December 2013, 04:33:14
TANSTAAFL!
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: iri on Fri, 20 December 2013, 04:50:16
It's Americans who are not used to having such basic civic things like responsibility for one's environment drilled into them. I remember my first year in an American college, and I was really shocked at how filthy and disgusting Americans were in private life. Some did not throw out the trash ALL SEMESTER, accumulating literally an entire closet filled with pizza crusts and food boxes. Others did not do laundry a single time, and got their mom's station wagon to take back 4 freaking months of dirty laundry in one shot. One guy bought a huge box of utensils from costco or sam's place, can't remember which one. He never did any washing, and threw away METAL FORKS AND KNIVES after every meal.

My second year in college, I was praying for thanksgiving. You know why? Because at thanksgiving, my fat American roommate would take home his unwashed laundry! After thanksgiving things get better because it's cold enough for the laundry to not stink, until spring came by again and the usual stench filled the air.
it seems i'd rather pursue my master degree in a european university.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: SpAmRaY on Fri, 20 December 2013, 07:11:56
I lost both my legs fighting for you in Afghanistan.  I came back and my VA disability claim was delayed for five years.  Which isn't bad, I've heard of seven and eight year claims.  Anywho, I finally got some prosthetic legs, but they don't fit, and cause me major blisters and sores on my stumps.
no problem. according to pacifist, you can easily grow yourself a pair of new legs.

That puts a whole new perspective on the phrase 'grow a pair'

This thread is ridiculously depressing.

I feel we should get back on topic and stop harassing Pacifist for being so short-sighted.

I believe that if the lesser-endowed kids have to work for free lunch, the school system should say "**** it" and have everybody get free lunch and work for it.

Or, they could find another way to give them work ethic without bringing up mandatory community service, though that may have to be implemented as much as I hate the idea.

You mean like through classes that teach important skills such as shop, home ec, ag co-op, auto shop?  All kids "work" for their meals.  Their job is to learn how to be a productive grown up as best they can when they're, you know, grown.

Sadly many schools I'm familiar with no longer have shop class, home economics, agriculture, auto shop etc.....mostly because those classes were considered too dangerous AND get this...they didn't help kids get into college..... ::)
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Linkbane on Fri, 20 December 2013, 08:08:45
Are you ****ing kidding me? We're going to humiliate these kids because through no fault of their own they can't afford the normal price for a school lunch? And what in the hell does cutting in line have to do with anything? I can't believe anyone thinks this is a good idea. This is surely going to create a massive class division in the school. As it is, it's a fairly subtle thing for a student to get a free or reduced price lunch and it need not be a prominent indicator of status. But if we have a certain group of kids being made to perform labor at the school for their meals, this will create a clear and simple way for the others to set them apart, no doubt as some kind of subordinate class.

What makes this genius think there's some kind of myth of a free lunch? Does he think these kids don't go home and know about what difficulty there is in keeping the family fed, if they're at the poverty line? Does he think they don't know they're getting a free lunch precisely because it's sometimes difficult to be able to afford one and they're on the wrong side of that line? I got free lunches in school for a time, and I didn't go around thinking **** was going to fall into my lap all my life. I don't know what got into this guy's head that makes him think he needs to teach anyone a lesson, but he needs to put the god damn Heinlein down and go do something useful.

It's been thousands of years since humans have created societies on this planet. It's far, far too late for people to not be able to get food for themselves if they are weak, poor, unable to work. There's nobody more disgusting than someone rich without sympathy to those less fortunate than themselves.

This policy disgusts me. Someone has to live in crap conditions and work everyday for things that other people have easily, so you should make them work so they can eat? Unreal.

its going to get backlash cuz for the most part the people who get free lunches are lazy and don't work for their food.

I'm assuming you would know, you pathetic little wanker. Paying $5 of your parents' hard earned money must be really difficult for you, good thing that we can be nice to people far less fortunate and hoping to afford a $10 keyboard rather than $250 by making them work at a school instead of learning.

*Mod Edit: User was warned for this post.

+1 on this. People always cut in line and get free food. They all where $400 shoes and $100 hats. And forgot about g-shock for 'swag' I use my watch for keeping time lol. All those watches are not synced with the time and are 4 hours off average. I pay for my lunch, $20 a week. Get cookies and whatever they serve. MAKE EM WORK FOR FOOD!

Or what, make their parents pay for their food so they don't have to work? Let's just increase the humiliation of the poor we ascribe to in the US by making schoolchildren work for food!
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: kmiller8 on Fri, 20 December 2013, 09:03:32
ahhh... I miss the days of being 16 and knowing everything, thank god I wasn't on the internet.

Seriously though Pacifist, I tried telling you a few days ago to just shut up sometimes. I didn't say that out of hatred or because you're annoying as ****. I did that as a warning for you, to prevent something like this from happening. Oh well...

I'd like to say "I hope you learned your lesson" but as is PAINFULLY obvious, you just can't learn or take any sort of advice from anyone actually trying to help you. Unless it's some random article you've googled.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: hoggy on Fri, 20 December 2013, 09:39:40
Is it just me that thinks this is a cost cutting exercise?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Fri, 20 December 2013, 09:53:12
and thus i guess capitolism sucks and is the root cause of all of our suffereing

Show Image
(http://i.imgur.com/ZXA7E3G.png)


How the **** did you manage to miss-spell capitalism when it's right on the picture you uploaded?
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: inteli722 on Fri, 20 December 2013, 12:47:39
I lost both my legs fighting for you in Afghanistan.  I came back and my VA disability claim was delayed for five years.  Which isn't bad, I've heard of seven and eight year claims.  Anywho, I finally got some prosthetic legs, but they don't fit, and cause me major blisters and sores on my stumps.
no problem. according to pacifist, you can easily grow yourself a pair of new legs.

That puts a whole new perspective on the phrase 'grow a pair'

This thread is ridiculously depressing.

I feel we should get back on topic and stop harassing Pacifist for being so short-sighted.

I believe that if the lesser-endowed kids have to work for free lunch, the school system should say "**** it" and have everybody get free lunch and work for it.

Or, they could find another way to give them work ethic without bringing up mandatory community service, though that may have to be implemented as much as I hate the idea.

You mean like through classes that teach important skills such as shop, home ec, ag co-op, auto shop?  All kids "work" for their meals.  Their job is to learn how to be a productive grown up as best they can when they're, you know, grown.

Sadly many schools I'm familiar with no longer have shop class, home economics, agriculture, auto shop etc.....mostly because those classes were considered too dangerous AND get this...they didn't help kids get into college..... ::)

See, My school only has Home Ec and FFA (Agriculture) from what I know of. Surprisingly, FFA is rather popular.

As for the college thing: I hate how schools are pushing college admission. Not everyone is cut out for college, and not everyone will make it. The schools need to man up and keep kids realistic.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Linkbane on Fri, 20 December 2013, 13:09:35
ahhh... I miss the days of being 16 and knowing everything, thank god I wasn't on the internet.

Seriously though Pacifist, I tried telling you a few days ago to just shut up sometimes. I didn't say that out of hatred or because you're annoying as ****. I did that as a warning for you, to prevent something like this from happening. Oh well...

I'd like to say "I hope you learned your lesson" but as is PAINFULLY obvious, you just can't learn or take any sort of advice from anyone actually trying to help you. Unless it's some random article you've googled.

As another sixteen-year-old, I regret that Pacifist cannot help but degrade our image further.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: paicrai on Fri, 20 December 2013, 13:16:53
ahhh... I miss the days of being 16 and knowing everything, thank god I wasn't on the internet.

Seriously though Pacifist, I tried telling you a few days ago to just shut up sometimes. I didn't say that out of hatred or because you're annoying as ****. I did that as a warning for you, to prevent something like this from happening. Oh well...

I'd like to say "I hope you learned your lesson" but as is PAINFULLY obvious, you just can't learn or take any sort of advice from anyone actually trying to help you. Unless it's some random article you've googled.

As another sixteen-year-old, I regret that Pacifist cannot help but degrade our image further.

He should change his name. Pacifist doesn't quite fit.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Malphas on Fri, 20 December 2013, 14:19:58
the good thing is all the rich people don't care about going against this because it doesn't affect their kids

while the poor people without much pushing power have to work for their food which is just

You are a douche.
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Pacifist on Sat, 21 December 2013, 02:49:54
then wake up a half hour earlier and bring your own lunch. No more lines. If you can't wake up earlier, then you should probably examine your schedule.

it doesn't work like that. Everybody is released for lunch at the same time. So those who are lazy just cut in the line that just grew because they were too lazy to walk faster
Title: Re: No such thing as a free lunch...
Post by: Photoelectric on Sat, 21 December 2013, 03:21:19
Locked for now, as this discussion has basically turned into a personal insult contest.